Support NeoGAF

[SwiftDeath]

Why is MS buying us all ponies and will it lead to a divorce with Mom?

 

[DrkSage]

Ive been following this thread for a while now. They gave an confirmation but not a 100% certain one, sooo.. we still arent sure whats actually happening?

Why is MS buying us all ponies and will it lead to a divorce with Mom?

Because MS promised to get us a pony for our birthday and yes, probably, but nothing to worry about! it will still be a great birthday!

 

[op_ivy]

if mods are going to update thread titles reflecting more accurate/updated news, can we also get mod edits to the OP reflecting new news?

 

[NoMoreTrolls]

This is an announced product! "Yeah we're still doing it" is no skin off their back. The fact that the line changed from "we're doing this thing" to "~best possible solutions stay tuned~" is very significant.

Look at the Last Guardian thing:

This happened:

That makes you confident that TLG is being worked on.

This didn't happen:

That would have been evasive and made it look like something fishy's up.

Troof

 

[Delusibeta]

Honestly? I suspect that the devkit plans have been canned ages ago, and Microsoft is stringing people along by pulling pages out of the Last Guardian playbook: don't ever admit you cancelled it years ago, and people will believe you.

 

[Mr. X]

Microsoft can't catch a break with the XBone. Just say no comment if you're not sure on the matter.

 

[watership]

This is resumbling Other OS PS3 removal.

No. See, that actually happened.

 

[viveks86]

Wait, so there is some confusion on the topic? Don't see the update in the OP. What did I miss?

 

[Poodlestrike]

Wait, so there is some confusion on the topic? Don't see the update in the OP. What did I miss?

MS told Kotaku that it's not canceled.

 

[viveks86]

MS told Kotaku that it's not canceled.

Thanks

 

[k3rn3ll]

MS told Kotaku that it's not canceled.

I feel this also correlates with a few other things MS has been dealing with in recent months. Phil stated recently that they were still planning on doing Family Share that was announced at launch. But he also stated that the reason its taking so long is that when the console dropped always online connection mandatory, it has left them with a really hard way of implementing features to control DRM for these products. Havo ng to do DRM for both discs and digital games without the inline mandatory. He didnt say its not possible but that they are still working on it but because they still havent nailed down the exact way they can do it thats 99.9% secure. Now think about that on the scale of the retail/dev kit units being in everyone's hand. It would be a disastrous decision to put these out without having a way for the dev kits to check in with DRM. You are opening yourself up to alot of problems such as piracy. I know alot of people want to act like piracy is a cop out used only by execs in a pinch to answer questions, but this could literally decimate the console industry specifically, not just themselves. Imagine how much easier that would be to do for a programmer that has his own dev kit. And just like everything else, once one person figures it out a ton will do it. Were talking billions in lost profit. Just curious as to other peoples opinions on this if its the cause for the delay. Let me know because I couldn't find this thought thrown out on other boards tonight. Just alot of of non-devs whining. Nor have an intelligient convo about it

 

[SwiftDeath]

I feel this also correlates with a few other things MS has been dealing with in recent months. Phil stated recently that they were still planning on doing Family Share that was announced at launch. But he also stated that the reason its taking so long is that when the console dropped always online connection mandatory, it has left them with a really hard way of implementing features to control DRM for these products. Havo ng to do DRM for both discs and digital games without the inline mandatory. He didnt say its not possible but that they are still working on it but because they still havent nailed down the exact way they can do it thats 99.9% secure. Now think about that on the scale of the retail/dev kit units being in everyone's hand. It would be a disastrous decision to put these out without having a way for the dev kits to check in with DRM. You are opening yourself up to alot of problems such as piracy. I know alot of people want to act like piracy is a cop out used only by execs in a pinch to answer questions, but this could literally decimate the console industry specifically, not just themselves. Imagine how much easier that would be to do for a programmer that has his own dev kit. And just like everything else, once one person figures it out a ton will do it. Were talking billions in lost profit. Just curious as to other peoples opinions on this if its the cause for the delay. Let me know because I couldn't find this thought thrown out on other boards tonight. Just alot of of non-devs whining. Nor have an intelligient convo about it

Why would you make a big deal out of a feature if you didn't already know of a reasonable way to introduce it without crippling your own ecosystem?

 

[k3rn3ll]

I don't really see how directly answering it and saying it's not happening is better than letting people make false assumptions. Guessing based on the Kotaku article that Jason linked with Spencer's comments, it seems like he knew nobody is working on it now and assumed that means nobody will ever be working on it, while Spencer and Nelson are implying that some day eventually it will be assigned to somebody.

I think its exactly like he said. They focused attention elsewhere because other things are more important at the moment. Like I said in my previous post... this decision was most likely dependent on having every unit online for drm. Then they wouldn't have to worry as much about piracy even though there's millions of dev kits out there

 

[ethomaz]

It was pretty obvious.... even the MS response... I opened a thread weeks ago about these features not delivered.

 

[k3rn3ll]

Why would you make a big deal out of a feature if you didn't already know of a reasonable way to introduce it without crippling your own ecosystem?

Always online was removed one month before id@xbox was announced. Im sure they had already decided on doing the id@xbox program before the time they removed online. Either that or they still felt they could accomplish everything without online but hit some roadblocks and decided to move support to doing something that they felt was more important ATM. Hence why they are just giving the dev kits out now instead.

 

[netBuff]

Thanks

You were just mislead, this is not what Microsoft has said.

MS told Kotaku that it's not canceled.

MS has stated that they "remain committed to ensuring the best possible solution": That's as close to outright stating "it's cancelled" as it gets; they obviously don't want to outright admit to this fact to avoid negative PR repercussions. Better to never release but not directly admit.

 

[SwiftDeath]

I think its exactly like he said. They focused attention elsewhere because other things are more important at the moment. Like I said in my previous post... this decision was most likely dependent on having every unit online for drm. Then they wouldn't have to worry as much about piracy even though there's millions of dev kits out there

What?

MS reversed their online DRM policies right after E3 2013 on June 19th, 2013

Rumors of every retail unit being a debug console only started July 24th or thereabouts

MS announced the "every console as a dev kit" almost a month after reversing their DRM policies

Always online was removed one month before id@xbox was announced. Im sure they had already decided on doing the id@xbox program before the time they removed online. Either that or they still felt they could accomplish everything without online but hit some roadblocks and decided to move support to doing something that they felt was more important ATM. Hence why they are just giving the dev kits out now instead.

That seems the least likely outcome given how last minute everything ID@Xbox appears from the outside

 

[FaultTolerance]

MS has stated that they "remain committed to ensuring the best possible solution": That's as close to outright stating "it's cancelled" as it gets; they obviously don't want to outright admit to this fact to avoid negative PR repercussions.

I'm afraid I don't have as wild of an imagination as you do, as that's not what I took away from their response at all. And I'm usually pretty good at picking out corporate BS.

EDIT: Besides, let's say you were right and they simply don't want to admit they're not going to do it, in order to avoid negative PR repercussions... They're going to have to admit at SOME point and take the negative PR hit. What are they waiting for? Why delay the inevitable? When would be the right time to admit it's not coming?

 

[netBuff]

I'm afraid I don't have as wild of an imagination as you do, as that's not what I took away from their response at all. And I'm usually pretty good at picking out corporate BS.

Apparently, you're not good at picking out corporate BS at all. That's a completely non-committal statement they've made.

EDIT: Besides, let's say you were right and they simply don't want to admit they're not going to do it to avoid negative PR repercussions... They're going to have to admit at SOME point and take the negative PR hit. What are they waiting for? Why delay the inevitable? When would be the right time to admit it's not coming?

Less people will care in a year. Xbone is severely lagging in sales now, Phil can't afford bad PR.

 

[FaultTolerance]

Less people will care in a year. Xbone is severely lagging in sales now, Phil can't afford bad PR.

You're seriously saying developers just suddenly won't care in a year that they can't return their retail Xbox One's into dev machines? That's ridiculous.

 

[netBuff]

You're seriously saying developers just suddenly won't care in a year that they can't return their retail Xbox One's into dev machines? That's ridiculous.

That's not what I just stated at all.

Some developers will care, but by then, everyone will have accepted the inevitable truth you are now trying hard not to see.

 

[FaultTolerance]

That's not what I just stated at all.

Some developers will care, but by then, everyone will have accepted the inevitable truth you are now trying hard not to see.

I gotta hand it to you. This is one of the more unique perspectives I've heard yet regarding this whole thing. You get props for that.

I suppose we'll see what happens.

 

[k3rn3ll]

What?

MS reversed their online DRM policies right after E3 2013 on June 19th, 2013

Rumors of every retail unit being a debug console only started July 24th or thereabouts

MS announced the "every console as a dev kit" almost a month after reversing their DRM policies



That seems the least likely outcome given how last minute everything ID@Xbox appears from the outside

So what if the did hit a wall with the dev kits that they can't get around due to DRM, shipping dev kits is the best possible solution ATM. Plus thanks for posting links for me that back my previous statement

 

[SwiftDeath]

So what if the did hit a wall with the dev kits that they can't get around due to DRM, shipping dev kits is the best possible solution ATM. Plus thanks for posting links for me that back my previous statement

I was in mid post and thought it better to just post them so the dates were there.

You are suggesting an incredibly unlikely scenario? MS's original to allow dev kit functionality requires DRM, MS removes DRM then somehow thinks they can allow dev kit functionality without DRM then no real update on the matter for a year?

I can easily believe the feature might still come but I cannot believe that the hold-up is due to working around problems that arose from removing the DRM of all things.

 

[ethomaz]

You're seriously saying developers just suddenly won't care in a year that they can't return their retail Xbox One's into dev machines? That's ridiculous.

Xbox One being a devkit didn't affect developers at all... they have free devkits that is way better than anything MS can create via Xbox One Retail.

This just affect potential consumers that want to use the Xbox One to try to develop something... I mean somebody below the Indie tag yet... somebody starting.

Developers was never the target of this feature.

 

[FaultTolerance]

Xbox One being a devkit didn't affect developers at all... they have free devkits that is way better than anything MS can create via Xbox One Retail.

This just affect potential consumers that want to use the Xbox One to try to develop something... I mean somebody below the Indie tag yet... somebody starting.

Developers was never the target of this feature.

Well, now we're just getting into semantics about what a "developer" is. I mean at what point does a person become a developer? If they create something original, does that not make them a developer? Or do they have to first sell their idea? Or get an investor?

Everyone's going to have their own opinions about what a developer is, and everyone's going to have their own opinion about whether or not Microsoft is going to go through with their original plans until we see something concrete.

 

[rjcc]

Well, now we're just getting into semantics about what a "developer" is. I mean at what point does a person become a developer? If they create something original, does that not make them a developer? Or do they have to first sell their idea? Or get an investor?

Everyone's going to have their own opinions about what a developer is, and everyone's going to have their own opinion about whether or not Microsoft is going to go through with their original plans until we see something concrete.

who tf spent $500 on an XB1 with no concrete date on when it might maybe could become a dev kit? what were they worried about, that when the dev kit update arrived all of the xbox ones would be sold out?

 

[reptilescorpio]

Not shocked, always seemed like a huge task to get that ability happening.

I certainly wouldn't be cross at MS if it never happened.

 

[Quasar]

Not shocked, always seemed like a huge task to get that ability happening.

I certainly wouldn't be cross at MS if it never happened.

I'd be bummed as it was one thing that made me interested and I hoped it would push Sony to do the same. I've always felt expensive custom hardware for development was an issue compared to other platforms (pcs, tablets, phones).

 

[reptilescorpio]

I'd be bummed as it was one thing that made me interested and I hoped it would push Sony to do the same. I've always felt expensive custom hardware for development was an issue compared to other platforms (pcs, tablets, phones).

Considering the beefy specs of past dev kits I've played around with I was mostly interested in how they were going to leverage the retail hardware with full/mostly full dev capability. Would have been cool to see, I assume it would have used The Cloud quite heavily.

 

[ethomaz]

Considering the beefy specs of past dev kits I've played around with I was mostly interested in how they were going to leverage the retail hardware with full/mostly full dev capability. Would have been cool to see, I assume it would have used The Cloud quite heavily.

I don't believe you will get 100% of the hardware with the Retail DevKit... for that you will need a proper DevKit yet.

 

[Alx]

Xbox One being a devkit didn't affect developers at all... they have free devkits that is way better than anything MS can create via Xbox One Retail.

This just affect potential consumers that want to use the Xbox One to try to develop something... I mean somebody below the Indie tag yet... somebody starting.

Developers was never the target of this feature.

That's not entirely true. It appears there are availability issues with regular SDKs, confirmed by developers saying they're still waiting for their hardware, and even MS itself,which admits they have to choose carefully which developer will get the priority.
Being able to turn retail consoles into devkits would have solved that problem, at least partially.

 

[Chobel]

That's not entirely true. It appears there are availability issues with regular SDKs, confirmed by developers saying they're still waiting for their hardware, and even MS itself,which admits they have to choose carefully which developer will get the priority.
Being able to turn retail consoles into devkits would have solved that problem, at least partially.

Penello said the dev-kits have the same hardware as the normal retail SKU, the only difference is the software installed, so it should be really that simple to give indies dev-kits, no?

That means the problem isn't dev-kit availability but something else that probably won't be fixed by this functionality of "retail=devkit".

 

[justsomeguy]

So to the person / people saying it's going to enable piracy, too much of a risk, etc... You realise every 360 was open to developers via xna right? I could write code on my laptop, hit f5, and it ran on my console. Was kind of awesome and it didn't get wrecked by piracy. Not quite the same thing as using an xbox one directly as a dev kit but as near as damn it - cant imagine there are many people who are interested in developing for a console that don't own a pc already, if that's the route they go.

 

[Nightengale]

So to the person / people saying it's going to enable piracy, too much of a risk, etc... You realise every 360 was open to developers via xna right? I could write code on my laptop, hit f5, and it ran on my console. Was kind of awesome and it didn't get wrecked by piracy. Not quite the same thing as using an xbox one directly as a dev kit but as near as damn it - cant imagine there are many people who are interested in developing for a console that don't own a pc already, if that's the route they go.

Not really. 360 was the pirates choice of consoles. It got wrecked by piracy.

PS3 got jailbroken too later,but it was a far less elegant solution.

 

[Chobel]

So to the person / people saying it's going to enable piracy, too much of a risk, etc... You realise every 360 was open to developers via xna right? I could write code on my laptop, hit f5, and it ran on my console. Was kind of awesome and it didn't get wrecked by piracy. Not quite the same thing as using an xbox one directly as a dev kit but as near as damn it - cant imagine there are many people who are interested in developing for a console that don't own a pc already, if that's the route they go.

XNA gave you limited access to X360 hardware though, Dev-kit functionality supposedly will give you full access to Xbox One hardware/APIs, so not really the same thing.

 

[JAYSIMPLE]

Why would you make a big deal out of a feature if you didn't already know of a reasonable way to introduce it without crippling your own ecosystem?

Did they announce it before or after the 180?

 

[Solaire of Astora]

I feel this also correlates with a few other things MS has been dealing with in recent months. Phil stated recently that they were still planning on doing Family Share that was announced at launch. But he also stated that the reason its taking so long is that when the console dropped always online connection mandatory, it has left them with a really hard way of implementing features to control DRM for these products. Havo ng to do DRM for both discs and digital games without the inline mandatory. He didnt say its not possible but that they are still working on it but because they still havent nailed down the exact way they can do it thats 99.9% secure. Now think about that on the scale of the retail/dev kit units being in everyone's hand. It would be a disastrous decision to put these out without having a way for the dev kits to check in with DRM. You are opening yourself up to alot of problems such as piracy. I know alot of people want to act like piracy is a cop out used only by execs in a pinch to answer questions, but this could literally decimate the console industry specifically, not just themselves. Imagine how much easier that would be to do for a programmer that has his own dev kit. And just like everything else, once one person figures it out a ton will do it. Were talking billions in lost profit. Just curious as to other peoples opinions on this if its the cause for the delay. Let me know because I couldn't find this thought thrown out on other boards tonight. Just alot of of non-devs whining. Nor have an intelligient convo about it

Bit of a wall of text.... But anyway, I don't see why it's so hard to implement. Like it or not, any scheme that allows users to digitally share items is going to require some form of DRM. Why not offer users the ability to do the family sharing thing on the understanding that both consoles will need to remain connected to the internet while in family sharing mode?

Is there something I'm missing here? "Hey. You want to share games with your family. That's great, but we'll need you and the other person to remain connected to our servers while in family sharing mode. Do you agree?" Then if someone's internet connection dies a message pops up saying "We're sorry. Your family member is offline. Please try again later."

 

[Chobel]

Did they announce it before or after the 180?

After.

 

[SwiftDeath]

Did they announce it before or after the 180?

Dev Kit functionality out of retail XB1's was announced about a month after the DRM polciices were reversed if that's what you're asking for.

 

[justsomeguy]

XNA gave you limited access to X360 hardware though, Dev-kit functionality supposedly will give you full access to Xbox One hardware/APIs, so not really the same thing.

Have they actually said that - "full access to apis"? Not seen that quote. Personally I've been expecting something akin to Windows Store app dev - I.e. you get a full rich WinRT api (including direct x) but it's still running against a "whitelisted" but extremely comprehensive api subset.

I guess "what does 'full' mean anyway?" is the question

 

[REMEMBER CITADEL]

Have they actually said that - "full access to apis"? Not seen that quote. Personally I've been expecting something akin to Windows Store app dev - I.e. you get a full rich WinRT api (including direct x) but it's still running against a "whitelisted" but extremely comprehensive api subset.

I guess "what does 'full' mean anyway?" is the question

They said everything would be available to all developers, including full Kinect and cloud functionality.

 

[Chobel]

Have they actually said that - "full access to apis"? Not seen that quote. Personally I've been expecting something akin to Windows Store app dev - I.e. you get a full rich WinRT api (including direct x) but it's still running against a "whitelisted" but extremely comprehensive api subset.

I guess "what does 'full' mean anyway?" is the question

Here's quote from Marc Whitten (via Digital Trends)

Our vision is that every person can be a creator. That every Xbox One can be used for development. That every game and experience can take advantage of all of the features of Xbox One and Xbox LIVE. This means self-publishing. This means Kinect, the cloud, achievements. This means great discoverability on Xbox LIVE.

That's why I said it will supposedly will give you full access.

 

[viveks86]

You were just mislead, this is not what Microsoft has said.

MS has stated that they "remain committed to ensuring the best possible solution": That's as close to outright stating "it's cancelled" as it gets; they obviously don't want to outright admit to this fact to avoid negative PR repercussions. Better to never release but not directly admit.

Haha! Thanks! Even as an eternal optimist, that doesn't sound like it's coming anytime in the near future.

Now where the hell is the OP?

 

[ShogunDarius]

Haha! Thanks! Even as an eternal optimist, that doesn't sound like it's coming anytime in the near future.

Now where the hell is the OP?

world cup/asleep

 

[k3rn3ll]

I was in mid post and thought it better to just post them so the dates were there.

You are suggesting an incredibly unlikely scenario? MS's original to allow dev kit functionality requires DRM, MS removes DRM then somehow thinks they can allow dev kit functionality without DRM then no real update on the matter for a year?

I can easily believe the feature might still come but I cannot believe that the hold-up is due to working around problems that arose from removing the DRM of all things.

well since its the same thing happening with other features I can

 

[LukasTaves]

Kevin dent said it will work the same way like Apple app store and Amazon. Every one will has his store, and there's Xbox Store for stuff approved by MS.

But this would segregate Indies, which MS has explicitly said it wouldn't do again.

Unless it's a open store for apps only, them it would be jawesome.

 

[LukasTaves]

XNA gave you limited access to X360 hardware though, Dev-kit functionality supposedly will give you full access to Xbox One hardware/APIs, so not really the same thing.

XNA was also crippled by performance issues, even on the limited access they had.

For instance, you lose a whole core due garbage collecting(360's CPU was crappy for it, so they had to use a whole core), and lack of VMX instructions on the compact framework made Xna extremely low performant on Xenon.

 

[dragonelite]

Dam so there is still a chance..
Hope it really allows native code and just expose the hardware.
Just tinkering with it will be worth getting Visual Studio pro and a dev license($99).
If its restricted as XNA i will probably loose interest will still try to do some herp derp shit.

 

[SPDIF]

The comments today were inaccurate. We remain committed to ensuring the best possible solution for developers and hobbyists to create games for Xbox One. We will share more details at a later date.

Waiting for Threshold.