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[Muppet of a Man]

Hey, but the Xbox brand and the Windows 10 platform unifying is great guys, right!? Right?!? (Please clap / Pls respond)

 

[IMACOMPUTA]

Console and PC meet in the middle to create a Microsoft hell for us all to burn.

 

[Riddick]

Vulcan please save us.

 

[SerTapTap]

Ugh. I've been 100% supportive of Windows 10 as an OS (other than forced updates, and Cortana sucks), but I never expected DirectX12 would be like this. Hell, I made a thread about restrictions like this on Windows Store apps but never thought DX12 would have some of the same issues.

They've been good at being receptive to Xbox feedback this gen, I hope they're as willing to change plans regarding PC stuff.

 

[Gbraga]

Vulcan please save us.

Vulcan will look down and whisper "No".

 

[Easy_D]

Thank god for Vulkan.

 

[dofry]

Hmmm, worrying development but not unexpected. Alternatives already exist, the problem is that will they become the standard to combat this problem. Earlier I was all like "don't care about Windows Store as long as the game from console arrives to PC". However, now I'll skip Win Store for games as I've read enough worrying stuff against it, including DX12 issues. Might be because it's a fairly new thing so things will change a bit over time, might be that they only get worse. And I'm going with things getting worse.

 

[nynt9]

This is what I expected to happen since Microsoft said they will take PC gaming seriously. Every time they took it seriously, they tried to lock it down. Here we're seeing it happen again. Hopefully the industry will be wiser to these tactics this time and not play by their standards, but they have the money to back it up, so who knows.

Goddammit.

 

[SapientWolf]

...I guess my question would be, why on earth do you want to play without V-Sync?

I mean, I actually do know why—you get slightly less input lag, potentially higher framerates, etc. But damn, I don't understand how people are able to tolerate the screen tearing; it's really bad. And I suspect that's what Microsoft thinks to.

Which isn't to say they're right, given that PC gaming is about options, but...

Screen tearing isn't noticeable at high refresh rates. I unlock and rock always. The input lag is horribad with vsync.

I'm on Gsync now, so best of both worlds there.

 

[Lilalaunebaer]

MS: This time for real guys, this time we´re gonna do it right guys. We didn´t in the past, but his time. You just wait....

...
...

GWFL 2.0 but even worse.

 

[ps3ud0]

Am I being stupid? Does this have any implications on VR?

Ive been biding my time (Im probably gonna get PSVR and then see how PC VR matures as I want things like foveated rendering to happen) looking forward to getting a PC together because I think VR is that special an event and now Im kinda worried that all this stuff with DX12 might just keep me off the platform completely.

ps3ud0 8)

 

[GHG]

And they say they have learnt from their mistakes.

And they told us they would do better for PC gamers.

They don't get it do they?

The ironic thing is it would actually be easier for them to give us what we want instead of making an effort to make things difficult for everyone.

 

[Turin Turambar]

Why the title? The article specified it's the windows store, it isn't dx12 (except the vsync working different). I suppose it serves to know who reads the article and who reads just the title.

 

[jblank83]

Someone needs to create an open source DX solution.

 

[Dictator93]

Why the title? The article specified it's the windows store, it isn't dx12 (except the vsync working different). I suppose it serves to know who reads the article and who reads just the title.

Because the article implies that DX12's core design are about applying those same policies through the API.

Even though Ashes of the Singularity is not a Windows Store application, the behavior we are seeing is part of the push that Microsoft is making to sell games through that store with a unified platform.

DX12 has (by its current design!) the other problems that Win10 Store apps also currently have: Gsync problems, overlay problems (hence the FCAT issue), .dll problems, GFE problems. The Vsync forcing issue is part of the afformentioned as well.

 

[megarockexe]

Why the title? The article specified it's the windows store, it isn't dx12 (except the vsync working different). I suppose it serves to know who reads the article and who reads just the title.

Right? 2 pages of outrage and they're just the Windows Store limitations everyone already knew about. DX12 inherently doesn't and shouldn't have these limitations.

 

[L4DANathan]

Console and PC meet in the middle to create a Microsoft hell for us all to burn.

Cast aside your false idols of freedom, ownership, and dignity and bask in the scorching glow of your new masters.

 

[MutonCommander]

Well this all sounds extremely shitty. I don't want PC to mean Personal Console, PC means freedom and options. Vulkan is even more important now.

 

[callsignkrogan]

This is crazy. I really hope this is just misinformation on what the code actually entails. If nvidia and amd are forced to work around dx12, it has lost its usefulness and will lead to people jumping off of it.

 

[backstep]

From a developer's perspective this article seems a bit muddled. Really they should have someone who understands the APIs that they're discussing a bit more.

Skip to the TLDR if you don't care for details.

The first thing is implications of the change from WDDM 1.3 to WDDM 2.0 that affect presenting to the screen. Under WDDM 1.3 the typical win32 app (non windows-store app) either presents directly to the screen in exclusive fullscreen mode, or presents to an intermediate surface that is then handed to the desktop compositor in windowed mode (bitblt mode). This is what pretty much all DirectX 11 games use. I said typically, because win32 apps could also use the flip presentation mode with WDDM 1.3 instead if you wanted to. Windows store apps could only use the flip presentation mode. Using flip presentation meant the app presents to the desktop compositor at all times, which then handles presenting to the screen.

With WDDM 2.0 and when using DirectX 12, win32 apps now have to use the flip presentation mode, the same restriction windows store apps had under WDDM 1.3. What was previously an option for win32 apps is now the only option.

The important distinction to make however, is that just because win32 apps and windows store apps now share the same presentation model does not mean win32 apps now have all the restrictions of windows store apps (i.e. sandboxing etc). You can still intercept and hook DirectX 12 games, get pointers to their swapchain buffers, and things like geodesato could still be made (swapchain interception might have to work slightly differently though). Just for example's sake, I was curious how the 3DMark DX12 API test works, so I hooked it's execution with nsight. And bear in mind that's an application that is designed intentionally to prevent interceptions.

That still leaves the concern that DirectX 12 games have less flexibility in how they present though, they have to go through the compositor always now? V-Sync only? No triple-buffering? How will that affect VR headsets?

The short of it is that microsoft took on those concerns during the insider preview and extended the flip model in WDDM 2.0 so that you can reproduce the presentation behaviour of the older WDDM/DXGI versions. The DirectX team actually have a youtube channel where they've posted some videos on the various presentation modes:

DirectX 12: Presentation Modes In Windows 10

DirectX 12: Unthrottled Framerate

The first video is quite long and more technical, while the second is shorter and just gives a high level explanation of how to reproduce full-screen exclusive presentation behaviour. The article in this thread is concerned that the AMD driver doesn't support unthrottled framerates, but that is on AMD's driver team and not an intentional feature of WDDM 2.0 (specifically DXGI 1.4).

TLDR:

As a consumer, the concern isn't that developers will suddenly embrace window's store apps because they now have to use the same presentation model with win32 apps too (which they could already do in WDDM 1.3 anyway). That's one tiny facet of development. They've both used XInput for a while and nobody cared about that, for example. There's no real loss of functionality either, unless the dev's choose to omit things. The only real concern is that publishers begin asking dev's to use the window's store API instead of making win32 applications. As a consumer the best way to prevent that is tell the publishers no in the only way they understand - don't buy the windows store version of anything, I know I won't be.

 

[Movalpolos]

So I should not upgrade to Windows 10?
Will that even help?

 

[mcrommert]

From a developer's perspective this article seems a bit muddled. Really they should have someone who understands the APIs that they're discussing a bit more.

Skip to the TLDR if you don't care for details.

The first thing is implications of the change from WDDM 1.3 to WDDM 2.0 that affect presenting to the screen. Under WDDM 1.3 the typical win32 app (non windows-store app) either presents directly to the screen in exclusive fullscreen mode, or presents to an intermediate surface that is then handed to the desktop compositor in windowed mode (bitblt mode). This is what pretty much all DirectX 11 games use. I said typically, because win32 apps could also use the flip presentation mode with WDDM 1.3 instead if you wanted to. Windows store apps could only use the flip presentation mode. Using flip presentation meant the app presents to the desktop compositor at all times, which then handles presenting to the screen.

With WDDM 2.0 and when using DirectX 12, win32 apps now have to use the flip presentation mode, the same restriction windows store apps had under WDDM 1.3. What was previously an option for win32 apps is now the only option.

The important distinction to make however, is that just because win32 apps and windows store apps now share the same presentation model does not mean win32 apps now have all the restrictions of windows store apps (i.e. sandboxing etc). You can still intercept and hook DirectX 12 games, get pointers to their swapchain buffers, and things like geodesato could still be made (swapchain interception might have to work slightly differently though). Just for example's sake, I was curious how the 3DMark DX12 API test works, so I hooked it's execution with nsight. And bear in mind that's an application that is designed intentionally to prevent interceptions.

That still leaves the concern that DirectX 12 games have less flexibility in how they present though, they have to go through the compositor always now? V-Sync only? No triple-buffering? How will that affect VR headsets?

The short of it is that microsoft took on those concerns during the insider preview and extended the flip model in WDDM 2.0 so that you can reproduce the presentation behaviour of the older WDDM/DXGI versions. The DirectX team actually have a youtube channel where they've posted some videos on the various presentation modes:

DirectX 12: Presentation Modes In Windows 10

DirectX 12: Unthrottled Framerate

The first video is quite long and more technical, while the second is shorter and just gives a high level explanation of how to reproduce full-screen exclusive presentation behaviour. The article in this thread is concerned that the AMD driver doesn't support unthrottled framerates, but that is on AMD's driver team and not an intentional feature of WDDM 2.0 (specifically DXGI 1.4).

TLDR:

As a consumer, the concern isn't that developers will suddenly embrace window's store apps because they now have to use the same presentation model with win32 apps too (which they could already do in WDDM 1.3 anyway). That's one tiny facet of development. They've both used XInput for a while and nobody cared about that, for example. There's no real loss of functionality either, unless the dev's choose to omit things. The only real concern is that publishers begin asking dev's to use the window's store API instead of making win32 applications. As a consumer the best way to prevent that is tell the publishers no in the only way they understand - don't buy the windows store version of anything, I know I won't be.

Thanks for the dev perspective in all this. If they can get windows fullscreen to play and act like exclusive then i have no issues. Exclusive has seriously problems on windows because moving in and out of it is so unstable

 

[LordRaptor]

The only real concern is that publishers begin asking dev's to use the window's store API instead of making win32 applications. As a consumer the best way to prevent that is tell the publishers no in the only way they understand - don't buy the windows store version of anything, I know I won't be.

I don't believe any traditional gaming publishers particularly want to endorse attempts by MS to move the PC userbase into a walled garden and I don't think its a coincidence that the only games being released as UWAs are the ones that had significant MS bankrolling during development.

 

[Dictator93]

From a developer's perspective this article seems a bit muddled. Really they should have someone who understands the APIs that they're discussing a bit more.

Skip to the TLDR if you don't care for details.

The first thing is implications of the change from WDDM 1.3 to WDDM 2.0 that affect presenting to the screen. Under WDDM 1.3 the typical win32 app (non windows-store app) either presents directly to the screen in exclusive fullscreen mode, or presents to an intermediate surface that is then handed to the desktop compositor in windowed mode (bitblt mode). This is what pretty much all DirectX 11 games use. I said typically, because win32 apps could also use the flip presentation mode with WDDM 1.3 instead if you wanted to. Windows store apps could only use the flip presentation mode. Using flip presentation meant the app presents to the desktop compositor at all times, which then handles presenting to the screen.

With WDDM 2.0 and when using DirectX 12, win32 apps now have to use the flip presentation mode, the same restriction windows store apps had under WDDM 1.3. What was previously an option for win32 apps is now the only option.

The important distinction to make however, is that just because win32 apps and windows store apps now share the same presentation model does not mean win32 apps now have all the restrictions of windows store apps (i.e. sandboxing etc). You can still intercept and hook DirectX 12 games, get pointers to their swapchain buffers, and things like geodesato could still be made (swapchain interception might have to work slightly differently though). Just for example's sake, I was curious how the 3DMark DX12 API test works, so I hooked it's execution with nsight. And bear in mind that's an application that is designed intentionally to prevent interceptions.

That still leaves the concern that DirectX 12 games have less flexibility in how they present though, they have to go through the compositor always now? V-Sync only? No triple-buffering? How will that affect VR headsets?

The short of it is that microsoft took on those concerns during the insider preview and extended the flip model in WDDM 2.0 so that you can reproduce the presentation behaviour of the older WDDM/DXGI versions. The DirectX team actually have a youtube channel where they've posted some videos on the various presentation modes:

DirectX 12: Presentation Modes In Windows 10

DirectX 12: Unthrottled Framerate

The first video is quite long and more technical, while the second is shorter and just gives a high level explanation of how to reproduce full-screen exclusive presentation behaviour. The article in this thread is concerned that the AMD driver doesn't support unthrottled framerates, but that is on AMD's driver team and not an intentional feature of WDDM 2.0 (specifically DXGI 1.4).

TLDR:

As a consumer, the concern isn't that developers will suddenly embrace window's store apps because they now have to use the same presentation model with win32 apps too (which they could already do in WDDM 1.3 anyway). That's one tiny facet of development. They've both used XInput for a while and nobody cared about that, for example. There's no real loss of functionality either, unless the dev's choose to omit things. The only real concern is that publishers begin asking dev's to use the window's store API instead of making win32 applications. As a consumer the best way to prevent that is tell the publishers no in the only way they understand - don't buy the windows store version of anything, I know I won't be.

Would you mind if I added this to the OP as some context to the original article (separate take)?

 

[Nokterian]

I already suspected this was GFWL 2.0 and there it is...get fucked microsoft you will never learn.

 

[Emitan]

Ryan of PcPer just posted his article on the "controversy" surrounding how frametimes and frame pacing are being measured under DX12 at the moment. It appears as if MS is trying to enforce limitations on user control via DX12, similar to how this works currently on the windows 10 store. For example, the ability to turn off Vsync, implement your own overlay, use Gsync or GFE, or inject any .dll is currently complex... and probably not possible in its currently planned state.

Nice to see Microsoft pushing Vulkan.

 

[RK9039]

I wasn't going to use their store anyways.

 

[dr_rus]

From a developer's perspective this article seems a bit muddled. Really they should have someone who understands the APIs that they're discussing a bit more.

Skip to the TLDR if you don't care for details.

The first thing is implications of the change from WDDM 1.3 to WDDM 2.0 that affect presenting to the screen. Under WDDM 1.3 the typical win32 app (non windows-store app) either presents directly to the screen in exclusive fullscreen mode, or presents to an intermediate surface that is then handed to the desktop compositor in windowed mode (bitblt mode). This is what pretty much all DirectX 11 games use. I said typically, because win32 apps could also use the flip presentation mode with WDDM 1.3 instead if you wanted to. Windows store apps could only use the flip presentation mode. Using flip presentation meant the app presents to the desktop compositor at all times, which then handles presenting to the screen.

With WDDM 2.0 and when using DirectX 12, win32 apps now have to use the flip presentation mode, the same restriction windows store apps had under WDDM 1.3. What was previously an option for win32 apps is now the only option.

The important distinction to make however, is that just because win32 apps and windows store apps now share the same presentation model does not mean win32 apps now have all the restrictions of windows store apps (i.e. sandboxing etc). You can still intercept and hook DirectX 12 games, get pointers to their swapchain buffers, and things like geodesato could still be made (swapchain interception might have to work slightly differently though). Just for example's sake, I was curious how the 3DMark DX12 API test works, so I hooked it's execution with nsight. And bear in mind that's an application that is designed intentionally to prevent interceptions.

That still leaves the concern that DirectX 12 games have less flexibility in how they present though, they have to go through the compositor always now? V-Sync only? No triple-buffering? How will that affect VR headsets?

The short of it is that microsoft took on those concerns during the insider preview and extended the flip model in WDDM 2.0 so that you can reproduce the presentation behaviour of the older WDDM/DXGI versions. The DirectX team actually have a youtube channel where they've posted some videos on the various presentation modes:

DirectX 12: Presentation Modes In Windows 10

DirectX 12: Unthrottled Framerate

The first video is quite long and more technical, while the second is shorter and just gives a high level explanation of how to reproduce full-screen exclusive presentation behaviour. The article in this thread is concerned that the AMD driver doesn't support unthrottled framerates, but that is on AMD's driver team and not an intentional feature of WDDM 2.0 (specifically DXGI 1.4).

TLDR:

As a consumer, the concern isn't that developers will suddenly embrace window's store apps because they now have to use the same presentation model with win32 apps too (which they could already do in WDDM 1.3 anyway). That's one tiny facet of development. They've both used XInput for a while and nobody cared about that, for example. There's no real loss of functionality either, unless the dev's choose to omit things. The only real concern is that publishers begin asking dev's to use the window's store API instead of making win32 applications. As a consumer the best way to prevent that is tell the publishers no in the only way they understand - don't buy the windows store version of anything, I know I won't be.

Thanks for that explanation but when you say that there is no loss of functionality - this isn't actually true as so far FreeSync and DSR/VSR can't work with borderless window presentation in DWM. Or am I mistaken?

 

[Insane Metal]

And the news keep getting worse. Smh

 

[Mit-]

I was scared for Steam this morning (if given the choice for which version of CoD to buy, why wouldn't one choose the Windows Store version that has the Xbox playerbase attached?), but I am no longer scared, because this will literally be Xbox on your PC, with none of the benefits and flexibility PC gamers have come to expect. I don't see this hurting Steam much.

I still don't think this is BAD news for Xbox gamers, however. They should enjoy more freedom in hardware and a larger playerbase. Or the whole thing dies and Steam and Sony are the only survivors.

 

[Gormenghast]

From Windows 8, to Xbox One, to Windows 10 absurd privacy settings, to the closed platform, Microsoft is paving the road for its own demise by turning into one incredibly stupid and consumer-hating tyrant.

Right now Microsoft thinks of being too big and embedded in the PC world to "fail", but the overall situation and context is very similar to the demise of IBM in the 80s.

We are just waiting for some enlightened tech genius who's able to make some "compatible" at same or better performance. At that point Microsoft will disintegrate.

 

[Crayon]

From Windows 8, to Xbox One, to Windows 10 absurd privacy settings, to the closed platform, Microsoft is paving the road for its own demise by turning one incredibly stupid tyrant.

Right now Microsoft thinks of being too big and embedded in the PC world to "fail", but the overall situation and context is very similar to the demise of IBM in the 80s.

We are just waiting for some enlightened tech genius who's able to make some "compatible" at same or better performance. At that point Microsoft will disintegrate.

I have a fantasy of a future where microsoft is just the company that makes those great keyboards.

 

[tuxfool]

Thanks for that explanation but when you say that there is no loss of functionality - this isn't actually true as so far FreeSync and DSR/VSR can't work with borderless window presentation in DWM. Or am I mistaken?

Don't know about FreeSync but DSR/VSR work if you change your desktop resolution. It is a pain in the ass but that is the way with borderless.

 

[Horp]

Yeah so it's kinda obvious we can't trust MS with handling the PC platform going forward. Gaben was right. We need an open platform for PC.

 

[Gormenghast]

Also, this rumor that they'll release more powerful Xbox and more frequent upgrades like a PC can potentially disrupt the whole industry, and in a very negative way.

If they do that bad move they'll force Sony to get down that road too, and it would mean hardware requirements skyrocket even more than they are already, more risks, more losses and even less games being made.

 

[shandy706]

This is what I expected to happen since Microsoft said they will take PC gaming seriously. Every time they took it seriously, they tried to lock it down. Here we're seeing it happen again. Hopefully the industry will be wiser to these tactics this time and not play by their standards, but they have the money to back it up, so who knows.

Goddammit.

LOL

Patience people. They should/have to listen like they did with the X1.

Hopefully they'll have a suggestions/changes page setup for this too.

Not everything works right out of the gate.

 

[dr_rus]

Don't know about FreeSync but DSR/VSR work if you change your desktop resolution. It is a pain in the ass but that is the way with borderless.

If I have to change the desktop resolution first then it's not working from my perspective.

 

[Baron_Calamity]

No customized controls is a huge deal breaker for me and many other disable people.

 

[Gormenghast]

Yeah so it's kinda obvious we can't trust MS with handling the PC platform going forward. Gaben was right. We need an open platform for PC.

That's why I compared it to IBM in the 80s. They emulated the BIOS and made compatible hardware just when IBM was making strides to close the platform. Their following attempt with PS/2 was a way to make the PC proprietary again, and it took some synergy between different companies to counter IBM move:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extended_Industry_Standard_Architecture

The "Gang of Nine".

It will take a similar effort to take down Microsoft and avoid the PC platform to be driven to the ground.

The PS/2 line was created by IBM in an attempt to recapture control of the PC market by introducing an advanced yet proprietary architecture. IBM's considerable market presence plus the reliability of the PS/2 ensured that the systems would sell in relatively large numbers, especially to large businesses. However the other major manufacturers balked at IBM's licensing terms to develop and sell compatible hardware, particularly as the demanded royalties were on a per machine basis.

The two companies had significant differences in culture and vision. Microsoft favored the open hardware system approach that contributed to its success on the PC; IBM sought to use OS/2 to drive sales of its own hardware, including systems that could not support the features Microsoft wanted. Microsoft programmers also became frustrated with IBM's bureaucracy and its use of lines of code to measure programmer productivity.IBM developers complained about the terseness and lack of comments in Microsoft's code, while Microsoft developers complained that IBM's code was bloated.

Essentially we need a company to do what Microsoft did to IBM back then. Because today's Microsoft is EXACTLY how IBM was at the time. It's a cycle that repeats. The savior becomes tyrant and there's need for a new savior to take down the current tyrant.

Corporations ALWAYS go through this cycle, in the beginning they propel things onward and produce progress, then they grow too large, lose purpose beside their own greed and egoism, become toxic, and need to be taken down before they generate too much damage.

 

[Gamesadict]

Devs, please use Vulkan and keep selling your games on Steam/GoG/Origin/uPlay. Thanks.

 

[Tain]

Maybe it's time to stop being so hostile to people who are don't take personal computers for granted. There's too many gamers who hand wave this stuff off because it's convenient for their hobby.

I guess I'm misunderstanding your post, but not being too concerned about what MS does with its app store isn't the same thing as being hostile toward Linux users.

 

[Phyla]

Devs, please use Vulkan and keep selling your games on Steam/GoG/Origin/uPlay. Thanks.

Agreed

 

[Hellsing321]

Jesus Christ, Microsoft. How can you fuck up so badly?

 

[cripterion]

Wow Microsoft, it's not enough you fuck up your last console you wanna mess with pc gaming too. Seriously if that's what DX12 entails, keep that shit off my pc. Who the fuck over there thought it was a good idea to not give people the standard options they've been accustomed to for so long?
Fuck, and to think so far I liked Windows 10 as an OS.

 

[Pathfinder]

Wow Microsoft, it's not enough you fuck up your last console you wanna mess with pc gaming too. Seriously if that's what DX12 entails, keep that shit off my pc. Who the fuck over there thought it was a good idea to not give people the standard options they've been accustomed to for so long?
Fuck, and to think so far I liked Windows 10 as an OS.

I never understood why some people can't formulate a cohesive argument without tons of profanity.

 

[AngerdX]

Nope just nope, Vulcan needs to seriously take off so i can move to linux or something MS is going to far with all the removal of control. :/

 

[StereoVsn]

I never understood why some people can't formulate a cohesive argument without tons of profanity.

In this case it should be allowed. If Microsoft can't form a cohesive argument to their own shenanigans on Win10 store and DirectX, why should anyone else?

 

[OrlanisWorks]

LOL

Patience people. They should/have to listen like they did with the X1.

Hopefully they'll have a suggestions/changes page setup for this too.

Not everything works right out of the gate.

Accepting things not working out of the gate seems to be all too common. Things should work when they're launched and that shouldn't simply be brushed off because of how more common its become. That's not to say we should try to destroy a creator for a flawed creation, but Microsoft is especially slow with good responses to these concerns. They better be working to answer these criticisms with action, but PR speak.

 

[cripterion]

I never understood why some people can't formulate a cohesive argument without tons of profanity.

What else is there to say? They keep singing the same tune but always end fucking up.
I was interested in both Gears and Quantum Break but they can keep their games if they are released in such a sad state.

Sorry that my profanity offends you more than MS inability to please gamers.

 

[Relaxed Muscle]

Vulkan, saves us!