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Michigan House passes "license to discriminate" bill, LGBT rights bill dead

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WedgeX

Banned
Michigans legislature is going on a three year straight streak of churning out utterly horrendous legislation (which I've been meaning to make a thread about). Typically against the will of the voters in the state, but the ban of gay marriage still passed with like 66% of the vote.

There are apparently like only 4 others aside from myself on here to live in Michigan. Should be enough for a healthy cult.

There is a huge Detroit (and migrated from Michigan) GAF contingent on GAF.
 

Derwind

Member
Protection for people who seriously hold a religious belief?

I wonder how exactly the wording of this bill was constructed because that is some vague fuckery.

Is this only applicable to the Abrahamic religions or does this hold true to any religious belief?

How serious about your belief do you have to be to be covered by this bill?

Who or what decides how justified a claim of religious belief is?

Seriously, Michigan just went 50 years back with this one. Ugh.
 
Who decides what a sincerely held belief is? Why is a sincerely held religious belief granted more leeway than a mundane belief?

Careful now, you are veering into r/atheism territory with that kind of talk. Religious beliefs are always held in higher regard than mundane beliefs.
 

HUELEN10

Member
I support a Jewish mother having the right to not have an autoposy performed on her child, if it doesn't impede on anyone's life. I don't say I'd support this bill, but I support that aspect of one that didn't suck; is there any way there could be a protection bill for things like that that wouldn't impede on the civil rights of others realistically?
 
I support a Jewish mother having the right to not have an autoposy performed on her child, if it doesn't impede on anyone's life. I don't say I'd support this bill, but I support that aspect of one that didn't suck; is there any way there could be a protection bill for things like that that wouldn't impede on the civil rights of others realistically?

Sure, there could be a bill that said Jews don't have to have autopsies performed on their children. That's not what this bill is really about, and no amount of "it doesn't even mention gays!" will change that. That it also further obstructs women trying to get birth control is an evangelical bonus.
 

Plinko

Wildcard berths that can't beat teams without a winning record should have homefield advantage
So glad I left. That state is a dumpster fire. PoliGAF keeps trying to tell me it's a blue state. It's not.
 

CLEEK

Member
I support a Jewish mother having the right to not have an autoposy performed on her child, if it doesn't impede on anyone's life. I don't say I'd support this bill, but I support that aspect of one that didn't suck; is there any way there could be a protection bill for things like that that wouldn't impede on the civil rights of others realistically?

In Michigan, autopsies are mandatory for any deaths caused by certain medical and legal situations. An autopsy after a car crash would be required to see if the driver was under the influence of drugs or alcohol, or had a medical condition that caused it. It's not just bureaucracy that only impacts one person. It's in place to protect society as a whole.
 

sensui-tomo

Member
another reason to hate the state i live in, okay, i'd move to where my grandparents live, but thats florida and we all know those issues over there. Is there any safe state?
 

HylianTom

Banned
I keep saying: the GOP's donors really want the gay issue to go away, because it's a gateway issue that keeps many younger voters from the party.. but those secretly hoping that a SCOTUS ruling in June will end it are seriously deluded.

If I were the Democrats, I'd be screaming from the rooftops. I don't resort to the b-word easily, but this kind of shit is a sickening display of bigotry.

Hi.. RepublicanGAF? Where y'all at? Party-line vote. Come out and defend this shit! You're endorsing this.
 
Oh man, is there a large Muslim presence in Michigan? I hope they don't allow a shitload of Christians. They'll totally remove that law once they face discrimination based on religion.

If by large you mean 1% of the population then yes. Also, I'm not sure which part of islam you're referring to that refuses business service to Christians. Besides, religious affiliation is a protected group thus service from a place of public accommodation cannot be refused for that reason.

I support a Jewish mother having the right to not have an autoposy performed on her child, if it doesn't impede on anyone's life. I don't say I'd support this bill, but I support that aspect of one that didn't suck; is there any way there could be a protection bill for things like that that wouldn't impede on the civil rights of others realistically?

Yes, an anti-discrimination bill for sexual orientation. Such protections are why federally protected groups such as race, religion, gender, etc. would supersede religious objections even with these religious rights bills.
 

Forceatowulf

G***n S**n*bi
I hate this fucking state. I cannot wait to leave.

another reason to hate the state i live in, okay, i'd move to where my grandparents live, but thats florida and we all know those issues over there. Is there any safe state?
I'm looking into Washington at the moment. maybe Colorado. the warmer parts anyway.
 

ivysaur12

Banned
I keep saying: the GOP's donors really want the gay issue to go away, because it's a gateway issue that keeps many younger voters from the party.. but those secretly hoping that a SCOTUS ruling in June will end it are seriously deluded.

If I were the Democrats, I'd be screaming from the rooftops. I don't resort to the b-word easily, but this kind of shit is a sickening display of bigotry.

Hi.. RepublicanGAF? Where y'all at? Party-line vote. Come out and defend this shit! You're endorsing this.

It doesn't matter if gay marriage bans are struck down -- this is the type of shenanigan we'll continue to see going forward from the Republican party for the foreseeable future. And I believe there are 23 states with GOP trifectas? (They have the state house, senate, and governorship). Yay!
 

HylianTom

Banned
It doesn't matter if gay marriage bans are struck down -- this is the type of shenanigan we'll continue to see going forward from the Republican party for the foreseeable future. And I believe there are 23 states with GOP trifectas? (They have the state house, senate, and governorship). Yay!

It shouldn't infuriate me, because I know this'll likely be knocked-down by the courts and it'll help keep younger voters away from the party (aside from the ones willing to fuck-over their GLBT friends/family for the hopes of slightly lower taxes)
(hi, remarkably quiet RepublicanGAF!)
, but it still obviously gets under my skin.

The national Dems had better make hay with this. I can see some great commercials coming out of it. Maybe a national boycott of Michigan.. if they had any stones.
 

Cyan

Banned
I support a Jewish mother having the right to not have an autoposy performed on her child, if it doesn't impede on anyone's life. I don't say I'd support this bill, but I support that aspect of one that didn't suck; is there any way there could be a protection bill for things like that that wouldn't impede on the civil rights of others realistically?

Sure, that would be doable. Seeing as this bill, like similar ones in other states, is deliberately designed to enable discrimination against gay people, this probably isn't the one you want to back.
 

Wilsongt

Member
It shouldn't infuriate me, because I know this'll likely be knocked-down by the courts and it'll help keep younger voters away from the party (aside from the ones willing to fuck-over their GLBT friends/family for the hopes of slightly lower taxes)
(hi, remarkably quiet RepublicanGAF!)
, but it still obviously gets under my skin.

The national Dems had better make hay with this. I can see some great commercials coming out of it. Maybe a national boycott of Michigan.. if they had any stones.

On that note, I wonder if PD can defend his Snyder vote after this.

I would be optimistic and think this would die in the senate or not signed by the gov, but those numbers and I am sure the gop's recent engorged ego due to the 6th circuit courts ruling makes me feel otherwise.
 
Wow, I find it absolutely mind blowing that I can take a ten minute drive and end up in another state (granted, in another country) where it is seemingly perfectly fine to discriminate against others (in a legal sense). I hope you guys down south can put a lid on what Michigan is trying to do fast.
 
So, poking around a little, since I wasn't 100% sure what the problem with this was, I saw the bit about a proposed amendment that would specifically bar people from using this law to override the Michigan civil rights laws, and then I got it. More religious freedom is fine (hell, the examples given in the OP's quote actually sound good), but specifically going out of your way to use it to deny services to others isn't cool.

Anyway, think it might be worth adding that bit to the OP, just to make it clear that yes, this is a license to discriminate. It didn't have to be, but it is now.
 

jmood88

Member
I don't know why they don't just go ahead and call it the "Christians Can Do Whatever They Want" bill. Everyone knows that if some Muslims started barring non-Muslims from a business, the republicans would lose their minds.
 

ivysaur12

Banned
So, poking around a little, since I wasn't 100% sure what the problem with this was, I saw the bit about a proposed amendment that would specifically bar people from using this law to override the Michigan civil rights laws, and then I got it. More religious freedom is fine (hell, the examples given in the OP's quote actually sound good), but specifically going out of your way to use it to deny services to others isn't cool.

Anyway, think it might be worth adding that bit to the OP, just to make it clear that yes, this is a license to discriminate. It didn't have to be, but it is now.

The quote in the OP that Speaker uses as a reason to pass this bill is to deny services to gay couples by private businesses. He blatantly states what the purpose of this bill is.
 

HylianTom

Banned
The quote in the OP that Speaker uses as a reason to pass this bill is to deny services to gay couples by private businesses. He blatantly states what the purpose of this bill is.

Pretty dumb move on his part.

The court case is really easy when animus is so openly expressed.

In contrast, still nothing from RepublicanGAF, eh? Pretty cowardly.
 
It's going to look awfully bad on them when Michigan gets dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century.

This is the modern day equivalent of being on the side who fought against civil rights movement in the 1950's and 60's.
 
On that note, I wonder if PD can defend his Snyder vote after this.

I would be optimistic and think this would die in the senate or not signed by the gov, but those numbers and I am sure the gop's recent engorged ego due to the 6th circuit courts ruling makes me feel otherwise.

Hasn't Synder shown to be pretty liberal as far as conservatives go? I'm hoping he vetos this especially since the Michigan GOP also pissed off Synder yesterday with another bill they passed.
 

guldakot

Member
Michigan has always had a bizarre political climate, parts of the state (Ann Arbor) are progressive, other parts are straight out of Mississippi Burning at times (Cohocta, Howell).

I would be surprised if this doesn't end up getting vetoed.
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
In cases where the state feels it has a vested interest to autopsy the deceased for the purposes of criminal justice, I do not think the estate ought to be able to block the autopsy, regardless of the reason. This is in keeping with other legal frameworks: for example, if I report domestic violence but then ask the police not to press charges, they can do so against my will, because society's interest in prosecuting criminal behaviour exceeds my own autonomy, although I involves me. Now, naturally as a matter of convention investigators who have relatively little to go on are not going to elect to autopsy people against their family's will as a general rule, but if there's a public interest to be served I have no problem with it overruling the family's interest.
 

Metaphoreus

This is semantics, and nothing more
I guess I'm the inevitable poster referred to in the OP.

The Michigan bill is largely identical to the federal Religious Freedom Restoration Act, enacted in 1993 by a unanimous vote of the (Democrat-controlled) House and a vote of 97-3 in the (Democrat-controlled) Senate, and signed into law by Bill Clinton. It is also similar to the state Religious Freedom Restoration Acts enacted by 19 other states (by Wikipedia's count) in the years since 1997 (and most before 2005), when the Supreme Court ruled that the federal Act could not apply to state laws. Nevertheless, the federal Act has been applied by the Supreme Court with respect to federal laws and regulations (remember Burwell v. Hobby Lobby?), so it's unlikely that a federal constitutional challenge to the state laws would succeed.

The way these laws typically work is as follows: the law provides an exemption to a person from other law if such other law substantially burdens the person's religious exercise, unless the government can prove that enforcing the other law serves a compelling government interest and that such enforcement is the least restrictive means of furthering that compelling government interest. In other words, courts are called upon to balance the interests of the government against the interests of private persons on a case-by-case basis. So, contra the poster above, none of these laws would permit terrorism--the government clearly has an interest in protecting life and property against attacks, and prohibitions on such attacks are undoubtedly the least restrictive means of furthering the government's compelling interest in preventing them. (For those interested in further reading on how the federal law operates, see the series of posts by UCLA law professor Eugene Volokh here.)

There are a number of problems with framing these laws as anti-gay or as providing a "license to discriminate." First, the laws are far too broad to permit such pigeonholing. They apply to government actions across the board, not merely those that require non-discrimination against gays. Maybe providing religious exemptions from otherwise generally applicable laws is a good idea, or maybe it's a bad idea, but that decision should be made by considering the law as a whole, not one (merely possible, as will be seen) application of the law. (Here are a few ways in which the Texas RFRA has been applied over the years, for instance.) Second, it's not even clear that these laws provide private parties with a defense against private plaintiffs suing to enforce civil rights legislation. For example, New Mexico has a Religious Freedom Restoration Act much like the one passed by the Michigan House. Yet, the New Mexico Supreme Court held that the NM RFRA did not apply in a suit between a lesbian couple and a photographer who refused to photograph the couple's commitment ceremony, because the NM RFRA applied only to suits in which the government was a party.
 

Jintor

Member
If it's never explicitly mentioned, it's probably too broad to read into applying to a specific person or poster.

Well played.

lol damn. That discourse.

Anyway, in your reading Meta, are you saying that it might be that the bill will be read to only apply re: cases where the government is a party? Similar to the New Mexico SC decision? Are the bills substantially similar enough for that to be a likely outcome?
 

Xcellere

Member
It is my sincerely held religious belief that coloreds cannot mix with whites. Social, sexual, and economic interactions between the races must be limited via civil codification, otherwise my religious freedoms will be infringed. The Separate But Equal Act of 2014 will be a landmark event in the righteous fight to protect the rights of God-fearing Americans from the ethnic hordes.
 

Metaphoreus

This is semantics, and nothing more
lol damn. That discourse.

Anyway, in your reading Meta, are you saying that it might be that the bill will be read to only apply re: cases where the government is a party? Similar to the New Mexico SC decision? Are the bills substantially similar enough for that to be a likely outcome?

That part of my comment was directed more towards complaints against RFRAs generally, rather than complaints about this one in particular. It's possible that the Michigan law would be interpreted as not applying to suits involving only private litigants--as at least the federal and NM RFRAs have--but I wouldn't say that's certain. In the first place, the comment by the legislator in the OP that this law would protect bakers from having to bake a cake for the celebrants of a same-sex wedding might be taken into account by a court attempting to determine whether the law applies in such a scenario. Second, the definitions used in the Michigan bill differ somewhat from those used in the NM statute. The Michigan bill applies where "government" substantially burdens religious exercise, and "government" specifically includes a "branch" of the state. That contrasts with the NM statute (I can't link directly to it; search for "religious freedom restoration"), which applies where a "government agency" restricts a person's religious exercise, and "government agency" is not defined to include a "branch" of the state (though it does include "the state or any of its . . . institutions, departments, . . . or authorities." Frankly, the NM Supreme Court's declaration that this definition excludes the state legislature and the courts strikes me as implausible, but it is what it is.) On the other hand, both the Michigan bill and the NM statute refer to litigants being entitled to "appropriate relief" against the government, not private parties. In short, it's an open question at this point how the Michigan bill would be interpreted were it to become law and raised in a sexual-orientation-discrimination lawsuit.

EDIT: On further review, the declaration of the NM Supreme Court that I referenced above is even less plausible than I thought earlier. The New Mexico Constitution refers to the "branches" of government as "departments." So the state legislature and the courts would obviously be included in the definition of "government agency."
 

ivysaur12

Banned
Looks like it's dead in the Senate, at least for 2014.

Michigan Senate Majority Leader Randy Richardville expects a religious freedom bill, which would allow people the right to refuse service based on their faith, to die in the legislature without a vote, according to his spokesperson.

“He does not expect the bill to come up for a vote in the senate before the end of the term,” said Richardville’s spokesperson, Amber McCann.

The state’s GOP-controlled house of representatives passed the Religious Freedom Restoration Act (RFRA) along party lines on Dec. 4. The bill is now in the state senate, where Richardville, a Republican, sets the agenda. Michigan’s legislature session adjourns this month.

“He does not feel the need to rush any bill through for a vote,” McCann told BuzzFeed News. “RFRA is not a priority for Senator Richardville.”

Critics have dubbed the measure the “right-to-discriminate bill,” arguing it would grant people sweeping discretion to discriminate against any sect of society they choose on religious grounds.

As successes rack up in the form of marriage equality rulings and anti-discrimination laws across the United States, some conservatives have begun a counter-offense, advancing a raft of state religious freedom bills that would allow people with moral objections to avoid involving themselves and their businesses with LGBT people. Such bills have either been pre-filed or are expected soon in Kansas, Texas, North Carolina, Utah, and other jurisdictions.

“It is very broad,” said Rana Elmir, deputy director at ACLU of Michigan, which lobbied against the RFRA as part of the group’s ongoing work to provide equal access in public accommodations. For example, Elmir told BuzzFeed News, “It would allow an officer to argue that he or she would not have to patrol a mosque. Pharmacists could argue that they can refuse to give daily birth control. It seem like the sky’s the limit.”

Many expect Michigan’s RFRA to return in 2015. But it is unclear if Richardville supports passage of the state law.

“If it’s important to the next crop of senators then they reintroduce in the new year,” said McCann. Asked if Richardville supports such a proposal, she said, “He supports the premise but he feels federal law already offers enough protection.”
 

Wasteman

Banned
Why is taking America to get religion out of politics ? In the UK religion is still big, traditions are upheld but it rarely gets brought up in the political spectrum (apart from extremist, radicalisation etc) . I won't be surprised if we had an atheist primeminister soon.
 
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