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Microsoft Responds to Optimized Launch Game Performance Issues

Aguero9320

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All depends on how usable that power is. There's alot more to it then just teraflops. These early comparison have already proven that.

It being more powerful doesn’t depend on how usable that power is at all.

It either is, or isn’t more powerful.

Now will devs manage to max it out? Only time will tell. And that ‘time’ is not three weeks and a Ubisoft game.
 
Mar 27, 2020
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Uncharted bunghole
It being more powerful doesn’t depend on how usable that power is at all.

It either is, or isn’t more powerful.

Now will devs manage to max it out? Only time will tell. And that ‘time’ is not three weeks and a Ubisoft game.

Actually how usable that power is does make a difference. That's why we haven't seen the XSX take a large lead in multiplats yet.

You can either use those 12TFs or you can't.
 

Gravemind

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All depends on how usable that power is. There's alot more to it then just teraflops. These early comparison have already proven that.

The games being compared right now were in production long before the specs of these consoles were even known, let alone finalized. For example, Valhalla started development roughly 3 years ago.

These early comparisons have more to do with development and optimization than the technical power of either of these consoles. You are very right about there being more to performance than teraflops. Cant disagree there.

Early comparisons however, are just that. They are good for a good fanboy jab here and there, but not much else. I think comparisons done a couple of years into the generation should be a lot more telling. Even then, I suspect the performance of these boxes to be quite similar in the end.

For those who own both, I think it will come down to which controller, service, online community etc they prefer, rather than the "power" of the box.
 
Mar 27, 2020
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Uncharted bunghole
The games being compared right now were in production long before the specs of these consoles were even known, let alone finalized. For example, Valhalla started development roughly 3 years ago.

These early comparisons have more to do with development and optimization than the technical power of either of these consoles. You are very right about there being more to performance than teraflops. Cant disagree there.

Early comparisons however, are just that. They are good for a good fanboy jab here and there, but not much else. I think comparisons done a couple of years into the generation should be a lot more telling. Even then, I suspect the performance of these boxes to be quite similar in the end.

For those who own both, I think it will come down to which controller, service, online community etc they prefer, rather than the "power" of the box.

Just really weird that Microsoft were pushing the specifications so hard when they knew what the initial results were going to be.

Games will get better for both systems with time. And I agree that we should wait for more comparisons before declaring either one as having better performance than the other.

But what I think we can all agree on is that there isn't a massive delta between the two. The only ones who should feel bad about that are those that were heavily invested in what people like Dealer and Blue were saying.
 

Kumomeme

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Yeah obviously the earlier the better! but I think both Sony and MS released their dev stuff as soon as they could... again maybe due to Direct X MS had more work to do and were waiting on AMD, maybe Sony didn't have as much to wait on due to their custom stuff.

I also don't know how much impact covid had on both but again given the extra work MS had to do (PC & Xbox X/S) I would suspect it would have impacted them more than Sony due to the simple fact they had more to do.

Now you could say they should have started earlier ...but that may have not been possible. It may seem like I'm making excuses :) but I'm a software dev and fully aware of all the shit that happens!

I do think that over the years they should have done more and focused more on Direct X development, enabling better lower level access to hardware and pushed adoption of the new versions. DX12 has been available for ages but in many cases is slower than DX11 when a game has versions for both.

The thing to remember is that currently the lack of optimisation doesn't matter that much, both consoles are sold out... it may matter in a few months time when both have inventory on store shelves and undecided people are making their choices.

Having said that... I don't think you will see a big performance differential anyway. I expect the X will ultimately perform a little bit better than the ps5 on the majority of titles and I doubt it will be hugely noticeable in multi plats.. everything will use DRS anyway and unless your pixel counting your not going to notice in fast moving action scenes that stress both consoles.

I'm more excited in the AI resolution upscaling tech AMD are making to complete with NVidia's DLSS 2, AMD have allot of work to do to catch up though so I'm tempering my expectations.
I agree with you about we wont see much performance different. I too believe XSX will end up, or should has bit better lead in performance but i too agree there wont be huge different in both. Atleast this time, compared to last gen, both console is close together in term of performance than the gap we have at beginning of last generations.

AMD ML might be game changing this generation.. hopefully we see something. This not just benefit players, but surely gonna give more option for developers.
 
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Bitmap Frogs

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It being more powerful doesn’t depend on how usable that power is at all.

It either is, or isn’t more powerful.

Now will devs manage to max it out? Only time will tell. And that ‘time’ is not three weeks and a Ubisoft game.

Yes, it depends on that. A 500 hosepower engine attach to a crappy CVT automatic won't be faster than a 400 horsepower engine attached to a dual clutch auto. You get the idea.
 

phil_t98

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Just really weird that Microsoft were pushing the specifications so hard when they knew what the initial results were going to be.

Games will get better for both systems with time. And I agree that we should wait for more comparisons before declaring either one as having better performance than the other.

But what I think we can all agree on is that there isn't a massive delta between the two. The only ones who should feel bad about that are those that were heavily invested in what people like Dealer and Blue were saying.

but are the specs a lie? its like sony pushing the SSD to be so much faster when the reality so far is a few seconds here and there. Sony fans will tell you that the games aint fully optimised for full use of the SSD yet and I would agree but the same can be said of games not being fully optimised for both consoles specs
 

REDRZA MWS

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but are the specs a lie? its like sony pushing the SSD to be so much faster when the reality so far is a few seconds here and there. Sony fans will tell you that the games aint fully optimised for full use of the SSD yet and I would agree but the same can be said of games not being fully optimised for both consoles specs

Wow, someone with actual common sense! Refreshing around here.
 

MilkyJoe

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Just really weird that Microsoft were pushing the specifications so hard when they knew what the initial results were going to be.

Games will get better for both systems with time. And I agree that we should wait for more comparisons before declaring either one as having better performance than the other.

But what I think we can all agree on is that there isn't a massive delta between the two. The only ones who should feel bad about that are those that were heavily invested in what people like Dealer and Blue were saying.

:messenger_grinning_squinting:
 

BeardGawd

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All depends on how usable that power is. There's alot more to it then just teraflops. These early comparison have already proven that.

Am I the only one sick of hearing this? It's a nice punchline but literally no one here is only comparing teraflops. No one.

Can we get the mods to ban this phrase please? It's so disingenuous.

I'm only half way joking but it's super annoying.
 
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BLAUcopter

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Am I the only one sick of hearing this? It's a nice punchline but literally no one here is only comparing teraflops. No one.

Can we get the mods to ban this phrase please? It's so disingenuous.

I'm only half way joking but it's super annoying.
lol, cancel culture has infected the console wars! Bailout.gif
 
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daninthemix

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Come, friends. Let us all agree that the differences between the two consoles are miniscule.

PC on the other hand is vastly more powerful, as always.
 

Panajev2001a

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Am I the only one sick of hearing this? It's a nice punchline but literally no one here is only comparing teraflops. No one.

Can we get the mods to ban this phrase please? It's so disingenuous.

I'm only half way joking but it's super annoying.

Maybe not as much anymore for some unknown reason ( :rolleyes: ) but you really expect people to forget the last six months happened :LOL:?
 
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jimbojim

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MS also never indicated that there would be that sort of performance gap. It's mostly Playstation fans finding some random quote on Twitter and using it like it came from MS directly

Oh, yes, MS did indicated, but not directly. Greenberg's is just a prove of that. Greenberg isn't some random.
Btw. You remember Phil Spencer's words?

Xbox Boss Phil Spencer 'Felt Good' After Seeing PS5 Reveal

Blaming PS community because MS fucked up some things is a pathetic move. For all FUD crap about PS5 spreaded by Xbox community in last 10 months, especially Discord members, what is happening now for XSX is well deserved
 
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Shmunter

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We believe in generations. Hides cross generation games until pre orders start. I say that is the biggest broken promise this generation.
Yeah, that’s pretty despicable. So far it’s true for Spider-Man & Horizon. God Of War will be the acid test.
 
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Mar 27, 2020
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Uncharted bunghole
but are the specs a lie? its like sony pushing the SSD to be so much faster when the reality so far is a few seconds here and there. Sony fans will tell you that the games aint fully optimised for full use of the SSD yet and I would agree but the same can be said of games not being fully optimised for both consoles specs

Well the truth is there's alot more to specifications then what you see on paper. It could very well be that the PS5s I/O system is inferior to the Xbox VA due to how the VA works compared to what Sony has.

Essentially what matters are the current results but it is true that they can change with time.

Am I the only one sick of hearing this? It's a nice punchline but literally no one here is only comparing teraflops. No one.

Can we get the mods to ban this phrase please? It's so disingenuous.

I'm only half way joking but it's super annoying.

I mean teraflops were a huge part of the discussion ever since GitHub happened. Not to mention it was a big part of the marketing. I think it's fine to question it when the results are not what people are expecting.

But I agree that it's already been repeated so many times and I'm pretty sure everyone knows about it by now. I'll try not to mention them in the future because I know it bothers many people here.

I'll just focus on the comparisons and leave the teraflops out of the discussions.
 
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Papacheeks

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We believe in generations. Hides cross generation games until pre orders start. I say that is the biggest broken promise this generation.

If you actually played Demon souls which is not coming to PS4, and played Miles morales, you would see and feel the difference for next gen. PS4 version of miles, literally has loading for missions, limited to 30fps with no 60fps option. Miles morales for PS5 though it is a cross generational game, PS5 version feels next gen.

It's just one of a couple titles that they are ok making huge sacrifices on for people who want to play it. Every game Sony put out for launch in some way or another shows off the hardware. What does MS have to show off their 12tf of ray tracing? Gears 5?

So far even on third party titles they can't even have better image quality and performance.

So one platform did keep their promise of next gen. The other sold you a powerful box that has nothing special to play on to show off all that power.
 

DarkMage619

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Oh, yes, MS did indicated, but not directly. Greenberg's is just a prove of that. Greenberg isn't some random.
Btw. You remember Phil Spencer's words?

Xbox Boss Phil Spencer 'Felt Good' After Seeing PS5 Reveal

Blaming PS community because MS fucked up some things is a pathetic move. For all FUD crap about PS5 spreaded by Xbox community in last 10 months, especially Discord members, what is happening now for XSX is well deserved
MS indicated but indirectly? Sounds like projection to me. I hope you weren't expecting Phil to come out and say he had no confidence in the product he wants to sell. Greensburg too has a job to promote his companies' products. That is not an attack on your preferred game box. It is always funny hearing the conspiracy theories about secret Xbox discord servers like there is some vast effort to hurt the Playstation. Of course it's all one sided too with the everyone picking on poor Sony. There was plenty of FUD on all sides and with Sony fans being larger in number their FUD tends to win the day.
 
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INCUBASE

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Jan 8, 2018
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Not gonna lie, don't look good regardless

Most powerful console, no exclusives worth playing for a while , and the 3rd party games run equal or worse tan the other platofrm. Seris S is well.........a switch competitor.....? I have no idea, coz it seems a previous xbox or pspro would be better

Game pass is OK tho.

Yeh its a poor start, saying its gonna be fixed in patch and mature tools, isnt really an excuse
 
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mejin

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We believe in generations. Hides cross generation games until pre orders start. I say that is the biggest broken promise this generation.

PS5 is the concrete evidence they do believe in generations. There is no PS5 "S" to fuck everything, there is a new controller for new experiences and there are games that show the hardware and controllers capabilities.
 

nosseman

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Mar 16, 2020
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Yes, it depends on that. A 500 hosepower engine attach to a crappy CVT automatic won't be faster than a 400 horsepower engine attached to a dual clutch auto. You get the idea.

Its more like a fine tuned race car with 500 hp vs a "normal" car with 400 hp with ABS, Anti spin and so on.

An average driver will probably drive faster around the track with the normal car but in the hands of a race car driver that can use all the power the race car will be faster.

In your case even a racecar-driver will probably be faster with the 400 horsepower engine attached to a dual clutch auto.

PS5 seems to handle cross-gen games better with few optimizations - probably because of the higher clock speed but I am sure that when developers find all the power in the new hardware and use the whole widht of the GPU the Xbox Series X will pull ahead.

Kind of like how PS5 SSD that is supposed to be twice as fast as the one on Xbox Series X but load times are far from twice as fast - sometimes even slower than XSX.
 
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Heisenberg007

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but are the specs a lie? its like sony pushing the SSD to be so much faster when the reality so far is a few seconds here and there. Sony fans will tell you that the games aint fully optimised for full use of the SSD yet and I would agree but the same can be said of games not being fully optimised for both consoles specs

Sony has clearly demonstrated the power of their SSD multiple times: Demon's Souls, Spider-Man, Ratchet & Clank, UE5 demo. If it can achieve that 2-second-for-filling-the-RAM target in 4 games, it can hit it in other games as well.

Microsoft, on the other hand, hasn't yet demonstrated what the 12 TFlop GPU can do that the PS5 can't. They don't have an exclusive launch title, Halo Infinite looks like a PS3/360 generation game, and they didn't even create a graphical demo just to showcase what unique things it can do.
 

YeulEmeralda

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I mean, let’s be honest here, however deep down it may be buried for some of you, everyone actually realises the Series X is the more powerful console, right?

The fact that Ubisoft (or Microsoft for that matter lol) haven’t managed to take advantage of it yet doesn’t make it any less true... Unless you ‘believe in generations’ that only last three weeks that is.

The US has the biggest army in the world and it got humiliated by a bunch of sand people in Iraq.
Specs on paper are meaningless.
 

quest

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PS5 is the concrete evidence they do believe in generations. There is no PS5 "S" to fuck everything, there is a new controller for new experiences and there are games that show the hardware and controllers capabilities.
What new experiences a 13 year old remaster and dlc of a ps4 game is not new experiences. Or a second horizon game or 6th I think god of war game or 7th gran turismo game. It is a more powerful ps4 with better QOL improvements like loading times fasterUai. Nothing wrong with I think its great that but the overselling of the PS5 funny. I swear halo, mario 64 and super Mario world level games launched on it.
 
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assurdum

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It should be pointed out that the Xbox Series X had superior performance at the 4K Ultra HD resolution, while Digital Foundry also observed better ray tracing performance on Microsoft’s flagship new console. The site also pointed out the results are very preliminary.
Ok the hell they are talking about there. All the excuse in the OP was tolerable until that final bullshit.
It seems they can't avoid to spread FUD to their userbase, it's just too much radicate in their DNA. They totally deserve all the shitstorm and even more if they can't avoid to be so dishonest intellectually with their fanbase
 
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jimbojim

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A next gen game that is also on PS3.

Ratchet hasn't been released yet.

Game is totally revamped. So, yes, it's a next-game game. Ratchet is a launch window game too. Early 2021

MS indicated but indirectly? Sounds like projection to me. I hope you weren't expecting Phil to come out and say he had no confidence in the product he wants to sell. Greensburg too has a job to promote his companies' products. That is not an attack on your preferred game box. It is always funny hearing the conspiracy theories about secret Xbox discord servers like there is some vast effort to hurt the Playstation. Of course it's all one sided too with the everyone picking on poor Sony. There was plenty of FUD on all sides and with Sony fans being larger in number their FUD tends to win the day.

It's not a projection. Like i've said few posts ago :

Of course they won't mentioned it directly, but nevertheless.

Of course they won't said it directly. Despite Greenbergs job is marketing, does he has a rights do fuel console war? His tweet is juts a prove of that. You can promote companies product in a different way surely, not to fuel console war. There is noa conspiracy theorry about Xbox Discord group. There are bunch of screenshots. It's not even a remotely true that there is more FUD about XSX than PS5 despite PS community is larger. Xbox fans are providing FUD about PS5 since XSX reveal. You want some stuff from misterxmedia, bluenugroho, dealergaming, colteastwood, Gavin Stevens....?

sircaw sircaw show him the list.
 
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Bitmap Frogs

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Its more like a fine tuned race car with 500 hp vs a "normal" car with 400 hp with ABS, Anti spin and so on.

An average driver will probably drive faster around the track with the normal car but in the hands of a race car driver that can use all the power the race car will be faster.

In your case even a racecar-driver will probably be faster with the 400 horsepower engine attached to a dual clutch auto.

PS5 seems to handle cross-gen games better with few optimizations - probably because of the higher clock speed but I am sure that when developers find all the power in the new hardware and use the whole widht of the GPU the Xbox Series X will pull ahead.

Kind of like how PS5 SSD that is supposed to be twice as fast as the one on Xbox Series X but load times are far from twice as fast - sometimes even slower than XSX.

Dude, they wrecked amd gpu design throwing extra cus that can’t be properly serviced. They knew it wouldn’t perform and they lied to you.

The sooner you accept this and move on the sooner you’ll be happy.
 

Sejanus

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Dude, they wrecked amd gpu design throwing extra cus that can’t be properly serviced. They knew it wouldn’t perform and they lied to you.

The sooner you accept this and move on the sooner you’ll be happy.
Yes sure they pay 50mm (apu die) more of a very expensive node for nothing.
 
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kuncol02

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What new experiences a 13 year old remaster and dlc of a ps4 game is not new experiences. Or a second horizon game or 6th I think god of war game or 7th gran turismo game. It is a more powerful ps4 with better QOL improvements like loading times fasterUai. Nothing with I think its great that but the overselling of the PS5 funny. I swear halo, mario 64 and super Mario world level games launched on it.
Or 14th Ratchet game with mechanic copied from game from 2006. And to add to that. Working portals were shown first time in demo of Prey in 1997. Actually it's even worse. You could see through portals in Prey.
 
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quest

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Sony has clearly demonstrated the power of their SSD multiple times: Demon's Souls, Spider-Man, Ratchet & Clank, UE5 demo. If it can achieve that 2-second-for-filling-the-RAM target in 4 games, it can hit it in other games as well.

Microsoft, on the other hand, hasn't yet demonstrated what the 12 TFlop GPU can do that the PS5 can't. They don't have an exclusive launch title, Halo Infinite looks like a PS3/360 generation game, and they didn't even create a graphical demo just to showcase what unique things it can do.
I was told during the previews of the series x how shitty and embarrassing its loading times were. No backing down from that Sony gave the impression of no more loading screens their fans ate it up. See 2 can play at this game. I was told because of the spiderman demo all BC games would be around 2 seconds loading time lol. If developers can improve PS5 loading times they can improve series x optimization by actually spending time doing them. They spent the better part of the last 12-18 months optimizing the playstation 5 version of games because of Sony winning the sales war so badly and getting mature kits out there sooner. The series x was the afterthought quicky ports if it ran fuck it ship it no matter how bad it performed.

Yes sure they pay 50mm (apu die) more of a very expensive node for nothing.

Welcome to neogaf where the guys who designed the series x are bafoons. Where the management suits are doing the designing of the SOC. Microsoft is the first company to bring out a console not using any engineers the suits designed it. Where Microsoft spends 100s of millions or even billions of dollars on items that tank performance of thier 499.99 machine.
 

INCUBASE

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You do have no idea. How's that Ray Tracing and Locked 30fps on Watch Dogs Legion on PS4 Pro? How's that 60fps in Valhalla on PS4 Pro? How's the 120fps in Dirt 5 on PS4 Pro?

I could go on but there is no need.

Very true

Thanks x
 

Riky

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Game is totally revamped. So, yes, it's a next-game game. Ratchet is a launch window game too. Early 2021

Totally revamped? It uses the original codebase. Is the AI totally revamped? Is the structure of the game and amount of enemies totally revamped?

No just the looks, it's a prettier version of an over decade old game. Hardly next gen.
 

mejin

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What new experiences a 13 year old remaster and dlc of a ps4 game is not new experiences. Or a second horizon game or 6th I think god of war game or 7th gran turismo game. It is a more powerful ps4 with better QOL improvements like loading times fasterUai. Nothing wrong with I think its great that but the overselling of the PS5 funny. I swear halo, mario 64 and super Mario world level games launched on it.

You don't need to accept, just to understand the situation as it is being presented. That are several reasons why PS5 is doing way better than previous playstations and one of the best of them is overdelivering. Once again you can put your personal opinion as a fact, you are free to do it, but look at the thread title...
 

Papacheeks

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A next gen game that is also on PS3.

Ratchet hasn't been released yet.

Dude demon souls was re-created from the ground up. They even took some liberties on re-designing some of the characters and bosses. You also are able to play the game at 60fps. Something original and blood borne could not attest to.

The goal post and defecting is fucking hilarious.
 

kuncol02

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Welcome to neogaf where the guys who designed the series x are bafoons. Where the management suits are doing the designing of the SOC. Microsoft is the first company to bring out a console not using any engineers the suits designed it.
Last time engineers were allowed to do whatever they wanted we got PS3, so console designed by suits is probably not worst idea ever.