Pathfinder
Member
Profanity doesn't offend me. It's just hard for me to take someone's opinion seriously who swears a whole lot. There are more constructive ways to get your point across.
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Microsoft's Windows Store games to limit standard PC user control options (PcPer)
- Thread starter Dictator93
- Start date
Profanity doesn't offend me. It's just hard for me to take someone's opinion seriously who swears a whole lot. There are more constructive ways to get your point across.
lmimmfn
Member
+1Read the article, and as far as buying games on the Windows 10 Store is concerned for me
They had GFWL and Xbox One debacles to learn from.
They know what people expect of them, they just don't care and think eventually "they will bend to our will"
LordRaptor
Member
But... I mean, the stores been there since Win10 previews, they must have known the issues with using 'real games' on the UWA platform at least since ROTR even if they were oblivious before, and nobody expected QB on PC more than 2 weeks ago, or that Gears would be released today out of nowhere.
It's not like there was any customer pressure on MS here. If this feels really rushed for some reason - and frankly, I agree it does feel really rushed - its not because anyone outside of MS have been rushing it.
Releasing a rushed and ostensibly broken product to meet a deadline nobody knew about in the first place doesn't inspire confidence in me, and I don't believe I am alone.
There is actually a ton of speculation in there. He said, she said, maybe this, probably this, AMD may have goofed, Intel and Nvidia may not have implemented as MS wanted. Nothing concrete in any of this.
Lol at the people thinking shit like this is essentially the "end of PC gaming". You have to support things like this first before that's the case. I really don't see anything like this ever taking off (outside of MS exclusive titles). Look at the MASSIVE shit storm over paid mods for Skyrim. This is on a whole other level of fuckery that PC gamers will not support.
Good luck to the devs who want their games to be W10 Store exclusive. You're going to need it. (Again, not talking about MS exclusive titles. They will still most likely sell regardless. You know, AAA marketing and all that jazz.)
Good luck to the devs who want their games to be W10 Store exclusive. You're going to need it. (Again, not talking about MS exclusive titles. They will still most likely sell regardless. You know, AAA marketing and all that jazz.)
Why has pathfinder been banned ? Caught shilling for MS perhaps.
jabberwocker
Banned
If you want console games on pc you have some console limits. I dont understand some of the problems here. You cant have kb vs controllers for halo6. The non ms store games are fair play.
Unfortunately they lost many people's confidence from all their failed attempts at "supporting" their own Windows platform. People are pretty fed up with their empty promises. Of course what did they go out and do to regain support? Release half-baked software far too early, break many of the existing tools used for PC games and create an environment whose primary purpose seems to be to promote their store.
They needed to have an outstanding first impression that showed they were listening. Instead they plowed head first trying to institute what they wanted before considering the market's expectations.
cripterion
Member
Fair enough
sure you're welcome to, though you might want to cut it down to size a little. Perhaps use the TLDR and link to the full post?
I'm not a driver developer so I can't speak to that entirely. Since with DirectX12 and DXGI 1.4 the swapchain backbuffers technically belong to the desktop compositor now (afaik), instead of to the application like they did in older versions, that could be the obstacle. Honestly I'm not sure how a driver would get around that, it'd require the driver downscaling the backbuffer for the compositor, yet still permit the compositor to offer the oversize backbuffer to the application for rendering. Really it would be simpler for DX12 drivers to do what the current crop of DX11 injectors do to add postFX and downsampling - intercepting the API calls at the application level rather than the driver level, creating a high-res intermediate buffer that the application thinks is the swapchain backbuffer, and downsampling that into the actual swapchain backbuffer that the compositor owns.
G-sync and freesync I'm even more ignorant about. I'd imagine the problem is that currently the app presents to the compositor at one rate, and the compositor then presents to the screen at a fixed rate (60hz). The fullscreen exclusive solution is that while the application is the only client of the compositor, the compositor will present to the screen at the same rate as the application (I think). I would imagine a windowed solution to the same problem is the same one - allow/force one client of the compositor to override the compositor's screen present rate even when the compositor has multiple client apps.
Like I said i'm not a driver guy, so take all that with a pinch of salt. My understanding from the app side of things is that the driver teams are still ensuring their drivers meet the API specs (as the AMD driver thing illustrates), before they then start trying to break from the specs too much.
I'm not a huge MS fanboy or whatever you want to call it (I prefer the ps4 to xb1), and I think the MS store is highly undesirable for consumers. However I'm failing to see why people are so outraged, and I'd argue with the article's assertion that moving DX12 win32 apps presentation mode to the newer one used by store apps is a calculated push by microsoft to get games on their store. Is it that surprising that the new graphics API uses the somewhat new presentation API? It is after all more efficient than the old one (no intermediate surfaces), which is what the whole DirectX 12 thing is about, efficiency. I'm not arguing that it's ideal, by any means, only that this change may have other explanations.
So only Microsoft makes console games? Once they go to another store, they instantly turn into something else? None of the games so far have any mouse/controller restrictions that you're mentioning anyways.
He went at it with Bernardo in the Windows Store OT.
He seemed alarmingly defensive in regards to anything Microsoft related.
Wut. No, we do not need to have some "console limits". Why would that really need to be the case?
And as far as saying you can't have kb/m people playing with controller people (assuming the game would even have crossplay), you can always have separate servers for kb/m only, controller only, or both.
Something something bullshit posting.
lmimmfn
Member
Wouldn't that be sweet? ....finally
Crayon
Member
Fat chance, guys. Most gamers will roll over and spread cheeks for this.
lmimmfn
Member
We can live in hope, not the cheeks part lol
dr_rus
Member
While this may be the reason right now I'm not really expecting them to break anything. Most of driver level overrides in DX9/11 are extensions, not breaking of the standard. If the API specs will specifically limit some things so much that there won't be any way to extend them - the vendors won't bother and will just wait for MS to relax the restrictions in some DX12.1.
Well, it's obvious - people are getting less for the same price and they feel robbed. It doesn't really matter if the removal of exclusive fullscreen makes the API more efficient because this particular feature wasn't the source of DX11's inefficiency. If it was the feature which enabled DSR/Freesync to exist then I think that most of us gamers could've lived with some inefficiency left in DX12 if that would mean that these features would still work.
StereoVsn
Member
No, no, you don't understand. Tales of Zesteria (PS3/PS4 port) enforced vsync, denied non-Xbone controllers and you couldn't mod it or run overlays with it. Oh... wait... no, console ports allow all kinds of things on PC.
StereoVsn
Member
Not necessarily. There is no large inherent advantage of purchasing games through Win10 store. As long as other devs provide games through Steam, GoG, Origin, etc.. we'll be ok. The DirectX 12 crap is more concerning but its likely that most developers will support DirectX11 for a long time and there is always hope around Vulcan.
Crayon
Member
While we can count on microsoft's incompetence to save us, it would be nice if the gaming community could show a whiff of consumer responsibility here and there. The rejection of the xbox one would almost count but that was gamers acting out of pure self interest and only incidentally saving themselves.
StereoVsn
Member
Oh, I agree and I believe we will see a portion of PC community reject Win10 store. I hope its going to be a significant portion, but really if MS waves discount cookie in front of the crowd, people will go for it.
Crayon
Member
Oh, I agree and I believe we will see a portion of PC community reject Win10 store. I hope its going to be a significant portion, but really if MS waves discount cookie in front of the crowd, people will go for it.
A huge, dry, cock-shaped discount cookie.
CrispyBoar
Banned
I very much doubt so if Sony's smart.
Ninja Sharingan
Banned
I'm with you.
wapplew
Member
Like they forced Sony to make DRM console right?
MS is pushing, via DX12 and the Windows app store, to have apps basically behave as though they're running in borderless window mode (probably to allow stuff like, say, smooth window transitions between applications). This is basically forcing v-sync to be enabled (instead of leaving it as an option, as it has always been), which is pretty shitty.
I seems Microsoft wants a closed shop, by removing what makes PC gaming unique and special. I wont be getting Win10 till I get a new rig later this year (pc did not like upgrade),
It will intresting to see how stuff develops, far play to Microsoft for putting more game on to PC, I not bothered with different clients, the pricing structure is my major concern which then charging sky high prices, rather than hunting around for cheaper games. As prices are slowly creeping up.
I just think if VR hits off, consoles will struggle for power and stuff, or it will go the way of phones (contract based) as people moan of paying £300/$400 for a consoles, but drop much more of that on a smart phone every two years. They will release a PC Box/VR Box with default settings and gameplay to suit both markets. They need to establish a base setting Win10 & DX12 (why do a free update).
It will intresting to see how stuff develops, far play to Microsoft for putting more game on to PC, I not bothered with different clients, the pricing structure is my major concern which then charging sky high prices, rather than hunting around for cheaper games. As prices are slowly creeping up.
I just think if VR hits off, consoles will struggle for power and stuff, or it will go the way of phones (contract based) as people moan of paying £300/$400 for a consoles, but drop much more of that on a smart phone every two years. They will release a PC Box/VR Box with default settings and gameplay to suit both markets. They need to establish a base setting Win10 & DX12 (why do a free update).
Delusibeta
Banned
... Huh, Gabe Newell seems to have called it. Admittedly, an OS generation late, but this new Microsoft PC gaming initiative is looking a lot like what he predicted what would happen back when Windows 8 was new.
We're our own worst enemies. We always want Microsoft to pay attention to PC and then they do and it's awful
SerTapTap
Member
Seems like it's just Windows Store crap though, right? As long as DX12 itself is unaffected, and more importantly arbitrary apps on Windows aren't, and it's just Store stuff that is affected...it's mostly just games that wouldn't have been on PC last gen anyway. I'm disappointed this is how they do it, but I'm not sure it's a net negative either.
Well, we know that for a fact for the UWP. We don't know if they are forcing it on non UWP code, all we know is AMD drivers are making all of their stuff process that way as well while Intel and Nvidia drivers do not. Are Intel and Nvidia going to update their drivers to behave like AMDs currently are, or did AMD goof and will update their drivers to behave like they always have.
R_thanatos
Member
Not only microsoft will try to destroy it and they most certainly will with their incentive of making things worse for everyone not using their products.
it's like a very bad case of internet explorer 7.0
Crayon
Member
Yeah that's what happens.
Trying to evangelize from a perspective of long term self interest or responsibility is squashed when ms astroturfers start echo chambers with self defeating non-arguments such as:
"Can you tell me what benefit I get by switching open alternative x?"
"Every company Too. It's just business."
"Oh M$ Tinfoil Hat something something."
"I use both and ms is the one that Just Works Every Time."
"Been reading stuff like this since the 90s. There always seems to be a precipice of the utmost importance."
Personal Computing is at a precipice and sadly we cannot hold the slightest hope of consumers understanding what's at stake or making any sacrifice to save themselves. The only chance would be a gang of larger companies who can come together in an act of self preservation and dislodge some portion of the pc market to start anew.
Been reading stuff like this since the 90s. There always seems to be a precipice of the utmost importance.
LordRaptor
Member
I think the way Windows 8 was presented to the world, and its fairly embarassing reversal of the touchscreen first paradigm with 8.1 and follow up free upgrades to 10 shows that MS themselves consider this the first real threat to their monopoly, well, pretty much ever.
What is "this" in that statement? Also, my previous post was not just regarding MS.
LordRaptor
Member
Current adoption and usage trends of phones and tablets over traditional personal computers.
Oh wow, Microsoft is fucking up their pathetic attempt at PC support? You don't say. This is a completely surprising and new sort of development. At least we can be sure they'll actually fix the problems and not just abandon it altogether leaving games effectively unplayable...again.
Absolutely. It's also why they are pivoting to a software services company. It is no longer Windows first, Windows best when it comes to their software development and releases. As one can see from the way iOS and Android have recently been getting MS developed software before (or even only) before Windows Mobile.
Crayon
Member
Microsoft's reaction after spectacular failure in the phone market is to turn pcs into phones. It's insane and desperate.
LordRaptor
Member
I fully agree.
I said in another thread, the response of trying to make their popular product (Windows) more like their unpopular product (Windows Phone) is almost baffling.
If they did the reverse - and just made a phone with understandable min spec requirements that runs standard win32 executables, they might actually have a market niche to appeal to.
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