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[BlueXImpulse]

30-60fps on XSX means performance can be still anywhere between 2060 and 2080ti. Nothing can be concluded based on this minecraft benchmark.

PS5 can run some games at 4K 60fps with RT (quantum error, GT7), so RT performance looks solid anyway.

Don't take it personal. It's a simple calculation. I agree, it's likely Series X was just locked to 30. It was more to calculate rough 2080ti performance, not to downplay Series X in anyway. My hope is that both consoles perform RT extremely well

 

[M1chl]

It's not an opinion or wild thoughts, it's official and said by Mark Cerny months back:

Sony is calling this innovation the Tempest 3D Audio Tech, which Cerny says "suggests a certain intensity of experience and also hints at your presence." The "tempest engine" is based on AMD's GPU technology, and is built around SPU-like architecture, which is not dissimilar to the PS3.

"The first goal was to create audio for everyone, not just VR users or sound bar owners or headphone users. That meant audio had to be part of the console, it couldn't be a peripheral. The second goal was to support hundreds of sound sources. We didn't want developers to have to pick and choose which sounds would get 3D effects and which wouldn't. We wanted every sound in the game to have dimensionality."

Cerny says the end goal with 3D audio is to get as close as possible to making players feel like "you're actually there," or that "you've entered the matrix." With the sound of rain, Cerny says, instead of using a single rain sound, the PS5 will allow developers to incorporate "lots of 3D audio sources for raindrops hitting the ground in all sorts of locations around you."

PS5 3D audio is designed to make you feel like "you're actually there"

Here's how the PS5 uses 3D audio to increase immersion

www.gamesradar.com

.

Some just like to act like a smartass and make fools of themselves while not paying attention of what's been officially shown.

We’re going to have a dedicated chip to work with audio, which means we finally won’t have to fight with programmers and artists for memory and CPU power.

We take for granted that graphics are powered by their own video cards. But in audio, we haven’t had anything like that. Now we have some power dedicated to us.

Xbox Series X Confirmed to Have Dedicated Audio Chip; Sound Developers "Won't Have to Fight Programmers and Artists for Memory and CPU Power.”

According to Ninja Theory senior sound designer Daniele Galante, the Xbox Series X will have a dedicated audio chip that will help sound designers considerably

wccftech.com

So XSX solution is good, but not "TEMPEST" good. It's meant to offload the CPU/RAM of basic sound and CPU-based 3D audio. It's not HRTF-based, true 3D Audio.

This is all awesome, but most people are going to use 5W speaker on the TV or 50USD headphones, will see what that brings. I think that Dolby Atmos for headphones is already good enough, it sounds awesome in supported games.

 

[Psyrgery ES]

The specs confirm 64ROPs so PD5 has a pixel fillrate advantage.

The PS5 has a pixel fillrate advantage, but it could be hampered by the lower bandwith.

The Ps4 Pro has a similar issue if I am not mistaken.

 

[mckmas8808]

For folks that don't care about anything we discuss here, and would never care to comprehend these hot chip slides. Dad's who want all the bells and whistles will get the SXS and buy their kids Lockhart for fortnite.

But if it cost $400, why not just buy them an X1S for Fortnite? Or allow them to keep their X1S and save on not getting a new console.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Well I am not so sure if audio really can be "GPU" based, probably best way is to create some ASIC for the audio processing, like X-FI does it back in the day with RAM on the side and stuff like that. Obviously now, just way more powerfull. But on that diagram of the chip that audio decoding part is pretty large...

Programming for GPGPU is very similar to programming the SPEs in the Cell SPU on the PS3. It's why Sony first party was ready to tackle GPGPU so efficiently. It also helped some third parties grasp onto that type of programming from their time with the PS3.

Tempest is basically a custom CU that acts like an SPE in the Cell. They also said it has more processing power than the entire Jaguar in current consoles if I remember correctly.

It's going to be a pretty potent part for audio. I am looking forward to it personally, since the audio did take a step down compared to the PS360 gen.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

This is all awesome, but most people are going to use 5W speaker on the TV or 50USD headphones, will see what that brings. I think that Dolby Atmos for headphones is already good enough, it sounds awesome in supported games.

It sounds good (Dolby Atmos) but it's fake and pretty limited, that's the truth of it. You don't need fancy headsets, only good quality headsets that support basic 2.0 Channel. That's why Dolby went bitching around after the PS5 GDC as they're not needed anymore for PS5.

It'll support all of them anyway, but it's more accurate with headsets.

Even basic TV stereo will have some special 3D audio simulation, most likely starting with Sony TV's.

And yes, every fucking droplet will produce its own sound, not a baked soundtrack put in some location.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Yeah even ReviewTechUSA kinda did a misleading clickbait video

Dude is all about the clicks. He ran a video yesterday calling the PS5 a 9.2TF machine, all about the drama sometimes, it seems. Barely corrects his mistakes as well in follow ups.

Lay off the internet troll drama, and stick to facts. Follow up with a video if said facts prior were wrong. Have some accountability. But I feel he is chasing that 1M subs more so.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

This part kind of grates me because it's not actually that true xD. Nowadays, yes, there aren't really any dedicated audio cards anymore, all audio is generally handled by CPU integrated features and whatnot. But up until the mid-2000s it was very common to have dedicated audio cards on PC, especially in the '80s and '90s.

Since CPUs weren't strong enough to handle good audio on their own audio cards were more necessary. It's neat to see there is consideration for dedicated audio hardware in the next-gen systems. Tempest does seem like it'll be the more robust audio solution out of the two but I think both approaches will be very sufficient for developers. The bigger issue with advanced audio is that to the layman it's a lot harder for them to "tell" the quality difference compared to graphics; keep in mind most people are going to be using integrated TV speakers which offer shit audio compared to dedicated audio setups or high-quality headphones.

I'd love if Sony could include those Pulse 3D headphones as standard in PS5 but that would jump the price up a damn bit.

It's still different from what sound cards used to do. I'm not sure where are those specialized HRTF applications are used and by whom, it's something as gamers we're not used to. It should be a massive jump in audio quality, and DICE, as a 3rd party, already planning to fully utilize it, and EA are one of the best in the industry when it comes to sounds and audio.

Still, not all players use headsets, so it's not smart to force it and spike the prices up like kinect.

thurnishaleygw has experience in music and HRTF stuff, he might chim in and enlighten us.

 

[pawel86ck]

Don't take it personal. It's a simple calculation. I agree, it's likely Series X was just locked to 30. It was more to calculate rough 2080ti performance, not to downplay Series X in anyway. My hope is that both consoles perform RT extremely well

According to DigitalFoundry minecraft on XSX was running at 30-60fps, not locked 30fps.

 

[jimbojim]

The specs confirm 64ROPs so PD5 has a pixel fillrate advantage.

So, this is it then. Mentioned it few times

Extrapolated from RDNA1:

Triangle rasterisation is 4 triangles per cycle.

PS5:
4 x 2.23 GHz ~ 8.92 Billion triangles per second

XSX:
4 x 1.825 GHz - 7.3 Billion triangles per second

Triangle culling rate is twice number triangles rasterised per cycle.

PS5:
8 x 2.23 GHz - 17.84 Billion triangles per second

XSX:
8 x 1.825 GHz - 14.6 Billion triangles per second

Pixel fillrate is with 4 shader arrays with 4 RBs (render backends) each, and each RB outputtting 4 pixels each. So 64 pixels per cycle.

PS5:
64 x 2.23 GHz - 142.72 Billion pixels per second

XSX:
64 x 1.825 GHz - 116.8 Billion pixels per second

Texture fillrate is based on 4 texture units (TMUs) per CU.

PS5:
4 x 36 x 2.23 GHz - 321.12 Billion texels per second

XSX:
4 x 52 x 1.825 GHz - 379.6 Billion texels per second

Raytracing in RDNA2 is alleged to be from modified TMUs.

PS5:
4 x 36 x 2.23 GHz - 321.12 Billion ray intersections per second

XSX:
4 x 52 x 1.825 GHz - 379.6 Billion Ray intersections per second

 

[M1chl]

It's still different from what sound cards used to do. I'm not sure where are those specialized HRTF applications were used and by whom, it's something as gamers we're not used to. It should be a massive jump in audio quality, and DICE, as a 3rd party, already planning to fully utilize it, and EA are one of the best in the industry when it comes to sounds and audio.

Still, not all players use headsets, so it's not smart to force it and spike the prices up like kinect.

No actually Open AL did a lot of cool tricks, but then Creative bought some licences to the wel know Audio API and basically development stopped and also Win Vista is responsible, so it's nice to see some development finally.

 

[splattered]

It sounds good but it's fake and pretty limited, that's the truth of it. You don't need fancy headsets, only good quality headset that support basic 2.0 Channel. That's why Dolby went bitching around after the PS5 GDC as they're not needed anymore for PS5.

It'll support all of them anyway, but it's more accurate with headsets.

Even basic TV stereo will have some special 3D audio simulation, most likely starting with Sony TV's.

And yes, every fucking droplet will produce its own sound, not a baked soundtrack put in some location.

No one cares about individual droplets.

90% of consumers aren't going to know the difference or even care to buy more expensive audio equipment to experience it. If they hear an improvement in their 5w TV speakers they aren't going to recognize or appreciate it.

I can see this maybe providing an advantage in competitive FPS games or something and people running out to buy expensive headsets but that's about it.

Money was far better spent on R&D for the SSD over the Tempest Engine IMO.

 

[JLMC469]

So, Series X is still stronger than the PS5?

 

[dwish]

I remember Matt Hargett saying something interesting about RT bounces maybe scaling better with high freqs due to the fact that the CUs can keep the result of the previous hit in their cache and keep working on the same ray with higher speed. Sharing rays among CUs would mean the overhead of copying hit results between caches.

It sounds sensible to me though I dont know much about it. Thoughts?

 

[DeepEnigma]

No one cares about individual droplets.

90% of consumers aren't going to know the difference or even care to buy more expensive audio equipment to experience it. If they hear an improvement in their 5w TV speakers they aren't going to recognize or appreciate it.

I can see this maybe providing an advantage in competitive FPS games or something and people running out to buy expensive headsets but that's about it.

Money was far better spent on R&D for the SSD over the Tempest Engine IMO.

I care. I'm all about the more immersive audio. Once it's experienced, it's hard to go back to flat audio.

Both consoles should be a major step up in that department, since this gen was a step back.

 

[TBiddy]

You seem to have difficulties in understanding things, please don't waste my time again. Have said million times that XSX has an audio chip, and it's already been officially confirmed with no space for speculation to begin with, but according to Ninja Theory the reference of it being offloading CPU. So it's more of a CPU based 3D audio solution, while PS5's is using cache-less, SPU-like CU chip that meant to do overwhelming amount raytraced, detailed sounds, with much spare for even contribution to help both the CPU/GPU in game-related calculation.

If you wanna have true 3D audio, you must use the GPU, or GPU-based chip like the Tempest, or use the main GPU to compensate for that. If you know better than AMD, then that's pretty funny:




Now get lost.

Always so aggresive when you get called out.

Let's just go back and take a look at what you wrote. "Barely better than current-gen". The audio-block is more powerful than the entirety of the CPU in the X1X. I'm not sure why you're bringing the PS5 into this, unless you're just here to console war as usual.

Everything is pointing towards the audio in the XSX being a massive step up compared with X1X.

 

[jimbojim]

How do you know XSX has similar RT performance compared to RTX 2060? Minecraft benchmark chart is showing 30fps average on RTX 2060 (minimum was probably lower than 30fps), while minecraft on XSX run anywhere from 30-60fps.

30-60fps on XSX means performance can be still anywhere between 2060 and 2080ti. Nothing can be concluded based on this minecraft benchmark.

PS5 can run some games at 4K 60fps with RT (quantum error, GT7), so RT performance looks solid anyway.

Mind you that 2060 in TF is weaker card than XSX, but it has higher RT performance number than on XSX. According to Nvidia RTX OPS numbers. Close to 40 TF

 

[Bo_Hazem]

No one cares about individual droplets.

90% of consumers aren't going to know the difference or even care to buy more expensive audio equipment to experience it. If they hear an improvement in their 5w TV speakers they aren't going to recognize or appreciate it.

I can see this maybe providing an advantage in competitive FPS games or something and people running out to buy expensive headsets but that's about it.

Money was far better spent on R&D for the SSD over the Tempest Engine IMO.

You don't care, and that's ok. I do care, many others, most importantly the ones seeking good quality headsets, do care as well. For TV users, not sure how it'll work.

Before jumping to conclusion, it's better to experience it first, and I'm extremely happy that they've made the tempest, which only needs half of its power for audio and will assist the CPU/GPU in other calculations to boost performance. And it's pretty critical for VR gaming.

 

[geordiemp]

So, Series X is still stronger than the PS5?

Not really, they will perform similarly.

Ps5 better rasterisation and pixel fill rate / General caches, XSX stronger on shaders and Ray tracing.

Ps5 likely has a patent on compression of GPU vertices shader transfer to pixel shader which will pick up some slack, how much is unknown

Both are nice, doing things differently

 

[Barakov]

So, Series X is still stronger than the PS5?

Yes/No and No/Yes.

 

[VideodromeX]

Not really, they will perform similarly.

Ps5 better rasterisation and pixel fill rate / General caches, XSX stronger on shaders and Ray tracing.

Ps5 likely has a patent on compression of GPU vertices shader transfer to pixel shader which will pick up some slack, how much is unknown

Both are nice, doing things differently

ahahahahaah its incredible how hard people try to make PS5 on the same power level of XSX.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Always so aggresive when you get called out.

Let's just go back and take a look at what you wrote. "Barely better than current-gen". The audio-block is more powerful than the entirety of the CPU in the X1X. I'm not sure why you're bringing the PS5 into this, unless you're just here to console war as usual.

Everything is pointing towards the audio in the XSX being a massive step up compared with X1X.

You still trying to make a fool of yourself? And yes current gen includes PC, and includes GPU-based raytraced audio, maybe you don't have that in your book:






The last one is 6 years old, and can't be done with CPU-based solution. But continue with throwing silly posts then calling others "worst of the worst" in the speculation thread because you can't discuss tech with others. Try to learn something for once.

 

[EverydayBeast]

Xbox Series X is literally a beast

 

[Marlenus]

Not really, they will perform similarly.

Ps5 better rasterisation and pixel fill rate / General caches, XSX stronger on shaders and Ray tracing.

Ps5 likely has a patent on compression of GPU vertices shader transfer to pixel shader which will pick up some slack, how much is unknown

Both are nice, doing things differently

They will be similar but in multiplats expect the Series X to have a slight advantage on average. Nothing as big as this gen and I expect most of the advantage to be utilised maintaining smoother framerates for non fps locked games.

 

[TBiddy]

You still trying to make a fool of yourself? And yes current gen includes PC, maybe you don't have that in your book:

The last one is 6 years old, and can't be done with CPU-based solution. But continue with throwing silly posts then calling others "worst of the worst" in the speculation thread because you can't discuss tech with others. Try to learn something for once.

Why so aggressive?

You made a silly post about the audio capabilities of the XSX a few months ago. I quoted it here, because you also back then got really aggressive, even though we didn't know shit about the audio chip in the XSX. Now we do, and your argument back then, that it is "barely better than next-gen" looks even more silly now. The audio chip in the XSX looks to be really good and a large step up from last gen.

I assume you brought up Tempest in an attempt to shift the focus, for some reason.

 

[geordiemp]

ahahahahaah its incredible how hard people try to make PS5 on the same power level of XSX.

Not that funny really - have you seen anything that makes you think that in how games run ?

They will be similar but in multiplats expect the Series X to have a slight advantage on average. Nothing as big as this gen and I expect most of the advantage to be utilised maintaining smoother framerates for non fps locked games.

Anyone thinking games are going to look much different on 3rd party will be serverely dissapointed. All AAA will have dynamic resolution anyway, its not last decade.

You need to spend time looking at all numbers, not just shader performance.

 

[M1chl]

Stop with console warring, take that into Next-gen speculation, nobody cares here about Sony or Nintendo.

 

[Insane Metal]

So, this is it then. Mentioned it few times

Extrapolated from RDNA1:

Triangle rasterisation is 4 triangles per cycle.

PS5:
4 x 2.23 GHz ~ 8.92 Billion triangles per second

XSX:
4 x 1.825 GHz - 7.3 Billion triangles per second

Triangle culling rate is twice number triangles rasterised per cycle.

PS5:
8 x 2.23 GHz - 17.84 Billion triangles per second

XSX:
8 x 1.825 GHz - 14.6 Billion triangles per second

Pixel fillrate is with 4 shader arrays with 4 RBs (render backends) each, and each RB outputtting 4 pixels each. So 64 pixels per cycle.

PS5:
64 x 2.23 GHz - 142.72 Billion pixels per second

XSX:
64 x 1.825 GHz - 116.8 Billion pixels per second

Texture fillrate is based on 4 texture units (TMUs) per CU.

PS5:
4 x 36 x 2.23 GHz - 321.12 Billion texels per second

XSX:
4 x 52 x 1.825 GHz - 379.6 Billion texels per second

Raytracing in RDNA2 is alleged to be from modified TMUs.

PS5:
4 x 36 x 2.23 GHz - 321.12 Billion ray intersections per second

XSX:
4 x 52 x 1.825 GHz - 379.6 Billion Ray intersections per second

That's it.

Both are really close, both have advantages and disadvantages but nothing huge compared to one another. Which is absolutely great for us consumers.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Why so aggressive?

You made a silly post about the audio capabilities of the XSX a few months ago. I quoted it here, because you also back then got really aggressive, even though we didn't know shit about the audio chip in the XSX. Now we do, and your argument back then, that it is "barely better than next-gen" looks even more silly now. The audio chip in the XSX looks to be really good and a large step up from last gen.

I assume you brought up Tempest in an attempt to shift the focus, for some reason.

Because that post is still 100% true, but you still don't understand, don't want to understand, don't want to read, and wasting my time. Now this has been explained extensively from my side, and nothing to add. Go read what's written.

 

[geordiemp]

Stop with console warring, take that into Next-gen speculation, nobody cares here about Sony or Nintendo.

Thanks, I just want to discuss specs and semi design, but some just want to wave power around, mayeb I will go discuss somehwre else, not going to get any sense here.

 

[TBiddy]

Because that post is still 100% true, but you still don't understand, don't want to understand, don't want to read, and wasting my time. Now this has been explained extensively from my side, and nothing to add. Go read what's written.

Yes, it is 100% true that the audio chip in the XSX is barely better than the one in XB1. Especially if we ignore the fact that it's faster than the cpu in the X1X. Makes absolutely perfect sense. Now, go make some memes and talk about Tempest in the next-gen thread instead.

 

[splattered]

I care. I'm all about the more immersive audio. Once it's experience, it's hard to go back to flat audio.

Both consoles should be a major step up in that department, since this gen was a step back.

You don't care, and that's ok. I do care, many others, most importantly once seeking good quality headsets, do care as well. For TV users, not sure how it'll work.

Before jumping to conclusion, it's better to experience it first, and I'm extremely happy that they've made the tempest, which only needs half of its power for audio and will assist the CPU/GPU in other calculations to boost performance. And it's pretty critical for VR gaming.

That's what i'm saying... 10% will care maybe? I feel like Sony should have spent less money on their audio solution and more on higher ram bandwidth just as an example.

I appreciate that both PS5 and XsX have audio chips and will push the tech forward, i just feel like Sony went overboard with it when resources could have gone to other areas of the console instead.

 

[Mod of War]

Stop with console warring, take that into Next-gen speculation, nobody cares here about Sony or Nintendo.

This.

I will add, that there is room for discussion with both consoles for contrast and comparison when the questions arise, but do so tactfully without attempting to get a rise in the process.

 

[Investor9872]

So Zen2 with 8MB L3 cache, not that much tho. CPU is probably around AMD RYZEN 7 PRO 4750G .





Seems like it's not going to be cheap:



Seems like MS have some Audio secret sauce too:


More slides here:

Microsoft Xbox Series X's AMD Architecture Deep Dive at Hot Chips 2020

AMD's next-gen console APUs come out of hiding.

www.tomshardware.com

Now that is a beast! A modern day Goliath when compared to a Nintendo Switch. But you can't sell well without amazing software, which Nintendo and Sony have in abundance. Hopefully, some of those 16 studios that MS bought will produce some amazing games if the XB Series X is going to survive.

 

[M1chl]

Thanks, I just want to discuss specs and semi design, but some just want to wave power around, mayeb I will go discuss somehwre else, not going to get any sense here.

Well it's also going to be Hot Chips for PS5, no need to bring some aggressive debate in here. It's always the same...

 

[Psyrgery ES]

I took this screencap from a post in Beyond3D way back in March where some guy was discussing the bandwith differences between both consoles. He argued es some of the advantages of the Ps5 could be negates by its bandwith

 

[geordiemp]

Well it's also going to be Hot Chips for PS5, no need to bring some aggressive debate in here. It's always the same...

It would be nice to read more about the ray tracing info, see if its up on b3d yet

 

[M1chl]

It would be nice to read more about the ray tracing info, see if its up on b3d yet

Yeah, not sure when is that conference...

 

[DeepEnigma]

That's what i'm saying... 10% will care maybe? I feel like Sony should have spent less money on their audio solution and more on higher ram bandwidth just as an example.

I appreciate that both PS5 and XsX have audio chips and will push the tech forward, i just feel like Sony went overboard with it when resources could have gone to other areas of the console instead.

Depends on how much it cost them in contrast to RAM. They do want a synergy between their other entertainment products (film, music).

Sony is also investing in the VR arena, so that type of audio is paramount with said immersion.

 

[pawel86ck]

Not really, they will perform similarly.

Ps5 better rasterisation and pixel fill rate / General caches, XSX stronger on shaders and Ray tracing.

Ps5 likely has a patent on compression of GPU vertices shader transfer to pixel shader which will pick up some slack, how much is unknown

Both are nice, doing things differently

If this will be the case and both consoles will offer pretty much the same results then there will be no point in console warring. I cant imagine being nice to you for the next 7 years .

 

[TBiddy]

Yeah, not sure when is that conference...

2 hours and 20 minutes, give or take. I don't think it'll be livestreamed, unless you pay for it. I hope there'll be some translations from Beyond3d to some of the deeper aspects of the APU.

 

[sircaw]

Thanks, I just want to discuss specs and semi design, but some just want to wave power around, mayeb I will go discuss somehwre else, not going to get any sense here.

You want sense, I am here Geordie.
give me your best shot, go on Try me.

 

[Marlenus]

Not that funny really - have you seen anything that makes you think that in how games run ?



Anyone thinking games are going to look much different on 3rd party will be serverely dissapointed. All AAA will have dynamic resolution anyway, its not last decade.

You need to spend time looking at all numbers, not just shader performance.

Rasterisation performance, memory bandwidth and going forward ray tracing performance are the main 3 metrics that matter. The series X is a little bit ahead in all 3 and this will lead to slightly better performance in multiplats.

 

[Bo_Hazem]

Yes, it is 100% true that the audio chip in the XSX is barely better than the one in XB1. Especially if we ignore the fact that it's faster than the cpu in the X1X. Makes absolutely perfect sense. Now, go make some memes and talk about Tempest in the next-gen thread instead.

 

[sircaw]

That series was never the same when he left. FS

 

[Entroyp]

Wait.. Sony will be at Hot Chips too?? What?

 

[The Hamburglar]

12TFs baby

 

[psorcerer]

I took this screencap from a post in Beyond3D way back in March where some guy was discussing the bandwith differences between both consoles. He argued es some of the advantages of the Ps5 could be negates by its bandwith

We discussed Sony's ROP bandwidth compression patent recently.
May get to 2x speed it seems...

 

[Thirty7ven]

Fits nicely with everything that has been speculated. No surprises left I guess.

I’m expecting a 549$/599$ console, with XSS at 349$/399$, maybe 299$ without a controller and all digital.

 

[VideodromeX]

Wait.. Sony will be at Hot Chips too?? What?

Program | Hot Chips: A Symposium on High Performance Chips

www.hotchips.org