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Micro Stuttering in PC Games

T

Thrakier

Member
Hey guys,

first of all, check this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZ25xqxCBDc

As you can see the "scrolling" in this game is not smooth. It kinda is smooth for a second, then jumps a bit, smooth again, jumps. For now I call this phenomenon "micro stuttering".

I have this phenomenon in every game which is not "locked" to either 60 or 30FPS (40 or 50 is fine also, it seems that fluctuating is the problem). It depends on the game how noticable is. In Witcher 2 it's very noticable. In, say, Crysis 2, it's almost not noticable, only if you watch out for it.

Games I tested:

- Crysis 2
- Dirt 3 (very noticable if not locked to 60, super smooth if locked)
- NFS: Hot Pursuit (runs at 60 95% of the time but as soons as it drops to 52 or 55...I notice it as stuttering)
- Hard Reset (almost not noticable but it's there)
- Witcher 2 (VERY noticable, only thing which helps is using a frame limiter and limiting it to 30FPS)

Now all I want to know is - is this "common PC behavior"? Is it normal? Is it what happens if the Framerate isn't locked? Because it's kinda driving me crazy right now. It's super annoying in Witcher 2, it's like constant little forward jumps, it disturbs the animation as well and makes the game look quite janky. Normally I can get 30 to 60FPS in Witcher 2, depending on the scene, but it's only acceptable at locked 30.

If you look around you can find people with similar problems (seems like it): http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2158241&page=2

My system:
i52400
6850 @ 850/1050
8GB Ram
Sony Z4500 @1080p

I tried tons of stuff with FSAA, VSync, Triple Buffering and so on...but I can't find a solution. Is it possible that there is no solution?
 
The only games where I get true micro stutter is GTA IV, Oblivion, Fallout 3, and Nyx Quest. The Witcher was bad, but it fixed it self magically.
 
vocab said:
The only games where I get true micro stutter is GTA IV, and Nyx Quest.
Click to expand...

So what is "true" micro stutter and what is untrue?

@Mindman

You are correct. Since I'm back in PC gaming I focused way more on fixing problems than playing.
 
The frames are not evenly spaced when the framerate is fluctuating and is not an even multiple of your refresh rate, which creates that jarring effect.
 
Definitely not normal if your frame rate is steady-ish. Not that I've noticed it even when it's not but I guess it's possible.

Still, why exactly don't you want to lock each game to your refresh rate anyway? Vsync + triple buffering are good for you.
 
Thrakier said:
Hey guys,

first of all, check this video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZ25xqxCBDc

As you can see the "scrolling" in this game is not smooth. It kinda is smooth for a second, then jumps a bit, smooth again, jumps. For now I call this phenomenon "micro stuttering".

I have this phenomenon in every game which is not "locked" to either 60 or 30FPS (40 or 50 is fine also, it seems that fluctuating is the problem). It depends on the game how noticable is. In Witcher 2 it's very noticable. In, say, Crysis 2, it's almost not noticable, only if you watch out for it.

Games I tested:

- Crysis 2
- Dirt 3 (very noticable if not locked to 60, super smooth if locked)
- NFS: Hot Pursuit (runs at 60 95% of the time but as soons as it drops to 52 or 55...I notice it as stuttering)
- Hard Reset (almost not noticable but it's there)
- Witcher 2 (VERY noticable, only thing which helps is using a frame limiter and limiting it to 30FPS)

Now all I want to know is - is this "common PC behavior"? Is it normal? Is it what happens if the Framerate isn't locked? Because it's kinda driving me crazy right now. It's super annoying in Witcher 2, it's like constant little forward jumps, it disturbs the animation as well and makes the game look quite janky. Normally I can get 30 to 60FPS in Witcher 2, depending on the scene, but it's only acceptable at locked 30.

If you look around you can find people with similar problems (seems like it): http://forums.steampowered.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2158241&page=2

My system:
i52400
6850 @ 850/1050
8GB Ram
Sony Z4500 @1080p

I tried tons of stuff with FSAA, VSync, Triple Buffering and so on...but I can't find a solution. Is it possible that there is no solution?
Click to expand...

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=366413

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=437030
 
I remember having tons of "microstuttering" issues with fallout 3 and the remedy for that one was to get an HD with a larger cache (went from an 8MB cache -> 32 MB cache HDD worked for me- supposedly FO3 liked to stream environment textures directly from the HDD). Although I hesitate to call it microstuttering because other people have pointed out that it wasn't (though judging by the witcher 2 vid, that's what was happening to me in FO3 prior to making a switch to a larger cached HDD)
 
Framerate juddering from an uneven framerate used to drive me crazy during the Radeon R300 days. This is why UE3 has framerate smoothing. Or you can v-sync but sometimes you can't maintain 60fps, in which case use dxtory to cap to 30fps.
 
The only time I had stuttering issues was with Dual GPU setups.
I had a Radeon 4870x2, then 2x6850, both stuttered intermittently.
Decided to go single 6950 (2GB Ref. w/ Shaders unlocked), issue went away.
 
Microstuttering has nothing to do with GPU, it's HDD and RAM I believe.

Still there is plenty of microstuttering on consoles too since PC devs moved there this gen.
 
This isn't microstuttering, however it is an issue I've encountered in several games. Even vsync doesn't fix it. A game I played recently had this issue...I'm trying to recall which game it was.

subversus said:
Microstuttering has nothing to do with GPU, it's HDD and RAM I believe.
Click to expand...

True microstuttering is entirely GPU related.
 
I suffered for about 2-3 years with microstuttering, thanks to the Radeon 4870X2.

Today, I sold the card. Good riddance! Noisy, hot and stuttery. Won't miss it.
 
Mindman said:
The solution would be console gaming. :)

(Sorry, just couldn't resist. Eat me alive GAF.)
Click to expand...
:lol I love it.

Yeah, microstuttering sucks, but it's never really bothered me. I also don't mind not having vsync on.

If you have vsync on, you might want to turn that off since it can make these things worse.

edit: nm, you have. Yeah, not sure man.
 
Dark Stalkers said:
Happens to me whenever I alt tab in and out of BF3.
Click to expand...

I've noticed the same, I encounter a little bit of micro stuttering before it becomes stable. My specs are fine, but the HDD is ancient.

Edit: Beaten lol. Looks like a lot of people have this issue.
 
subversus said:
Microstuttering has nothing to do with GPU, it's HDD and RAM I believe.

Still there is plenty of microstuttering on consoles too since PC devs moved there this gen.
Click to expand...
Generally less stuttering in console games than there is consistent slowdown.
 
Ah, Alice was the game I played recently with this issue. Even with a locked 60fps, this judder was still happening. Like I said, this isn't microstuttering...I'm not quite sure what is the cause of the issue.

This is closer to the stuttering in Oblivion and Fallout, which rears itself when you look at certain light sources in the game. It's a flaw in how the engine works on the PC.
 
I think you're seeing something else. Due to the way monitor refreshing works, framerates in the 50s on a 60 Hz display will appear to "judder" or move in a slightly jerky fashion.

There are some games which suffer from such issues even when the framerate is a locked 60 fps, however. Mafia 2 is one of those games.

Most games are fine, but there are various issues that crop up in some titles that I've never been able to solve. All of the STALKER games, for instance, have issues when you stand around fire (or other similar light sources). FRAPS continues to report 60 fps, but the game appears very jerky.

Now, multi-GPU setups are another thing entirely and DO suffer greatly from this with almost everything I've seen. Multi-GPU setups are a waste of money that fools people into thinking they are getting something out having multiple cards (I suppose if benchmarks are the only thing that matters to you, you might get something out of them).
 
dark10x said:
I think you're seeing something else. Due to the way monitor refreshing works, framerates in the 50s on a 60 Hz display will appear to "judder" or move in a slightly jerky fashion.

There are some games which suffer from such issues even when the framerate is a locked 60 fps, however. Mafia 2 is one of those games.
Click to expand...

Yeah this is one of those games. This is much more severe than the judder you see from <60fps with triple buffered vsync.

D3RANG3D said:
I encounter micro stuttering in console gaming all the time...
Click to expand...

Just so that everyone is clear, this isn't microstuttering, and you wouldn't experience microstuttering on consoles.

Microstuttering is a dual-GPU related feature. It happens when the GPUs render each alternate frame in an uneven fashion, causing very big highs and lows in the framerate like this:

microstutter2ls7.png


When you experience microstutter, it won't be as pronounced as the example in the OP, but it will make it feel like you have a lower framerate than you actually do.
 
Never can I've noticed microstuttering but recognize it can be an issue on the PC side of things. No way I would trade that for lower res and fps with less visual polish on consoles though.
 
D3RANG3D said:
I encounter micro stuttering in console gaming all the time...
Click to expand...
That's not true at all, actually. I've have never witnessed anything of the sort on consoles. There are other issues on those platforms, but this kind of stuttering really doesn't occur.
 
There are other forms of stuttering in PC gaming as well. Many games with a streaming engine will give you slight pauses/skips as the game world streams in. This is due to a poor caching system. On consoles, the HDD and RAM are readily available and very responsive. On PCs, games have to compete with dozens of running processes for RAM access, and as a result the response is not as quick. If the game doesn't properly cache the level ahead of time, you'll experience stutters as it loads in. SSDs can often help improve these stutters as it reduces the amount of time it takes to load data from the HDD to the RAM.
 
Yea I've never seen framerate juddering on console games.

I used to blame juddering on my nforce2 motherboard chipset due to the nf3 stuttering fiasco. But throughout the years as I've upgraded to other motherboards I still experienced this issue. I've just come to accept juddering as an occasional annoyance of PC gaming.

I'm real happy this thread popped up. I used to think this was just me being OCD crazy.
 
TheExodu5 said:
True microstuttering is entirely GPU related.
Click to expand...


Correct! I can't stand micro stuttering... >:D

Anyway, this may have been asked but do you have your GPU overclocked? Do you run V-sync?

Generally dual gpus cause micro stutter so with a single card I am kinda perplexed that is happening to you :/

Also do you use a standard mechanical HDD or SSD??
 
DennisK4 said:
Microstuttering - the Loch Ness monster of PC gaming.
Click to expand...

That sound you hear is brain_stew vehemently disagreeing and labelling you a liar.
 
Wait guys, just to be clear. When my game is locked to either 60FPS or 30FPS it's fine. It seems like we are talking tons of different matters now. I can't keep up. ;D

Normally a framerate of, say 40 to 45 FPS shouldn't stutter if it doesn't drop below 30/25. But it DOES stutter, even in the high 50s. Like in the Witcher 2. The same effect you see in the video.

So the problem actually is the fluctuating framerate? It seems like the stutter appears right in the moment the FPS counter changes, but I'm not so sure, maybe I'm just seeing things. Depending on the game engine it's very visible or almost not. But it's always there if not locked.

If it's not my system everyone should have this problem or not? Or should I buy an NVIDIA card? I really can't enjoy my games that way...

EDIT:

Card is slightly OC but I don't think it's my problem. Why should it run fine with a locked framerate in the first place then?
 
dark10x said:
That's not true at all, actually. I've have never witnessed anything of the sort on consoles. There are other issues on those platforms, but this kind of stuttering really doesn't occur.
Click to expand...


Have to agree with you, I am very sensitive to micro stutter and I have not encountered it on the consoles( ps3 and 360). I have encountered what appeared to be like microstutter but was changes in the frame rate back when I had a Radeon 9500, can't remember how I got rid of it. I think I used V-Sync and lowered the grfx setings and it helped alot :/
 
Thrakier said:
Wait guys, just to be clear. When my game is locked to either 60FPS or 30FPS it's fine. It seems like we are talking tons of different matters now. I can't keep up. ;D

Normally a framerate of, say 40 to 45 FPS shouldn't stutter if it doesn't drop below 30/25. But it DOES stutter, even in the high 50s. Like in the Witcher 2. The same effect you see in the video.

So the problem actually is the fluctuating framerate? It seems like the stutter appears right in the moment the FPS counter changes, but I'm not so sure, maybe I'm just seeing things. Depending on the game engine it's very visible or almost not. But it's always there if not locked.

If it's not my system everyone should have this problem or not? Or should I buy an NVIDIA card? I really can't enjoy my games that way...

EDIT:

Card is slightly OC but I don't think it's my problem. Why should it run fine with a locked framerate in the first place then?
Click to expand...


Ah, I think I understand what your saying now, although it may look like microstutter, its actually the frame rate changing and from what you said its not a huge frame rate difference. Hmm, not sure how to get rid of this other then lower the settings enough so its a constant 30 or 60 and enable v-sync and see how that runs. Go try it on a game and come back and let us know :)
 
JaseC said:
That sound you hear is brain_stew vehemently disagreeing and labelling you a liar.
Click to expand...
we don't need brain_stew to shoot that nonsense down.

Dark10x, The Exodu5 and if i may humbly also name myself, are all sensitive to inconsistant motion, and i feel as strongly as Dark does about multi GPU setups.

they're a waste of money. if you can't see the microstuttering, then you wouldn't notice a lower framerate either.

if you have 4 gpus, or something like that, i'm sure it evens out quite nicely, but dual gpu setups (or single cards with two gpus on them) are a market scam. when i had one, i hated it. fraps was telling me i had 60 fps, but it did not feel like it. i was playing Burnout Paradise, which i had played extensively on PS3 (which runs as near as locked to 60fps) and it just didn't run as smooth. not close.

now that i have a single GPU, 60 feels like 60 should again. no loch ness anything. microstuttering is real, and if you 'don't mind it' or 'can't see it' then you can't see a true smooth 60 fps either.

it sounds like Thrakier is sensitive to inconsitant motion, and if he's running with triple buffered vsync, frame rates in the fifties show this really clearly.

can you see judder in 3:2 pull down if you know what that is Thrakier?
 
Blackvette94 said:
Ah, I think I understand what your saying now, although it may look like microstutter, its actually the frame rate changing and from what you said its not a huge frame rate difference. Hmm, not sure how to get rid of this other then lower the settings enough so its a constant 30 or 60 and enable v-sync and see how that runs. Go try it on a game and come back and let us know :)
Click to expand...

That's how I get it stutter free. Make it run at 30 or 60 with V-Sync. I don't notice any stutter then. DIRT 3 is butter smooth but ONLY with V-Sync. If V-Sync is off I get stutter even with framerates above 60 and that's absurd.

The Witcher 2 runs smoothly at 60FPS @720p. No stuttering at all. Or locking 1080p to 30FPS.

@Plagiarize

Not sure what you mean with that Pulldown, but I clearly see 24FPS stuttering. Btw, the stuttering is less visible if you are either really fast or really slow. Don't know if that makes sense. If not I'd need to test it again I guess. You can just check the video in the OP if you wan't to see what I see.

I'd make a video, but ironically as soon as I activate FRAPS recording my frames drop to 30 and the stuttering stops...
 
plagiarize said:
we don't need brain_stew to shoot that nonsense down.

Dark10x, The Exodu5 and if i may humbly also name myself, are all sensitive to inconsistant motion, and i feel as strongly as Dark does about multi GPU setups.

they're a waste of money. if you can't see the microstuttering, then you wouldn't notice a lower framerate either.

if you have 4 gpus, or something like that, i'm sure it evens out quite nicely, but dual gpu setups (or single cards with two gpus on them) are a market scam. when i had one, i hated it. fraps was telling me i had 60 fps, but it did not feel like it. i was playing Burnout Paradise, which i had played extensively on PS3 (which runs as near as locked to 60fps) and it just didn't run as smooth. not close.

now that i have a single GPU, 60 feels like 60 should again. no loch ness anything. microstuttering is real, and if you 'don't mind it' or 'can't see it' then you can't see a true smooth 60 fps either.

it sounds like Thrakier is sensitive to inconsitant motion, and if he's running with triple buffered vsync, frame rates in the fifties show this really clearly.

can you see judder in 3:2 pull down if you know what that is Thrakier?
Click to expand...

You can add me into the group of sensitive to inconsistant motion :p

This is whay I went with a single GTX580 and watercooled it so I could overclock it. Multi gpu looks nice in graphs for #'s BUT they def add microstutter due to the AFR that has to be used. SIngle GPU for life! I hope the next gen consoles do NOT go multi gpu.
 
Thrakier said:
That's how I get it stutter free. Make it run at 30 or 60 with V-Sync. I don't notice any stutter then. DIRT 3 is butter smooth but ONLY with V-Sync. If V-Sync is off I get stutter even with framerates above 60 and that's absurd.

The Witcher 2 runs smoothly at 60FPS @720p. No stuttering at all. Or locking 1080p to 30FPS.

@Plagiarize

Not sure what you mean with that Pulldown, but I clearly see 24FPS stuttering. Btw, the stuttering is less visible if you are either really fast or really slow. Don't know if that makes sense. If not I'd need to test it again I guess.
Click to expand...

How do you lock PC games to 30fps??
 
Just to be fair to SLI/Crossfire though, if you have 60fps vsynced, you should not be experiencing microstuttering at all. Dual-GPU related microstuttering happens when you have a sub 60fps framerate and when the game doesn't use a proper Crossfire/SLI profile. Battlefield 3, for example, makes very good use of dual-GPUs and I don't experience any microstuttering whatsoever.

If you are experiencing stuttering when locked to 30fps/60fps, it's not something that's curable by going to a single GPU setup...it's a separate issue altogether.
 
Thrakier said:
That's how I get it stutter free. Make it run at 30 or 60 with V-Sync. I don't notice any stutter then. DIRT 3 is butter smooth but ONLY with V-Sync. If V-Sync is off I get stutter even with framerates above 60 and that's absurd.

The Witcher 2 runs smoothly at 60FPS @720p. No stuttering at all. Or locking 1080p to 30FPS.

@Plagiarize

Not sure what you mean with that Pulldown, but I clearly see 24FPS stuttering. Btw, the stuttering is less visible if you are either really fast or really slow. Don't know if that makes sense. If not I'd need to test it again I guess.
Click to expand...


Yup, I spent what felt like DAYS back when BF1942 came out on my Radeon 9700 to get the frame rates smooth, 60 fps or higher on my crt monitor has alot of what looks and felt like stutter. All I needed to do most of the time is just enable v-sync but with BF1942 I had to dial down AA, and some ingame settings to get it to run smooth and of course v-sync.

To the OP, please try this and see if it helps or gets rid of it. I know how dissappointing it is to play on a nice pc and the game doesnt feel smooth, because it SHOULD feel and look smooth.
 
TheExodu5 said:
Just to be fair to SLI/Crossfire though, if you have 60fps vsynced, you should not be experiencing microstuttering at all. Dual-GPU related microstuttering happens when you have a sub 60fps framerate and when the game doesn't use a proper Crossfire/SLI profile. Battlefield 3, for example, makes very good use of dual-GPUs and I don't experience any microstuttering whatsoever.

If you are experiencing stuttering when locked to 30fps/60fps, it's not something that's curable by going to a single GPU setup...it's a separate issue altogether.
Click to expand...


I havent tried that, but I will take your word for it. A little off topic, what is your sig about? Does triple buffer get rid of mouse lag? ( never heard of this sorry!)
 
plagiarize said:
we don't need brain_stew to shoot that nonsense down.

Dark10x, The Exodu5 and if i may humbly also name myself, are all sensitive to inconsistant motion, and i feel as strongly as Dark does about multi GPU setups.

they're a waste of money. if you can't see the microstuttering, then you wouldn't notice a lower framerate either.

if you have 4 gpus, or something like that, i'm sure it evens out quite nicely, but dual gpu setups (or single cards with two gpus on them) are a market scam. when i had one, i hated it. fraps was telling me i had 60 fps, but it did not feel like it. i was playing Burnout Paradise, which i had played extensively on PS3 (which runs as near as locked to 60fps) and it just didn't run as smooth. not close.

now that i have a single GPU, 60 feels like 60 should again. no loch ness anything. microstuttering is real, and if you 'don't mind it' or 'can't see it' then you can't see a true smooth 60 fps either.

it sounds like Thrakier is sensitive to inconsitant motion, and if he's running with triple buffered vsync, frame rates in the fifties show this really clearly.

can you see judder in 3:2 pull down if you know what that is Thrakier?
Click to expand...

No, but he was aggressive in his insistence that absolutely everybody can perceive it and anybody who says otherwise is being disingenuous.
 
Mindman said:
How do you lock PC games to 30fps??
Click to expand...


Make sure the game is running consistently over 30 but under 60, with v-sync enabled, if it goes below 60 at ALL it will run at 30 fps so you want to run it so it doesnt go to 60, that way you wont get fluctuating frame rate from 60 to 30 for vsync.

Gotta say its not easy to do, its like you become a QA for the pc game heh, but it can be done.
 
TheExodu5 said:
Just to be fair to SLI/Crossfire though, if you have 60fps vsynced, you should not be experiencing microstuttering at all. Dual-GPU related microstuttering happens when you have a sub 60fps framerate and when the game doesn't use a proper Crossfire/SLI profile. Battlefield 3, for example, makes very good use of dual-GPUs and I don't experience any microstuttering whatsoever.

If you are experiencing stuttering when locked to 30fps/60fps, it's not something that's curable by going to a single GPU setup...it's a separate issue altogether.
Click to expand...
I don't really agree with that. Using SLI, even with a locked 60 fps using v-sync, things still did not appear as smooth as they should. The framerate counter claims a perfect 60, but my eyes tell me otherwise. Switching to a single GPU solves it 100%.
 
TheExodu5 said:
Just to be fair to SLI/Crossfire though, if you have 60fps vsynced, you should not be experiencing microstuttering at all. Dual-GPU related microstuttering happens when you have a sub 60fps framerate and when the game doesn't use a proper Crossfire/SLI profile. Battlefield 3, for example, makes very good use of dual-GPUs and I don't experience any microstuttering whatsoever.

If you are experiencing stuttering when locked to 30fps/60fps, it's not something that's curable by going to a single GPU setup...it's a separate issue altogether.
Click to expand...


Thanks for you informative post. I always encountered many kinds of different stuttering for years!! So you tell me it's totally possible to get rid of all that for good... ? Any other great configs I should be aware of?
 
dark10x said:
That's not true at all, actually. I've have never witnessed anything of the sort on consoles. There are other issues on those platforms, but this kind of stuttering really doesn't occur.
Click to expand...

lol
 
TheExodu5 said:
Yeah this is one of those games. This is much more severe than the judder you see from <60fps with triple buffered vsync.



Just so that everyone is clear, this isn't microstuttering, and you wouldn't experience microstuttering on consoles.

Microstuttering is a dual-GPU related feature. It happens when the GPUs render each alternate frame in an uneven fashion, causing very big highs and lows in the framerate like this:

microstutter2ls7.png


When you experience microstutter, it won't be as pronounced as the example in the OP, but it will make it feel like you have a lower framerate than you actually do.
Click to expand...

Uh no, it's a feature in Oblivion, Fallout, and it occurs in both PC and Console versions.
 
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