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Michigan House passes "license to discriminate" bill, LGBT rights bill dead

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ivysaur12

Banned
http://www.battlecreekenquirer.com/story/news/local/2014/12/04/michigan-religious-freedom-bill-moves-house/19892103/

LANSING – A bill providing protections for people with sincerely held religious beliefs passed out of the House Judiciary committee on a straight party line vote Thursday morning and is expected to get a vote in the full House later today or early next week.

Speaker of the House Jase Bolger, R-Marshall, who sponsored the bill, said the measure will do none of the horrible things opponents will claim but merely protect people and their beliefs and practice of religion.

He cited several examples of protections, from the baker who doesn't want to provide a wedding cake to same-sex marriage couple to the Jewish mother who doesn't want an autopsy on her son who died in a car crash. Both cited religious beliefs as reasons in their cases.

"This is not a license to discriminate," Bolger said.

But opponents said that's exactly what the Religious Freedom Restoration Act is, especially since a companion bill that would have expanded Michigan's civil rights acts to the LGBT community was declared dead by Bolger after a committee couldn't get enough votes to move the bills to the full House on Wednesday.

"I'm sad and I think it's a shame that the Elliott Larsen path was closed yesterday," Bolger said. "But this bill should be pursued."

This bill is fundamentally similar to similar bills, such as the one in Arizona, that ended up getting vetoed, or the one signed in Mississippi.

Now, for the inevitable poster who will say, well, if the bill was really going to discriminate against anyone, why wouldn't they just say that they were discriminating them in the bill itself? This is an absurd argument because animus can no longer be codified in law by a brazenness that says that "anyone can refuse to serve gay people because they're icky." We're already seeing the demise of gay marriage bills -- which never actually explicitly mention gay people in their text -- even though they exclusive target gay people. Laws such as the Poll Tax never actually mentioned black people -- and while that is a far more nefarious bill than the one in this OP, it's an example of animus being applied in a way that doesn't include mustache-twirling evil of saying "I HATE BLACK PEOPLE" in the text of the law.

Similarly here, this is not to protect Muslims other unliked religious minorities. This is specifically happening now, at this time, because bakeries, wedding photographers, and venues that serve everyone else are turning away gay couples. While Michigan's public accommodation law to protect LGBT people failed (the Elliott Larsen bill in the OP), this would create a situation where anyone could refuse service to a gay couple or gay person and cite religious beliefs. Imagine if you owned a restaurant and were able to turn away black people because you didn't like them. We decided in the 1960s that this was not okay, and I'm of the opinion that the same laws should apply to gay people. We shouldn't deny service to gay people because they're gay or in a gay relationship.

Similarly, trying to make a semantic argument that refusing to serve a "gay marriage" is somehow different than serving "gay people" is problematic. Refusing to bake a cake for an interracial marriage because you're against black people marrying white people is an animus rooted in racism, just as these arguments have an animus rooted in homophobia.

That's why I called this bill what its true purpose is in the title. This isn't about religious freedom -- it's about animus in the guise of religious freedom and treating some different than others on the basis of their sexual orientation.

The MI House passed this 59-50. The MI Senate is 26 Republicans, 12 Democrats. The governor, a Republican, said he would've signed the LGBT rights bill for employment, housing and has not commented on the bill that passed. Or at least, I can't find anything on it.
 

Seth C

Member
I sincerely hope all the black business owners in Michigan find their spirituality and don't welcome white business.

I know if I were starting a company no politicians would be allowed in my doors.
 

ponpo

( ≖‿≖)
For this bill, if you want to deny someone something based on religious reasons, do you have to prove that the religion supports that somehow?
 

kess

Member
Michigan and Ohio are still red on "that" map. Wisconsin's been pretty piss poor on this too, needing the courts to force the issue. Get with it Midwest
 
im not understanding how this bill is legal if your business isnt a religious establishment? even IF your religious beliefs compelled you to have a prejudice towards a particular group, how does a personal religious belief trump prior laws that ban business owners from discriminating people?

this bill literally is given people with prejudice the ability to exercise those views under the thin veil of "religious beliefs". i also fail to understand how religious beliefs are an acceptable precursor for practicing bigotry.
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
I bet gay guys sincerely believe they are attracted to other men
 
For this bill, if you want to deny someone something based on religious reasons, do you have to prove that the religion supports that somehow?

What's an accepted religion here too? Can I just make my own religion/rules and then follow them fuckers be damned?
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
What's an accepted religion here too? Can I just make my own religion/rules and then follow them fuckers be damned?

Literally anything that is "sincerely held." This is why they keep using that term - it is wording from a supreme court ruling. You can't limit it to any particular religion without violating the establishment and free exercise clauses.

The chance that these laws would ever hold up, even in front of the current Supreme Court, seems low. But apparently this is what the GOP constituency wants.
 
Literally anything that is "sincerely held." This is why they keep using that term - it is wording from a supreme court ruling. You can't limit it to any particular religion without violating the establishment and free exercise clauses.

The chance that these laws would ever hold up, even in front of the current Supreme Court, seems low. But apparently this is what the GOP constituency wants.

Let's start a GAF cult in Michigan?
 

ivysaur12

Banned
It's so odd when such a solidly BLUE state elects people who pass shit like this.

Michigan has its gubernatorial elections in midterms which has complicated a Democrat trying to win election against a Republican incumbent. Also, Republicans have held the Michigan state Senate for over two decades. Their House has gone back and forth.
 

Xiaoki

Member
Maybe some Islamic owned businesses will use this to deny service, but I think we all know this is a Christian only law.

Also, I hate this state. Corn and idiots as far as the eye can see.
 
Gay couples should go around finding the businesses that would take advantage of the bill and not serve LGBT peeps, then make a list for the internet to see of all the businesses that will not serve homosexuals.
 
If this is anything like the texas bill, then it is way too open ended. The texas bill basically lets you do anything you or a company wants if it is religious motivated.

...which would make terrorism legal?
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
The thing is though, a lot of state legislatures like to pass crazy insane nonsense to appeal to their base voters knowing that it won't actually get through to law - I doubt Michigan REALLY wants to be the first state to stand up and shout "FUCK THE GAYS" from the rooftops.
 

Magwik

Banned
Gay couples should go around finding the businesses that would take advantage of the bill and not serve LGBT peeps, then make a list for the internet to see of all the businesses that will not serve homosexuals.

Or just not give the business money instead of sending an internet hate force their way?
 

ivysaur12

Banned
The thing is though, a lot of state legislatures like to pass crazy insane nonsense to appeal to their base voters knowing that it won't actually get through to law - I doubt Michigan REALLY wants to be the first state to stand up and shout "FUCK THE GAYS" from the rooftops.

This one will most likely pass.
 

JCX

Member
Pretty ashamed of my state right now. This is the one of the consequences we face when people don't vote in midterms.

When I was in college, I covered the 2010 Michigan State House elections, which largely consisted of calling candidates and asking their opinions, then writing summaries on each race.

You wouldn't believe how many candidates didn't have basic answers to common issues. One person even asked me "what's stem cell research?"

On the bright side, it helped me jump ship from pursuing a career in journalism.
 
Who decides what a sincerely held belief is? Why is a sincerely held religious belief granted more leeway than a mundane belief?
 

Josh7289

Member
Disgusting. Everyone who voted for that bill does not deserve to hold public office.

If this bill goes through, I hope that it gets overturned at the federal level.
 

Loofy

Member
Who decides what a sincerely held belief is? Why is a sincerely held religious belief granted more leeway than a mundane belief?
Why wouldnt it. Would you tell an employee/student to take off his turban? would you let an employee/student go around wearing a colander on his head?
 

Tenumi

Banned
Well... Fuck.

It's so odd when such a solidly BLUE state elects people who pass shit like this.

Blame West Michigan. Conservative stronghold over here. Heck, the last time that my home county went anything but Republican was the '60s.

Er... let me clarify. I mean the 1860s. I'm not making that up.
 
Why wouldnt it. Would you tell an employee/student to take off his turban? would you let an employee/student go around wearing a colander on his head?

That all redirects back to the first question I asked, which is who decides what is sincerely felt and what isn't.
 

Figboy79

Aftershock LA
This is terrible. I just don't understand why this country is filled with so much hate for others.

I'm a Christian, and this isn't what Christ stood for at all. It's shameful. I'm optimistic that this is ultimately going to be shot down. Lord knows I hope it is.
 

old

Member
This is some choice juice.

The bill references Employment Division v Smith, 494 US 872 (1990). Which set the precedent that a state could deny unemployment benefits because a fired worker smoked peyote during a religious ritual. Or as the bill puts it:
which virtually eliminated the requirement that the government justify burdens on religious exercise imposed by laws neutral toward religion

Conservatives pushed for a drug war to make drugs illegal; used it as a justification to deny someone's religious right to smoke drugs...then used that denial as evidence of the government denying religious freedom and therefore wrote a bill to "restore religious freedoms". So they created a problem then used that as a justification to expand the rights of their constituents at the cost of the rights of "those who vote for the other party".

Now here's the scary part:
"Exercise of religion" means the practice or observance of religion, including an act or refusal to act, that is substantially motivated by a sincerely held religious belief, whether or not compelled by or central to a system of religious belief.

This is an anti-abortion bill.
 
There are apparently like only 4 others aside from myself on here to live in Michigan. Should be enough for a healthy cult.
I live in Michigan. My brother is a gaffer and I randomly met a gaffer and now we're pretty good friends.

My city is pretty awesome but overall Michigan is the worst.
Edit:
^ Truth. Grew up there. I'm rather enjoying my migration to Ann Arbor.
Huh. What side of town?
 

Syriel

Member
That's why I called this bill what its true purpose is in the title. This isn't about religious freedom -- it's about animus in the guise of religious freedom and treating some different than others on the basis of their sexual orientation.

The MI House passed this 59-50. The MI Senate is 26 Republicans, 12 Democrats. The governor, a Republican, said he would've signed the LGBT rights bill for employment, housing and has not commented on the bill that passed. Or at least, I can't find anything on it.

If this passes, it's going to run head first into the ADA.

Or did the Michigan House forget the brouhaha that happened back in 2007 when a large percentage of Muslim cab drivers a state over tried to refuse service to anyone carrying alcohol or with a guide dog?

http://www.reuters.com/article/2007/04/17/us-muslims-taxis-idUSN1633289220070417

Muslim cab drivers at Minnesota's biggest airport will face new penalties including a two-year revocation of their taxi permits if they refuse to give rides to travelers carrying liquor or accompanied by dogs, the board overseeing operations ruled Monday.

The Metropolitan Airports Commission, responding to complaints about the liquor issue, voted unanimously to impose the new penalties beginning in May.

A large number of taxi drivers in the area of the Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport are Muslim Somali immigrants. Many say they feel the faith's ban on alcohol consumption includes transporting anyone carrying it.

Some also have refused to transport dogs, both pets and guide dogs, saying they are unclean.

That shit don't fly. It's like they're setting businesses up to be sued to oblivion in Federal court. Doesn't matter if it is "legal" under State law. If it is illegal under Federal law and you discriminate, you're liable.
 
Oh man, is there a large Muslim presence in Michigan? I hope they don't allow a shitload of Christians. They'll totally remove that law once they face discrimination based on religion.
 

Syriel

Member
Oh man, is there a large Muslim presence in Michigan? I hope they don't allow a shitload of Christians. They'll totally remove that law once they face discrimination based on religion.

You could say that.

It's not a bad thing in any way, but if you start allowing for "sincerely held religious beliefs" to overcome law...well, let's just say that's a breeding ground for conflict.
 
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