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Micro Stuttering in PC Games

Thrakier said:
Any chance that ATI will do the same then? I still can compose a new system because I can return the one I have at the moment.

Witcher 2, VSYnc off (doesn't make a difference in this case), around 40FPS:

http://www.youtube.com/user/FBSeph#p/u/1/frgto0CSMIs

Witcher 2, VSync off, locked at 30FPS with frame limiter:

http://www.youtube.com/user/FBSeph#p/u/0/NrKyPes2fX8

It's not perfect but I hope you gys can notice the difference. Can you?

EDIT:

Btw, how come that "pro gamers" try to get above 100FPS and so on if it starts stuttering...I don't get that part.
It's ATI, so no, absolutely no chance of that.

"Pro gamers" aren't primarily bothered about completely consistent motion, they want as much visual information and as little input lag as possible so they won't use vsync at all. Getting over 100 fps as an average is often necessary if you don't wasn't any drops below 60fps.
 
I remember going crazy trying to fix this in FFXIV. Literally crazy. At one point I almost bought a new video card. I eventually just gave up which was probably for the best since lolff14

Definitely wasn't the HDD either-- I put the game and my entire OS on an SSD and nothing changed.
 
So...what the video shows is motion stutter because of floating FPS?

I'd l ike a NVIDIA card but they offer nothing on the level of a 6870... :(
 
MomoPufflet said:
I remember going crazy trying to fix this in FFXIV. Literally crazy. At one point I almost bought a new video card. I eventually just gave up which was probably for the best since lolff14

Definitely wasn't the HDD either-- I put the game and my entire OS on an SSD and nothing changed.

Did it look like in my Witcher videos? ATI card?
 
TheExodu5 said:
Just to be fair to SLI/Crossfire though, if you have 60fps vsynced, you should not be experiencing microstuttering at all. Dual-GPU related microstuttering happens when you have a sub 60fps framerate and when the game doesn't use a proper Crossfire/SLI profile. Battlefield 3, for example, makes very good use of dual-GPUs and I don't experience any microstuttering whatsoever.

If you are experiencing stuttering when locked to 30fps/60fps, it's not something that's curable by going to a single GPU setup...it's a separate issue altogether.
You will still experience microstutter at a locked 60fps. It just won't be as noticeable. But I'm really sensitive to it so it feels more like 60 with drops than a locked 60.
 
I made two new videos. This time, Metro 2033. You can see the same behavior as in TW2 and other games which are not locked at a certain framerate.

Metro 2033 locked @30FPS:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cyInvoQRmI

Metro 2033 framerate fluctuating between 32 and 38:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F_3oxX5wdm4

Mind you that YT introduces some minor stutter anyway, but you should clearly see the weird behavior. You can see how the gun sometimes just "jumps" a few frames and then the scrolling goes back to normal.

MY GOD what IS that!?? I so hope it's gone with an NVIDIA card...
 
It's indeed judder introduced through monitor refresh rate problems. So everyone who's using a 60hz monitor with an unlocked framerate (above or under 60/30) should habe this kind of judder.

You GAF-people, why don't you notice it? Why is it only me??? (and two or three other guys...)

Best setting is (for TW2): Dxtory locked to 30, NO Vsync. This is 100% smooth and has no input lag...but oh my god it tears like hell. Is the amount of tearing an engine problem? You definitly don't want to play it with that much tearing. With 30FPS and VSync it doesn't tear but isn't as smooth either. It stutters a bit. You'll notice it when panning around the camera slowly. I also notice it when I'm going fast but maybe that's just me.

However, is there ANY workaround or "fix" to get rid of it completly? I don't no why it still judders @locked 30, probably becuase the locked 30 isn't a 100% but just a 90% drop. In theory I guess it could also be 29,6 or 30,4, thus it results in tearing when VSYnc is off. So every tearing artifact is essentially a stutter with Vsync on. Is that correct?


EDIT:

Fucking TW2, it's so pronounced in that game that I noticed it and now I can see it in every game...like infamous 2. World will never be the same again. Shit.
 
It kinda itches me...I can't be the only one noticing that problem!? Everyone should be affected, but on one is complaining?
 
TheExodu5 said:
^120Hz isn't going to do much to alleviate the problem. The only thing it will do is give him an extra double buffered step (24Hz).

You still haven't tried TF2?
If 'steady' framerate is very close to 24 or 40 fps the help can be significant.
Personally, I cannot wait 480hz displays as the problem pretty much vanishes at that point. ;)
 
vocab said:
The only games where I get true micro stutter is GTA IV, Oblivion, Fallout 3, and Nyx Quest. The Witcher was bad, but it fixed it self magically.
Only game where I get stuttering is GTA IV.

I've tried all some things but nothing seems to work.

Can anyone recommend a way to stop GTA IV stuttering - running a radeon 6770 512 mb.
It would make my month. I love this game, but the stuttering is terrible!
 
MomoPufflet said:
I remember going crazy trying to fix this in FFXIV. Literally crazy. At one point I almost bought a new video card. I eventually just gave up which was probably for the best since lolff14

Definitely wasn't the HDD either-- I put the game and my entire OS on an SSD and nothing changed.
You can't fix something that isn't broken. So far the op has only posted about normal expected behaviour, which affects all gaming devices. Despite the thread title, this has nothing to do with micro stutter.
 
Thrakier said:
It's indeed judder introduced through monitor refresh rate problems. So everyone who's using a 60hz monitor with an unlocked framerate (above or under 60/30) should habe this kind of judder.

You GAF-people, why don't you notice it? Why is it only me??? (and two or three other guys...)

Best setting is (for TW2): Dxtory locked to 30, NO Vsync. This is 100% smooth and has no input lag...but oh my god it tears like hell. Is the amount of tearing an engine problem? You definitly don't want to play it with that much tearing. With 30FPS and VSync it doesn't tear but isn't as smooth either. It stutters a bit. You'll notice it when panning around the camera slowly. I also notice it when I'm going fast but maybe that's just me.

However, is there ANY workaround or "fix" to get rid of it completly? I don't no why it still judders @locked 30, probably becuase the locked 30 isn't a 100% but just a 90% drop. In theory I guess it could also be 29,6 or 30,4, thus it results in tearing when VSYnc is off. So every tearing artifact is essentially a stutter with Vsync on. Is that correct?


EDIT:

Fucking TW2, it's so pronounced in that game that I noticed it and now I can see it in every game...like infamous 2. World will never be the same again. Shit.
Either alter settings or upgrade your hardware until you can manage a locked 60fps (and that's locked via vsync, no other way). That's the only sure fire solution.
 
brain_stew said:
Either alter settings or upgrade your hardware until you can manage a locked 60fps (and that's locked via vsync, no other way). That's the only sure fire solution.

Hm. In the case of TW2 even with 30/60FPS locked and VSync I get minor stuttering. It's not half as bad as with a fluctuating framerate but it's still there. The fix is to turn off VSync but man you get tearing from hell if you do that. That's unbearable.
 
Hey gaf,

So I've been playing games on my setup (GTX580, i7 920, 6gigs ram) for a while and everything has been perfectly smooth using d3doverrider or in-game v-sync. I'd been playing RAGE for 7 hours and it was smooth 60fps and never paused for a second no matter how much was going on.

Then one day, yesterday, I loaded my game in RAGE and suddenly I'm getting THE WORST MICRO-STUTTER I'VE EVER SEEN. The game has literally become unplayable as every 5 seconds it freezes for a half second and then jumps which makes twitch combat very difficult and not fun. Even when there's no enemies, just walking around it keeps stutter every few seconds. Otherwise it's 60fps but every few seconds it freezes and skips. It was perfectly fine before yesterday.

I can't remember if I changed anything. I may have shut down my computer (I usually leave it on for months 24/7) and then turned it back on a few hours later. I did that recently but I can't remember if it was right before this started. I don't know if I did any windows updates or installed anything. Nothing really comes to mind.

Any ideas on what might have happened? I want to finish RAGE but I need to fix this stuttering first :(
 
Hey gaf,

So I've been playing games on my setup (GTX580, i7 920, 6gigs ram) for a while and everything has been perfectly smooth using d3doverrider or in-game v-sync. I'd been playing RAGE for 7 hours and it was smooth 60fps and never paused for a second no matter how much was going on.

Then one day, yesterday, I loaded my game in RAGE and suddenly I'm getting THE WORST MICRO-STUTTER I'VE EVER SEEN. The game has literally become unplayable as every 5 seconds it freezes for a half second and then jumps which makes twitch combat very difficult and not fun. Even when there's no enemies, just walking around it keeps stutter every few seconds. Otherwise it's 60fps but every few seconds it freezes and skips. It was perfectly fine before yesterday.

I can't remember if I changed anything. I may have shut down my computer (I usually leave it on for months 24/7) and then turned it back on a few hours later. I did that recently but I can't remember if it was right before this started. I don't know if I did any windows updates or installed anything. Nothing really comes to mind.

Any ideas on what might have happened? I want to finish RAGE but I need to fix this stuttering first :(
Not microstutter but I know RAGE did that for me but very infrequently. It did not happen at launch or after any tweak or patch I could pinpoint. For me the problem is so intermittent I ignore it. To me it seemed like old school HD lag so I would try closing other apps and maybe lowering your texture sizes so less memory is moving around.
 
My PC got hit with the microstutter stick recently, Skyrim and DOWII are especially bad cases. No idea what causes it or how to fix it.

RAM, VRAM, CPU load, GPU load all at half, temperatures all well within norms, no HDD defragmentation at all, fresh video card drivers, underclocking. Nothing works.
 
still don't see it and i am sensitive to games that are under 60FPS. then again for certain games (Alice, space marine) I go one GTX 580 for PhysX and the other for graphics while all the other games get SLI and it all works out well.
 
Might as well post this again.

http://techreport.com/articles.x/21516
Inside the second: A new look at game benchmarking

Why FPS fails
As you no doubt know, nearly all video game benchmarks are based on a single unit of measure, the ubiquitous FPS, or frames per second. FPS is a nice instant summary of performance, expressed in terms that are relatively easy to understand. After all, your average geek tends to know that movies happen at 24 FPS and television at 30 FPS, and any PC gamer who has done any tuning probably has a sense of how different frame rates "feel" in action.

Of course, there are always debates over benchmarking methods, and the usual average FPS score has come under fire repeatedly over the years for being too broad a measure. We've been persuaded by those arguments, so for quite a while now, we have provided average and low FPS rates from our benchmarking runs and, when possible, graphs of frame rates over time. We think that information gives folks a better sense of gaming performance than just an average FPS number.

Still, even that approach has some obvious weaknesses. We've noticed them at times when results from our FRAPS-based testing didn't seem to square with our seat-of-the-pants experience. The fundamental problem is that, in terms of both computer time and human visual perception, one second is a very long time. Averaging results over a single second can obscure some big and important performance differences between systems.

To illustrate, let's look at an example. It's contrived, but it's based on some real experiences we've had in game testing over the years. The charts below show the times required, in milliseconds, to produce a series of frames over a span of one second on two different video cards.
 
You will still experience microstutter at a locked 60fps. It just won't be as noticeable. But I'm really sensitive to it so it feels more like 60 with drops than a locked 60.
I'm trying to figure out what the hell I was talking about because BF3 is smooth as glass with crossfire now. Maybe I had bad drivers?
 
Ive never seen microstutter on my PC in my life. Stuttering when loading from hard drive ive seen, but never microstuttering. Ive also always used a single gpu if that matters.

edit- and i SEE shit.
 
Ive never seen microstutter on my PC in my life. Stuttering when loading from hard drive ive seen, but never microstuttering. Ive also always used a single gpu if that matters.

edit- and i SEE shit.

Well, microstuttering per say is a dual-GPU issue. What most people are talking about I would describe as 'juddering'. It means that some frames are repeated. Even if you achieve a locked 60fps, your display might be slightly out of sync with the video card with results in one frame being displayed twice every now and then.

Some games manage to avoid this issue entirely (Assassin's Creed 2 and Brotherhood are good examples I can think of), while others don't fare as well (The Witcher 2).

Other games have even more serious issues related to stutter, such as STALKER and Oblivion/FO3 (both games can stutter heavily when looking at light sources, for some reason). Another example I can think of with serious stutter issues is Deus Ex HR, which stutters heavily in DX9 mode, but is smooth in DX11 mode. Oddly, the stutter in STALKER, Oblivion/FO3, and Deus Ex HR feels different than the usual stutter...but I'm not sure how just yet. It feels as though only part of the frame is stuttering...maybe the camera isn't updating while the engine is? I'm not quite sure yet...

I still don't know what the root cause of the issue is, and how to avoid it from a development standpoint.
 
Well, I made an interesting discovery today. The HDTV that I use as a PC monitor actually supports a proper progressive 30hz refresh mode. I figured it would just be 1080i but nope, that's a separate option and this mode does indeed perfectly 1:1 map the image as it should.

I decided to boot up Alan Wake and sure enough, if I set my desktop refresh to 30hz beforehand it boots vsynced to that just fine. I crank absolutely everything to max and my Ti 560 448 doesn't stop a single frame and the motion is completely consistent with none of the judder a 30fps cap imposes. Its as smooth as Uncharted 2.

So the end goal that the op was looking for had been achieved unfortunately it appears you may need to buy a new TV to manage it. Sadly my Panny plasma doesn't support it.
 
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