• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Microsoft Cuts Indie Royalties in Half - confirmed in post #13.

harSon said:
I guess I'm looking through the eyes of an enthusiast. Experience, Potential recognition, and chances of entering the industry are more important then money IMO.

And then, once you've been there for 5 years, you want to run away! :lol No, the thing is, there's both types of people developing games. And for either of them, 35% is a raw deal, especially if Microsoft isn't doing anything more than just posting your content.
 

GhaleonEB

Member
trmas said:
This is typical Microsoft... don't know why ANYONE would be surprised.
It might be typical Microsoft, but I thought they had been good to 3rd parties and partners in the Xbox division. This move smacks of greed and could undermine the entire idea behind the indie developer initiative. It's as if they're saying, "hey, it's easier to develop on our system now, and in exchange for that we'll pay you half as much". Bad call.
 

DECK'ARD

The Amiga Brotherhood
harSon said:
I guess I'm looking through the eyes of an enthusiast. Experience, Potential recognition, and chances of entering the industry are more important then money IMO.

Thats no reason to rip artists off. There's stories of the nieve enthusiast who got into a creative industry (whether game, film, music) and got spat out the other side all over the place.

Starting out with that attitude in your royalty model is not right, especially when the industry is in dire need of some new blood and new ideas.

Digital distribution, and smaller development/production costs, is the only way realistically of this happening with the videogame industry now. So you either embrace and encourage it, or you try and exploit it. Speaking as someone who got disillusioned with how this industry worked a long time ago, I'd support the people who were trying to encourage it.
 

spwolf

Member
Evander said:
well, the dev vs. pub thing is what I'm also curious about here.

Because, to my limited understanding, when we're talking about these indie studios, we're talking about Microsoft being the pub.

On other XBLA games, MSoft hands a cut over to the pub, who decides how to share it with the Dev. Here, though, if MSoft is technically the pub, then that DOES make the situation different.



Not that I AGREE withtheir actions, but it does reorganize the situation a bit.


Publishing for XBLA title and for Gears of War is very different.

Marketing, download and payment processing costs for Microsoft on XBLA should be well under 5%. There is an huge difference there.

But that does not matter - what it matters is if MS actually gave them half of what they were giving them now... thats what definetly sucks.
 
harSon said:
I guess I'm looking through the eyes of an enthusiast. Experience, Potential recognition, and chances of entering the industry are more important then money IMO.
Well that depends how much you value the benefit of the XNA platform. Microsoft is giving you quite a big hand getting into the industry. So giving the bottom 35% rate Microsoft is saying- this is your first step in the door and we're helping you a lot. Established publishers only qualify for the higher 70% if you're doing the legwork yourself. Which arguably these developers are not.

If they feel they can develop the game without Microsoft's help then selling on PC, PS3 or Wii will no doubt yield better results.

It's not like you're getting nothing out of Microsoft for your 35%.
 

harSon

Banned
Microsoft is simply prepping indy developers for the real world. Shitty pay for a lot of work is common in the industry.

:p
 

DECK'ARD

The Amiga Brotherhood
Visualante said:
Well that depends how much you value the benefit of the XNA platform. Microsoft is giving you quite a big hand getting into the industry. So giving the bottom 35% rate Microsoft is saying- this is your first step in the door and we're helping you a lot. Established publishers only qualify for the higher 70% if you're doing the legwork yourself. Which arguably these developers are not.

If they feel they can develop the game without Microsoft's help then selling on PC, PS3 or Wii will no doubt yield better results.

It's not like you're not getting nothing out of Microsoft for your 35%.

That's all back to front.
 

besada

Banned
Nash said:
especially when the industry is in dire need of some new blood and new ideas.

Is it really? The industry is making more money now than they have in years and years. Why would the people laying out the money want to change that?
 
Come on guys, seriously... We all know Microsoft is not all about helping out the little guy. They're about making money, and occasionally putting out some top notch games, but champion of the garage dev they are not.
 

tanod

when is my burrito
MicVlaD said:
No, no they're not.

HOME is one of the few instances where they were right, but they did so by breaking an NDA that other major outlets also signed and exposing Sony's GDC surprise too soon. They cried like babies too when Sony (obviously) started to blackball them as a result.

They didn't break an NDA. None of the press knew about it until the night before the keynote.
 

WrikaWrek

Banned
besada said:
Is it really? The industry is making more money now than they have in years and years. Why would the people laying out the money want to change that?

He's going to cap me for a Kate Beckinsale Esquire photo Avatar that has no nudity and shows less skin that what you see everyday on the street?
 

GrayFoxPL

Member
I heard Sony pays PSN developers royalities in schoolgirls and ninja swords!

How can you refuse that?! I mean, a genuine ninja sword!
 

DECK'ARD

The Amiga Brotherhood
besada said:
Is it really? The industry is making more money now than they have in years and years. Why would the people laying out the money want to change that?

Yes really.

And one of the reasons the UK games industry (development side of things) has gone down the shitter since the end of the Amiga. And the end of low development costs, and (relative) freedom to do what the hell you wanted.

Hollywood may have a similar model for making loads of money from taking as little risks as possible, but there is also a far more established independent side where risk taking and creativity is encouraged. The games industry is still hopelessly immature on that side of things, because of the far greater barriers to entry.

Digital distribution is the only way of addressing that, and getting back to how things worked in the vastly more creative home computer times. Many of the people at the forefront of videogames development today are STILL the same people who were churning out games in those days.

No industry can survive off that for ever. You need to encourage fresh blood and give exposure to fresh ideas. And with the cost of production, distribution, and 90% of the risk removed from the equation, there is NO reason not to encourage it.
 

kevm3

Member
These developers wouldn't be so mad if Microsoft never offered the 70% rate initially. I would be mad too if I came in with the expectations of receiving 70% royalties, only to see that cut to 35% in one fell swoop. Don't up someone's expectations and then take the incentive away after a small time.
 
Evander said:
When you pick out the foil for your hat, do you go with the heavy duty?
One, that was unnecessary. Two, it made no sense relating to what I said. If MS is picking and choosing who gets the smaller piece of the pie like you said, who will get the shaft by MS? Why wouldn't it be the smaller less experienced indie developers? That's all I said. No need to be an asshole about it.

Unless I totally missunderstood where you were going with that comment.
 

tanod

when is my burrito
kevm3 said:
These developers wouldn't be so mad if Microsoft never offered the 70% rate initially. I would be mad too if I came in with the expectations of receiving 70% royalties, only to see that cut to 35% in one fell swoop. Don't up someone's expectations and then take the incentive away after a small time.

Small time?

The system's been out for 2 and a half years. They've set up a long precedent, making the change all the more significant.
 

xblarcade

Member
I'm pretty sure that their has never been a set % take across the board and each game is treated differently.

According to one of the co-founders of Garage Games, the developer can expect anywhere from 30% to 65% of the total revenue. Considering this was from a year and a half ago, I'm pretty sure that this isn't something new.

If I were to guess, I'd bet that a developer assumed they would be getting a large percentage and didn't, now they are complaining.
 

besada

Banned
WrikaWrek said:
He's going to cap me for a Kate Beckinsale Esquire photo Avatar that has no nudity and shows less skin that what you see everyday on the street?

Sp0rsk has the sensibilities of an 80 year old woman when it comes to things like that. I've seen people suffer for less.
 

FightyF

Banned
needlesmcgirk said:
Whoever said that 70% royalties is too high and 35% is more realistic is full of shit. The developer spends the time and resources to develop the game. Why should MS get 65% of the profits?

Because they've invested millions into XNA to allow people like you and I to make the games?

There are a lot of reasons why MS should get a cut, and a decent cut too.

But I think it would be smarter to consider the costs invested in making XNA to be an investment into the future of the console, rather than a product in an of itself that has to generate revenue for itself.

But so many people in this thread are looking at marketing and distribution costs...it has nothing to do with that. It has to do with XNA.

If you go to channel 9 (or whatever MS's website is) you can see a lot of vids on XNA and how they made it. It took years of development.
 

DECK'ARD

The Amiga Brotherhood
FightyF said:
Because they've invested millions into XNA to allow people like you and I to make the games?

There are a lot of reasons why MS should get a cut, and a decent cut too.

But I think it would be smarter to consider the costs invested in making XNA to be an investment into the future of the console, rather than a product in an of itself that has to generate revenue for itself.

But so many people in this thread are looking at marketing and distribution costs...it has nothing to do with that. It has to do with XNA.

If you go to channel 9 (or whatever MS's website is) you can see a lot of vids on XNA and how they made it. It took years of development.

And it's development was funded by countlesss other revenue streams.

There is still no reason to take the money out of the developer's pocket on an ongoing basis if you are genuine about encouraging smaller developers. The distribution model and costs are completely different, and you should play to it's strength not carry on in the same way as before.
 

avatar299

Banned
FightyF said:
Because they've invested millions into XNA to allow people like you and I to make the games?

There are a lot of reasons why MS should get a cut, and a decent cut too.

But I think it would be smarter to consider the costs invested in making XNA to be an investment into the future of the console, rather than a product in an of itself that has to generate revenue for itself.

But so many people in this thread are looking at marketing and distribution costs...it has nothing to do with that. It has to do with XNA.

If you go to channel 9 (or whatever MS's website is) you can see a lot of vids on XNA and how they made it. It took years of development.
And MS would have gotten money with the "old" system. They aren't losing anything on XNA.
 

FightyF

Banned
avatar299 said:
And MS would have gotten money with the "old" system. They aren't losing anything on XNA.

Well, I think that they should consider XNA a loss. Write it as a promotional expense.
 

Tiktaalik

Member
Wow that's not cool at all.

There have already been articles (such as this one) suggesting that indie games are actually too cheap, and that developers are having trouble making back their investment. This should make things even worse for these small companies.
 

FightyF

Banned
Tiktaalik said:
Wow that's not cool at all.

There have already been articles (such as this one) suggesting that indie games are actually too cheap, and that developers are having trouble making back their investment. This should make things even worse for these small companies.

That article is in reference to full fledged XBLA titles. This sort of stuff has to do with XNA.

For example, XBLA titles must pass a certain level of testing standards. You have to have official dev kits, and all sorts of stuff. The developers of N+ estimate XBLA start up costs to be around $125K.

Whereas with XNA, your game is running on XNA, managed code. The tools to create XNA games are completely free, and you need to pay $99 a year to deploy to your 360 and be part of Creator's Club (that is, if you're not a student).

So the costs of creating an XNA game are next to nothing compared to XBLA titles.

XNA and XBLA are two different things.

Thanks for the article though, interesting look on things, I agree with its thesis, some XBLA games can afford to be higher priced.
 

Mojovonio

Banned
FightyF said:
I don't get it...usually when people do this sort of thing, it makes sense given the context of the thread, and it's usually pretty funny. Your comment...doesn't really fit into either catagory...

He's new.

YOU BITCHES WANT SOME OF DIS GREEN?

oqytft.gif
 
It's true. Much of my contract work is on XBLA games, and my clients are diversifying, if not moving off the platform completely. Only publishers will keep the old rates; developers who self-fund their games get the new, smaller rate.

It is amazing how clueless MS is when it comes to running XBLA. First they say it's going to be a place for indie companies to publish; now they want major publishers instead. The wanted original games; now they want ports of existing titles. At first they wanted retro and casual games like XBLA for the original Xbox; now they want stuff with more substance. At first they wanted action games only, then they wanted board games after Uno succeeded; now they don't because the more recent ones did poorly. They wanted games to support the camera, but they couldn't sell the stupid thing because they themselves did so little to support it. They basically have no idea why the platform was successful and how to make it bigger in the future--instead, they flail around demanding more of what has worked recently.

Part of it is because you have changes in personnel and internal battles in the XBLA division, but part of it is because it's a new thing for consoles, and MS and innovation coincide only by sheer accident. They don't recognize it when they see it, they don't know what to do with it when it's sitting in their laps, and they most certainly do not know how to stimulate it intentionally.
 

FightyF

Banned
Open Source said:
Part of it is because you have changes in personnel and internal battles in the XBLA division, but part of it is because it's a new thing for consoles, and MS and innovation coincide only by sheer accident. They don't recognize it when they see it, they don't know what to do with it when it's sitting in their laps, and they most certainly do not know how to stimulate it intentionally.

That seems so true...

Looking at the Yahoo aquisition rumours, it just told me that MS didn't have the skills to create their own rival service and had to resort to buying innovative products, rather than making their own more competitive.

News this like XNA royalty thing reaffirms that.

But you say you were contracted for XBLA stuff, is XBLA featuring the same cut?

-addendum-
because if this is true for XBLA titles, this news is teh MEGATON.
 

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
Bait 'n Switch total :s

I'm not sure what PSN's royalties are like, but if they're in the >50% range, I hope they stay that way.

I know Steam's are higher like that too, so hopefully Valve doesn't get any ideas either.
 

LJ11

Member
Pretty dumb move if you ask me.

Then again Sony needs to step up and let Indies self publish games.

Sucks for independents.
 

h3ro

Member
Microsoft's BS PR response from Kotaku:

Xbox LIVE Arcade has long been known as the premier destination for digitally distributed original and classic games - making it a very appealing platform for game developers. We don't disclose details on our business contracts, but what we can tell you is that we work closely with all of our partners to provide the Xbox 360 community with the best entertainment possible while making publishing a title on XBLA an attractive prospect.

http://kotaku.com/359750/microsoft-responds-to-royalties-cut-rumor

So since they avoided the topic altoghter, MS = scumlords confirmed?? (I'm keeding guys, keeding)

Also we shouldn't jump to conclusions, who knows if Nintendo and Sony give that percentage either?
 
Top Bottom