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Micro Stuttering in PC Games
- Thread starter Thrakier
- Start date
jim-jam bongs
Member
TheExodu5 said:
Yup, I'm pretty sure that's because the Windows WM doesn't have to tie your frame rate to your refresh rate when you're in FS windowed mode to prevent tearing because of the way it renders it.
You guys got me thinking. I remembered that a while ago someone made a thread here about limiting your FPS to 30 in PC games so that you can eliminate stuttering and increase settings etc. So I did a bit of Googlin' and found this thread:
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums...Micro-stuttering-on-multi-GPU-solutions/page3
Someone links a file called FPS limiter there as a fix for micro-stutter. I haven't given it a go but you guys might want to have a crack at it.
jim-jam bongs
Member
goodfella said:
Engines usually read input before they begin to draw a frame, so the more frames being rendered the more often your input is passed to the game, meaning that movement and stuff feels a lot smoother. Another reason is that you are further from the point where motion starts to look wrong as far as your optic nerve is concerned, so if you lose a few frames it's not as noticeable.
Also, your display is usually updating at 50 - 60hz, not 30
jim-jam bongs said:Engines usually read input before they begin to draw a frame, so the more frames being rendered the more often your input is passed to the game, meaning that movement and stuff feels a lot smoother. Another reason is that you are further from the point where motion starts to look wrong as far as your optic nerve is concerned, so if you lose a few frames it's not as noticeable.
Also, your display is usually updating at 50 - 60hz, not 30
Yeah, I figured it out after I posted. I'm a bit slow today :/
Thanks!
plagiarize
Banned
if you can't perceive the difference, you can't perceive a smooth 60 fps, and should thus have spent your money in a different way if you have a dual GPU setup. because you could have achieved the same (perceived) result for cheaper.JaseC said:
i'm with Dark10x when it comes to motion inconsistancy. i wasted a fuckload of money buying a 9800 GX2... i'm just always hoping to help anyone else make the same mistake. this wasn't an issue i was told about, and only then could see, this was something i saw for myself, and found the ugly truth out about while researching what might be causing it. if it wasn't bad enough that cheaper cards were out performing my card in terms of framerate on the games that didn't have SLi support ready for launch, it was even worse that when those inferior cards were enough to hit a locked 60 fps, they were outputting smoother gameplay.
for any games where i could hit 60 fps with only one of my GPUs, that's what i did... but yeah i felt like i wasted so much money.
and, brain_stew! you're back! awesome
Thrakier, at this point, based on everything you've said, yeah, i think you're *unfortunate* enough to be like Dark10x and I in terms of how sensitive you are to inconsistant motion.
what's probably happening at 80 fps is that you're tearing relatively low, or high down the image, so some of your extra frames are barely displayed, and even though you're seeing at least a bit of each frame, it still appears to be a frame 'skip' or a stutter.
going back to console would only really help in so far as locking you down to 30 fps, which you can do for yourself on pc if that's less annoying than 50 to 60 fps triple buffered.
ACH1LL3US
Member
Thrakier, don't give up on pc gaming, yes there are some hurdles but in the end IMO its worth it.
I would try to get the games your running to be at either 30 or preferably 60 fps. Lower some of the ingame options until you obtain a constant 60 and enable vsync. Things should be golden from there!
I would try to get the games your running to be at either 30 or preferably 60 fps. Lower some of the ingame options until you obtain a constant 60 and enable vsync. Things should be golden from there!
plagiarize
Banned
i don't no. something you could potentially do to alleviate this, is to get a monitor that accepts (and displays) a 120 hz signal. you'll perceive less judder at framerates such as 50 with a monitor that refreshes 120 times a second (but only if you can output to it at that rate).Thrakier said:
jim-jam bongs
Member
Thrakier, did you try the FPS limiter I posted earlier?
plagiarize
Banned
he came back from the dead to educate people about microstuttering. he really DOES care a lot about microstuttering.TheExodu5 said:
My advice is to live with and accept it.
It's there and you will have a battle trying to get rid of it.
I give up on PC gaming after witcher 2 after doing all I could to make games run 60FPS smooth, I now game solely on the consoles and although the games are not smooth, at least I know they are the best they can be and I can't tinker with the settings.
I used to spend more time trying to get my PC games running properly rather than playing on them and that was with a GTX580 and 2600K.
It's there and you will have a battle trying to get rid of it.
I give up on PC gaming after witcher 2 after doing all I could to make games run 60FPS smooth, I now game solely on the consoles and although the games are not smooth, at least I know they are the best they can be and I can't tinker with the settings.
I used to spend more time trying to get my PC games running properly rather than playing on them and that was with a GTX580 and 2600K.
plagiarize
Banned
tweak addiction is a serious thing. fortunately i am immune to it. once i get a relatively stable 60, i don't worry about overhead. if a game has an autodetect settings (and it isn't broken) i am happy to miss out on an effect or two, to enjoy the good performance, and the lack of tweak addiction.Marco1 said:
nothing is worse than getting a game running perfectly, only for the next level to be more intensive and fuck everything up.
jim-jam bongs
Member
Thrakier said:Read the OT.But thanks anyway.
?
I did...
plagiarize
Banned
i think it would have to be an extreme condition of it, but i can see how at some point you aren't playing the game any more, you're just continually tweaking to try and balance visuals vs performance. in a game where performance is inconsistant, i can see it driving you mad.TheExodu5 said:Damn, I guess the dark10x syndrome is contagious.
for marco1, i guess the only way to escape it was to go completely cold turkey. save himself, from himself.
jim-jam bongs
Member
I'm driven more mad by inconsistencies in console games than PC games. You know why?
Because I can't do a goddamned thing about them.
Because I can't do a goddamned thing about them.
brain_stew
Member
Your monitor refreshes 60 times a second, once every 16.7ms. Lock your frame rate at 60 fps then (all else being equal) each frame will be shown once for 16.7ms each. Drop to 59fps then one of those frames will be displayed twice, leading to inconstant motion.Thrakier said:
Why do you think so many console games run with a capped 30fps?
brain_stew
Member
I never went away, I just don't post as much because of work and lack of interest. I spend more time in off topic these days.TheExodu5 said:
I'm more interested in mobile hardware these days anyway, very little decent discussion about various SOCs on GAF unfortunately.
Exactly, I am my own worst enemy with these things and others could probably live with it but I approached PC gaming with the mindset that surely after spending so much on hardware the game should run faultless but I suppose the tweaking is a part of PC gaming and you should learn to work with that side of it.plagiarize said:
plagiarize
Banned
but that's the thing, you have to accept it and just enjoy the game. because as you say, there's nothing you can do about, so you aren't thinking 'maybe if i change this setting... let's test that for a few minutes... okay this is looking good, but wait... damnit! not that one. let's try the next one...'.jim-jam bongs said:
you just tolerate it and stay 'in the fiction'.
and i don't think this applies to many people. marco1 is clearly an extreme here, but i can comprehend how he could have felt the need to just deny himself the options and deal with inferior graphics, in order to force himself not to keep tweaking.
Marco1 said:
Yeah, that's me.
Anyway, tested Hard Reset with Triple Buffering forced by D3D Overrider. It's smoother than what Hard Reset offers by itself and is much lighter on the perforamcen (15FPS in the same scene!) but yeah...everything below 60FPS stutters. That's just the way it is I guess. I might have to overlook this as it seems.
Also tested Dirt 3. It's superb locked at 60FPS and looks stunning. With Vsync. With Vsync off the FPS shoots over 60 and it's stuttering like it's running with 18FPS...what is this mischief? I thought it's supposed to NOT stutter with Vsync off?
jim-jam bongs
Member
plagiarize said:
Oh I understand the concept for sure, I was just reiterating how silly it is, but I'm ridiculously finicky about frame rate and IQ. The only console game this generation which has really impressed me on either front is a Wii game (SMG) which is pretty funny when you think about it.
Most games on the sub-HD twins look and run like total ass, at least in the ways I care about.
brain_stew
Member
Its still outputting 50 unique frames every second so there's a hell of a lot more visual information, the frames are just not being output at a regular rate. So its "smoother" but not 100% consistent, hence the subtle juddering.goodfella said:
Do monitors in the US not let you set the refresh rate at 50hz? If you do that and stay steady at 50fps then you'll get none if the judder mentioned.
jim-jam bongs
Member
brain_stew said:
I'm in Australia, but they do here. One weird thing is that my (cheapo) HDTV only offers 59/60hz for most resolutions which seems odd to me.
krameriffic
Member
I have been noticing frame lag in TF2 ever since one of the more recent updates. It's something that you just see and feel when you move the mouse around. Compared to the 120Hz I'm used to, it feels like poo. It's one of those things that crops up from time to time due to game updates and driver BS, or even simple things like processes running on your system that shouldn't be.
brain_stew
Member
Try capping framerate at 30fps and using triple buffering, that's probably your best chance at constant motion.Thrakier said:
brain_stew
Member
Dxtory works much better.jim-jam bongs said:
plagiarize
Banned
generally no. which is unfortunate to say the least.brain_stew said:
krameriffic said:
I noticed Portal 2 has pretty bad mouse lag with triple buffering on. It goes away if I set it to double buffered in the game instead. See if you can do that with TF2.
edit: hmmm...no option to double buffer it in TF2. There must be a way to force it.
edit2: just tried TF2. Even though it has triple buffering forced, they're definitely using a custom implementation that reduces input lag. Input lag is comparable to double buffered. Maybe it's a driver issue?
jim-jam bongs
Member
brain_stew said:
I've not heard of it before actually, looks like a Japanese Fraps -- Frapanese if you will. I dunno if I can justify the $45AUD since I already have Fraps tho.
I can't set my monitor to 50HZ either, only my TV...
Whatever, that's a video from that shooter demo ABOVE 60FPS!!!
http://www.youtube.com/user/FBSeph#p/u/1/Q1GD_HS_T5Q
The other one is locked at 60FPS however YT introduced some judder so it looks basically the same...rest assured locked 60FPS is super smooth.
@Brain_Stew
Why should I lock a game to 30FPS which runs at 60 80% of the time? Sounds like something I don't want to do. It's like using only a fraction of your systems performance.
Uploading Withcer 2 Videos now, I hope YT shows the problem...
Whatever, that's a video from that shooter demo ABOVE 60FPS!!!
http://www.youtube.com/user/FBSeph#p/u/1/Q1GD_HS_T5Q
The other one is locked at 60FPS however YT introduced some judder so it looks basically the same...rest assured locked 60FPS is super smooth.
@Brain_Stew
Why should I lock a game to 30FPS which runs at 60 80% of the time? Sounds like something I don't want to do. It's like using only a fraction of your systems performance.
Uploading Withcer 2 Videos now, I hope YT shows the problem...
jim-jam bongs
Member
Thrakier said:
The very same reason I suggested it I'd assume, because it's the solution to the problem you created this thread about.
plagiarize
Banned
well, if 30 fps is less annoying to you than judder, you can lock at 30, and then unless you're already maxing out all the options in game, you dial a few things up to make it look prettier, without pushing your minimum framerate below 30.Thrakier said:
so you aren't 'wasting' your system. you're just rendering fewer frames with more detail in, and getting smoother motion.
brain_stew
Member
Because you want consistent motion judging by every post of yours in this thread. If your PC can't manage it at 60fps then 30fps is your only option unless your monitor lets you set the refresh rate to 50hz.Thrakier said:
jim-jam bongs said:
Sorry I didn't answer. I'm using a frame limiter and yes, it makes the game much smoother.
Does feel weird to use some small japanese strange video whatever program to actually make "big" pc games playable. Something is wrong here I guess. Whatever.Any answer to my Dirt 3 question? Uploading TW2 videos now...
brain_stew
Member
There's a free version.jim-jam bongs said:
plagiarize
Banned
or he can somewhat reduce the judder with a 120 hz monitor. dunno if that's an option for him though.brain_stew said:
http://www.asus.com/Display/LCD_Monitors/VG278H/
is a great pick if you have an nvidia card and want to get into 3D gaming too.
TheExodu5 said:
Still downloading...sorry.
Acutally, this is the stuttering Hard Reset Video. VSync off, about 70FPS. And it runs like that:
http://www.youtube.com/user/FBSeph#p/u/0/NSJp-n_30U8
Now that I think about, it's the same for Dirt 3. No VSync and no 60FPS = very noticable stutter. I don't think that's just me being sensible for that. It's really really noticable.
brain_stew
Member
Nvidia are supposed to be adding a frame limiter to their drivers in a future revision.Thrakier said:Sorry I didn't answer. I'm using a frame limiter and yes, it makes the game much smoother.
Any answer to my Dirt 3 question? Uploading TW2 videos now...
plagiarize
Banned
that's just the way it is. with anything. with a console. with a PC. if you can see motion judder, you can see it, and you can't make it go away unless you can make each unique frame display for the same amount of time. vsync will achieve that if you can hold 60 fps (on single GPU setups). as will double buffered vsync if you can't (in combination with a frame limiter if the game sometimes hits 60, to keep it locked at 30).Thrakier said:
the other thing that can help, is getting a display with a higher refresh rate. cause then at 59 fps, instead of every frame being display once, apart from one a second which is displayed twice, at 120 hz, every frame will be displayed twice, apart from two frames a second which will be displayed three times. so the difference isn't 1 vs 2, but 2 vs 3.
brain_stew
Member
Again that's normal and, its should be happening as your GPU is flipping to a new frame before it finishes drawing the last one. This is why vsync was invented, there's no reason to draw more frames than your monitor can display.Thrakier said:
Really, the "problem" here isn't anything new or PC specific, it's simply a limitation of display technology and always has been. It affects everything from PCs to consoles to mobile phones.
brain_stew said:
Any chance that ATI will do the same then? I still can compose a new system because I can return the one I have at the moment.
Witcher 2, VSYnc off (doesn't make a difference in this case), around 40FPS:
http://www.youtube.com/user/FBSeph#p/u/1/frgto0CSMIs
Witcher 2, VSync off, locked at 30FPS with frame limiter:
http://www.youtube.com/user/FBSeph#p/u/0/NrKyPes2fX8
It's not perfect but I hope you gys can notice the difference. Can you?
EDIT:
Btw, how come that "pro gamers" try to get above 100FPS and so on if it starts stuttering...I don't get that part.