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[Nowise10]

can women be cucks

 

[Derwind]

Voting against one's own interest in the pursuit of bigotry and sticking it to the "other" has always been a thing, Trump just made it more visible than usual.

 

[Autoignition]

A friend and I were talking about this shortly after the election. She speculated that our ex-coworker probably voted for Trump, which shocked me to even consider, since I felt like she was rational enough to not vote a villain into office.

My friend said, "I'll bet any amount of money that her whiteness was more important to her than her womanness."

It's haunted me to think about ever since then.

 

[D i Z]

This posits that all women are in the same boat, the same Borg-like entity that benefits or doesn't benefit from the same things. In reality there are a lot of women, specifically white women, who are doing quite fine with Trump as president, and likely stand to gain. A lot of white women know full and well that they benefit from the type of society Trump (and many/most republicans) envision, and that their children will benefit from it. A good deal of that 53% of white women who voted for Trump voted for their best interests. That's a fact.

I tend to find complaints about identity politics to be weak, but if there's a criticism it's this. It doesn't matter how many white men fill Trump's cabinet, or visit the White House, or do anything else. He could have had the most "diverse" cabinet ever, and the ideologies would be the exact same. The same greed, disdain for the poor, criminality, white supremacy - white women are more than capable of exhibiting all of those traits. As are some non-whites (Ben Carson comes to mind). And those are the type of people Trump surrounds himself with.

Except when he screwed them on equal pay. The one thing that white women use to stick it to white men in the work place.

 

[Glass Rebel]

The point is that none of us (men) should be passing judgement on what "better" even means for a woman.

I guess we cannot agree that someone bragging about sexually assaulting women isn't good for women.

Apparently that's too much judgement on our part.

 

[the_darkness]

Hes not part of the democratic party?

Im a bit clueless so if Im saying something pleade let me know. I. May have misinterpreted the OP.

The problem is you're not saying anything.

 

[mjp2417]

The point is that none of us (men) should be passing judgement on what "better" even means for a woman.

If I tell my girlfriend to put down the loaded gun that she's pointing at her head it's not "passing judgement on what 'better' even means for a woman." It's being a functional human being.

 

[excelsiorlef]

If she's talking about the general, then that's fine...

What do you think she was talking about?

Of course she was talking about the General.

 

[Nowise10]

The point is that none of us (men) should be passing judgement on what "better" even means for a woman.

#WOKE

 

[JCHandsom]

What do you think she was talking about?

Of course she was talking about the General.

Naw she was talking about the secret election Sanders won

 

[sorathecrow]

Whatever they voted for is "their own voice." Their vote is their voice, and their vote didn't choose your side. Their "voice" chose something else. Is it not pretty insulting to women to act like all women that don't vote your direction are somehow betraying their gender? Who elected you to decide who spoke for all women like some kind of mouthpiece for the hive?

 

[WaffleTaco]

Michelle should have just called them what they are, Gender Traitors.

 

[ChamplooJones]

No lies detected.

 

[Battersea Power Station]

If you argue like that, that implies there are opposing political paths that are equally beneficial to the social progress of our society. I'd argue that women that are in favor of pro-life are indirectly advocating against the social progress of their sex. Ergo, women that vote Republican to uphold for instance the abortion ban do not only not strive for the social progress of women, they hinder it through the power of their vote.

I'm fine with the logic of it.

I'm not fine with the sentiment of telling a woman "vote for Clinton; it's better for women." During the primaries I was also uncomfortable with white people telling a black person "vote for Sanders; it's better for black people." I don't think it's the place of people outside that community to make that judgement. And even people inside don't speak for everyone -- only for themselves -- but to me at least it's more acceptable. I'm more than willing to admit I might be wrong. It is just a feeling after all.

 

[zerokoolpsx]

She isn't wrong.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

The legions of Sanders supporters telling black voters he’d be better for us and calling us low-information when some of us didn’t vote for him in the primaries isn’t comparable to asserting that voting for the Democratic candidate would probably be better for women than the Republican candidate. If we’re not going to be honest about what Republican governance means for women’s rights than I dunno what you actually want to discuss

 

[Monocle]

100% on point as usual.

Internalized sexism is a hell of a drug. Some women believe, on a very deep subconscious level, that it's wrong for a woman to reach higher and demand more, to be as assertive and demanding as their male counterparts.

I've seen this in older members of my own family; a demeaning deep-seated conviction that women are more limited and should ask for less than men. There's no better way for men to prove their own inferiority than to cut women down because they're threatened, pent up, angry or whatever else.

 

[Queen Vulpix]

I only didn't actually vote for Hillary because I was sick on election day and I live in one of the safest blue states there is (My state and only one other were the only 2 states in which every single county went for Hilary). Otherwise she was my candidate and if I lived in a state that even had a chance to swing trump I would have made sure no matter how crap I felt to vote. Will be going to vote regardless of if I'm sick or not next year though.

 

[mjp2417]

I'm fine with the logic of it.

I'm not fine with the sentiment of telling a woman "vote for Clinton; it's better for women." During the primaries I was also uncomfortable with white people telling a black person "vote for Sanders; it's better for black people."

The first example is trivially true. The second is not and is subject to debate within the community. There's a profound difference.

 

[danm999]

Boy makes me miss Michelle Obama.

Also what if I took this fairly straightforward quote from her and made it a vehicle for MY unrelated bullshit.

 

[theCalamity]

So was it alright if a woman voted for Jill Stein or no?

 

[Battersea Power Station]

Edit:.

 

[D i Z]

Whatever they voted for is "their own voice." Their vote is their voice, and their vote didn't choose your side. Their "voice" chose something else. Is it not pretty insulting to women to act like all women that don't vote your direction are somehow betraying their gender? Who elected you to decide who spoke for all women like some kind of mouthpiece for the hive?

Oh this one shouldn't be overlooked.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

So was it alright if a woman voted for Jill Stein or no?

No one should have voted for Jill Stein

 

[JCHandsom]

No one should have voted for Jill Stein

Yup. She was a bad candidate in her own right, even ignoring Trump.

 

[theCalamity]

No one should have voted for Jill Stein

What about not voting for President at all or writing in Bernie?

 

[JCHandsom]

What about not voting for President at all or writing in Bernie?

What about voting for Hillary on a piece of paper and then throwing it in the trash?

 

[D i Z]

So was it alright if a woman voted for Jill Stein or no?

Jill Stein wasn't in it for anyone but herself. You aren't stumping anyone just because she has a vagina.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

What about not voting for President at all or writing in Bernie?

I’d rather stay on topic actually.

 

[mjp2417]

Whatever they voted for is "their own voice." Their vote is their voice, and their vote didn't choose your side. Their "voice" chose something else. Is it not pretty insulting to women to act like all women that don't vote your direction are somehow betraying their gender? Who elected you to decide who spoke for all women like some kind of mouthpiece for the hive?

makes u think

 

[JCHandsom]

makes u think

 

[sorathecrow]

trivially true.

How, exactly. Because she's: 1. a democrat, and 2. a woman? Nothing HC has done has ever come across to me that she cares more about women (as a group) than any other politician. I guess if you just assume hard-line that democrat policies are better for women, ergo HC is better for women, that would make sense to you. But clearly a lot of women don't think that way--perhaps they don't so willingly equate HC's politics with female empowerment. Or perhaps other issues they had with her outweighed any goodwill her stances on gender politics might have..ahem, engendered.

 

[theCalamity]

I'd rather stay on topic actually.

The quote says voting against Hillary. If you write in someone, isn't that voting against her? That's pretty on-topic.

 

[Neuromancer]

"The Trumps are coming"

Chilling.

 

[Monocle]

Whatever they voted for is "their own voice." Their vote is their voice, and their vote didn't choose your side. Their "voice" chose something else. Is it not pretty insulting to women to act like all women that don't vote your direction are somehow betraying their gender? Who elected you to decide who spoke for all women like some kind of mouthpiece for the hive?

Yeah, how is it acting against your own voice as a woman to vote for a noted sexist, sexual assaulter, and philanderer???

Indeed, it is sexist NOT to vote for a man who has a long and documented history of treating women like sex objects.

If pussies weren't meant for grabbing, then why did god place them at the average man's hand level?

 

[mjp2417]

How, exactly.

She's not a serial sexual predator.

 

[shinra-bansho]

Thread has nothing to do with the primary. Stop relitigating the stupid primary.

 

[danm999]

The full quote makes it exceedingly clear what she is talking about

"Any woman who voted against Hillary Clinton voted against their own voice," she said at the Inbound 2017 conference in Boston, according to video from inside the event.

"What does it mean for us as women that we look at those two candidates, as women, and many of us said, that guy, he's better for me, his voice is more true to me," Obama said. "Well, to me that just says you don't like your voice. You like the thing you're told to like."

 

[Aaron]

How, exactly. Because she's: 1. a democrat, and 2. a woman? Nothing HC has done has ever come across to me that she cares more about women (as a group) than any other politician. I guess if you just assume hard-line that democrat policies are better for women, ergo HC is better for women, that would make sense to you. But clearly a lot of women don't think that way--perhaps they don't so willingly equate HC's politics with female empowerment. Or perhaps other issues they had with her outweighed any goodwill her stances on gender politics might have..ahem, engendered.

So it’s better to vote for a candidate who treats women as objects and conquests? What issues could you have to supersede that which Trump actually supports?

 

[sorathecrow]

Yeah, how is it acting against your own voice as a woman to vote for a noted sexist, sexual assaulter, and philanderer???

Well, let's think about it a bit. For one, I'm pretty sure Bill Clinton hasn't exactly been a paragon of chivalry towards women, but has HC ever spoken out against him? Divorced him? No, because of politics. People see that, and they hate it about her. They see it as fake. Anyone else in her situation would have cut him loose a long time ago, but she suffers with him for the sake of her career. So you have a scumbag family in the Clintons versus a scumbag douche who talks a big game when he thinks the mics are off.

Okay, so if both sides appear pretty shady to both people, what does it come down to in their minds? Well, it might be that women thought Trump was addressing their concerns better--that of their economic situation, a need for jobs, lower taxes, a pushback against what they may perceive as failed policies from the previous administration, etc. HC, on the other hand, was essentially promising more of the same--good enough for a large number of people, clearly, but not enough to win her the election.

 

[Kenai]

How, exactly. Because she's: 1. a democrat, and 2. a woman? Nothing HC has done has ever come across to me that she cares more about women (as a group) than any other politician. I guess if you just assume hard-line that democrat policies are better for women, ergo HC is better for women, that would make sense to you. But clearly a lot of women don't think that way--perhaps they don't so willingly equate HC's politics with female empowerment. Or perhaps other issues they had with her outweighed any goodwill her stances on gender politics might have..ahem, engendered.

How can you even say this in regards to a man who says the things Trump says and does the things Trump does on a near daily basis as if they are even remotely equivalent (p*ssy grabbing ect)? This just seems intellectually dishonest.

And yes, democratic policies are factually better for women.

I'm not trying to dog pile but I feel like if people were anywhere near half as hard on Trump as they were on Hillary this convo wouldn't be happening right now.

 

[JCHandsom]

Okay, so if both sides appear pretty shady to both people

 

[sorathecrow]

gif

Look, if you step out of this bubble and talk to people out there, you'd understand that people really don't like the Clintons. I get it, that grabbing women by the unmentionables quote ad nauseum, but an offhand comment like that by a jerk was apparently not enough to outweigh people's genuine dislike, or at least apathy towards, Hillary as a candidate. I know it seems crazy to you, but that seems to be the case.

 

[theCalamity]

Jill Stein wasn't in it for anyone but herself. You aren't stumping anyone just because she has a vagina.

People said that Hillary wasn't in it for anyone but herself, as well.

But fine. What if a woman voted for the Libertarian candidate or a write-in? Because that's voting against Hillary. Are they voting against their voice? Or is it just voting for Trump?

 

[pigeon]

Look, if you step out of this bubble and talk to people out there, you'd understand that people really don't like the Clintons. I get it, that grabbing women by the unmentionables quote ad nauseum, but an offhand comment like that by a jerk was apparently not enough to outweigh people's genuine dislike, or at least apathy towards, Hillary as a candidate. I know it seems crazy to you, but that seems to be the case.

Alternately, lots of Americans are racists and sexists, or st least so immersed and surrounded by racism and sexism that electing a rapist white supremacist was not a super big deal to them.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

Look, if you step out of this bubble and talk to people out there, you'd understand that people really don't like the Clintons. I get it, that grabbing women by the unmentionables quote ad nauseum, but an offhand comment like that by a jerk was apparently not enough to outweigh people's genuine dislike, or at least apathy towards, Hillary as a candidate. I know it seems crazy to you, but that seems to be the case.

Tired of this “bubble” shit. I and other posters here are well aware of the hatred people have for the Clintons, for abortion, for change, all that shit. We just don’t excuse or handwave it.

 

[Pai Pai Master]

Mostly because the white keeps trying to kill the black

I don't think truer words have ever been spoken on this forum.

 

[Glass Rebel]

People said that Hillary wasn't in it for anyone but herself, as well.

But fine. What if a woman voted for the Libertarian candidate or a write-in? Because that's voting against Hillary. Are they voting against their voice? Or is it just voting for Trump?

Oh screw your what ifs. What is even the point of these questions when it's clear as sky what she was talking about?

 

[sorathecrow]

Alternately, lots of Americans are racists and sexists, or st least so immersed and surrounded by racism and sexism that electing a rapist white supremacist was not a super big deal to them.

But maybe it would do you some good to not just automatically assume everyone opposed to you is either A. mustache-twirlingly evil, or B. stupid and in need of re-education.

 

[Massive Duck. C.M.]

But maybe it would do you some good to not just automatically assume everyone opposed to you is either A. mustache-twirlingly evil, or B. stupid and in need of re-education.

Then get to re-educating your friends and family instead of complaining to us