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Mirror's Edge: Catalyst - new previews/videos - Closed Beta begins April 22-26th

Not Spaceghost

Spaceghost
Jan 16, 2009
12,258
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Wow, they screwed it up.

Locking basic moves behind a progression path, open world collect-athon. Not to mention the character's are so dull, and the whole thing just feels derivative.

They played it way too safe with this.

The parkouring looked really dull in the 12 min video, the combat animations looked great though.
 

scitek

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Aug 23, 2005
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Incredible... not only is rolling locked behind EXP, but so is quick turn, coiling, hanging on pipes and wires...

I might understand if we started the game with Faith as a little kid or something, but this? What IS this? Gotta grind side missions and do what I can only assume is the MrE equivalent of finding chests and collecting feathers, just to play the game the way it's meant to be played. So the game world's gotta be designed around unlocks now, right?! The fuck!?
I was just joking about the roll thing, but if it's true then holy shit.
 

Neoleo2143

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Dec 21, 2015
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I don't think it's as binary as that. A game can be skill-based and still have a skill tree/up grade system. Bayonetta, DMC and most character action games are regarded to be very skill based but they all have upgrade systems with move sets locked behind them. The inclusion of a skill tree can also be a way to slowly introduce the game systems to the players and not overwhelm them from the get go. The original ME had no skill tree but it was also a much smaller game.
You can also introduce these ideas and systems through the level design itself like what Super Mario Bros does. I don't think the goal of this progression system is to teach the player the systems when the level design in the original Mirror's Edge did this fine.
 

sonicmj1

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Dec 2, 2007
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I don't think it's as binary as that. A game can be skill-based and still have a skill tree/up grade system. Bayonetta, DMC and most character action games are regarded to be very skill based but they all have upgrade systems with move sets locked behind them. The inclusion of a skill tree can also be a way to slowly introduce the game systems to the players and not overwhelm them from the get go. The original ME had no skill tree but it was also a much smaller game.
The GameSpot preview says as much. It paraphrases the developer saying that they noticed in playtesting that players would use abilities like the quick turn more when they were unlocks than when they have everything at the start.

I'm not going to say I'm enthusiastic about the decision, but I'll see how it works in practice.
 

Menitta

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Dec 5, 2015
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I'm fine with the XP stuff. I wish it was gone, but whatever, I can deal with it. It's probably going to be like Dragon Age Inquisition where you can just not sign in before playing.

Edit: Oh god I didn't see the skill tree. That's bad.
 
Dec 10, 2013
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I'm still getting the game, it looks quite good and still fluid with the movement its just annoying that they are gating certain mechanics that we had from the start on the original Mirror's edge.

Look I understand that they might have thought that gradually unlocking skills in a tree would introduce new mechanics to some players, but to people who have little free time or fans from the original game will be disappointed to find that they need to unlock the roll, coil etc mechanics.
 

A-V-B

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Jun 10, 2013
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The GameSpot preview says as much. It paraphrases the developer saying that they noticed in playtesting that players would use abilities like the quick turn more when they were unlocks than when they have everything at the start.
Which influences the entire design philosophy, does it not?
 

Wowfunhappy

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Jun 2, 2013
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I actually think I like this. Even as someone who never gets motion sick, I found the rolls to be disorienting.

There was some value to that—learning to roll WITHOUT losing your sense of direction was a skill that had to be learned. However, it also kind of broke the flow.

This still feels like a roll without being completely disorienting. I still can't quite put my finger on what they did, but I like it.
 

A-V-B

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Jun 10, 2013
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I actually think I like this. Even as someone who never gets motion sick, I found the rolls to be disorienting.

There was some value to that—learning to roll WITHOUT losing your sense of direction was a skill that had to be learned. However, it also kind of broke the flow.

This still feels like a roll without being completely disorienting. I still can't quite put my finger on what they did, but I like it.
Like, it doesn't super bother me? I just think it looks a little weird. I would've gotten used to it. Eventually.
 

RSB

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Feb 15, 2009
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On the flip side, games like Super Metroid and Wario Land 2-3 have been long, rich experiences that gated off certain areas because of moves. Until you got the super butt smash, you couldn't go certain routes.

Same with Gaucamelee -- it's skill-based but your skills keep improving.

Now Catalyst may not be an awesome metroidvania, but even as a hardcore Mirror's Edge fan I'm giving that particular aspect the benefit of a doubt.
Yeah, me too. As I've said, as long as everything is unlocked by the end of the first playthough it won't bother me too much. After all, the real meat of the game starts once you start replaying missions and doing time trials.

I'd rather have every move from the beginning of course, but EA probably forced DICE to include those RPG mechanics. If that's what it took to get the game greenlit, I'll take it.
 

SolidSnakeUS

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Aug 1, 2013
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They better adjust that fucking tree. Something like coil should be way higher and much earlier to attain.
 

A-V-B

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Jun 10, 2013
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XP based progression = Chance to sell XP Boosters.
Depends on how much the suits are stepping in, I guess. I would love to believe that all this stuff is innocent, for playtesting reasons, but good god when has that ever been the case?
 

KORNdoggy

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Sep 20, 2013
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World and movement look great. Xp locked moves doesn't bother me. But the melee combat looks fucking abysmal. flailing arms and legs masquerading as a combat system. Kinda put me off the game tbh :/
 

Wowfunhappy

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Jun 2, 2013
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You've already answered a bunch of my questions--but I don't suppose it would be possible to label those other upgrades? Do we even know what they are?

Coiling is actually a moderately advanced move--I don't think I used it all in my first playthrough. I forget that it existed.
 

Melchior

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Jul 21, 2014
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Jesus that giant crosshair that shows the positioning of enemies is horrible. I hope you'll be able to disable it. Also the hologram runners I'm assuming is just for the tutorial if not then let me disable that too. And the progression tree is a giant mistake. I've been cautiously optimistic but my expectations are lowered from what I've seen.
 

SolidSnakeUS

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Aug 1, 2013
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I just realized it will be out next month... seriously, this year has been so fast... also probably doesn't help that time flies when you're older lol.
 

A-V-B

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Jun 10, 2013
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You've already answered a bunch of my questions--but I don't suppose it would be possible to label those other upgrades? Do we even know what they are?

Coiling is actually a moderately advanced move--I don't think I used it all my first playthrough, I forget that it existed.
The others were balancing on wires, hanging from pipes, quick turn, shifting, springboarding, focus shield, and longer slide distance (which is on the final branch.) There were obviously more on there I didn't see because the guy didn't hover over them.
 
Oct 11, 2007
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The way she turns on a dime and at right angles makes it look weird at times, but the perspective is really nice. Too bad about movement, as it really doesn't fit the style of game this is and just looks awkward, especially when coupled with the sound. It's like she turns a corner sharply, with no momentum, and you hear multiple footsteps along with it which doesn't make much sense. Eh, oh well. I didn't expect them to completely nail it in that regard anyway. Still, looks pretty good. I'll probably pick it up eventually.
 

eso76

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Jun 25, 2004
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Skill trees work fine in open world.
They're basically giving this a Metroidvania structure, meaning you are not really allowed to go anywhere right from the start.
Plus it's a good way to introduce new moves without you feeling overwhelmed.
Works for me.

OK, i guess simple rolling could have been left out of this, though.
 

Wowfunhappy

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Jun 2, 2013
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World and movement look great. Xp locked moves doesn't bother me. But the melee combat looks fucking abysmal. flailing arms and legs masquerading as a combat system. Kinda put me off the game tbh :/
I still don't want to watch the videos (I'm beginning to think I may have to so I can discuss this properly), but remember that fight with
Celeste
in the first game? It's the only fight of its type, and it was admittedly kind of clumsy, but it's also the reason I think melee combat could work.

That feeling when she spin-kicks you, and you duck under her leg, and then jump and kick out so as to come down on her head, and she dodges out of the way, all in first person... I have never played through a combat that felt quite so visceral. It felt right for a game like Mirror's Edge.
 

Arion

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Jun 13, 2013
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You can also introduce these ideas and systems through the level design itself like what Super Mario Bros does. I don't think the goal of this progression system is to teach the player the systems when the level design in the original Mirror's Edge did this fine.
I totally disagree with the last part. I am willing to wager a lot of people who played the original ME did not understand most of the complexities of the game by the time they finished. It took me several playthrough to fully grasp all the movement options available.

A progression system like this where you learn a new ability gradually and periodically is much better at teaching complex moves like tucking and back to back wall jumping. After you unlock one you consciously put it into practice until it become part of your standard play and then you have enough xp to unlock the next one.

By comparison ME1 had a very front loaded tutorial level. Although you had to perform all the complex moves at least once to complete that level does not mean those moves would become a part of your standard play style afterwards. At least not for more casual players.

Imagine playing shadow of mordor where all of your abilities/options are unlocked and taught to you in a single level. Sure a dedicated player can master all of them and enjoy the game to it's fullest but a casual fan would miss out on all of that.
 

A-V-B

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Jun 10, 2013
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I totally disagree with the last part. I am willing to wager a lot of people who played the original ME did not understand most of the complexities of the game by the time they finished. It took me several playthrough to fully grasp all the movement options available.

A progression system like this where you learn a new ability gradually and periodically is much better at teaching complex moves like tucking and back to back wall jumping. After you unlock one you consciously put it into practice until it become part of your standard play and then you have enough xp to unlock the next one.
So this is all a flaw of making it completely open world with (basically) no structure, which ensures there's no way to teach gameplay mechanics through good level and enemy encounter design.
 

Wowfunhappy

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Jun 2, 2013
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I totally disagree with the last part. I am willing to wager a lot of people who played the original ME did not understand most of the complexities of the game by the time they finished. It took me several playthrough to fully grasp all the movement options available.

A progression system like this where you learn a new ability gradually and periodically is much better at teaching complex moves like tucking and back to back wall jumping. After you unlock one you consciously put it into practice until it become part of your standard play and then you have enough xp to unlock the next one.
If the unlocks happened at set story points, I would agree with you. Then, you can unlock a move right before a sequence where the player will need to use it, so that they will understand when the move is helpful, and the designers can ensure its mastery.

The problem with XP is that it doesn't work like that. The designers don't know what skills I will unlock at what points in the story, so they can't plan for them in their level design.

Hoping they'll just let us unlock everything for 5 bucks.
Y'know what? I would pay it. I'd pay $30. I wouldn't for most games—I'd just play something else instead—but Mirror's Edge is special to me.

(I'm probably going to use CheatEngine, but that'll take time...)
 

A-V-B

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Jun 10, 2013
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If the unlocks happened at set story points, I would agree with you. Then, you can unlock a move right before a sequence where the player will need to use it, so that they will understand when the move is helpful, and the designers can ensure its mastery.

The problem with XP is that it doesn't work like that. The designers don't know what skills I will unlock at what points in the story, so they can't plan for them in their level design.



Y'know what? I would pay it. I wouldn't for most games, but Mirror's Edge is special.

(I'm probably going to use CheatEngine, but that'll take time...)
Would it really? Just open up Cheat Engine, have it ready to sniff for changing numbers, then expose the program to instances where XP increases.

Do that a few times (or a dozen, whatever it takes,) get a solid lock on the address, then give yourself a billion XP and you're good to go.
 

Wowfunhappy

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Jun 2, 2013
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Would it really? Just open up Cheat Engine, have it ready to sniff for changing numbers, then expose the program to instances where XP increases.

Do that a few times (or a dozen, whatever it takes,) get a solid lock on the address, then give yourself a billion XP and you're good to go.
I've never successfully found anything with cheatengine, so I usually have to wait for tables, but you're right, for something like XP it would probably be pretty simple (I've gone through the beginner tutorial so I do understand the principle of how to find stuff).

We'll have to see...
 

Neoleo2143

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Dec 21, 2015
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I totally disagree with the last part. I am willing to wager a lot of people who played the original ME did not understand most of the complexities of the game by the time they finished. It took me several playthrough to fully grasp all the movement options available.

A progression system like this where you learn a new ability gradually and periodically is much better at teaching complex moves like tucking and back to back wall jumping. After you unlock one you consciously put it into practice until it become part of your standard play and then you have enough xp to unlock the next one.

By comparison ME1 had a very front loaded tutorial level. Although you had to perform all the complex moves at least once to complete that level does not mean those moves would become a part of your standard play style afterwards. At least not for more casual players.

Imagine playing shadow of mordor where all of your abilities/options are unlocked and taught to you in a single level. Sure a dedicated player can master all of them and enjoy the game to it's fullest but casual fan would miss out on all of that.
Then the Solution isn't EXP bars, it's the combination of Star Coins from Mario and a steadily increasing difficulty/complexity curve. Challenges that demand more use of complex maneuvers while progression through the game demands more complex maneuvers as you progress. Casuals can get their kicks by playing the main game and still learn while the more advanced players still get their challenges either by unique collectibles organic to level design and taking alternate routes like ME1. EXP bars are a lazy solution to this issue unless they are used to reward the player going out of their way to do cool or harder stuff.

This is why I greatly dislike open world philosophy in regards to level design that is not exploration oriented, it murders gameplay pacing.

Edit: Shadow of Mordor's tutorial areas were quite well done actually. I just don't think they needed an EXP bar when they could've just tossed these arenas at the player to teach them in a fun way.
 

NeoRaider

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Aug 1, 2015
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I don't get this hate for the upgrades... :/ I kinda like them, they make things more interesting. And make you feel like you are progressing during the game. But maybe it's just me.
We still don't know what they are about, we only saw few of them.
 
D

Deleted member 80556

Unconfirmed Member
Hoping they'll just let us unlock everything for 5 bucks.
Don't you even give them ideas.

I don't get this hate for the upgrades... :/ I kinda like them, they make things more interesting. And make you feel like you are progressing during the game. But maybe it's just me.
We still don't know what they are about, we only saw few of them.
All of this was available from the beginning of the previous game. So not only are they going against the story of the game here (where Faith is called a legend from the get go according to another Gaffer), but they are also crippling us from the beginning.

There are better ways to design progression, and a tacked on skill set where you take player's abilities that were available before doesn't sound like a well designed progression, honestly.
 

A-V-B

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Jun 10, 2013
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I don't get this hate for the upgrades... :/ I kinda like them, they make things more interesting. And makes you feel like you are progressing during the game.
Artificially, though.

We still don't know what they are about, we only saw few of them.
There are important, classic skills locked deep into the skill tree. How much more do you need to know? I mean, it's great for newbies I guess, but if it's really about teaching newbies how to play then it should be an option to disable for everyone else.

Expert mode: check! All parkour moves unlocked!
 

Wowfunhappy

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Jun 2, 2013
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I don't get this hate for the upgrades... :/ I kinda like them, they make things more interesting. And makes you feel like you are progressing during the game. But maybe it's just me.
We still don't know what they are about, we only saw few of them.
I'm unusual in that I dislike XP unlocks in all—I think it's a stupid mechanic for reasons I've already stated—but I think the reason people are so opposed to it here is that the old Mirror's Edge was EXTREMELY skill-based. You could play through again and again and learn something new each time.
 

Comfort Jones

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Sep 8, 2013
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Hoping they'll just let us unlock everything for 5 bucks.
It's horrible that this is something people "hope" for now. Please let us have our game we paid 60 dollars for!

I don't get this hate for the upgrades... :/ I kinda like them, they make things more interesting. And make you feel like you are progressing during the game. But maybe it's just me.
We still don't know what they are about, we only saw few of them.
Fairly relevant: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TR-EuyU2hb8

It's so clearly tacked on and it makes no sense for your character to be "progressing" like this. You're not making a build, you're not doing anything intelligent to unlock them, it's just a thing that's there. Because it's all optional none of these things can have a deep meaningful impact on the game because the devs cannot have designed major levels and challenges with these unlocks in mind. Artificial to the max!
 

RipperGrim

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Oct 15, 2014
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I don't get this hate for the upgrades... :/ I kinda like them, they make things more interesting. And make you feel like you are progressing during the game. But maybe it's just me.
We still don't know what they are about, we only saw few of them.
It's padding plain and simple. Every game needing to become an rpg lite is very shit design in my opinion and completely artificial progression.
 

Shredderi

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Feb 24, 2013
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Incredible... not only is rolling locked behind EXP, but so is quick turn, coiling, hanging on pipes and wires...

I might understand if we started the game with Faith as a little kid or something, but this? What IS this? Gotta grind side missions and do what I can only assume is the MrE equivalent of finding chests and collecting feathers, just to play the game the way it's meant to be played. So the game world's gotta be designed around unlocks now, right?! The fuck!?
Ok I might not be on board anymore. Holy shit if true. I mean, fuck?
 

NeoRaider

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Aug 1, 2015
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It's padding plain and simple. Every game needing to become an rpg lite is very shit design in my opinion and completely artificial progression.
I know. But i guess it goes with game being open-world. Or... thats what developers think.