Owlowiscious
Member
You can ask a mod to unlock the thread so you can edit it.
I apologize if you feel singled out by my example. I picked you somewhat randomly and used the last page of your post history.
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#Miiquality | Bringing same-sex relationships to Nintendo's Tomodachi series
- Thread starter Tyeforce
- Start date
I apologize if you feel singled out by my example. I picked you somewhat randomly and used the last page of your post history.
So do you suggest having alternate "Tomodachi: Red State" and "Tomodachi: Blue State" versions?
Who is actually suggesting this? Why are you using this thread as an opportunity to make puerile jokes?
cosmicblizzard
Banned
Not a fan of Nintendo's response, but I don't think Tye was encouraging those malicious headlines and articles before the response came out. He still wants people to buy the game.
Waylon Drums
Member
No, I suggest including everyone and allowing those who are against gay equality to play the game without gay people. Simple enough solution that would have left everyone happy.
Owlowiscious
Member
I believe it's not that simple to program this into the current game that was released a year ago.
I can't find any other posts of yours in this thread, so I'm not sure what your point with this is. Anyone want to fill me in?
People should buy the game if they wish to but I won't blame any person in the LGBTQ community/allies who skip it. Non-responses and unearned neutrality are tacit approvals of the status quo.
I've been waiting to see someone spell this out. Well put.
In a more general sense, can I just point out the self-defeating nature of specifically using shame as a tool for social change when the contention for many with their treatment by society at large is because of shaming? Shaming tends suggest tone and expectation that ignores the sensibilities of the subject. Communicating shortcomings or oversight in people's/company's behavior is different than what I see described as "shaming" by people in situations like this.
Waylon Drums
Member
I believe that that should have been thought about during the decision-making process and I also believe that in the year since its initial release, Nintendo has had plenty of time to figure it out. They didn't and now they can deal with the consequences of that decision.
Aaronrules380
Member
I feel like people are blowing this way out of proportion. And to those who say it isn't a political issue or social commentary: It is in the world we live in. It shouldn't be, but that doesn't change the reality of the situation. And they can't say they'll put it in because guess what: Nintendo of America has no power to do that. At best they can contact the Japanese side of things and try to tell them that this is an issue over here. I'm not saying this isn't a battle worth fighting, I just think people have been overblowing the situation and putting the blame on the wrong people. The best way to ensure it's in is to make your voices heard and make it clear that you would buy the game if this wasn't the issue. If the game tanks in NA, it's foolish to assume they'll change it in the next game. More likely they'll just stop localizing the series. Getting the word out and making sure Nintendo understands there is a demand is what's important. And they do understand. It's just the people who understand right now aren't people in a position to change it themselves. And Nintendo is a business and ultimately their goal is to make as much profit as possible. Social responsibility comes after that. I get that that sucks, but that's reality. And honestly, not having it in the game isn't really an anti gay message. It sucks for gay people, but for someone who isn't gay they probably won't even think about it unless someone else brought it up to them. It won't make kids start hating gays or being any more anti gay than they already are. It doesn't help, but it doesn't hurt either
Owlowiscious
Member
Game was released a year ago by a foreign company. People are asking for a change to current game, with the actual intention of possibly effecting future releases.
The post I referred to was made a year ago and locked by a mod. I asked for a change to that post, with the hope that it effects his future posts.
I have no post history here because I don't want to send the wrong message. I suppost the intention of this, but I think this kind of protest (is that the right word) will hinder the current game and probably stop the release of future games. But I could be wrong so I don't want to mess up this whole thing. But now with the news articles focusing on the wrong thing, I'm concerned for the current game and decided to say something. Also, I mainly care about the feature of this being a very very very limited vocaloid program. I just want to make custom lyrics to songs and make music videos. So I had no say in this relationship issue. But if this relationship issue effects me having my vocaloid game, I end up making silly posts like this.
How will progress ever occur if people just sit back and go oh well gay marriage isn't legal so why should we demand representation in games. If enough people realize being gay is a normal thing, through games, books, novels etc. It would go a long way in having equal rights for homosexuals.
Also this isn't the bleeding edge of social progress, a homosexual option has already been in many sim games.
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
I will say that is not malicius but a pretty unfurtunate and insensible way to respond the issue.
I don't think that having same sex pairing stuff will make something some sort of socio/political commentary. I can see people believing that but also people taking offense of that reasoning.
Understand that, but you should also see why people will find troubling that Nintendo is thinking like that in a game about "quirky and cute fantasy world".
Understand that is bussiness and to avoid controversy, but not the best words to deflect the issue.
QuantumBro
Banned
It is really poor wording on their part. They should have just said that due to the nature of development they could not add same sex relationships into this game, but will look into including it into any future products.
Mordacious
Banned
I support Nintendo's right to remain neutral. Does every private company need to cave in to political pressure? Would you support someone lobbying that game characters should engage in "a moment of prayer" before engaging on a quest because otherwise it would not be inclusive or representative of the majority of the world's population which still engages in some sort of prayer to some deity? Not making any judgment calls but the right to remain neutral should be a basic freedom all over the world. Nintendo is simply being Switzerland. Look how many wars and destruction that has spared Switzerland.
gaheris
Member
Non-responses are the status quo because companies don't want the drama from either side of the issue. So support for one side or the other is gonna bite them no matter what they do, that's why they keep it neutral. It's sad but its the world we live in (for now).
Yep. If it did cross their minds and they just shrugged their shoulders on it, well, that would be just sad. Merely speculation of course, though shoulder-shrugging was pretty much their response on the conflict mineral/human rights issue.
its called value proposition, if enough of a stink is made about gay marriages where it would be more beneficial to give the option than not then they will if they are a smart business.
You should finish yours, so please don't try to condescend. Do you know how hard it was to find a black cabbage patch doll? And one that was my skin tone was right out. Hell, besides Princess and the Frog, how many main characters in Disney movies are black? How many black shows on television don't show blacks in some form of social servitude? BET is the worst about this. Why does Luther only like light skinned women?
You know what I don't do? I don't get mad at the creators. I find what was made for me. And then I go to those that I know and educate them on why certain things are not ok in my eyes. But I never tell them not to do something, I just try and make sure they have a make fully informed decision. I'm doing what I can in my community, like fighting Berkeley School district as they redraw the district lines every year to get the higher paid communities. Or pushing for homeless reform in Berkeley and Oakland, specifically for teens.
But you know won't help me? Not being tolerant of others from their views, and trying to work with them for the betterment of all. This either or crap has got to go. You are pushing even people who want to help away.
Aaronrules380
Member
It shouldn't but it will. We've already seen that its presence (or rather lack thereof) has been turned into a social political issue. Why would it's inclusion be any different? People keep arguing based on a bunch of high ideals that unfortunately don't really exist in the real world. Idealism isn't bad, but it's pointless if you ignore the realities of the current situation. If you really want change you need to look at what the situation is, why it is as it is, and how you can best alter it. Whining endlessly when things aren't ideal changes nothing. Honestly, buying the game and letting Nintendo know there's interest over here is probably way more likely to help change come down the line than boycotting the game. Because I've heard nothing to suggest this is as big an issue in Japan right now, and if they stop localizing these games our voices won't matter anyways
Nintendo or anyone else shouldn't worry about what the "other" side of this issue has to say because we shouldn't have to pretend that bigots are worth listening to. Anyone against same-sex relationships/marriage in 2014 should take a long look in the mirror.
Waylon Drums
Member
That's the thing: we can look at this two ways and neither is a good look for Nintendo. They either live in such a well-insulated bubble that the thought that a gay person might be interested in the game never occurred to them; or they realized it might be an issue and said "screw it" and went ahead anyway.
Haunted
Member
Never thought I'd see a company asked about their social responsibility brush it off with "lol it's just a videogame".
Terribly naive and really indicative of how behind the times Nintendo are in this regard (though indicative of Japanese society as a whole, they don't really like to talk about these things, they'd rather ignore them. I'm sure Nintendo would rather not comment on this or make this a topic at all as well.
But that's not how things work in 2014.
Waylon Drums
Member
If you want to help, help. If you want to demand that people who are affected by this act specifically in the way you'd like them to, kindly piss off and let us help ourselves.
Aaronrules380
Member
That's a nice idealistic view that unfortunately doesn't work when you are a company trying to make a profit. It isn't a companies job to make social change, no matter the position they're in to do so. And there are still a shit ton of people who either don't like gays, or are ok with it but don't want to expose their kids to them for some reason. It's dumb, but that's life.
Aaronrules380
Member
Do you think they should lie and say they'll make sure it's in the next game even though the people answering right now have literally zero power in that regard?
QuantumBro
Banned
They have to since they're a company that needs money to continue to exist and some of their customers are bigots or children of bigots. Given their current financial state, they just want to avoid any sort of bad press.
You know that social responsibility at the corporate level is only growing right? And that includes support of the LGBTQ community? That includes allowing outside audits of supply chains to curb the trade of conflict minerals? Social awareness is growing and I'd prefer to be on the right side from the start and the smart companies/employers are doing the same thing. Supporting equality is the right thing socially and fiscally. Look up the advantages of CSR sometime.
By the way, "That's life" "That's how it is" "That's how the world works" and all that derivative hand-waving bullshit are flimsy deflections that show your immaturity on this issue.
How's that working out for them?
Freezie KO
Banned
This isn't a neutral position though. Neutrality would be excluding any and all references to marriage. Much like excluding any and all religious symbolism or prayers.
But if they're going to have marriage in a game where you play as your own avatar, then excluding homosexual relationships is an active choice.
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
Never said I will boycott the game, just saying that their answer kind of sucked ass. And I find troubling that you reasoning that people should shut up and buy the game hoping that the a notoriously conservative Japanase corp change it minds about a issue they coud care be less aware about it.
Haunted
Member
If they can't get NCL to change their mind, they'll have to take the bullet for the backwards nature of NCL (like they're doing right now).
But the only way to hope for some improvement in the matter and company policy is to keep up the pressure on those we can influence (NoA/NoE), in hopes that they, in turn, will influence NCL.
I'll once again reiterate that I don't think these sorts of issues are born out of any maliciousness on the part of Japanese developers, but simply naivete and ignorance. Which, of course, doesn't make this ok. It's up to those who are not happy with the status quo to make others aware of that and work together to improve things for everyone in the future.
If by specific, you mean don't be irrational, then yes. There are other ways to go about things. Demanding someone to change something, especially at the last minute, will only result in piss poor results either short or long term. Nintendo might be looking at this, not as a learning tool on how to be in 'good graces,' but to never bring the game over again. Nintendo of all companies should at least be given some benefit of the doubt.
So what you're saying is that they shouldn't have released it then. If anything they probably figured the cost of 'patching' was going to be offset by the fact that it's a small niche game, and they were worried it would sell at all. So I agree, Nintendo should've kept this series in Japan.
This has absolutely nothing to do with representation? It's a marriage option that wasn't included in the Japanese version because it's not legal there. The game is a translated port with no alterations.
This is my expectation as well. It's a niche product that's now attracting negative attention.
You say this as if Sony, Microsoft, EA, Apple, Google, and many others don't show their support for the LGBT community.
Why? Because they make games you like? Give me a break.
Aaronrules380
Member
I get that. But that also depends on what a companies target demographics are. It's a much trickier issue having explicit support of gay stuff in a kid's game than supporting gay rights on other levels like equal hiring policy or sponsoring events or stuff like that. You can say it's better fiscally, but what data do you have in that regards for a company like Nintendo with it's specific demographics? I'm not saying we should just accept things because that's the way it is. I'm saying to change things you need to accept the reality of the current situation and take that into account when looking how to change it. Making noise is all well and good and it can be useful at times. But right now this issue doesn't have the type of public attention to do anything. Boycotting the game right now is more likely to cause any further localizations to stop then it is to get it in the next game. It isn't about accepting the way things are, it's about understanding that you need to consider the way things are in order to change anything. Just expecting things to change because you think they should won't accomplish anything
Owlowiscious
Member
I think the part you bolded said to speak up while buying the game and not shut up and buy the game. These kinds of games don't get localized often so I think it's a good step to support it so that future games are localized. And if they know future games have a good chance of being localized, they might put more concern over international affairs, such as LGBTQ support in games.
Please point to the products that are 'supporting' the LGBT community or any community for that matter. There is a difference between saying we are cool with you buying this, even Tommy Hilfiger couldn't do that, and here is something that shows you in a positive light, that was made with you in mind as a person not as a checklist.
No, because they've had Birdo since SMB2, and they are all about inclusion. They are promoting their female cast much more than ever before. And Nintendo has the largest section of female users out of the big three. I'm sure they are very aware of the types of people they reach, since they are a toy company.
Aaronrules380
Member
They are also in a different position than Nintendo. It's one thing to put a token gay relationship in something like Mass effect or whatever. It's another to put gay relationships in games aimed at kids. I agree that this is dumb, but it's also the situation right now. Rather than attacking the effect of the situation, it's more helpful to go for the cause. Most support for the gay community doesn't come from and isn't expected to come from the content companies are providing in the first place.
AdmiralMikey
Member
Nintendo's really in a no-win situation here. I'm sure they didn't even consider the possibility of same-sex relationships when developing the game in Japan. Whether or not you consider that negligent is up to you, I just think it shows the need for more diversity in the gaming workplace.
So Nintendo get stuck either looking negligent by ignoring the want for same-sex relationships, or risk the (ill-informed) media outcry about a game for children that promotes same-sex marriage.
When it comes to what's best for business, I think Nintendo went with the right move of staying the course and keeping the game the same. It's clearly not be the most considerate decision, but there's less of a minefield in ignoring a problem then there is in creating potential all-new ones. If you feel the game isn't in tune with your lifestyle, I'm sorry but this game might not be for you. Let's hope something comes down the line that is.
So Nintendo get stuck either looking negligent by ignoring the want for same-sex relationships, or risk the (ill-informed) media outcry about a game for children that promotes same-sex marriage.
When it comes to what's best for business, I think Nintendo went with the right move of staying the course and keeping the game the same. It's clearly not be the most considerate decision, but there's less of a minefield in ignoring a problem then there is in creating potential all-new ones. If you feel the game isn't in tune with your lifestyle, I'm sorry but this game might not be for you. Let's hope something comes down the line that is.
Corporate social responsibility is a thing.
It's kind of sad to see people defend the status quo and defend companies doing nothing. We ask more of game developers all the time -- 60 fps, better writing, deeper gameplay -- yet somehow asking for a customization feature to better represent the population is too much.
And the whole "but what about the bigots" argument feels so out of touch. There are plenty of gay characters in other media. Did Fox burn because its TV show Glee featured a gay main character? Did Disney burn because its TV show Good Luck Charlie introduced a lesbian couple? No, it's 2014 already.
It's kind of sad to see people defend the status quo and defend companies doing nothing. We ask more of game developers all the time -- 60 fps, better writing, deeper gameplay -- yet somehow asking for a customization feature to better represent the population is too much.
And the whole "but what about the bigots" argument feels so out of touch. There are plenty of gay characters in other media. Did Fox burn because its TV show Glee featured a gay main character? Did Disney burn because its TV show Good Luck Charlie introduced a lesbian couple? No, it's 2014 already.
Holding progress of social responsibility hostage with the ransom being the sales of a video game is pretty gross situation you're positing there.
Aaronrules380
Member
Exactly. Not buying the game at this stage makes it less likely that any change will occur in future games because once the series has proven to be a failure in NA, they'll just stop localizing them and any complaints from us will become irrelevant to Nintendo since we aren't getting the game. It isn't about not speaking up, it's about how you speak up and what else you do
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
blizzardjesus
Banned
The only thing that can come out of this, is the game getting canceled. Because there is no way Nintendo is gonna change the game to cater to such a small minority of people. This is not a multi-million seller game... It is not The Sims, it is a niche within a niche, that will be (unfortunately) forgotten about in a years time.
Either way the game comes out in a month so it's probably(totally) too late to implement a change like the one people here want. You should have created this bandwagon 3-4 months ago(if not longer).
Either way the game comes out in a month so it's probably(totally) too late to implement a change like the one people here want. You should have created this bandwagon 3-4 months ago(if not longer).
Owlowiscious
Member
I was unaware that 60fps was not legal in Japan.
I think its pretty lame to try and guilt trip somebody into buying a game they're unhappy with because its "niche".
People should feel free to have their own deal breakers.
Simon Belmont
Banned
So some other company who is less tone deaf to the Western market comes in and eats their lunch. That's how business works.