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[proposition]

You know, I don't understand why people are complaining about it not being stealthy, because the stealth in this game was stupid. They give you a silenced tranquiliser and let you buy more ammo for it from the menu. That's ludicrously stupid gameplay design, it practically ruins the stealth element of the game.

 

[I should be doing hw]

You know, I don't understand why people are complaining about it not being stealthy, because the stealth in this game was stupid. They give you a silenced tranquiliser and let you buy more ammo for it from the menu. That's ludicrously stupid gameplay design, it practically ruins the stealth element of the game.

Options are not stupid game design. Was Kojima in your living room with a gin to your head making you use them? No, nobody is forcing you to do anything. It can be as stealthy as you want it or as actiony as you want it. Bad game design? Hardly.

 

[freethought]

You know, I don't understand why people are complaining about it not being stealthy, because the stealth in this game was stupid. They give you a silenced tranquiliser and let you buy more ammo for it from the menu. That's ludicrously stupid gameplay design, it practically ruins the stealth element of the game.

There's more to the stealth side of it than simply tranquilising everybody. But if you have no self control then play it in Extreme. Enemies are more aware and you can't buy non-lethal ammo.

 

[proposition]

Options are not stupid game design. Was Kojima in your living room with a gin to your head making you use them? No, nobody is forcing you to do anything. It can be as stealthy as you want it or as actiony as you want it. Bad game design? Hardly.

I forget, could you even pick up tranq bullets in the world, or was the only way to get them from buying them?

There's more to the stealth side of it than simply tranquilising everybody. But if you have no self control then play it in Extreme. Enemies are more aware and you can't buy non-lethal ammo.

That's kinda cool, but I have no interest in playing the game again. Plus I don't own a PS3 any more, so I can't.

 

[I should be doing hw]

I forget, could you even pick up tranq bullets in the world, or was the only way to get them from buying them?

I don't remember either, but I don't see what difference it makes you don't have to use it at all.

 

[DCharlie]

The first two acts of MGS4 were two of the best bits of gameplay i've played this gen. Thought it was excellent, really enjoyed it, loved the first boss and, at this point, the story isn't too far left of silly.

Then things just get progressively worse and worse and worse. The gameplay becomes much less open, the plot/story -frankly- shits itself, and the characters and cutscene become borderline "comedy". The less said about the wrap up ending the better.

I want someone to swoop in and save the gameplay from the first two acts and pad it out into a full game.

 

[proposition]

I don't remember either, but I don't see what difference it makes you don't have to use it at all.

Because the game shouldn't give me something and then make me choose not to use it to avoid broken mechanics? A good stealth game rations your options. Splinter Cell would be dumb if it just gave you unlimited airfoil rounds, Thief would be dumb if it gave you unlimited gas arrows.

Kojima knew that for the previous MGS games, but apparently forgot it here.

 

[PetriP-TNT]

I don't really get the "MSG4 is a rambo game" point. Sure, you do get shitload of weapons but no-one is forcing you to use them. I never kill anyone on my playthroughs in MGS-series and number 4 wasn't any different.

 

[I should be doing hw]

Because the game shouldn't give me something and then make me choose not to use it to avoid broken mechanics? A good stealth game rations your options. Splinter Cell would be dumb if it just gave you unlimited airfoil rounds, Thief would be dumb if it gave you unlimited gas arrows.

Kojima knew that for the previous MGS games, but apparently forgot it here.

I don't see what your problem is here. You say the tranq gun ruins any stealth elements in the game, so I would have thought the logical solution would be not to use it. You can't fully blame the game for being broken when you yourself are actively breaking it. Do you advocate glitching in multiplayer games because it's there too? I wouldn't think so.

 

[proposition]

I don't see what your problem is here. You say the tranq gun ruins any stealth elements in the game, so I would have thought the logical solution would be not to use it. You can't fully blame the game for being broken when you yourself are actively breaking it. Do you advocate glitching in multiplayer games because it's there too? I wouldn't think so.

I'm not saying the tranq gun breaks the game, I'm saying that buying more ammo from the menu is what breaks it. It basically gives you unlimited ammo.

 

[longdi]

i hope mgs5 will be a better game by cutting away half the sappy cutscenes and have a connected world. mgs4 looks like it is gripping with new technology and the pressure to please the convoluted mgs2 plot fanboys.

 

[JB1981]

I don't really get the "MSG4 is a rambo game" point. Sure, you do get shitload of weapons but no-one is forcing you to use them. I never kill anyone on my playthroughs in MGS-series and number 4 wasn't any different.

I can't stealth my way through more than a few sections before I'm caught or get bored and go on a massive killing spree. I think I just suck at the game or have no patience.

 

[I should be doing hw]

I'm not saying the tranq gun breaks the game, I'm saying that buying more ammo from the menu is what breaks it. It basically gives you unlimited ammo.

Gasp, don't buy it then. Rely on pickups. I'm pretty sure you could for that gun, I remember finding tranq rounds for the rifle at least. Even then, just because the option is there are you thinking "I must buy as much ammo as possible for this gun to break the game" because you are obviously not having fun playing that way anyway.

 

[JB1981]

I think the main problem is, that the game is stuck in last gen mechanics. When you got fast flowing games like uncharted and Gears of War, MGS4 really does feel like ass.

pretty much

 

[XGoldenboyX]

Stop complaining for nothing. Apreciate what you get on your plate.

 

[proposition]

Gasp, don't buy it then. Rely on pickups. I'm pretty sure you could for that gun, I remember finding tranq rounds for the rifle at least. Even then, just because the option is there are you thinking "I must buy as much ammo as possible for this gun to break the game" because you are obviously not having fun playing that way anyway.

And all I'm saying is that the menu shop is a bad gameplay decision that puts unecessary choice into the player's hands. Suddenly, instead of being challenged by the tools given to me in the game I'm having to make the decision to ignore the shop in order to play the game in a way that I find fun. Do you not see why I think this is bad design?

 

[I should be doing hw]

Stop complaining for nothing. Apreciate what you get on your plate.

Although I can empathise with those because it is a $60 plate, essentially this.

 

[Snuggles]

Drebin and his monkey are cool, though, it's worth it.

 

[I should be doing hw]

And all I'm saying is that the menu shop is a bad gameplay decision that puts unecessary choice into the player's hands. Suddenly, instead of being challenged by the tools given to me in the game I'm having to make the decision to ignore the shop in order to play the game in a way that I find fun. Do you not see why I think this is bad design?

This is where it becomes subjective, where you see this as bad game dreign because you simply can't ignore it, for your own enjoyments sake..., others who are sick of games where you run out of ammo for your favorite weapon would say it's a great feature. Don't get me wrong, I'm not telling you how to play the game but ultimately you are complaining about something you are doing to yourself.

Anyways this thread is boring and repetive now, I'm out.

 

[Mama Robotnik]

3 > 2 > 1 > 4

MGS4 is good, 1 is great, 2 is fascinating and 3 is a divine piece of work.

I don't dislike four, I'm glad I played it, but it doesn't reach the strengths of its predecessors.

 

[proposition]

This is where it becomes subjective, where you see this as bad game dreign because you simply can't ignore it, for your own enjoyments sake..., others who are sick of games where you run out of ammo for your favorite weapon would say it's a great feature. Don't get me wrong, I'm not telling you how to play the game but ultimately you are complaining about something you are doing to yourself.

Anyways this thread is boring and repetive now, I'm out.

If you're talking about options, the better option would have been to be able to turn the store off.

Also gotta say 3>1>>>>>>>>>>>>>2>>>>>>>>>>>>4

I think its very telling that most of the time when people talk about MGS2 they're talking about the tanker chapter.

 

[XGoldenboyX]

Everywone is so spoiled with some of the gratest entertainment this decade and still find ways to nitpick and complain.

Just appreciate the hard work developers have to go through to give you the entertainment you get.

 

[BeeDog]

I loved the game when I played through it two times around its release. Guess I need to revisit it some day and see how it stacks up nowadays. I still find the 3rd game to be a bit better than this, but at the same time it might also be nostalgia that's talking...

Anyways, I'm not really eager to read 5 pages of MGS4 blasting, since I actually liked the game :lol but I have one question (don't kill me); does a lot of the hate come from the fact that the story's wank? That might explain why I really like the game, since I've found the series' story to be utter shit from MGS2 and onward (even the stupid over-the-top elements in MGS3 got to me). I've suppressed that shit, which might've made me tolerant to this game (and MGS3)... or?

 

[revolverjgw]

MGS4 is ridiculous and stupid, but that just makes me like it even more

 

[Gestahl]

Everywone is so spoiled with some of the gratest entertainment this decade and still find ways to nitpick and complain.

Just appreciate the hard work developers have to go through to give you the entertainment you get.

:lol :lol :lol

Yeah I really appreciate all that work they do to get my money. Just reading that post gives me a headache from a consumer's point of view.

 

[hamchan]

Everywone is so spoiled with some of the gratest entertainment this decade and still find ways to nitpick and complain.

Just appreciate the hard work developers have to go through to give you the entertainment you get.

You do realize we pay for this entertainment right?

 

[I should be doing hw]

If you're talking about options, the better option would have been to be able to turn the store off.

A. You have the ability to do that yourself by not using it. What's the differnce between not using it and having the option to turn it off? It's not even a matter of willpower if you aren't having any fun by using it anyway. Fucking hell people are spoiled or lazy or both.

B. As already mentioned, it's called Extreme mode try it. Or not idc.

 

[Won]

Anyways, I'm not really eager to read 5 pages of MGS4 blasting, since I actually liked the game :lol but I have one question (don't kill me); does a lot of the hate come from the fact that the story's wank? That might explain why I really like the game, since I've found the series' story to be utter shit from MGS2 and onward (even the stupid over-the-top elements in MGS3 got to me). I've suppressed that shit, which might've made me tolerant to this game (and MGS3)... or?

The hate comes from the fact that it has excellent gameplay for ~2 acts and then throws it out of the window for the other 2/3 of the game.

Just appreciate the hard work developers have to go through to give you the entertainment you get.

Oh, we had enough time appreciating their hard work during all the install screens. Don't worry.

 

[proposition]

A. You have the ability to do that yourself by not using it. What's the differnce between not using it and having the option to turn it off? It's not even a matter of willpower if you aren't having any fun by using it anyway. Fucking hell people are spoiled or lazy or both.

B. As already mentioned, it's called Extreme mode try it. Or not idc.

Actually, yeah, I see what you mean. OK then, the better option would be to not have it at all. It's still bad design. :V

 

[Snuggles]

I feel differently the most people when it comes to the acts. I enjoy them all, but I prefer the emphasis on stealth in acts 3 & 4 over the scripted action of 1 & 2. Using emotion bullets on the soldiers of 1 & 2 is good for a laugh, though.

 

[JasoNsider]

At this point I don't know what's more disappointing - MGS4 itself or the people who thoroughly claim it to be an awesome game. I got behind MGS3 in a big way. Even voted it in as Game of the Year with lots of other GAFers. Then to watch GAFers phone in MGS4 as a game of the year just makes me think we were no longer playing the same game.

This game had an insanely high budget production and some great production values that stem from that. But the storytelling...my god. It showed such little restraint or skill of the craft that I was flabbergasted. I was hoping MGS2 was silliness we'd move forward from. I was wrong.

Someone described it best by saying it's really the worst elements of anime all thrown into a stew. The convoluted story, the bad pacing, the non-existent rising action....it's all there. If you want to see razor sharp dialog, pacing, characterization, and world-building then look no further than something like Uncharted 2. MGS4 is a mess and has almost reached into the past and destroyed all those amazing memories I have of previous entries.

The funny thing is that the high-level hook of the story had such potential for world-class dramatics, too. "Is he going to die? What would he do if these were his last days on earth?" What played out though was some of the most amateurish writing structure I've seen. Such a shame :/

And yeah, wow, this too:

The problem was not even the sub-standard quality of the writing, it was Kojima's idiocy in believing that he could retroactively make people care about something by explaining in a two minute spoken word sequence why the crazy person who attacked and tried to kill us was actually pitiable.

 

[freethought]

And all I'm saying is that the menu shop is a bad gameplay decision that puts unecessary choice into the player's hands. Suddenly, instead of being challenged by the tools given to me in the game I'm having to make the decision to ignore the shop in order to play the game in a way that I find fun. Do you not see why I think this is bad design?

Kojima gave you a mode that took away this 'unnecessary choice'. That you neglected to take advantage of it is on you, not the game.

 

[BobsRevenge]

I don't really get the "MSG4 is a rambo game" point. Sure, you do get shitload of weapons but no-one is forcing you to use them. I never kill anyone on my playthroughs in MGS-series and number 4 wasn't any different.

After I got the M60 in MGS4 I basically turned into Rambo.

But I thought it was awesome and enjoyed it a lot.

 

[Jason's Ultimatum]

-MGS3 was superior to the others because deep and great connection between The Boss and Naked Snake.

-The atmosphere of the Cold War setting was amazing.

-Art style CANNOT be surpassed. The jungle environments were beautiful. The other environments weren't bad either.

-Gameplay definately was better due to a more stealth route the player had to take.

-Boss fights were superior. The End is perhaps one THE greatest boss fights ever.

-Music was definately on par with MGS2.


If MGS5 is made, please make the game like MGS3.

 

[brandonh83]

It really isn't. You just follow the guy. That's it. Oh theres this part where you have to listen to figure which one is him out of a group of 4.

You follow him, but there are so many obstacles you have to get through. That's all I'm saying. It's not just simply following him. There's so much stuff going on while you're following him. That's like saying all you do in Cuboid is roll a cube around, as if there's nothing else to think about.

 

[Foliorum Viridum]

4 is by far the best gameplay wise, but the story was a huge letdown, which ultimately makes it the worst in the series for me as the narrative was always the biggest draw.

2 > 3 > 1 > 4 for me.

 

[Marcos]

I lol'd

Spoiler

about mgs4 being the second best game of this gen

Spoiler

but it is

 

[Snuggles]

If MGS5 is made, please make the game like MGS3.

Well, it sort of is....just not on the right system.

I love 'em all, but for me it's 2>3>4>1
1 at last might seem like blasphemy, but I was very late to playing it and by the time I did it felt a little outdated, still great though.

 

[Johann]

If MGS5 is made, please make the game like MGS3.

They should also include co-op play in it. I hope it's on a portable since I can play it on the GO!

 

[bud]

-Art style CANNOT be surpassed. The jungle environments were beautiful. The other environments weren't bad either.

the jungle in mgs3 actually looks way better in mgs4. what the fuck. mgs4's graphics on the whole are disappointing. not once did i go ''whoa'' when playing it. i guess the huge cutscene in europe (act 3, iirc) looked pretty good, but that's about it.

 

[JB1981]

the jungle in mgs3 actually looks way better in mgs4. what the fuck. mgs4's graphics on the whole are disappointing. not once did i go ''whoa'' when playing it. i guess the huge cutscene in europe (act 3, iirc) looked pretty good, but that's about it.

agreed. mgs 4 isn't even of the best looking titles on the ps3.

 

[Foxtastical]

It's sort of sad watching some people so hard to defend stuff.

I thought I really, really was liking MGS4 when I was playing it, but in time I stopped lying to myself and figured out that MGS4 for me might be the biggest disappointment of this generation so far.

 

[StoOgE]

FWIW,

The entire series is crap.

The first one was sort of fun because it was different. The stupid storyline also got a free pass, because story telling in video games was a pretty new concept. It was one of the first "big budget action movie" type of games to come along that tried to blend action with story and everyone was impressed at the new idea.

The story in all of them is vacuous shit that only a group of stoned Junior High kids could find deep or meaningful in any way whatsoever. It's like the last 5 minutes of Matrix Reloaded.. except it lasts for 8 hours and the payoff is a 30 minute long codec conversation with your girlfriend.

The stealth action which was once extremely fun and innovative has been so far surpassed by the Splinter Cell franchise that it makes MGS look like Pitfall in comparison to Mario Galaxy.

The shooting mechanics have improved vastly, but as you pointed out that has only served to even further gimp the stealth aspects of the game.

 

[Scrow]

to be completely honest.... i played MGS4 for 10 minutes, got completely bored and never played it again. not much of a loss imo.

 

[Red Blaster]

The stealth action which was once extremely fun and innovative has been so far surpassed by the Splinter Cell franchise that it makes MGS look like Pitfall in comparison to Mario Galaxy.

The shooting mechanics have improved vastly, but as you pointed out that has only served to even further gimp the stealth aspects of the game.

Except Splinter Cell and MGS couldn't be more different. The first two MGS games shared similarities in the corridor stealth foundation, however those were both released before Splinter Cell debuted. MGS3 and MGS4 almost exclusively feature outdoor stealth and camouflage use which is nothing at all like the shadow hiding in Splinter Cell.

Also anyone who dings the gameplay in series needs to shut the fuck up and play MGS2: Substance. The 300+ VR Missions demonstrate how polished the gameplay mechanics were and how they worked incredibly well in bite-sized arcade-style missions.

 

[nolookjones]

for me its 3 > 1 > 4 > 2

 

[theluma]

Best game on PS3.

 

[TheSeks]

Actually, yeah, I see what you mean. OK then, the better option would be to not have it at all. It's still bad design. :V

Uh, why? Because you want to buy ammo and break the game?

Spoiler

You can get near unlimited ammo by backtracking to areas with common ammo drops in MGS1/2/3

, is that bad design as well?

>>MGS3 love-in<<

Not mention that

Spoiler

it has a proper fucking ending, something Kojima seemed to forget in 1/2 and 4 with the overdramatic shit

.

Oh, and it was a campy 1960 Bond spoof, and the 1960 Bond fan in me was pleased.

 

[John Dunbar]

to be completely honest.... i played MGS4 for 10 minutes, got completely bored and never played it again. not much of a loss imo.

How can you be sure it's not much of a loss after just 10 minutes?

Note that I have not played MGS4, but 10 minutes just seems like an awfully little time. For example, I gave Bioshock at least 2 hours before deciding it sucked and never touched again.

 

[sonicmj1]

What part of the gameplay is extraordinary, exactly? Which part of MGS3 tops the tanker in MGS2 as far as well-designed, satisfying game segments go?

Which part of MGS3 actually improved on ideas presented in MGS1 and refined in MGS2? The camo was fucking stupid and absolutely worthless because you could get by without worrying about it, and the eating/medical portion of the game was not only unnecessary but ultimately annoying. On top of all of this, the game wasn't even the technical match of Sons of Liberty, framerate/visuals-wise.

Metal Gear Solid 3 is a good game. It is also the only game in the Solid series that Kojima didn't even try to do something above and beyond what he'd already accomplished, and was satisfied to provide simply a saccharine-doused love story that answered none of the questions he posed in the previous games. I love the game, and the story, but it was a lateral move from 2, which for many developers is fine but for the developer who brought us MGS1 and MGS2 was actually a step down.

And hamchan? You need to actually present why MGS3's gameplay is good. I stated fact: Nothing was improved upon play-wise. It's a lateral sequel to MGS2, with lesser technical merit, and an elementarily straightforward story, bundled with poor new "features" (camo and eating/self medical treatment). There is nothing special (read: good) about MGS3's gameplay that was not present in MGS2. The only reason people adore it so much is because they love The Boss and feel teary eyed for Big Boss. Basically, you and everyone else got your romantic-comedy Meg Ryan heartstrings tugged and somehow this snowed you into thinking that the game was so much better than Sons of Liberty, even though the tanker segment in MGS2 is ten times the game Snake Eater is by itself.

Regardless, I'm done arguing this point. Like I said, the vast majority at this point thinks MGS2 and MGS4 are terrible, and revisionist history GAF is even starting to pretend that MGS1 is magically a shitty game now. Even though all of you bought all of them, played them to completion, and looked forward to the next entry with open, wanting, throbbing, lusting arms.

I'll never understand the unabashed adoration that MGS3 gets. It's a good game, but it does nothing spectacularly. The gameplay and tech is worse than 2, and the story is worse than 1. How this combination could even possibly equal the best game in the series boggles the living fuck out of my fragile, realistic mind.

Relatedly, I love MGS4. It's too short gameplay-wise, but it answers all the questions posed in 1 and 2, and even a few posed in 3, and the gameplay during the segments you're actually in control of was amazing when it released. Do I wish it was longer, play-wise? Absolutely. Am I disappointed with it? Not in the least. What was there was worth the MSRP and the time invested.

What part of the Tanker chapter was actually so incredible? Because I must have missed it.

While I'll admit it took me some time to appreciate MGS2's gameplay, I still don't find it all that strong at just about any point, at least not compared to MGS3. It's still pretty good, but the narrow hallways leave me feeling more restricted than anything else. It's also filled with some truly terrible gameplay scenarios, like the hallway shootout in the Tanker, both C4 puzzles, and the entire swimming section. The game has an underwater escort mission. Come on.

I like MGS3 because of the level of control it gave you in terms of stealth. Instead of being boxed into industrial environments, the player could move through wide open jungles. Instead of spending time observing cones on a radar, the player could do more because of the camo system, and create opportunities that wouldn't otherwise exist. CQC made things so much less awkward in close-quarters situations. Removing the radar forced careful movement and observation in a way that only occasionally exists in MGS2.

MGS3 was my first Metal Gear, and going from that to MGS2 was a really awkward experience, because 2 forced me to unlearn so much of what I'd learned before, and play in a much more mechanical way. I could not have played MGS3 the way I did without the camo system, and the game gave me room to thrive through that. It made the stealth scenarios feel more natural than the earlier games where stealth was very binary.

I'm not sure if I'm doing a great job of articulating this, but I really don't know where you're coming from, because I don't see the majesty in MGS2's gameplay that much. Even when I learned enough about how to play that I wasn't blundering through it, it still seemed much stiffer to me than what MGS3 brought to the table, and what MGS4 elaborated and improved upon. On top of that, MGS3's set-pieces and boss encounters tower far, far above anything MGS2 had.

Maybe it's just a matter of perspective. You see MGS2 as a major leap over MGS1, and find MGS3 to be a lateral step. For me, approaching MGS3 first, it seems a huge step over MGS2, which is depressingly similar to 1 despite the very significant addition of shooting in first-person.