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[Deto]

Microsoft has been pretty confident with Series X, it was the reverse in 2013 when Sony for the first time ever in consoles went in honest and laying out the exact numbers of the PS4 and how they got those numbers (with PS3 they said it was a 2TF machine out of their ass lol). MS with Xbox One would only mention 8GB of ram, but wouldn't list the type and wanted to only talk about transistors because it's the only thing they had more of LMAO.

Now MS has a box that's superior in every way except the SSD, so they'll sing it off the rooftops while Sony will stay very quiet and focus on the SSD whenever possible, capitalizing on developers being super happy with the incredible boost in IOPS that SSD's bring, but the thing is, Xbox Series X is also benefiting from the exact things developers have been craving about for years, not needing to pad their games with redundant data to optimize loading when data sits on un-optimal areas of a spinning hdd, which can be tedious in of itself and needlessly increases the size of the game.

PS4 and X1 have 5400rpm HDD, when looking at the graph below comparing SSD to 10,000 and even 15,000 rpm HDDs, imagine the boost in IOPS when comparing to last gen.

he looks so confident in the SX that he says sales don't matter.

lol MS trusts the SX, which showed several gameplays on the console. /s
Sony doesn't trust the PS5 and that's why I announce a PS3 gameplay and several undated CGs. /s

You should be more concerned with the facts, games presented, than building a narrative of "feelings" that companies feel to delude themselves.

Xbox fans love these feelings narratives ... Along with "Sony desperate doing shit" while MS has the "masterplan"

 

[GreyHand23]

Microsoft has been pretty confident with Series X, it was the reverse in 2013 when Sony for the first time ever in consoles went in honest and laying out the exact numbers of the PS4 and how they got those numbers (with PS3 they said it was a 2TF machine out of their ass lol). MS with Xbox One would only mention 8GB of ram, but wouldn't list the type and wanted to only talk about transistors because it's the only thing they had more of LMAO.

Now MS has a box that's superior in every way except the SSD, so they'll sing it off the rooftops while Sony will stay very quiet and focus on the SSD whenever possible, capitalizing on developers being super happy with the incredible boost in IOPS that SSD's bring, but the thing is, Xbox Series X is also benefiting from the exact things developers have been craving about for years, not needing to pad their games with redundant data to optimize loading when data sits on un-optimal areas of a spinning hdd, which can be tedious in of itself and needlessly increases the size of the game.

PS4 and X1 have 5400rpm HDD, when looking at the graph below comparing SSD to 10,000 and even 15,000 rpm HDDs, imagine the boost in IOPS when comparing to last gen.

This is one way to look at it. The other is that Microsoft is talking about the box so much because they have no games to showcase the power of the box. Revealing as many details as possible is the only way to build hype when you have nothing else but game pass.

 

[VincentMatts]

This is one way to look at it. The other is that Microsoft is talking about the box so much because they have no games to showcase the power of the box. Revealing as many details as possible is the only way to build hype when you have nothing else but game pass.

And if they said nothing, people would be saying: what are they hiding?

You just cant win.

Theyre talking about it cause people are interested in knowing. These multi page threads are proof enough of that.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

It's interesting. Sony's 360 reality audio is primarily aimed at music and headphone use and I expect that there could be benefits for headphone users on consoles if they use a similar system. Dolby does pretty much the same thing though.

I'm still dubious about the ear pics, that sounds very much like a gimmick when you could just flip between the five settings and decide for yourself. In some demo setups they actually place microphones inside your ear to customise delivery of sound, this won't be anything like that so user experience will vary.

Unfortunately you won't get any real 'immersion' benefit through the typical TV speaker set-up or a stereo soundbar, and, let's be honest, the whole thing is really just Dolby Atmos under a different name. Luckily both consoles have similar audio processing power available to them, so there's some chance that this kind of stuff will be supported beyond a handful of titles.

Well, it's not the same. Dolby Atmos needs 3D audio simulation like 7.1 channel, while HRTF-based 3D audio fits with any stereo 2.0 channel. I bet they'll make it possible for people who have their own measurements, audiophiles, to enter their file/codes manually? I think it's more of an experimental thing from Sony then it might extend to their other branches like TV's and other audio-related products.

I would personally be happy with any preset that would give me like those clips on youtube. A more accurate one? Why not. It might sound like a gimmick now, until we experience it by ourselves. 3rd party devs who won't take advantage of it could as well use the tempest in other calculations in the games, as stated by Mark Cerny. Actually, taking full advantage of up to 20GB/s bandwidth might still have something left for game optimization that's most likely to be 1st party playground until more 3rd party devs get used to it, just like the Geometry Engines.

Anyway, that will push the gaming industry into more immersion, which is always a plus. Might see sound cards become famous again on PC's.

 

[Kerlurk]

Gaming Discussion

Video game news, industry analysis, sales figures, deals, impressions, reviews, and discussions of everything in the medium, covering all platforms, genres, and territories.

www.neogaf.com

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

The mental gymnastics are impressive. You don't understand this information, much less are capable of making any comparisons. Since when is audio equipment measured in teraflops?

Stop trying to hype yourself up and others over something you don't understand.

Okay smartiepants, you clearly didn't read my following posts on it and my corrections. I was corrected on Tempest Engine's relative performance because I thought Cerny had compared its performance to a CU core but it turns out he only said it is a modified CU core and the performance was compared to the PS4's CPU cluster. Which is measured if GFLOPs, not TFLOPs. The comparisons are relative and if you knew anything about DSPs as one example, many manufacturers (Texas Instruments for example) rate their audio/sound DSPs in terms of number of FLOPs and GFLOPs they perform, FLOPs aren't used for only GPUs!

I also did a bit of wonky math on the Series X's audio setup because I was trying to convert its relative stated performance (more than One X's CPU) from Jaguar to Zen 2, when that isn't necessary even though it could potentially be done if taking the relative IPC gains from GCN to RDNA1 and applying that to Jaguar > Zen 2 (as a modest example). So we can look at Sony and MS's stated claims for their audio performance as follows:

Sony: "raw" ~||= 102.4 GFLOPs, "relative" 153.6 GFLOPs of Jaguar (assuming architectural gains)

MS: "raw" > 147.2 GFLOPs, "relative" 220.8 GFLOPs of Jaguar (assuming architectural gains; trickier in this example since they aren't repurposing a CU unit like Sony is).

...I was also reminded that Sony also has a more generic audio DSP alongside Tempest but we have no info on that at all, so I can't factor it into the equation. However it's possible said audio DSP + Tempest combined would give relative "raw" performance of MS's audio if not moreso, the expectation that Sony's other DSP would be at most just half of Tempest's raw performance (in actuality it's likely quite less than that).

There's no "mental gymnastics" here; I just took Sony and MS's own relative performance claims of their audio solutions and referenced the GFLOPs of the processors they referred to, because you don't seem to understand that specifying FLOPs isn't exclusive to GPUs. Never has been and never will be. I reiterated multiple times I was only speaking of "raw" performance of the audio solutions and in that sense using FLOPs as a comparison point makes pretty sound sense considering both of them compared theirs to the CPUs of their previous systems. None of this takes into account various customizations of the audio solutions or certain specific things one might be better at than the other (like Sony's having more sound sources for example).

It's not my fault you couldn't keep up

You dont measure Audio if flops, these simple comparisons are for given for talks.

Audio uses frequency domain and FFT and is better suited to specialisised logic which is much more efficient than any CPU or GPU, so all the comparisons to CPUs are just for marketing and dont apply.

I assume both have cell like SPUs which each FFT for breakfast, but the Flops numbers are just silly.

You could have 10 x more flops and a dedicacted FFT type SPU would walk it easily.

I know I know, was just going with what Sony and MS themselves compared their audio solutions to. The reason they compared them to their previous system CPUs (PS4 for Sony, One X for MS) was to give a basic point of "raw" power comparison in their audio solutions to the equivalent amount of CPU power you'd need to do them if just wanting the CPU to do all of the audio work.

FWIW I do know of several audio DSP companies (Cirrus, Texas Instrument etc.) who do specify GFLOP performance of their chips in their documentation and oft-times on the product pages of their website directly. So maybe they do that for marketing purposes too, but it is something a lot of these companies seem to do :/

 

[geordiemp]

Okay smartiepants, you clearly didn't read my following posts on it and my corrections. I was corrected on Tempest Engine's relative performance because I thought Cerny had compared its performance to a CU core but it turns out he only said it is a modified CU core and the performance was compared to the PS4's CPU cluster. Which is measured if GFLOPs, not TFLOPs. The comparisons are relative and if you knew anything about DSPs as one example, many manufacturers (Texas Instruments for example) rate their audio/sound DSPs in terms of number of FLOPs and GFLOPs they perform, FLOPs aren't used for only GPUs!

I also did a bit of wonky math on the Series X's audio setup because I was trying to convert its relative stated performance (more than One X's CPU) from Jaguar to Zen 2, when that isn't necessary even though it could potentially be done if taking the relative IPC gains from GCN to RDNA1 and applying that to Jaguar > Zen 2 (as a modest example). So we can look at Sony and MS's stated claims for their audio performance as follows:

Sony: "raw" ~||= 102.4 GFLOPs, "relative" 153.6 GFLOPs of Jaguar (assuming architectural gains)

MS: "raw" > 147.2 GFLOPs, "relative" 220.8 GFLOPs of Jaguar (assuming architectural gains; trickier in this example since they aren't repurposing a CU unit like Sony is).

...I was also reminded that Sony also has a more generic audio DSP alongside Tempest but we have no info on that at all, so I can't factor it into the equation. However it's possible said audio DSP + Tempest combined would give relative "raw" performance of MS's audio if not moreso, the expectation that Sony's other DSP would be at most just half of Tempest's raw performance (in actuality it's likely quite less than that).

There's no "mental gymnastics" here; I just took Sony and MS's own relative performance claims of their audio solutions and referenced the GFLOPs of the processors they referred to, because you don't seem to understand that specifying FLOPs isn't exclusive to GPUs. Never has been and never will be. I reiterated multiple times I was only speaking of "raw" performance of the audio solutions and in that sense using FLOPs as a comparison point makes pretty sound sense considering both of them compared theirs to the CPUs of their previous systems. None of this takes into account various customizations of the audio solutions or certain specific things one might be better at than the other (like Sony's having more sound sources for example).

It's not my fault you couldn't keep up

LOL they used CPU cores etc as an example of what it might need as a simple visualisation but 8 cores CPU is vastly better at CPU stuff, a cell SPUs blow a CPU out of the water at FFT workloads. You cant compare really it was just a visualisation.

I think you got it

 

[IntentionalPun]

"Furthermore If we go down the rabbit hole of CU vs MHZ, recall that increasing the CU count to increase TFLOP is not a linear increase either. Compare the 2080 vs the 2080ti, 50% more CUs for 17% extra performance. For AMD, just compare the R9 390X vs the Fury X, 41% increased CU count for 23% increased performance. This is partially related to a concept in computing called Amdahl's law. You can read more about it here. Basically the higher the parallelization of a workload (such as thousands of GPU CUs) the harder it is to extract perfect performance from it.

The 18% number that is being thrown around for the difference in performance in the XSX and PS5 is purely theoretical and is based on the raw TFLOP numbers. In reality, the difference might even be smaller then that. The PS5 GPU does have advantages in Pixel fill rate and triangle culling as well."

T H I S

That's all also partially related to the fact PC games are not optimized for a given GPU layout.

You can't just throw a % at XSX vs PS5 really in general should be the point.

But I don't see anyone but the most deranged Xbox fanboys equating CU count to an increase in performance lol

 

[M1chl]

Sony: "raw" ~||= 102.4 GFLOPs, "relative" 153.6 GFLOPs of Jaguar (assuming architectural gains)

MS: "raw" > 147.2 GFLOPs, "relative" 220.8 GFLOPs of Jaguar (assuming architectural gains; trickier in this example since they aren't repurposing a CU unit like Sony is).

OT, but those CPUs were sure "something"... Ryzen 2 3600x is 1,209.6 GFLOPS and with IPC advantage over Jaguar obviously.

 

[Entroyp]

Sony is repurposing a CU for audio? I don’t think that’s how Tempest is set up.....

 

[CrashNBurn_281]

Well at least on the audio we know PS5's Tempest Engine is a reworked CU

 

[geordiemp]

Sony is repurposing a CU for audio? I don’t think that’s how Tempest is set up.....

I think its just a simplistic explanation - think of it as a audio CU.....but it wont be for sure -it will be CELL SPU like FFT dedicated logic for audio and to think of it as the SIZE of a CU was my interpretation.

 

[Entroyp]

I think its just a simplistic explanation - think of it as a audio CU.....but it wont be for sure -it will be CELL SPU like FFT dedicated logic for audio and to think of it as the SIZE of a CU was my interpretation.

I meant in a way that Tempest is taking away a CU from the GPU. From what I understand it’s a separate unit?

 

[geordiemp]

I meant in a way that Tempest is taking away a CU from the GPU. From what I understand it’s a separate unit?

Yes it will be part of the die but a different design. Did cerny not mention SPUs and Cell in Tempest talk ? The CU reference was a die size imagery thing IMO

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

Sony is repurposing a CU for audio? I don’t think that’s how Tempest is set up.....

That's what Cerny said they are doing for PS4. Taking a CU, altering it to act more like a SPU, etc. It was mentioned in the Road to PS5 presentation.

LOL they used CPU cores etc as an example of what it might need as a simple visualisation but 8 cores CPU is vastly better at CPU stuff, a cell SPUs blow a CPU out of the water at FFT workloads. You cant compare really it was just a visualisation.

I think you got it

Yeah I don't want people to think I'm doing those calculations to explicitly state the audio solutions are literally like CPUs repurposed for audio or anything like that. It was just a very basic interpretation of their performance capabilities using FLOPs as a metric to convey that, since both MS and Sony compared their audio performance to previous-gen CPUs.

Cell SPU being better than Jaguar at FFT (and really at a lot of things; just shows how mediocre the Jaguars were last gen out of the gate) is one of the reasons Sony has modified Tempest to behave more like a SPU in the first place.

OT, but those CPUs were sure "something"... Ryzen 2 3600x is 1,209.6 GFLOPS and with IPC advantage over Jaguar obviously.

Yeah the Jaguars were old soggy ass even at release. Most bottlenecks with the current-gen systems can be attributed to the CPUs, that won't be an issue this upcoming generation thankfully.

Ryzen 2 3600x is really that capable? That isn't an APU by chance, is it? If it is that would probably also be accounting for the integrated GPU. It'd be kind of crazy if that's sans integrated GPU though, it would dwarf the supposed claims of PS5 and Series X CPU performance going by this graph (which may or may not be 100% accurate, tbf).

 

[JLMC469]

More interesting that MS did not imagine a PS5 only digital to compete with the SS.

MS, like its fanboys, also believed in the Github "PS5 8TF" for 400USD, just like all the idiot that underestimates Sony thought.

MS's dream would be:

SX: 600USD, 12TF, 50% more power than the PS5 and 50% more expensive
SS: 200USD, 4TF, 50% less power, 50% less cost than PS5.

Little did MS know, which underestimates Sony like its fanboys, that Sony was pushing the GPU to 2.23GHz and would launch a digital-only console.

PS5 10TF: 500USD
PS5 FROM: 400USD.

just destroyed the price of the xbox, no longer scale the price with increased power.

PS5 DE: more than 2x the power, 2x the price
PS5: 20% less power, 33% less price.

It turns out that Sony is not an idiot, contrary to what the idiotic xbox fanboys think they were burping "MS master plan, Sony underestimated Sony" just like the idiots in Windows Central who for free took a Halo Infinite vs Horizon Forbidden West in the ass .

I think it’s past your bedtime.

 

[M1chl]

That's what Cerny said they are doing for PS4. Taking a CU, altering it to act more like a SPU, etc. It was mentioned in the Road to PS5 presentation.



Yeah I don't want people to think I'm doing those calculations to explicitly state the audio solutions are literally like CPUs repurposed for audio or anything like that. It was just a very basic interpretation of their performance capabilities using FLOPs as a metric to convey that, since both MS and Sony compared their audio performance to previous-gen CPUs.

Cell SPU being better than Jaguar at FFT (and really at a lot of things; just shows how mediocre the Jaguars were last gen out of the gate) is one of the reasons Sony has modified Tempest to behave more like a SPU in the first place.



Yeah the Jaguars were old soggy ass even at release. Most bottlenecks with the current-gen systems can be attributed to the CPUs, that won't be an issue this upcoming generation thankfully.

Ryzen 2 3600x is really that capable? That isn't an APU by chance, is it? If it is that would probably also be accounting for the integrated GPU. It'd be kind of crazy if that's sans integrated GPU though, it would dwarf the supposed claims of PS5 and Series X CPU performance going by this graph (which may or may not be 100% accurate, tbf).

3600x is not APU, that's why I choose it, however is just 6-core CPU.

 

[Entroyp]

Yes it will be part of the die but a different design. Did cerny not mention SPUs and Cell in Tempest talk ? The CU reference was a die size imagery thing IMO

I’ve watched the Cerny presentation multiple times, but I saw someone here saying it’s a repurposed CU, meaning taking it away from the GPU, so that didn’t look right to me.

Maybe I understood wrong.

 

[Kerlurk]

Gaming Discussion

Video game news, industry analysis, sales figures, deals, impressions, reviews, and discussions of everything in the medium, covering all platforms, genres, and territories.

www.neogaf.com

 

[geordiemp]

I’ve watched the Cerny presentation multiple times, but I saw someone here saying it’s a repurposed CU, meaning taking it away from the GPU, so that didn’t look right to me.

Maybe I understood wrong.

Cerny

So it's been tough going making forward progress on audio with Playstation 4 particularly when PlayStation 3 was such a beast when it came to audio. The SPU's and Cell were almost a perfect device for audio rendering.

Simple pipeline algorithms could really take advantage of asynchronous DMA and frequently reached a hundred percent utilization of the floating-point unit. There's unfortunately nothing comparable on PlayStation 4.

Unfortunately the processing has to be done in frequency domain rather than time domain so there's multiple fast Fourier transforms needed for every sound source for every audio tech.

It's based on AMD's GPU technology we modified a compute unit in such a way as to make it very close to the SPU is in PlayStation 3.

So they took a CU and modified it to be SPU cell, Cell was a beast at audio and ps3 was better than ps4 at audio processing.

 

[splattered]

Whoa nuh uh... the tempest engine is a reworked CU? So that means their 36CU drops to 35CU?

Hit in graphical performance incoming?

Like i said yesterday, i think Sony over invested in their audio solution.. if it really does take performance away from the graphical capabilities even a little bit i'd say they shit the bed and made a terrible choice.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

I’ve watched the Cerny presentation multiple times, but I saw someone here saying it’s a repurposed CU, meaning taking it away from the GPU, so that didn’t look right to me.

Maybe I understood wrong.

It has nothing to do with the main GPU, yet it runs in parallel with the main GPU in terms of speed (2.23GHz). It's a separate compute unit, stripped from the caches (which could cause unnecessary latency), and acts like an SPU.

The big news here is Sony’s new approach to audio. For PS5, the brand is heavily relying on its “Tempest” 3D audio technology to really set the console apart. Tempest sets out to offer a much deeper sense of immersion through audio. Interestingly, the Tempest Engine, is a modified compute unit based on AMD’s GPU technology, which closely resembles the SPU (Synergistic Processing Unit) used in the PS3.

PlayStation 5 Specs Revealed: 10 TFLOPS GPU, Custom 3D Audio, SSD and More

www.gtplanet.net

.

As mentioned by Cerny, PS3 was extremely superior to PS4 when it comes to sound/audio. We might as well see it used as an alternative to CELL for PS3 BC, but that needs further confirmation.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Whoa nuh uh... the tempest engine is a reworked CU? So that means their 36CU drops to 35CU?

Hit in graphical performance incoming?

Like i said yesterday, i think Sony over invested in their audio solution.. if it really does take performance away from the graphical capabilities even a little bit i'd say they shit the bed and made a terrible choice.

It's more of added CU, which in total could make it 38-40CU's, but it's not meant to do graphics, so that's not how it should be looked at.

 

[splattered]

It's more of added CU, which in total could make it 38-40CU's, but it's not meant to do graphics, so that's not how it should be looked at.

Cerny said it's a 36CU system... all assuming it was a 40CU with 4 disabled which seems to be per the usual on consoles? So you're saying it's a 40CU with only 3CU disabled because one of them is a dedicated audio CU?

I dunno, doesn't sound right...

 

[Entroyp]

It has nothing to do with the main GPU, yet it runs in parallel with the main GPU in terms of speed (2.23GHz). It's a seperate compute unit, stripped from the caches (which could cause unnecessary latency), and acts like an SPU.

The big news here is Sony’s new approach to audio. For PS5, the brand is heavily relying on its “Tempest” 3D audio technology to really set the console apart. Tempest sets out to offer a much deeper sense of immersion through audio. Interestingly, the Tempest Engine, is a modified compute unit based on AMD’s GPU technology, which closely resembles the SPU (Synergistic Processing Unit) used in the PS3.

PlayStation 5 Specs Revealed: 10 TFLOPS GPU, Custom 3D Audio, SSD and More

www.gtplanet.net

.

As mentioned by Cerny, PS3 was extremely superior to PS4 when it comes to sound/audio. We might as well see it used as an alternative to CELL for PS3 BC, but that need further confirmation.

That’s exactly what I understood from the presentation.

I think I misread someone here stating that it took away a CU from the GPU, hence the confusion.

Sounded like FUD to me, You know how people are lately. But false alarm.

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

I really dont understand this level of insecurity. I added like a million qualifiers and you still managed to get upset. And it's not like the thread became about RDNA 1 after my post like you suggested. A couple of people replied to disagree with me, and that was the end of that. Yet you made it seem like all xbox fans are bringing this up when it was a Sony fan who made that post.

And if you had bothered to read that post till the end, you wouldve seen that despite all the generous concessions and assumptions, you still dont get to the 100% gap in performance suggested by Dusk Golem. So if anything, that post with all that math, refutes those rumors, but i guess reading comprehension isnt your strongest suit.

I think you would be better off directing your outrage at people like that Toms Hardware author who literally just said that the PS5 is not full RDNA 2 based on "feelings". We wouldnt be discussing this stuff if it wasnt for people in the industry bringing this shit up all the time.

Dude. For all your capacity to write posts that are way too long, you fail to understand that an architecture like RDNA2 is not a monolithic entity that exists in a all or nothing state. From qualified sources, PS5 is using a customised RDNA2 GPU which means it's getting the benefits of the optimisations in the core GPU functionality but they've decided to omit, change, customise certain specific features for various reasons like funneling devs through specific paths, saving on silicon die area and so on.

People fearmongering about a 100% delta and similar fantasies have an agenda like the demodded reset screecher. Which makes me question what's the motivation of people like you and other posters that keep posting FUD posing as speculation "imagine if the ps5 had the same performance as lockhart" "Imagine if the ps5 was half as performing as the XBX" and so on, and most of those are based on the false rumor that the GPU on the PS5 is not RDNA2.

The 9 teraflop meme is banned because it's untrue and results in crappy threads and cheap troll bait. I don't see why the new wave of FUD "imagine if the ps5 is 6 teraflops lul" shouldn't be treated the same.

 

[Allandor]

Cerny said it's a 36CU system... all assuming it was a 40CU with 4 disabled which seems to be per the usual on consoles? So you're saying it's a 40CU with only 3CU disabled because one of them is a dedicated audio CU?

I dunno, doesn't sound right...

that would also imply, that they just disabled the cache inside the CU, because like cerny said it is cu like without cache.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Cerny said it's a 36CU system... all assuming it was a 40CU with 4 disabled which seems to be per the usual on consoles? So you're saying it's a 40CU with only 3CU disabled because one of them is a dedicated audio CU?

I dunno, doesn't sound right...

It is a 36CU system, the tempest is a separate chip (within the APU?) but has nothing to do with the GPU. It's a modified compute unit meant to act like an SPU.

Cerny also focused on the PS5’s audio capabilities. Sony built a custom hardware unit for 3D audio that it calls Tempest 3D AudioTech. This was partly because of the company’s specific goals with audio, which precluded the use of existing object-based audio solutions such as Dolby Atmos. (Cerny also noted that Sony wanted the PS5’s 3D audio to be available to all users, not just those with headphones or sound systems with support for a licensed standard such as Dolby Atmos.)

PlayStation 5 hardware specifications revealed

Sony finally drops some key PS5 details

www.polygon.com

 

[Bo_Hazem]

That’s exactly what I understood from the presentation.

I think I misread someone here stating that it took away a CU from the GPU, hence the confusion.

Sounded like FUD to me, You know how people are lately. But false alarm.

Well, they took a CU, but not from the GPU.

The Tempest Engine is effectively the hardware chip inside the PS5 which makes all of this fancy 3D audio technology possible. As explained by Digital Foundry, the "Tempest Engine is effectively a re-engineered AMD GPU compute unit, stripped of its caches and relying solely on DMA transfers".

PS5 3D Audio: What Is PlayStation 5's Tempest Engine?

How PlayStation 5's 3D audio tech will improve games

www.pushsquare.com

.

 

[thicc_girls_are_teh_best]

Yes I think Cerny has just rounded 142 gflops to around ~100 gflops. Which is a correct hundreds rounding actually.

I don't know...if that were the case I think his wording relating to audio performance for Tempest relative to PS4 CPU would've been more specific would it not? We know the PS4's CPU is around 102.4 GFLOPs of performance; the Pro's is a bit more than that (about slight north of 137 GFLOPs IIRC) but why not just make the comparison to the Pro's CPU in that case?

Also while Tempest is definitely a modified CU it wasn't stated if it's operating at the same clock as the GPU in PS5, as I assume it's not actually physically a part of the GPU and may not need that high of a clock to function the way they intend it to. At least, by default. Cerny slipping in mention some devs can maybe find a task or two aside from audio to put Tempest on if needed could probably hint at adjustable clock settings, but I don't think that's realistically possible. You can't just manually adjust clock settings on a device component once it's already been initialized for use and is in active use to my knowledge. On PC at least that's something you can only do in BIOS/UEFI and it'd require a reboot of the system anyway.

I know consoles are different in that they give lower-level access but being able to manually adjust clock settings for a silicon component of the hardware while in use just screams system instability to me.

3600x is not APU, that's why I choose it, however is just 6-core CPU.

Interesting. Well either that chart I've been referencing assumed wrongly on CPU performance for next-gen systems, or MS and Sony've cut out a lot of stuff (aside from cutting down the L3$, which is understandable for consoles and IIRC current-gen systems don't even have an L3$ at all).

 

[Entroyp]

Well, they took a CU, but not from the GPU.

The Tempest Engine is effectively the hardware chip inside the PS5 which makes all of this fancy 3D audio technology possible. As explained by Digital Foundry, the "Tempest Engine is effectively a re-engineered AMD GPU compute unit, stripped of its caches and relying solely on DMA transfers".

PS5 3D Audio: What Is PlayStation 5's Tempest Engine?

How PlayStation 5's 3D audio tech will improve games

www.pushsquare.com

.

Yup, an AMD CU had a baby with a CELL SPU. Sounds amazing.

 

[SlimySnake]

People fearmongering about a 100% delta and similar fantasies have an agenda like the demodded reset screecher. Which makes me question what's the motivation of people like you and other posters that keep posting FUD posing as speculation "imagine if the ps5 had the same performance as lockhart" "Imagine if the ps5 was half as performing as the XBX" and so on, and most of those are based on the false rumor that the GPU on the PS5 is not RDNA2.

It would do you well to take a step back and see how ridiculous this paragraph reads. Fearmongering, questioning motivations of people on a video game forum, dreaming up agendas. This is not healthy.

This is a video game forum. People are allowed to discuss and speculate. if we didnt, we wouldnt have a speculation thread still going months after the specs were officially revealed. If there was nothing to speculate, you wouldn't be in this thread because this thread with new information on the xsx hardware wouldnt need to exist.

Let it go. Not everyone has an agenda. I find it hilarious that I get accused of having an agenda despite spending the last 7 years on this board shitting on Phil Spencer, Microsoft, the xbox one and lockhart. if you cant let it go, reply to my post and poke holes in my logic like the guys who replied to me did. Dont go crying to mommy to try and get people banned for actually putting an effort into their post and then chastise them for it.

 

[Bitmap Frogs]

This is not healthy.

You're essentially reposting and amplifying the RDNA 1 meme.

That's so healthy.

 

[Kagey K]

More interesting that MS did not imagine a PS5 only digital to compete with the SS.

MS, like its fanboys, also believed in the Github "PS5 8TF" for 400USD, just like all the idiot that underestimates Sony thought.

MS's dream would be:

SX: 600USD, 12TF, 50% more power than the PS5 and 50% more expensive
SS: 200USD, 4TF, 50% less power, 50% less cost than PS5.

Little did MS know, which underestimates Sony like its fanboys, that Sony was pushing the GPU to 2.23GHz and would launch a digital-only console.

PS5 10TF: 500USD
PS5 FROM: 400USD.

just destroyed the price of the xbox, no longer scale the price with increased power.

PS5 DE: more than 2x the power, 2x the price
PS5: 20% less power, 33% less price.

It turns out that Sony is not an idiot, contrary to what the idiotic xbox fanboys think they were burping "MS master plan, Sony underestimated Sony" just like the idiots in Windows Central who for free took a Halo Infinite vs Horizon Forbidden West in the ass .

Is this another chapter from the book Tales from my Ass?

 

[geordiemp]

It has nothing to do with the main GPU, yet it runs in parallel with the main GPU in terms of speed (2.23GHz). It's a seperate compute unit, stripped from the caches (which could cause unnecessary latency), and acts like an SPU.

The big news here is Sony’s new approach to audio. For PS5, the brand is heavily relying on its “Tempest” 3D audio technology to really set the console apart. Tempest sets out to offer a much deeper sense of immersion through audio. Interestingly, the Tempest Engine, is a modified compute unit based on AMD’s GPU technology, which closely resembles the SPU (Synergistic Processing Unit) used in the PS3.

PlayStation 5 Specs Revealed: 10 TFLOPS GPU, Custom 3D Audio, SSD and More

www.gtplanet.net

.

As mentioned by Cerny, PS3 was extremely superior to PS4 when it comes to sound/audio. We might as well see it used as an alternative to CELL for PS3 BC, but that need further confirmation.

Cerny said it is so, its a modified CU to include ps3 cell SPU technology/.

It's based on AMD's GPU technology we modified a compute unit in such a way as to make it very close to the SPU is in PlayStation 3.

 

[01011001]

XsX=most expensive nextgen console
XSS=weakest nextgen console.

See how stupid this argument is?

we don't know if the Series X will be the most expensive, but we know the Series S is the cheapest

 

[Die Namek Ability]

we don't know if the Series X will be the most expensive, but we know the Series S is the cheapest

Thats some sound logic...
"I will believe the rumors that suit my agenda"
Neither of your statements are facts.

 

[01011001]

Thats some sound logic...
"I will believe the rumors that suit my agenda"
Neither of your statements are facts.

what is wrong with your brain?

we know the Series X is the most powerful system and we know the Series S is the cheapest.

this means using these metrics is a save bet. meanwhile your counter example is simply not verifiable since we don't know if it is the most expensive

 

[JLMC469]

Series X and PS5: premium consoles (more powerful and expensive).
Series S: entry level. Targeted at casuals (less powerful and cheaper).

 

[Die Namek Ability]

what is wrong with your brain?

we know the Series X is the most powerful system and we know the Series S is the cheapest.

this means using these metrics is a save bet. meanwhile your counter example is simply not verifiable since we don't know if it is the most expensive

You dont know either of those things. Wth are you trying to pedal? You are choosing, based of rumors, what to believe, extrapolating that information with a tinted biased and passing it as fact. But theres something wrong with my brain? You must be clocked over 2.23ghz because your logic is fucked.

 

[01011001]

You dont know either of those things. Wth are you trying to pedal? You are choosing, based of rumors, what to believe, extrapolating that information with a tinted biased and passing it as fact. But theres something wrong with my brain? You must be clocked over 2.23ghz because your logic is fucked.

so your argument is that we don't know if the SX is the most powerful system and we don't know if the SS is the cheapest? are you serious?

 

[Die Namek Ability]

so your argument is that we don't know if the SX is the most powerful system and we don't know if the SS is the cheapest? are you serious?

Awesome we agree!!!! Finally got there, but that was my point initially....its a stupid argument

 

[geordiemp]

And layers are all composed by light I guess, you don't glue layers of silicon together...if my understanding is correct, so slavaged chip is same size as higher tier one, you don't cut finished, albeit badly produced one. That's why chiplets exists. Hope I am correct.

Not really, the light (UV or other wavelengths) is used to shine a pattern on a material covering teh wafer which can selectively remove it at next stage, so it leaves a pattern of protection on the surface so the next stage only adds that process in the uncovered areas.

EUV is much shorter wavelength and hence is more accurate and precise at nanometres, but the machines that do this cost more than god.

 

[M1chl]

Not really, the light (UV or other wavelengths) is used to shine a pattern on a material covering teh wafer which can selectively remove it at next stage, so it leaves a pattern of protection on the surface so the next stage only adds that process in the uncovered areas.

EUV is much shorter wavelength and hence is more accurate and precise at nanometres, but the machines that do this cost more than god.

Yes, but layers is all done with light, no? You don't take a layer of circutry and in the end you physically take it and stack them together to create X-layers of silicon, after it exist the machine, is already finished product, if I am not mistaken, because I am not sure how would you connect those layers with physically stacking.

I am not really that articulate and it was probably stupid premise for question from the get go. You set some depth into material, do the layer, then set another depth into material and do other layer and so on, right?

 

[01011001]

Awesome we agree!!!! Finally got there, but that was my point initially....its a stupid argument

BUT WE DO KNOW THESE THINGS! WE HAVE CONCRETE HARDWARE DETAILS OF THE SX AND PS5

and we also know that the SS has to be the cheapest system, otherwise it would be a pointless version

 

[Bo_Hazem]

EUV is much shorter wavelength and hence is more accurate and precise at nanometres, but the machines that do this cost more than god.

 

[Dodkrake]

Still the Tempest Engine CU discussion. Concern trolls come and go, get schooled, and then come back some time later

The tempest engine is not one of the 40CUs, it's a separate hardware unit BASED on a CU. A child can grasp this.

 

[geordiemp]

Yes, but layers is all done with light, no? You don't take a layer of circutry and in the end you physically take it and stack them together to create X-layers of silicon, after it exist the machine, is already finished product, if I am not mistaken, because I am not sure how would you connect those layers with physically stacking.

I am not really that articulate and it was probably stupid premise for question from the get go. You set some depth into material, do the layer, then set another depth into material and do other layer and so on, right?

The layers are built up by masking and LIGHT in different wavelengths hardening a mask layer in certain patern then adding to the layer in 3 basic ways

oxidation - gowth of oxide
CVD - deposition at low pressure of gas to a solid (precursor), stuff like SiO2, SiN, TEOS
Doping - Boron and phos implanters
Metals - again similar to CVD with metals
Exotic - complex atomic layer deposition / MoCVD and really fancy chemicals
Etching - dry and wet removing bits you want again in a pattern

Then annealed with heat, lamps and all sort of crazy shit. Layer by layer and a city is built.

Very complex and so many different areas of physics and chemistry...enough of the work....

 

[M1chl]

Still the Tempest Engine CU discussion. Concern trolls come and go, get schooled, and then come back some time later

The tempest engine is not one of the 40CUs, it's a separate hardware unit BASED on a CU. A child can grasp this.

I think it tough to grasp, that something for video can be used for audio, that's why people are....ummm.....concerned. But GPGPU has been here for a long time.

 

[Physiognomonics]

They detail their audio solution here:

greater SPFP HW math than al 8x CPUs in XBX

We always need to be careful with MS statements. SPFP means Single precision Float Point, so fp16.