• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Microsoft's Windows Store games to limit standard PC user control options (PcPer)

D

Dictator93

Member
Ryan of PcPer just posted his article on the "controversy" surrounding how frametimes and frame pacing are being measured under DX12 at the moment. It appears as if MS is trying to enforce limitations on user control via DX12, similar to how this works currently on the windows 10 store. For example, the ability to turn off Vsync, implement your own overlay, use Gsync or GFE, or inject any .dll is currently complex... and probably not possible in its currently planned state.

Link here

Choice quoting:
Even though Ashes of the Singularity is not a Windows Store application, the behavior we are seeing is part of the push that Microsoft is making to sell games through that store with a unified platform. The debate of app store based games versus free standing and open gaming has been a debate in the community since MS first starting discussing it – we just happen to have a real-world implication of it in front of us today.
Click to expand...

Also, though maybe not as apparent, multi-GPU technologies like SLI and CrossFire will not work the same way they do today with MS app store games, even if they are not using DX12. Because the executable files are being sandboxed, much of the work that goes into properly doing AFR, including the many game specific tricks from each company, will be unusable. We knew that this new version of Direct X would require game developers to integrate their own multi-GPU workloads, but it seems that even if a game is using DX11 and is sold through the app store, the same requirement will apply.

This post over at the PC Master Race subreddit gives even more examples of things that are going to change for games that are released through Microsoft’s Store implementation. No modding, no custom mouse bindings, no controller support outside of Xbox controllers; clearly this is going to shake up our lives as PC gamers. I also don’t think that you’ll be able to live stream out your games through XSplit and OBS either.
Click to expand...

edit: I updated the OP to reflect the more controversial parts of the article
 
D

Dictator93

Member
There is a ton of information in here about MS plans for DX12 and what it means for user control regarding Vsync, overlays, and otherwise. IMO, given what Ryan has written about, things do not look that great if you enjoy the ability to have your own overlay, use GFE recording, and writing 3rd party tools for your games (GeDoSaTo, Reshade, etc.).

Also, for those who just care about getting more games:
This is clearly a discussion that is just at its beginning. My gut tells me that Ashes of the Singularity is just the tip of the iceberg, even if the AMD exclusive fullscreen issue gets ironed out with another driver update or game patch. Starting this week, you’ll see games hitting the Microsoft Store that are not going to be available anywhere else, giving gamers no option other that diving into this storm headfirst should they want to get their Gears on. At least for now, we still have Steam, Origin and dare I say it, Uplay, to help us create a more open PC gaming ecosystem.
Click to expand...

Sounds like Gears of War PC is coming out this week?
 
W

Wowfunhappy

Member
If I'm understanding this correctly, on AMD cards, if you turn vsync off, you get "true tripple buffering", instead of tearing, while this is impossible under nVidia and Intel.

...that's... odd. And unfortunate for nVidia users, IMO.
 
D

Dictator93

Member
Wowfunhappy said:
If I'm understanding this correctly, on AMD cards, if you turn vsync off, you get "true tripple buffering", instead of tearing, while this is impossible under nVidia and Intel.

...that's... odd. And unfortunate for nVidia users, IMO.
Click to expand...

You are reading a bit incorrectly, rather intel and NV have the ability to turn Vsync off and tear (forcing the next frameout regardless of proper sync as I understand it) while AMD, as per the current driver, maintains Vsync behaviour.
Irobot82 said:
This article terrifies me. I'm beginning to wonder if Vulcan can make some inroads with all of this.
Click to expand...

Yes, it is terrifying (and terrifying that this thread is not getting lots of comments). Perhaps I should have named it "DX12 is evil".
I hope Vulkan sees more uptake.
 
E

epmode

Member
I swear, Microsoft is the worst thing for PC gaming. DirectX has always been an exception but I'm not so sure anymore.
 
W

Wowfunhappy

Member
Dictator93 said:
You are reading a bit incorrectly, rather intel and NV have the ability to turn Vsync off and tear (forcing the next frameout regardless of proper sync as I understand it) while AMD, as per the current driver, maintains Vsync behaviour.
Click to expand...


How do I get triple buffering then, though?

It seems like depending on which manufacturer you use, you lose the ability to enable either: (1) Triple Buferring or (B) Vsync Off.

I personally think Triple Buffering is more important, but I'm sure a ton of people would disagree with me.
 
K

Kezen

Banned
This is not good news for benchmarking and performance analysises. Hopefully Microsoft makes it easier for those softwares to work.
Will forcing AF through the driver even work with UWA games ?


And yes it sounds like at least Gears will release this week, the game is reportedly being reviewed as we speak.
 
D

Dictator93

Member
Gareth Bale said:
I got the Gears part, but you reckon that's what they mean when they say starting next week?

I can't see them stealth releasing it. I know it's been released before, but it's still a big deal.
Click to expand...
I actually think they will (stealth) release it, but it will not be too stealthy because the embargo for talking about it will end tomorrow. So it won't be stealthy really, it just will not have had a big media build up.

But this is all very Off-topic to the thread topic.
---

Back on topic: I wonder why AMDs driver is currently following the MS lead in this atm.
 
E

epmode

Member
wazoo said:
I will not buy any game not supporting g-sync.
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure that G-Sync will still work with these games. It definitely works with the W10 Store version of Tomb Raider and I think it works with Ashes of the Singularity.
 
T

Tain

Member
Lame as hell that exclusive fullscreen might be on the way out. So lame. I was pissed about the forced desktop composition stuff in Windows 8, this is the next step I guess.

I don't expect it to be an issue for variable refresh rates, or at least in the near future, for gsync. Why would it behave any differently than playing games in a window (which g-sync is now compatible with), after all?

Once everyone's display is variable refresh rate having everything go through a compositor makes a lot of sense. Right now, though, it's too soon to start.
 
S

SunBroDave

Member
Hmmm very excited/apprehensive about reading this when I get home. I shall return to this thread after receiving the good word of Shrout
 
N

No_Style

Member
Thank you for posting this. Very interesting stuff coming down the pipeline from Microsoft.

The big question is: Does MS allow the FlipEx DirectX feature to be used like NVIDIA did? Or will they force NVIDIA and Intel to conform? Will AMD incorporate the FlipEX feature knowing that people like exclusive full screen.

There's a lot to digest in that article though. I pretty much agree with MS wanting eliminate screen tearing and sandboxing the EXE but I know not everyone agrees with me.

Locking stuff is very un-PC like however, we've been down this similar road before; see web browsers. Plugins have fallen by the wayside in favor of extensions and the only way to appease people is some form of authorized modding. MS and/or developers need to allow people to create overlays and sanctioned extensions/mods.

Or perhaps this is when Vulkan and Linux (Steam OS) finally rise to the forefront.
 
StereoVsn

StereoVsn

Member
Just read through the article. This is a terrible future for PC gaming and I really hope Vulcan takes off. This is just reenforcing the fact that one should avoid Windows Store games like a plague. I can leave without new Gears or Quantum Break as there are plenty of other games that do not lock down the PC like a console/mobile wallgarden. I have iOS, Android and console for that.

What is really pissing me off is the attempt by MS to force shit through DirectX 12 API. Oh, and pox on AMD for going along. I will take Getorce Experience shenanigans before going this damn shortsighted route AMD is taking.
 
S

Spirited

Mine is pretty and pink
Doesn't look promising at all, really hope Microsoft changes at least some things or that vulkan gets bigger support than dx12.
 
T

Tain

Member
Akronis said:
Get fucked Microsoft, Vulkan forever.
Click to expand...

Maybe if Vulkan gets adopted by the most demanding games and they demonstrate that it's the API that will give the best results.

But I do think that running everything through a compositor makes sense in the long run. Other operating systems do it that way, VR stuff is doing it that way. Microsoft's phasing something out that shouldn't yet be phased out, and that sucks, but eventually when everyone's display is flexible and we don't have to worry about vsync lag anymore what will the point of exclusive fullscreen mode be?

or maybe I'm too optimistic about the future of display technology? lol
 
M

Maintenance

Member
They never want applications to enter into anything that resembles a “Vsync off” state, which front buffer flips that lead to horizontal tearing.
Click to expand...

Damn. What's the point of getting more performance with DX12 if you bring shitty Vsync with it.
 
W

Wowfunhappy

Member
Maintenance said:
Damn. What's the point of getting more performance with DX12 if you bring shitty Vsync with it.
Click to expand...

...I guess my question would be, why on earth do you want to play without V-Sync?

I mean, I actually do know why—you get slightly less input lag, potentially higher framerates, etc. But damn, I don't understand how people are able to tolerate the screen tearing; it's really bad. And I suspect that's what Microsoft thinks to.

Which isn't to say they're right, given that PC gaming is about options, but...
 
N

Nzyme32

Member
Urgh. God damn it. Maybe there will be enough of a fuss to force a change or maybe Vulkan can become competitive enough to force change.
 
D

Dictator93

Member
Wowfunhappy said:

Which isn't to say they're right, given that PC gaming is about options, but...
Click to expand...
That would be the answer to your question.

Preferences can be different regarding this, and arguably, the higher your refresh rate (and framerate along side it), the less intrusive tearing will be.

The bigger point though is that user control is key in pc gaming, and taking that away for dubious reasons, is not cool.
 
P

Poodlestrike

Banned
Okay, so... I'm not totally on top of this. I'm not really technically conversant on this stuff. So feel free to tell me I don't know what I'm talking about, but the issues as I understand them are:

-Vsync implementation is maybe mandatory atm the moment and maybe not (turning it off works on NVidia, but not on AMD). It's fucked.

-Exclusive Fullscreen is also fucked. I do not understand the implications of this.

-The reason these things are fucked is because DX12 interacts with the WDDM differently, or maybe it's that the WDDM is now different. I think both? DX12 doesn't/can't/won't bypass the compositor which is how these things used to be done.

So, question one: is this fixable? Is this something MS can alleviate? (I'm not going to ask "will they," because that's a much bigger thing and nobody can really say one way or the other for sure).

Or is this something that inherent to DX12 and is never ever ever going away? I know that they said they were working on Vsync disabling wrt to the store, is this different?
 
P

Phinor

Member
Wowfunhappy said:
...I guess my question would be, why on earth do you want to play without V-Sync?

I mean, I actually do know why—you get slightly less input lag, potentially higher framerates, etc.
Click to expand...

My question would be why anyone would ever use vsync unless the game is really casual gamepad game. For me, input lag has been the reason for vsync off for nearly two decades now and I'm not going to change my stance on that. Vsync makes some games completely unplayable with a mouse while tearing is just a visual artifact. Artifact that no longer exists thanks to Gsync AND I get to keep my input lag at minimum.

What I'd like to know however is how to get 60 fps lock out of non-exclusive full screen games? My main monitor is 144Hz Gsync monitor, with two 60Hz monitors on the side and every non-exclusive fullscreen (borderless windowed) game is 60 fps locked. If Windows store doesn't support proper fullscreen, would I be forever 60 fps locked in Windows store games? Is it because of my side monitors or do others have similar issues with different setups?

Anyway, good article. We need to know as much as possible to give feedback before it's too late. With Tomb Raider we had Steam release so that wasn't a huge issue but soon enough Windows Store gets exclusive games that might be ruined forever by limitations.
 
W

Wowfunhappy

Member
Phinor said:
My question would be why anyone would ever use vsync unless the game is really casual gamepad game. For me, input lag has been the reason for vsync off for nearly two decades now and I'm not going to change my stance on that. Vsync makes some games completely unplayable with a mouse while tearing is just a visual artifact. Artifact that no longer exists thanks to Gsync AND I get to keep my input lag at minimum.

What I'd like to know however is how to get 60 fps lock out of non-exclusive full screen games? My main monitor is 144Hz Gsync monitor, with two 60Hz monitors on the side and every non-exclusive fullscreen (borderless windowed) game is 60 fps locked. If Windows store doesn't support proper fullscreen, would I be forever 60 fps locked in Windows store games? Is it because of my side monitors or do others have similar issues with different setups?

Anyway, good article. We need to know as much as possible to give feedback before it's too late. With Tomb Raider we had Steam release so that wasn't a huge issue but soon enough Windows Store gets exclusive games that might be ruined forever by limitations.
Click to expand...

But keep in mind, correctly-implemented triple buffering (which--if I'm reading this right--is what happens on AMD if you turn off VSync) reduces input lag a great deal compared to common V-Sync setups.

In other words, with triple buffering we get the same high actual performance and similar decreased input lag of a vsync disabled setup while achieving the visual quality and smoothness of leaving vsync enabled
[...]
The software is still drawing the entire time behind the scenes on the two back buffers when triple buffering. This means that when the front buffer swap happens, unlike with double buffering and vsync, we don't have artificial delay. And unlike with double buffering without vsync, once we start sending a fully rendered frame to the monitor, we don't switch to another frame in the middle.

This last point does bring to bear the one issue with triple buffering. A frame that completes just a tiny bit after the refresh, when double buffering without vsync, will tear near the top and the rest of the frame would carry a bit less lag for most of that refresh than triple buffering which would have to finish drawing the frame it had already started. Even in this case, though, at least part of the frame will be the exact same between the double buffered and triple buffered output and the delay won't be significant, nor will it have any carryover impact on future frames like enabling vsync on double buffering does. And even if you count this as an advantage of double buffering without vsync, the advantage only appears below a potential tear.
Click to expand...
http://www.anandtech.com/show/2794/2

Now, if I had a GSync or FreeSync monitor, I'd be pissed, since that's obviously better than even Triple Bufferring—but I suspect this will be ironed out in time. Since FreeSync is a standard, it's in Microsoft's interest to support it, and, well, it's in nVidia's best interest to not get left behind.
 
J

JaggedSac

Member
MS mentioned they were going to fix v-sync issue I believe. We thought it was a UWP issue but maybe it was this DX issue causing it.
 
L

Leb

Member
When the Rhineland was remilitarized, well, that was mildly concerning, but ultimately the incident didn't warrant any stern condemnation. And sure, no one was pleased with the Anschluss but in light of the particular circumstances, the response was understandably muted. And of course, while the recent annexation of the Sudetenland was deeply troubling, the Munich Agreement is now in full force and it's clear that any immediate danger has passed.

Now, I know that some alarmists are pointing out that, even as we speak, troops are amassing along the Polish corridor, but in spite of the somewhat checkered past of the principals, I am very confident that a corner has been turned and that all parties involved are sincerely invested in working together to resolve any issues that might arise.

Let's not rush to any hasty judgements, is all I'm suggesting.
 
P

Poodlestrike

Banned
Leb said:
When the Rhineland was remilitarized, well, that was mildly concerning, but ultimately the incident didn't warrant any stern condemnation. And sure, no one was pleased with the Anschluss but in light of the particular circumstances, the response was understandably muted. And of course, while the recent annexation of the Sudetenland was deeply troubling, the Munich Agreement is now in full force and it's clear that any immediate danger has passed.

Now, I know that some alarmists are pointing out that, even as we speak, troops are amassing along the Polish corridor, but in spite of the somewhat checkered past of the principals, I am very confident that a corner has been turned and that all parties involved are sincerely invested in working together to resolve any issues that might arise.

Let's not rush to any hasty judgements, is all I'm suggesting.
Click to expand...

Are we comparing MS to the Nazis now.

Is that what's going on.
 
T

Tain

Member
Leb said:
When the Rhineland was remilitarized, well, that was mildly concerning, but ultimately the incident didn't warrant any stern condemnation. And sure, no one was pleased with the Anschluss but in light of the particular circumstances, the response was understandably muted. And of course, while the recent annexation of the Sudetenland was deeply troubling, the Munich Agreement is now in full force and it's clear that any immediate danger has passed.

Now, I know that some alarmists are pointing out that, even as we speak, troops are amassing along the Polish corridor, but in spite of the somewhat checkered past of the principals, I am very confident that a corner has been turned and that all parties involved are sincerely invested in working together to resolve any issues that might arise.

Let's not rush to any hasty judgements, is all I'm suggesting.
Click to expand...

yeah, it's totally reasonable to compare MS phasing a feature out of its own operating system to the actions of Nazi Germany

not at all weird
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Microsoft Build will detail ‘next generation’ of Windows on Arm and new AI features
2 3
100
5K
StereoVsn replied
  • Poll
Palworld has, once again, highlighted the on going deficiencies in PC Game Pass and the Xbox app on Windows 11 (Windows Central)
Hardware Platform 2 3
111
11K
Unknown Soldier replied
Nvidia has a new graphics Control panel
Analysis 2 3
123
8K
YeulEmeralda replied
Microsoft is improving its Xbox app for Windows handheld gaming PCs
News Community Business
18
2K
THE DUCK replied
Sea of Thieves on PS5 reveals Microsoft's Trojan Horse to turn millions of PS5 users into Xbox users
8 9 10 11 12
555
24K
Sneakysnake replied
Top Bottom