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[Holy Order Sol]

Why? these discussions make it feel like the medium is actually starting to grow up.

These discussions aren't anywhere as annoying as the "gaming needs to grow up" talk actually. Making that the underlying reason for them doesn't help matters. At least make it look like you're pursuing something that's the right thing in and of itself.

 

[aeolist]

I think it's a valid thought, but goddamn am I tired of the yelling from soapboxes, followed by more yelling when somebody yells back at your soapbox.

If you want to promote equality and change in games, DO IT. Promote those things by covering them and showing people what they're missing.

If you want to promote equality and change in journalism, DO IT. Provide the example. Provide the diversity of opinion that makes people notice.

But stop fucking screaming "you're wrong" over and over. Nobody's listening, that doesn't actually make a change. It draws a line and makes people angry (either because they're against you, or because they're for you and others are not). This is not a public movement. Politicians and the world are not forced to listen. It's a nerd fight, and it's embarrassing.

Naming and shaming people who do stupid and offensive shit is important to the discussion

 

[vissione]

.

 

[Nemesis_]

All these people making all these threads are doing is turning a serious matter into a circus/annoying subject that people will quickly dismiss.

Pretty much. It's distorting the issue itself.

 

[Herla]

Yeah, sorry, you're thinking of Kotaku

Not really, I don't even visit Kotaku.
RPS is just more subtle, and I guess I can appreciate that.

 

[Charoncaori]

I think it's a valid thought, but goddamn am I tired of the yelling from soapboxes, followed by more yelling when somebody yells back at your soapbox.

If you want to promote equality and change in games, DO IT. Promote those things by covering them and showing people what they're missing.

If you want to promote equality and change in journalism, DO IT. Provide the example. Provide the diversity of opinion that makes people notice.

But stop fucking screaming "you're wrong" over and over. Nobody's listening, that doesn't actually make a change. It draws a line and makes people angry (either because they're against you, or because they're for you and others are not). This is not a public movement. Politicians and the world are not forced to listen. It's a nerd fight, and it's embarrassing.

You change the status quo by bringing your problems with it out into the open. How the fuck are they supposed to set an example if they don't call others out on their ridiculousness?

Honestly, the people who just want everyone to shut up already are just as bad as the people on online gaming communities being openly sexist.

 

[hey_it's_that_dog]

I kind of feel like this issue would get more interest if it was about all minorities instead of just women. I"m black and all my characters tend to be our stereotypical pimps, gangster, and sports athletes but no seems to have a problem with this for some reason. I understand that women are treated unfairly but so are alot of other Ethnicity/races/genders if you see were I'm coming from.

You're completely right that those issues deserve attention as well, and I think they get it once in a while. The gender conversation may be reaching a tipping point right now, which is why it seems to be so prevalent over other concerns.

The thing is, women aren't a minority. They have the greatest numbers and the greatest potential voice among all marginalized groups in the games industry. It's just a fact of the numbers that the gender issue will dominate the stage over minority representation issues. Hopefully if progress is made in the former, it will also catalyze progress for the latter.

 

[Lime]

I kind of feel like this issue would get more interest if it was about all minorities instead of just women. I"m black and all my characters tend to be our stereotypical pimps, gangster, and sports athletes but no seems to have a problem with this for some reason. I understand that women are treated unfairly but so are alot of other Ethnicity/races/genders if you see were I'm coming from.

I completely agree with you. The topic often gets mobilized through women in gaming, but it is not common that ethnicity, skin color, or even sexuality are independently brought up. To me, the race/ethnicity/sexuality is just as incredibly important as the gender one, and the games industry needs to realize their cultural homogeneity.

You saw the same type of opposition from the gaming community when the Resident Evil 5 debacle blew up - many people responded negatively and even opposed the ones who felt harmed by the racist imagery in RE5.

 

[Gouf]

Lime, thank you for posting this thread. You're consistently one of the best posters I read on gaf and I'm always excited when I see you've posted something. You really put up with a lot of ridiculous shit from people for it, so I commend you.

For all of you who are tired of the discussion you should ask youselves; why do you think videogames are more important than women being treated like people?

 

[Omikaru]

100% support this. Keep on speaking out about these issues, RPS.

Everyone who calls it linkbait, who wants you to stop talking about it (because it makes them feel uncomfortable and hurts their precious feelings), or uses threats of violence and harassment to try and shut people up are on the wrong side of history.

The latest excuse by privileged willy wavers, is of course, to accuse the people they want to shut up of "distorting the issue" by discussing it. Because if they didn't discuss it, the issue would fix itself. Nice logic, duders.

 

[jay]

John Walker is biased because he has an opinion.

 

[Sqorgar]

The game industry is a shithole. You don't have to be a women to be oppressed by it.

Sexism and misogyny is a problem as old as time, and RPS is not going to suddenly solve it by writing a bunch of confrontational articles criticizing people who still do not see their behavior as (very) wrong.

 

[RedStep]

Naming and shaming people who do stupid and offensive shit is important to the discussion

I disagree with that, or at least I feel it isn't being used effectively. Things like the recent issue with the two guys at the conference... one party comes out looking bad, and it's not the "progressive". I love to see some good criticism, like a breakdown of a film or a speech. Discussion of the good/bad points.

This "you did something wrong!" approach doesn't work, especially when you are at such risk of firing without really aiming first. At least not in making a solid, reasonable point and influencing public opinion.

You change the status quo by bringing your problems with it out into the open. How the fuck are they supposed to set an example if they don't call others out on their ridiculousness?

The regular way that every human ever has set an example? By.... setting an example? Again, the problem is that not every person with a noble cause actually has the tact or skill to pursue it well. This is not doing it well.

 

[pixlexic]

Touchy issue for you, huh

What is it about gender equality that scares you so much?

Its not about gender equality. Its about forcing people to alter their visions.

If a publisher/investors where trying to switch out lara croft for a guy it would be the same thing in my eyes.

 

[ochaworldorder]

I just wish we'd stop talking about this.

I understand this actually because reading the pages that I could get through in the Tropes vs thread was about the worst I've felt on GAF. The amount of tortured logic and/or hateful bile some are willing to delve into just to not acknowledge the mere existence of this issue makes me realize how shitty the possibility of discussing gender in what I thought was a fairly benign pop/cultural context is (and therefore how is anything more serious wrt gender going to get addressed.

I would love it if there was a chance to discuss good female characters or writing without descending into Victorian "this whore has her disgusting tits out!" discussion of character design (guess what, this is patriarchal bs too!).

But as this article points out there's way more I know nothing about that has occurred to real women in this industry and that deserves exposure. I just don't know why at least some gamers have to infuse an issue that hurts neither our hobby nor the real people behind it to address and engage with. Thats what makes me lose faith in people as a whole to have anything but reactionary hate.

 

[Gattsu25]

I just like to get videogame news from my videogames sites, whats the matter?
From what high ground are you calling me immature?

I've played games for most of my 30 year life, i like a good story, i love good gameplay and i dont care if my character is white, black, male, female the only thing i care for is if the game is any good.

He discusses you as well:

“What happened to this site? You used to write about GAMES.”

This is obviously one of the more strange responses, yet certainly among the most prolific. At least 95% of the posts on RPS are directly about games themselves, as is obvious to anyone looking at it. Posts related to matters regarding women make up the tiniest percentage of our output, and it’s obviously nonsense to make the claim above.

 

[~ZIO~]

Is this a heated discussion in movies? TV? Books?

I honestly don't see this going anywhere despite how loud folks think they may be yelling.

 

[Uthred]

I absolutely agree it needs to be talked about, I just think it can be talked about in more constructive or nuanced ways than Mr Walker does. I'm sure he does get a lot of bile directed at him over stuff like this, which must be disheartening. But he seems to be buying into something of a self-constructed persecution complex which he now frequently uses to polarise discussion into US vs THEM. These days if you disagree with anything Mr Walker writes you're instantly dismissed as an idiot/misogynist/some sexy hybrid of the two, a perfect example was his response to the valid criticism of the limited dataset in his last "article" about gender imbalance in the industry. Actually a better example is the way he frames opposition in the text quoted in the OP, theres no room for reasoned dissent there, you either agree with Mr Walker or you are pushing your secret "keep my privilege" agenda. Because of course Mr Walker is never wrong? It's blatantly obvious that all Mr Walker is interested in doing is shouting at people, which may be required at the outset but doesnt actually lead anywhere. Also on a side note I feel it was a bit odd that the comments were turned off, I can certainly see the point in it, but again it just feels like an attempt to stifle discussion.

 

[entremet]

What's RPS?

 

[Gattsu25]

What's ...?

Edit your post. Not reading the OP can have consequences

 

[aeolist]

I like how basically every counter "argument" used so far in this thread was addressed in the article itself but everyone just saw the word "sexism" in the title and couldn't hit the reply button fast enough

I wonder if they keep these posts in a text file for easy copy/paste

 

[entremet]

Edit your post. Not reading the OP can have consequences

I read the OP, just didn't click on the link. Not familiar with the site and its history.

 

[Shake Appeal]

Its not about gender equality. Its about forcing people to alter their visions.

The former requires the latter, as this thread so clearly demonstrates. Again.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

Pretty much. It's distorting the issue itself.

The only people who turn it into a circus are the people that come in and complain about "feminist agendas" and wondering why we are talking about equality instead of what our favorite kill screen is. Then other people ask why it bothers people so much that we are talking about equality in video games and the thread goes to shit.

There's enough room on this forum for both discussions of the roles of females/black/spanish/ect and how good the graphics on the PS4 will look. But some people like to pretend that GAF has a thread limit and feel the need to complain constantly about people discussing something they're not interested in.

Is this a heated discussion in movies? TV? Books?

I honestly don't see this going anywhere despite how loud folks think they may be yelling.

It was a discussion in TV/Movies/Books decades ago. It's part of the reason people feel that the video game industry is behind the times.

 

[pixlexic]

The former requires the latter, as this thread so clearly demonstrates. Again.

but that doesn't fix the problem. it just reverses it.

 

[Sqorgar]

I like how basically every counter "argument" used so far in this thread was addressed in the article itself but everyone just saw the word "sexism" in the title and couldn't hit the reply button fast enough

Maybe the confrontational tone this discussion has is exhausting and people just assume that the article is more of the same (which it is).

 

[Gattsu25]

I read the OP, just didn't click on the link. Not familiar with the site and its history.

The article is available on pastbin so you don't have to worry about diverting traffic to a great gaming site: http://pastebin.com/kqtbeFzb

 

[aeolist]

The only people who turn it into a circus are the people that come in and complain about "feminist agendas" and wondering why we are talking about equality instead of what our favorite kill screen is. Then other people ask why it bothers people so much that we are talking about equality in video games and the thread goes to shit.

There's enough room on this forum for both discussions of the roles of females/black/spanish/ect and how good the graphics on the PS4 will look. But some people like to pretend that GAF has a thread limit and feel the need to complain constantly about people discussing something they're not interested in.

No you don't understand, it's RPS's fault for bringing the issue up in the first place. Discussions on sexism should be kept to the feminist blog ghettos of the Internet and shouldn't be allowed to contaminate our precious gaming sites.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

Maybe the confrontational tone this discussion has is exhausting and people just assume that the article is more of the same (which it is).

Then pass by this thread and don't worry about it? No one forced anyone to read anything. I don't like Metal Gear Solid but I didn't feel the need to go into every Kojima thread recently and bitch and moan about how I'm tired of people talking about it.

 

[Hot Coldman]

The game industry is a shithole. You don't have to be a women to be oppressed by it.

Sexism and misogyny is a problem as old as time, and RPS is not going to suddenly solve it by writing a bunch of confrontational articles criticizing people who still do not see their behavior as (very) wrong.

Well, doing nothing isn't exactly the way forward either. Even though I mostly agree RPS probably isn't going to have anything close to a significant impact with these articles, I'm not exactly seeing an alternative. These can't be a bad thing.

Ideally, this will get over sites to start at it too. Patrick over at Giant Bomb did a bit; Kotaku's heart seems to be in the right place even if they seem to go wildly off-base so far. Someone needs to start approaching it from a less confrontational angle- it's something worth getting angry about, but it seems people trip themselves up doing so. That tone is only ever gonna have you preach to a choir.

 

[Nemesis_]

The only people who turn it into a circus are the people that come in and complain about "feminist agendas" and wondering why we are talking about equality instead of what our favorite kill screen is. Then other people ask why it bothers people so much that we are talking about equality in video games and the thread goes to shit.

There's enough room on this forum for both discussions of the roles of females/black/spanish/ect and how good the graphics on the PS4 will look. But some people like to pretend that GAF has a thread limit and feel the need to complain constantly about people discussing something they're not interested in.

I see what you mean but I wasn't specifically talking about GAF in particular. But yeah. :/

 

[~ZIO~]

It was a discussion in TV/Movies/Books decades ago. It's part of the reason people feel that the video game industry is behind the times.

Yet I still see sexes treated unequally in those mediums even today . . . so . . .

 

[EscoBlades]

I kind of feel like this issue would get more interest if it was about all minorities instead of just women. I"m black and all my characters tend to be our stereotypical pimps, gangster, and sports athletes but no seems to have a problem with this for some reason. I understand that women are treated unfairly but so are alot of other Ethnicity/races/genders if you see were I'm coming from.

I do, and totally agree. But right now, sexism is the hot topic (and rightly so). Addressing that issue will benefit all the others linked to it, even if it takes a bit of time to get to it.

The whole industry sexism debate has made a few things very clear:

1) A LOT of people are threatened by this discussion
2) A LOT of the discussion needs to be clearer/ more streamlined for the sake of those just jumping on board
3) An even greater number are completely ignorant of the issues up for debate/ how these apply in their everyday lives. Mostly as a result of point 2
4) Sadly there will continue to be those out there that use these hot topic debates to scores brownie points with no sincere motivation to see anything change.

Now try superimposing the above with a discussion on racism. Scary huh?

 

[MacBosse]

Any sexism on a workplace is really bad. However you spin or turn it.

Sexism in games is probably not going anywhere anytime soon, as in film. Why? Because stereotypes are easy entertainment. Fast-chewed. The vast majority of consumers enjoy sexy women and cool dudes with guns. Is that a good thing? Probably not. Is that because it's what we are served by the game- and filmmakers? Oh yeah.

A lot of time, effort and risk has to be employed to make this change.

But lets face it, most of us will still be entertained by sexy women. And guns. Equality or not.

 

[entremet]

The article is available on pastbin so you don't have to worry about diverting traffic to a great gaming site: http://pastebin.com/kqtbeFzb

You misunderstand. I don't boycott sites lol. I agree with them, I just didn't know about the context surrounding the OP.

 

[Wounded]

I'd like to see RPS address the fact that they named Far Cry 3 their GoTY (as far as that goes) but also called it "a bit racist".

 

[Kazerei]

Its not about gender equality. Its about forcing people to alter their visions.

If a publisher/investors where trying to switch out lara croft for a guy it would be the same thing in my eyes.

Yeah, let's preserve all the white dudes in videogames, because of artistic vision!

Seriously, what is wrong with asking for more diversity in videogame characters.

 

[Sqorgar]

Then pass by this thread and don't worry about it? No one forced anyone to read anything.

This misogyny in the industry thing is a discussion worth having, but trying to get men to apologize for being men is a misguided effort that will only serve to make the gulf between genders worse.

It's not about whether I agree with the article or not, I take issue with the tone (and the conclusions it comes to).

 

[MrNyarlathotep]

The fundamental problem people have with prejudice is that those who have not suffered from it have very little understanding of just how corrupting and endemic it can be.

If you're a middle class, affluent, straight, white boy you have never encountered actual prejudice. Even if you have a silly haircut and wear makeup to be like the cool kids and get funny looks from strangers.

What you need to do before complaining how sick you are about hearing about this is gain a little empathy, because however sick you are about hearing about it is an infinitely miniscule fraction of how sick the people actually living it are.

Whether it is gender, race, religion, or sexual preference.

 

[Zen_Arcade]

Yet I still see sexes treated unequally in those mediums even today . . . so . . .

But they're undeniably better then they were. There were times when women weren't even allowed to play women in theater productions.

And they're better now because people stepped up and talked about it. Just because everything isn't perfect yet doesn't mean no progress has been made. You're very short sighted on the subject.

 

[aeolist]

Maybe the confrontational tone this discussion has is exhausting and people just assume that the article is more of the same (which it is).

Maybe idiots and assholes need to be confronted and shamed over their behavior

Maybe people like ourselves in positions of gender/racial/sexual orientational privilege should be speaking up about issues that affect minorities

Maybe if stuff like this bothers you so much you should think about why that is instead of just embracing indifference and demanding to know why people fucking care about social issues so much

 

[Kiriku]

Lime, thank you for posting this thread.

Agreed, keep it up, Lime. I read through the whole tropes vs women thread, and it made me care more about this issue than I have ever done before.

 

[pixlexic]

Yeah, let's preserve all the white dudes in videogames, because of artistic vision!

Seriously, what is wrong with asking for more diversity in videogame characters.

nothings wrong with wanting or asking.. what is wrong is when you declare it evil and try to make someone feel bad for enjoying those games.

 

[Sapphire Dreams]

I am not as much sick of as much as how the industry refuses to acknowledge this whole issue, I there is an issue with this whole sexism thing, for those who say this is a male driven industry there are wrong, there had been always women involved in the industry since the Atari days and seeing them as inferior to us males in this field is just disgusting and this industry needs to change it's attitude.

Hell, even creating female protagonists in a game is highly not recommended, or worse even putting them on boxarts, is this how we become? so afraid of their existence in this industry so much that we alienate them? just pathetic, unbelievable pathetic.

 

[[Clark Gable]]

4chan users send death threats to anyone they disagree with, because, the average person on 4chan is incapable of genuine human interaction or they're just trolling.

At least on 4chan you get to discuss things with people who have varying opinions. On GAF you're instantly banned if you disagree with the hive mind. Also, this topic is going to be around for a long time, if we like it or not, it's the new cool fad.

 

[PairOfFilthySocks]

As much as I like Walker, it's hard to take him seriously when he seems to be more interested in an ego trip than actually paying attention to his own evidence. The article on gender wage inequality was particularly egregious, seeing as the banjaxed statistics he was basing his outrage on were right there at the top of the article.

 

[Wuthering_Heights]

At least on 4chan you get to discuss things with people who have varying opinions. On GAF you're instantly banned if you disagree with the hive mind. Also, this topic is going to be around for a long time, if we like it or not, it's the new cool fad.

At least until the next gen consoles come around.

 

[Bladenic]

Never even heard of RPS until just now, but will read more (I've read the article in OP).

 

[Sqorgar]

Well, doing nothing isn't exactly the way forward either. Even though I mostly agree RPS probably isn't going to have anything close to a significant impact with these articles, I'm not exactly seeing an alternative. These can't be a bad thing.

Picking one's battles would be a good start. The only thing this article seems really offended at is that the author told a bunch of guys that they were horrible, women hating people and then was surprised when people responded appropriately.

 

[Htown]

At least on 4chan you get to discuss things with people who have varying opinions. On GAF you're instantly banned if you disagree with the hive mind. Also, this topic is going to be around for a long time, if we like it or not, it's the new cool fad.

hive mind?