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Micro Stuttering in PC Games
- Thread starter Thrakier
- Start date
D3RANG3D said:
The stutter in Oblivion and Fallout is not what is known as microstutter.
Blackvette94 said:
The admin who gave me my tag was misinformed. Triple buffering only reduces mouse lag (in comparison to double buffering) when the PC can't maintain 60fps. Otherwise, it increases mouse lag unless the game has something to counter mouse lag (such as the "Reduce Input Lag" option in WoW). The only way to get zero mouse lag is to play without Vsync, sadly.
We're arguing semantics, really. Microstuttering is simply a term that's reserved for multi-GPU related stuttering. What's described in the OP and in Fallout/Oblivion is a separate juddering issue which is a flaw in the engine itself rather than a flaw in the hardware or driver profile.
D3RANG3D said:
Indeed it is.
Fixable in Oblivion and Fallout with some tweaks or mods though, as I recall.
From TweakGuides:
D3RANG3D
Member
TheExodu5 said:
And here is the tool for those interested.
http://tesnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=23208
Blackvette94 said:
Not in the case of the OP. It's not a loading issue. Load stutters are less regular and more abrupt...you might get a half second skip as you enter a new area.
I am taking back what I said about it not being a framerate issue though...I won't count it out entirely...it's simply too hard to tell with the offscreen video. 34fps is going to result in quite a few doubled frames, which will introduce some judder. It just seems a little more pronounced than I would expect in the OP. It might just be the recording that's making it seem worse than it is.
Since it's such a regular stutter, and since locking at 30/60fps fixes it, it probably is just judder from the triple buffering. Nothing can be done about this.
TheExodu5 said:
It's what I'm seeing though. It's like the scrolling is just all over the place, jumping back and forth, animation is fucked and so on.
Once again: It's GONE as soon the game is locked at 30 or 60FPS (720p). So I don't think it's a HDD issue.
I now tetsted a different monitor, same result.
domlolz said:
What he's experiencing is the game being reloaded into VRAM. Many games flush out the VRAM when you alt tab, and alt tabbing back in causes the game to reload everything into VRAM again.
Thrakier said:
Yeah, I just misjudged due to the offscreen recording. It's a side effect of triple buffering. Nothing can be done about it.
When you're displaying at 33fps, triple buffering makes it so that frames will sometimes have to be repeated twice to make up for missing frames.
In the case of 33fps, I think 9 out of 10 frames would be repeated twice, and the remaining frame will be shown only once. This results in some tiny stutters as frames aren't being displayed at an even rate.
The video in the OP is The Witcher 2 jumping between 24-30fps.
It doesn't surprise me at all that it isn't smooth. I think that's a very poor example.
My motto is, if you can't run it as a solid 60fps, you should lock it at 30. Since you already realize that, what's left to figure out?
It doesn't surprise me at all that it isn't smooth. I think that's a very poor example.
My motto is, if you can't run it as a solid 60fps, you should lock it at 30. Since you already realize that, what's left to figure out?
brain_stew
Member
This isn't micro stutter, this is normal behaviour. If your frame rate isn't a factor of your refresh rate (i.e. 60,30,20 etc.) then you're not going to get constant motion. Use vsync and or a frame rate capping program like Dxtory (although that can bring with it its own issues).Thrakier said:
A quick tip I use is to set my refresh rate to 50hz and vsync there as its much easier on the GPU.
TheExodu5 said:
D3D Overrider is not active though and the Withcers VSync Option is also deactivated. With Witchers Vysnc it's also hovering between 40 and 45. So maybe Witchers Vsync triple buffers as well? No idea.
I also noticed that it's like the animation slows down sometimes and then goes a tiny bit faster the moment the micro stuttering occurs. Makes sense, just looks weird. Oh, forgot what I said about "walking slowly makes it better", that's nonsense. It's always there. Always.
@Jack
True. But hovering between 25 and 30 isn't necessarily resulting in stuttering. For me it's between 40 and 45 and it looks exactly like that.
Thrakier said:
Most modern games incorporate triple buffering when vsync is on. With vsync off you shouldn't be noticing anything like that though...if you are experiencing this stuttering with vsync off then I'd say it's an engine issue.
I have yet to play through The Witcher 2 so I can't comment on it.
TheExodu5 said:
That would make sense for NFS which seems to be VSync on always (can't find an option to deactivate it).
However, if I get it right that means: I can either run a game at 60FPS or at 30FPS, anything between and I get that annoying stuttering. So having a GFX card which gives me like avg. 55FPS is good for...nothing? Wow.
No way, that doesn't make sense:
1. VSync on and good enough Performance for 60FPS = no stutter
2. VSync on and performance isn't suffice for 60FPS = stutter
3. Vsync off and performance isn't suffice for 60FPS = stutter
3. Vsync off/on (doesn't matter, only in regards to tearing) and frame limiter to 30FPS) = no stutter
WTH?
1. VSync on and good enough Performance for 60FPS = no stutter
2. VSync on and performance isn't suffice for 60FPS = stutter
3. Vsync off and performance isn't suffice for 60FPS = stutter
3. Vsync off/on (doesn't matter, only in regards to tearing) and frame limiter to 30FPS) = no stutter
WTH?
Thrakier said:
Well, like I said, I never found the stuttering to be as pronounced as it is in the OP...but yes, you will get stuttering. It's simply a limitation of current display technology, and there's nothing that PCs or consoles can do to fix it unless the way displays interact with devices changes.
Thrakier said:
At both 30 and 60fps, frames are being repeated an even amount of times. At 60fps, every frame is being displayed once. At 30fps, every frame is being displayed twice. In between, some frames are displayed twice, and others once, which introduced judder.
Futurevoid
Member
Deus Ex Human Revolution had mad stuttering issues for me. It wasn't bad on release and I played through the entire game but I recently started replaying after the last patch and it's almost unplayable. Looking very much like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFyW1Sa7Cuo&feature=related
I disabled DX11 and it runs buttery smooth. I've enabled and disabled every option possible and only turning off DX11 smooths things out. Though it's a known issue with the game engine.
The Gamebryo engine games like Fallout 3, New Vegas etc. are terrible for stuttering. There are plenty of mod fixes though.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFyW1Sa7Cuo&feature=related
I disabled DX11 and it runs buttery smooth. I've enabled and disabled every option possible and only turning off DX11 smooths things out. Though it's a known issue with the game engine.
The Gamebryo engine games like Fallout 3, New Vegas etc. are terrible for stuttering. There are plenty of mod fixes though.
ACH1LL3US
Member
Thrakier said:
It makes perfect sense. Your display wants 30 or 60 fps. If you run your pc with no vsync and the game is going from say 60 to 45, the tv cant accept 46 fps, so the stutter/frame judder is caused because the tv needs to have it at 30 because your running at 46 fps. Vsync will do the job of keeping the outgoing signal either 30 or 60 fps. Then the tv is fine with those signals.
Blackvette94 said:
While the end result is the same, it actually works a little differently than that. The TV actually gets the frame from your video card, rather than your card sending it to the TV. When you're running at 30fps, the TV is still displaying 60Hz, it just ends up retrieving the same frame twice.
We might see new display technologies or communication protocols that allow for a variable refresh rate in the future. Sadly, for now, we're stuck with the issue.
jim-jam bongs
Member
.DennisK4 said:
Thrakier, no offence bud but you seem to have a new problem with PC gaming every other day. Maybe you should just play consoles.
it is annoying, and it is also annoying that you spend so much time tinkering rather than playing. I blame options and the constant desire to get a little more out of your investment. On consoles, the developers would have done that for you.
I guess the simplest solution is to be less ambitious with settings. Use lower settings to ensure you can get a nice solid 30/60fps and then lock it at that framerate. Just pretend those lovely 'ultra' high resolution texture and AA settings don't exist
I guess the simplest solution is to be less ambitious with settings. Use lower settings to ensure you can get a nice solid 30/60fps and then lock it at that framerate. Just pretend those lovely 'ultra' high resolution texture and AA settings don't exist
jim-jam bongs said:
Yeah, no problem. I imagined it would be easier to get into PC gaming again. It's like the right thing for people who like hightec (which is mean) but than it isn't because it introduces 1000s of new problems.
I'm actually thinking of just giving up on it again. Or buying an i52500k and a
Thrakier said:
First off, to make sure the issue you're talking about is triple buffering judder, can you test this with another game to see if you're experiencing the same thing?
If so, then I'm afraid you're one of the few that's overly sensitive to this kind of judder. You can join dark10x in mourning.
jim-jam bongs said:
Yeah, no problem. I imagined it would be easier to get into PC gaming again. It's like the right thing for people who like hightec (which is mean) but than it isn't because it introduces 1000s of new problems.
I'm actually thinking of just giving up on it again. Or buying an i52500k and a 6870. Btw, is there a huge difference between a 6850oc (925/1075) and a 6870? Oh, and is there a way to force FSAA on Hot Pursuit? Catalyst isn't working anymore since 11.x.
I´ve the weirdest stuttering.. every game I play, even with vsync and triple buffering on, my fps varies from 60 fps locked to 59,1, that cause a slightly visible stutter, is something like a fps skipping.
I realized this because Fraps was showing 60 fps locked, but MSI Afterburner shows this variation.
I realized this because Fraps was showing 60 fps locked, but MSI Afterburner shows this variation.
rallyart said:
I've run into that issue...and that, unfortunately, I have no idea how to fix it. It's a result of the GPU not quite rendering in sync with the TV's refresh rate. It doesn't happen with every game, though. Playing World of Warcraft in Fullscreen Windowed mode right now and it doesn't experience the issue...so I guess it really depends on how the game interacts with the display driver.
BSNES has a huge issue with rendering in sync with the TV.
rallyart said:
Noticed that as well. Only game running rock solid @60FPS so far is DIRT 3!
Downloading TF2.
Does NVIDIA have the same problems?
@Exodus
Yep, I'm activating it. I tried to record the issue but I can't because it's gone as soon it's activated. Strange thing is that FRAPS doesn't show 30FPS while recording, it's above 30 and into the 40s depending on the setting.
jim-jam bongs
Member
Only if you tick the "Lock framerate" box in your video recording settings.
jim-jam bongs said:
If I don't tick the box it still locks it to 30 for me. =\ I always found it rather annoying.
edit: want to know something interesting? Know how I said WoW doesn't exhibit any 60fps stutter in Windowed Fullscreen mode? It does in regular Fullscreen mode. I guess the Windows Desktop Manager does a much better job of syncing with the display than the game engine itself. Weird.
Doing some testing with the Hard Reset Demo. Is there a difference between over and under 60FPS? Because I noticed the following:
Same scene:
VSync Off:
Game @40FPS, very visible micro stuttering.
VSync on:
Game @around 55FPS, pretty smooth (but tearing)
Same scene:
Vsync Off:
Game @70 to 80FPS, very very bad stuttering
VSync On:
Game @locked 60FPS, smooth as butter.
Same scene:
VSync Off:
Game @40FPS, very visible micro stuttering.
VSync on:
Game @around 55FPS, pretty smooth (but tearing)
Same scene:
Vsync Off:
Game @70 to 80FPS, very very bad stuttering
VSync On:
Game @locked 60FPS, smooth as butter.