Yea, because in post I said I was fully ok with what he did. That was my point guys. Good job.
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Mitt Romney bullied kid for looking "gay" back in school
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echoshifting
Banned
Anyone who tells you Romney has no chance is lying, naïve or OD'ing on hubris. He's the GOP nominee, of course he can. Anything can happen between now and November.
If the election were held today? Probably not, but as long as he's one of the two biggest names on the ballot, he still has a chance.
Mercury Fred
Banned
Well, you're either very shitty at getting your point across or you like defending bullies. Either way, you have some work to do.
bengraven
Member
I wish I went to your school. I saw two agriculture teachers watching and laughing when I got my ass kicked by three farm kids in the hallway outside their classrooms.
When I later brought it up to my homeroom teacher, a 21 year old woman who always talked to us about the importance of reporting discrimination and abuse, she shook her head and said there was nothing she could do about that.
I'm not trying to accomplish anything - yours is not an argument. You're factually incorrect if you think the vast majority of school's don't deal with this type of bullying. Almost every school in the nation reports some problem with bullying, and the bullying is often pervasive and unending. My school had anti-bullying assemblies, campaigns designed to make kids sympathize with the bullied, teachers which were frequently telling us it was OK to talk to them. At the end of the day, you're factually incorrect - boys WILL be boys, and the statistics show that. It doesn't make it right, it doesn't mean we shouldn't fight to reduce the numbers or change the reality. But it IS the reality. Arguing that you anecdotally went to the one school in the nation that didn't deal with this is just pissing at the wind, because statistics do not support your view.
echoshifting
Banned
Well, I wasn't around in the 60's, but if he pulled that today I am pretty sure he would be arrested and charged for it.
Bullying is so out of control that such a dramatic incident would not be tolerated (at least I fucking hope so). It's the attitude that disturbs me, I am with you on that one.
Devolution
Member
I know bullying is common in places and that's not my contention but even certain kinds of bullying are just straight up planned assault like in this case. It went from randomly picking on a kid to holding him down and taking scissors to his hair. If this kind of behavior is or was common in anyone's high school, then frankly that's quite the fucked up atmosphere to go to school in, but it still doesn't do anything to justify the actions of assholes like Romney.
There are scores of 18 year olds and older who didn't do this to their peers. And believe it or not they're the majority, not the fucks who act in ways like Romney did. Yet we're going to act like this is acceptable? Or so common place that "shit happens"? Because "boys will be boys"? No, bullying shitheads will be bullying shit heads and the less apologetic people are about it the better.
faceless007
Member
So are you dismissing it as insignificant or not? Because earlier you seemed to be.
I remember a dude getting an entire garbage can dumped on his head during lunch. It was Hat Day, didn't have one on, so a couple of guys decided to give him one. They then pounded the can just to make sure it fit snug.
Kids are brutal, they do really stupid shit to one another. Not condoning the behavior but shit like this happens across America unfortunately.
Kids are brutal, they do really stupid shit to one another. Not condoning the behavior but shit like this happens across America unfortunately.
There are two things I'm saying
1. As a kid, he should have been severely punished. That is unacceptable behavior.
2. As an adult, that stuff should be washed clean - it's mistakes people make in the oppressive window of peer pressure and what we should be doing is actively fighting to reduce the number of severe bullying incidents, not prosecuting the adult ex-bullies who are almost certainly not still bullies.
Mistakes as kids in school, unless it's rape or murder or something like that, should be 'forgiven' as people make the transition into adulthood. And by 'forgiven', i mean it should not be fucking held against an adult individual running for office.
You're right that it is nearly ubiquitous, but I don't see why you dismiss his actions as insignificant because of that. The mere fact that nearly every school has problems with bullying and sexual harassment doesn't mean that every kid has been guilty of bullying someone, and certainly not as egregiously as going out of your way on several occasions (the kid who appeared gay, the blind teacher) to humiliate someone.
And I find it difficult to buy the argument of peer pressure when Romney is repeatedly described as a ringleader, and not someone who found himself swept into it.
Sorry, but you are out of touch with reality.
faceless007
Member
Again, elementary or middle school bullying is endemic and a big problem, but that's an altogether different topic from this because he was fucking 18. Yes, most people figure out the difference between right and wrong by then, or at least that it's not cool to get your friends to physically assault someone because you don't like the length of his hair. That's straight-up sociopathic behavior right there, and I would expect anyone claiming to have the temperament and values to be the President to have figured that shit out by the time he got to 18. Kids are bullies because they're trying to establish a pecking order in the world and want to exert dominance over whoever they can. Someone who still feels the need to control other people like that at 18, and hasn't learned that it's not cool to treat other people with the same need for domination, is probably a sociopath, or at the very least, never learned how to treat his fellow people with any empathy. And if someone hasn't learned that at 18 I question whether he ever will.
Devolution
Member
And you want to continue an abusive status quo.
half a moon
Banned
I can't stop how far he goes politically, and if he's the president he's the president, but there are a number of things where I can say "I don't like this man as a person."
Or some of you are just incredibly touchy and dont even bother to think about what I said and instead jump to 'you're defending bullying!' the second you read my comment.
bengraven
Member
Well the reason I brought it up was because you made a point about "boys will be boys" being bullshit and I agree. In my situation hey were planned attacks on me because it was a genuinely assumed I was gay, as well. Even the ag teachers assumed I was gay - one of them once said, out loud, to the class that "you should all be proud to have your children treat you wish respect...except Ben because we know he's isn't going to have children". Class laughs. I complain to principal. Principal laughs and says I'm just trying to cause trouble and covering up for the fact that I had a horrendous absentee record.
What? Picking on kids? I don't recall any haircutting incidents, but things like kids getting their stuff grabbed off of them and dumped on the floor, kids getting shoved or punched, having possessions taken and broken, general cruel shit most certainly happened and this was at a relatively normal high school. I don't know what kind of mythical high school you went to where everyone acted like an adult, but at the majority of public schools I assure you that is not the case. Is bullying rampant? No, but it does happen with enough frequency that it's not surprising.
Nobody here really is "defending" bullying. No one here thinks it's "right", despite the efforts by one side of the Mitt Romney discussion to make it seem like they do. But bringing this up 50 years after it happened and acting like its relevant to the kind of person they are now? Please.
I wonder how many of you are over the age of 30. If you are, are you anything like you were when you were a kid?
Yup! Again, you've managed to precisely pinpoint my stance on the issue without me having ever stated it or even implied it. You're really good at this!
Devolution
Member
Which is terrible and I'm sorry you have to go through that Ben. And the fact that the leadership also laughed at you makes it worse.
Was there something else to take from your post?
Yes. And the 18 year olds who are doing the right thing should be rewarded, and the 18 year olds who aren't doing the right thing should be punished.
But the 60 year old who made mistakes as an 18 year old in school? Give me a break. He's not a bully as an adult. He's a flip-flopper, he's got no spine, he has very little sympathy or even understanding of the real problems people of lower incomes than his own face - but is his bullying @ 18 something that is even remotely going to inform the type of president he would be in 2012? Of course not. It's ridiculous.
Some statistics:
-- Eighty-six percent of public schools in 2005-06 reported that one or more violent incidents, thefts of items valued at $10 or greater or other crimes had occurred -- a rate of 46 crimes per 1,000 enrolled students.
-- Almost a third of students ages 12 to 18 reported being bullied inside school.
-- Nearly a quarter of teenagers reported the presence of gangs at their schools.
-- Bullying was a factor in 2/3 of all school shootings that took place in the U.S.
-- Thirty percent of those who are bullied said they brought a weapon into school to protect themselves
-- 20 percent of all high school students say they have contemplated suicide at least once.
It's a huge problem. And it's a huge problem in the vast, vast majority of schools in the country. Boys being Boys isn't the derogatory thing you seem to think it is - if we try to act like territorial bullying isn't commonplace, it diminishes the problem. But it's also unfair to try to paint these boys who ARE being boys as some irredeemable monsters that need to have their stupid decisions follow them into their deep, deep adulthood. That solves nothing.
Mercury Fred
Banned
Ah, yes. "Touchy" because we don't sign off on pre-meditated assault as a-ok behavior.
cheststrongwell
my cake, fuck off
This story will unravel. People grasping at straws in here. There are plenty of other things to stick him on.
And you're still going on with this imaginary argument where I said bullying was acceptable behavior......
Devolution
Member
Was there something else to take away from your post?
Cool... GWB, for all his cowboy idiocy, at least isn't a unfeeling Rombot.
Mercury Fred
Banned
No, but it's fun watching him dance for us.
Dance, Seanspeed, dance!! Work dat assss!
echoshifting
Banned
Well, we want to be careful with that sort of assumption. Some could also be deeply traumatized and are unwilling to examine what happened to them as vicious, unusual and/or criminal.
Sorry, the statute of limitations for compliments on that incident has run out.
And who better to report back from the future to let you guys know that people DO change?
NO ONE is saying bullying is ok. NO ONE.
- Lack of empathy towards his peers
- Lack of empathy towards his teacher
- Lack of empathy for his dog
- Lack of empathy for the real problems people of lower incomes face
Noticing a pattern?
I agree. You might change growing up, but when recent history matches up with your past you can draw the conclusion that person hasn't changed. Romney is still just as messed up.
bengraven
Member
Oh I'm not accusing anyone here of anything. I'm simply talking about the general population or more appropriately the sampling that I've experienced. I think the majority took part and the minority are people who were able to overcome their traumas and grow from it. I wish I had been in the minority, but unfortunately I can't say that - I'm not proud of it, but it fucked me for a long time.
This is what the point of the thread should have been. He's essentially "bullying" even today.
This is what the point of the thread should have been. He's essentially "bullying" even today.
Snap, he was 18?
For a guy that went to France and tried to convert people to his religion around 18-17 years old at the time, This says tons about him.
BertramCooper
Banned
Thanks for putting words in my mouth.
I wasn't specifically talking about bullying. Almost every single one of us probably did something incredibly stupid, deeply embarrassing, or unbelievably mean while we were in high school. And many of those indiscretions could potentially be used against us should we decide to run for public office some day.
I'm merely saying that it's really fucking tough to get out of your teenage years without doing something you end up being deeply ashamed of. And depending on the indiscretion, it shouldn't necessarily be held against you forty years later. I can't make a judgment about this particular situation because there's quite a bit of conflicting information.
NathanMcMahon
Banned
be shocked at both. quite sad.
You might not be, but a lot of people do. "Oh, bullying isn't a problem. It makes kids grow up! If we don't let kids get bullied, they're just gonna grow up to be a bunch of pussies!" - This is something that some people actually believe. Usually those who were bullies when they were kids, and are now the parents of bullies.
Yea, fair enough. I should be specific and say no one HERE is saying its ok, which is what a few posters keep trying to accuse some of us of saying or implying. We're just not ignoring reality, thats all.
The problem with this story is that it is starting to come together as a narrative that is defining Romney's character.
It will be okay for him if he can defend it as "just being a regular kid", but it's going to look more like a pattern of abusive behavior by a privileged jerk/asshole.
Congrats Devo, you went to a great HS where the adults actually held people accountable for their actions.
However its just a hunch, bet more people in this thread can identify with the type of HS I went to. The type of high school where the teachers/admins played favorites about who they did/didnt punish and how severely those punishments were based on whether they were a good kid, troublemaker, etc. I know because I was often the beneficiary of being a "good kid." I put it in quotes because in the presence of adults I was generally good aside from random bouts of disruptiveness for the sake of entertainment, but unsupervised I could be a problem.
Beyond that, a good portion of the adults in my HS just plain out didn't give a shit and often contributed to the bullying in their own clever ways (i see some people above have made mention of snarky comments from teachers).
Either that or they'd just tell kids to toughen up or "don't let the bullies win" in various forms because they just don't take it seriously. I've seen it.
These things (i think) are a major component in the whole "boys will be boys" phenomenon. When there's no fear of punishment, it emboldens you.
Those are just my experiences though as someone who has participated in what some would call bullying (personally I wouldn't but w/e) as well as been a target (not in a consistent and deliberate way though)
But like I said, I'd think this type of school environment is a lot more common and easier to identify with.
echoshifting
Banned
God, high school is so terrible.
Our vice principal referred to me and mine as "the dirties." We all did drugs, practiced the occult and participated in orgies. He based this on the fact that we all wore black and some of us were pretty goth or punk. He actually said these things to my mother when she called to complain about unfair discrimination. He thought he had a pretty good reason for it, I guess. Sigh.
I don't think it makes it any less fucked up, but admins and teachers are a part of the problem
Our vice principal referred to me and mine as "the dirties." We all did drugs, practiced the occult and participated in orgies. He based this on the fact that we all wore black and some of us were pretty goth or punk. He actually said these things to my mother when she called to complain about unfair discrimination. He thought he had a pretty good reason for it, I guess. Sigh.
I don't think it makes it any less fucked up, but admins and teachers are a part of the problem
What reality is that?
Why do I get this sinking feeling the ones saying bullying, even at 18, is just innocent kids stuff that should not be brought up again or used to judge character were the ones bullying in school.
Here's a hint, the ones guilty of bullying, abuse, violence and emotionally scarring people I'm sure it's real easy to forgive yourselves and move on and try to tell the rest of us to forget it and move on. Abusers tend to make excuses and say stuff like that. Those that were bullied and abused as kids and in school it's not that easy to forget and move on.
Here's a hint, the ones guilty of bullying, abuse, violence and emotionally scarring people I'm sure it's real easy to forgive yourselves and move on and try to tell the rest of us to forget it and move on. Abusers tend to make excuses and say stuff like that. Those that were bullied and abused as kids and in school it's not that easy to forget and move on.
That kids can be cruel and that what you do as a kid shouldn't define how you are perceived later in life. C'mon now. This argument has come full circle now.
Some people seem to want us to all condemn him for this and I simply cant do it. If anybody ever comes up to me and tells me something wrong or uncompassionate they did as a teenager, I will not judge them for it. Thats it. If some of you guys want to take that as 'acceptance' of whatever behavior they tell me about, then you're mistaken. Its about forgiveness and the knowledge that people do change, particularly as you undertake the process of becoming an adult. If any of you have girlfriends/boyfriends/wives/husbands that you love, I'm sure you know of some stuff from their past you're not too happy about. Do you hate them for it, though? Do you rub it in their face all the time? No, you accept that they made mistakes and so long as they've learned from it, you move on. With Romney, this last part is arguable, so feel free to go down that line of discussion, but as for the rest, it should really be taken with more perspective.
That would be nobody then.
IrrelevantNotch
Banned
It should since he doesn't remember it. That's the disturbing part. I'm still haunted by the mean things I said as a kid.
adamsappel
Member
That is...really horrible behavior. And to think I feel ashamed that I laughed along with people calling a kid "retard" and making fun of his pants.
Have you tracked down any of the people you picked on or bullied and apologized or asked them to forgive you? Honestly.
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