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[beef3483]

Put me in the group that's happy that Zelda Wii is going to have heavy motion control emphasis.

 

[Jezan]

So you guys basically want a "Master Quest" included with every future Zelda, am I right?

Plus I fucking loved sailing and exploring in Wind Waker, fuck you guys!

I also loved exploring in WW but when you finished one of those island-dungeons and the reward was a rupee.... disappointment!!!

Masks should be Zelda's trophies.

 

[ZAK]

A hard mode would ideally be more than just "enemies do more damage"?

That's fair. I just mean in terms of "crippling oneself," it seems almost identical: knowingly making a choice you know will make the game tougher.

then you have no real reward for winning in the first place. Why would I want to not collect something I was rewarded. This is pretty much impossible for collection freaks out there, and there are a lot of us.

Plus, when your playing the first time, how do you know the game won't get more difficult. The entire (skip all the heart containers) is more of a 2nd playthrough challenge, then a first platythrough experience.

Hey, I'm a collection freak too. I'd say all the Zeldas I've played make collecting everything an unreasonable pain in the ass, but that's another conversation.

Your reward is that you get to continue the game. You also tend to get some story macguffin, no? Link doesn't kill bosses for the hearts.

I do see your point, that on your first playthrough you'd want the "full experience" and that you won't necessarily know what's ahead. Actually, though, the option of the heart containers is pretty flexible: You can always go back and pick them up, and you can stop picking them up if it seems like you're starting to be able to just ignore damage.

I don't mean this very seriously. It just seems like people who seriously have a big problem with the health/damage ratio in TP are just looking for something to complain about. If they really cared that much, you'd think they would think to quit grabbing the health ups halfway through the game. It's a bit like complaining about there being an easy mode, or about being able to grind your way to trivial victory. That's all I'm saying.

 

[rhino4evr]

That's fair. I just mean in terms of "crippling oneself," it seems almost identical: knowingly making a choice you know will make the game tougher.


Hey, I'm a collection freak too. I'd say all the Zeldas I've played make collecting everything an unreasonable pain in the ass, but that's another conversation.

Your reward is that you get to continue the game. You also tend to get some story macguffin, no? Link doesn't kill bosses for the hearts.

I do see your point, that on your first playthrough you'd want the "full experience" and that you won't necessarily know what's ahead. Actually, though, the option of the heart containers is pretty flexible: You can always go back and pick them up, and you can stop picking them up if it seems like you're starting to be able to just ignore damage.

I don't mean this very seriously. It just seems like people who seriously have a big problem with the health/damage ratio in TP are just looking for something to complain about. If they really cared that much, you'd think they would think to quit grabbing the health ups halfway through the game. It's a bit like complaining about there being an easy mode, or about being able to grind your way to trivial victory. That's all I'm saying.

RIGHT..and all I am saying is that if you are going to have 20 heart pickups, make the game harder to reflect them. It's pretty simple stuff. It's game design 101 as far as Im concerned. The old Zelda games did this. I mean you needed all those hearts to defeat the last dungeon. Now not only do you not need them, you don't even need the potions.

I can firmly remember playing the last boss in Zelda 3 with full hearts and 4 potions, and just barely making it out alive.

 

[Llyranor]

'Don't take the heart containers' is a cop-out. Reward is an integral aspect of exploration and progression. It isn't the players' job to self-cripple themselves to make up for the devs' inability to implement proper challenge.

 

[rhino4evr]

'Don't take the heart containers' is a cop-out. Reward is an integral aspect of exploration and progression. It isn't the players' job to self-cripple themselves to make up for the devs' inability to implement proper challenge.

Exactly!

That's like complaining that flying in Mario games makes the level too easy, so you skip the cape power up. The item is their for you to use within the context of the difficulty.

(all though I admit, the Cape did "break" some of the stages in SMW)

 

[Oblivion]

more shitty awful waggle controls, of course

zelda games are not about immersion, or gestural mechanics. get your retard lightsaber sim fantasies outta my zelda, i say, and send that senile boob miyamoto up the river

the controls should be reductive and simple: directions and button presses. combat has never been an interesting aspect of a zelda; even the boss "battles" have abandoned the typical combat for puzzle solutions -- and successfully so. zelda is ultimately about exploration/discovery, environmental puzzle solving, and the larger tracking/collecting metagame. combat is just there for the pacing, really, which is why i didn't mind its utter lack of challenge in wind waker and twilight princess.

oddly, the useless inanity of ph's touch controls were overwhelmed by the shitty dungeon design and uninteresting puzzles, and of course the horrid horrid trial-and-error stealth mechanic

It's just that it doesn't sound too different from Twilight Princess Wii. I'm not a fan of waggle either, but that quote doesn't explain too much anyhow. More importantly, I don't think anyone should be surprised that waggle remains in the next Zelda since TP was pretty successful.

 

[beelzebozo]

uh, how much do we actually KNOW about the structure of the train segments in ST? how it works? does anyone have a story with impressions about how exactly this functions, beyond vagaries about using it to travel and being able to build your own tracks?

anybody have an answer to this?

or is the poor reaction to the train thing just a lot of negative nancyisms?

 

[EmCeeGramr]

anybody have an answer to this?

or is the poor reaction to the train thing just a lot of negative nancyisms?

Unless there's some super-secret 4D aspect of train travel that Nintendo has decided to hide, it looks like you just travel along tracks, toot a horn, and shoot bombs.

 

[Black-Wind]

anybody have an answer to this?

or is the poor reaction to the train thing just a lot of negative nancyisms?

I don't think we know allot about the game . . . and people just assumed that it was PH with a train.

And I bet some of yall who refuse to not take the hearts or do any number of things to make the game harder for you are also gonna bitch about the kind code button . . . cause ya gonna push it because its there. >_>

 

[beelzebozo]

Unless there's some super-secret 4D aspect of train travel that Nintendo has decided to hide, it looks like you just travel along tracks, toot a horn, and shoot bombs.

ok, so nobody really knows. thanks!

 

[EmCeeGramr]

And I bet some of yall who refuse to not take the hearts or do any number of things to make the game harder for you are also gonna bitch about the kind code button . . . cause ya gonna push it because its there. >_>

That's a terrible analogy.

ok, so nobody really knows. thanks!

Look. Beelze. Bozo. Buddy. Bro. Dude.

Do you remember Wind Waker? They showed us a boat. And, well, it was a boat! You could shoot bombs, search for treasure, sail with the wind, teleport. And when the game came out... yep, it was still a boat! Now, I loved the sailing in Wind Waker just like you. But it wasn't a superboat that blew people's minds with some feature that nobody expected.

And in Phantom Hourglass... they showed us a steamboat! It runs on steam, so it didn't need the wind mechanic. And it still shot bombs, and you could still search for treasure. But now you put in a course and it automatically followed it, and you could also customize it with extra parts for more health. And that was it. Nintendo didn't hide anything from us, the boat stayed a boat.

And in Spirit Tracks... well, it's possible that the train only exists for three seconds and for the rest of the game you play on a mechanical flying dragon mount, nobody knows for sure!!! But, I'm just going to go out on a limb here and say that it's just like they've shown us and how people at the shows have played it: it's a train. You choose a track, speed up and slow down and stop and reverse, toot a horn to tell animals to get out of the way, and shoot bombs at enemies. You'll be eventually be able to lay tracks down and probably customize the train! I mean, what else are you expecting here?

 

[Teknoman]

Im just glad that the game is going to be challenging and that the next Wii Zelda will be motion plus focused.

 

[beelzebozo]

i'm saying that the exact structure of how you use the train to get where isn't clear. maybe driving it is completely linear and segmented like you say, and maybe it's not a method of cutting out a connected overworld in which you can walk around and explore in the way that many of you are implying that it is. hey, maybe it IS though, and if the overworld's been replaced by a linear train riding segment, i'll be the first to throw down my hat and stomp on it. but i'm not going to jump to any conclusions just because the game has a train in it.

 

[Black-Wind]

That's a terrible analogy.

I just made a simple connection.

Were you IN that Kind Code thread? That was actually the argument against it . . .that they don't have the will power to not push the button so they don't want the button there in the first place.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

I just made a simple connection.

Were you IN that Kind Code thread? That was actually the argument against it . . .that they don't have the will power to not push the button so they don't want the button there in the first place.

Yeah, no. It's a terrible analogy.

i'm saying that the exact structure of how you use the train to get where isn't clear. maybe driving it is completely linear and segmented like you say, and maybe it's not a method of cutting out a connected overworld in which you can walk around and explore in the way that many of you are implying that it is. hey, maybe it IS though, and if the overworld's been replaced by a linear train riding segment, i'll be the first to throw down my hat and stomp on it. but i'm not going to jump to any conclusions just because the game has a train in it.

Wait, are you trying to say that you think Link will be able to get out of the train in the middle of the land and walk around?

 

[ShockingAlberto]

I don't really care about the train either way, but I do enjoy how much it annoys people. Like, I enjoy it may more than I would whatever alternative mechanic they could have.

 

[rhino4evr]

I just made a simple connection.

Were you IN that Kind Code thread? That was actually the argument against it . . .that they don't have the will power to not push the button so they don't want the button there in the first place.

those people are morons.

Most games have an "easy" difficulty setting, but I would imagine most games don't pick it just because its available unless they want an easier experience.

 

[Black-Wind]

Yeah, no. It's a terrible analogy.

We will see if people who don't go back and replay the games the way Zelda fans seem to love doing ( saying fuck the hearts and crippling their Link as much as they can) also happen to be the ones bitching about how easy the game is because of the button . . .

We will see . . . (strokes Kitten)

those people are morons.

Yes, but that wont stop them from bitching.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

We will see if people who don't go back and replay the games the way Zelda fans seem to love doing ( saying fuck the hearts and crippling their Link as much as they can) also happen to be the ones bitching about how easy the game is because of the button . . .

We will see . . . (strokes Kitten)

I'd say not, because having a button that plays the game for you if you're doing badly isn't the same as eschewing a reward in an attempt to make a game more difficult for reasons more than just having lots of health.

 

[batbeg]

i'm saying that the exact structure of how you use the train to get where isn't clear. maybe driving it is completely linear and segmented like you say, and maybe it's not a method of cutting out a connected overworld in which you can walk around and explore in the way that many of you are implying that it is. hey, maybe it IS though, and if the overworld's been replaced by a linear train riding segment, i'll be the first to throw down my hat and stomp on it. but i'm not going to jump to any conclusions just because the game has a train in it.

Vooks hands-on had this to say..

As the train is on tracks, you don’t control it past the need to switch tracks and select it’s speed (or you can slap it in reverse). Your main concern is with the wildlife that wanders onto the tracks and impedes you on the way to where you are going (the demo provided the train area with no context). Shooting bombs out of the cannon is easy. Just touch to shoot, drag the stylus to move the camera. You can also yank on the train horn to alert people on the tracks (or just to be awesome).

I'm not exactly thrilled to read such a thing, I have to say.

It also really confused me looking for this link; "summer lineup? Where's the one for this winter!!"

 

[lopaz]

i'm saying that the exact structure of how you use the train to get where isn't clear. maybe driving it is completely linear and segmented like you say, and maybe it's not a method of cutting out a connected overworld in which you can walk around and explore in the way that many of you are implying that it is.

That's exactly what the boat was in PH and this seems like the same thing but even more restricted. Just look at the videos, the train goes through masses of empty green with the occasional enemy you have to tap on to get rid of

 

[Black-Wind]

I'd say not, because having a button that plays the game for you if you're doing badly isn't the same as eschewing a reward in an attempt to make a game more difficult for reasons more than just having lots of health.

Both of these have a choice that can be made to either not get a advantage or take it.

Hearing people go "how do you expect me NOT to pick up the heartz!?!?" simply reminds me of those who whined about "how could you expect me NOT to push the button if Im having a hard time with the puzzle!?!?".

But that has been going on for a long time now in some form. I remember a argument some time back about how Midna "holds your hand too much" and someone simply said you can choice to not bring up her hints when you hear her lol like they did.

Some people simply want "hard mode" to FORCE them to play it harder as a sign of some epic prize where as others choose to not collect hearts and use retardedly weak weapons in boss fights to make the game harder for them.

 

[beelzebozo]

Vooks hands-on had this to say..



I'm not exactly thrilled to read such a thing, I have to say.

It also really confused me looking for this link; "summer lineup? Where's the one for this winter!!"

hey, fix your link man. i want to read the impressions. i see that he describes the way the train segments work, but doesn't really discuss in that quote how the train plays into the larger structure of the game (i.e., how much it factors in as a way to get from town to town and what not)

That's exactly what the boat was in PH and this seems like the same thing but even more restricted. Just look at the videos, the train goes through masses of empty green with the occasional enemy you have to tap on to get rid of

"seems" and "is" are two different things. i understand your reservations, but having read nothing that really describes how the whole thing works into the game as a whole, i'm not exactly ready to burn anyone at the stake.

 

[Dr.Hadji]

It also really confused me looking for this link; "summer lineup? Where's the one for this winter!!"

From the land down under?

 

[Oblivion]

Anyone know when the interview will be fully translated?

 

[EmCeeGramr]

hey, fix your link man. i want to read the impressions. i see that he describes the way the train segments work, but doesn't really discuss in that quote how the train plays into the larger structure of the game (i.e., how much it factors in as a way to get from town to town and what not)

poor beelzebozo

poor, poor, beelzebozo


he's going to rip open the game expecting some kind of quantum train and it's just going to be a train that travels amongst town train stations

 

[batbeg]

hey, fix your link man. i want to read the impressions. i see that he describes the way the train segments work, but doesn't really discuss in that quote how the train plays into the larger structure of the game (i.e., how much it factors in as a way to get from town to town and what not)



"seems" and "is" are two different things. i understand your reservations, but having read nothing that really describes how the whole thing works into the game as a whole, i'm not exactly ready to burn anyone at the stake.

Oops, haha, sorry. http://www.vooks.net/story-18592-Hands-on-with-Nintendos-summer-line-up.html He doesn't really describe anything about the train beyond that and a brief mention of it being transportation, though.

 

[beelzebozo]

ha, maybe so. but i'm not going to pretend to know something about a game that i don't, or pass judgment on it, for that matter.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

"sure, perhaps the sun will rise in the east tomorrow. but i don't know that for sure, and neither do you. we'll just have to wait and see."

 

[Llyranor]

Hearing people go "how do you expect me NOT to pick up the heartz!?!?" simply reminds me of those who whined about "how could you expect me NOT to push the button if Im having a hard time with the puzzle!?!?".

Don't be obtuse. Finding heart pieces and other various rewards is an integral part of conveying a proper sense of exploration and progression. They can be a part of adding challenge for those who actively choose to skip on them, but that should be completely separate from other players who just some extra challenge without having to resort to actively avoiding gameplay design elements to compensate for one difficulty level being available to every single player.

More choices, not less.

 

[udivision]

"sure, perhaps the sun will rise in the east tomorrow. but i don't know that for sure, and neither do you. we'll just have to wait and see."

"Well in another few hours, the sun will rise."

 

[beelzebozo]

"sure, perhaps the sun will rise in the east tomorrow. but i don't know that for sure, and neither do you. we'll just have to wait and see."

i read the words, but i see the message hidden in latency: "hello, my name is nancy. things are bad, so bad bad bad."

 

[EmCeeGramr]

Not only that, but Heart Containers used to be an important part of progression: they made sure that even if the player wasn't searching for extra pieces of heart, they would still have enough health to beat the more difficult parts of the game. But when those "more difficult parts" became easy, suddenly there was less meaning to them, and a whole lot less meaning to finding extra heart pieces.

A Zelda game should have an "Easy" or "Normal" difficulty mode that would keep enemies at nearly the same strength throughout the game like in Wind Waker or TP, while the "Hard" mode would have enemies increasingly get deadlier, tougher to kill, and more aggressive or smarter as the game progressed. Not just enemies; they could also make it so that some puzzles are more difficult to solve or secrets that require a higher level of skill to find.

 

[beelzebozo]

tougher puzzles seems more in line with zelda's m.o. as a series to me. it's a thinking man's game, for the most part, and you don't so much out-whack enemies as out-think them. so, extra puzzles would be nice i guess, but the game should really be balanced from square one to be challenging but fair and enjoyable. and it's certainly possible--GALAXY did it just fine.

 

[ZAK]

Don't be obtuse. Finding heart pieces and other various rewards is an integral part of conveying a proper sense of exploration and progression. They can be a part of adding challenge for those who actively choose to skip on them, but that should be completely separate from other players who just some extra challenge without having to resort to actively avoiding gameplay design elements to compensate for one difficulty level being available to every single player.

More choices, not less.

The "exploration and progression" isn't making much sense to me. You don't feel like you've progressed after you beat a boss without getting the heart container? Really? And I don't see how exploration connects at all. You have to explore to find the boss; beating him is a whole other thing. I don't think anybody's saying that if you find a secret cave, get all the way to the end and find a piece of heart, you should just turn around and leave without grabbing it. But, I find it hard to believe you really wouldn't find the boss satisfying unless you got the heart container afterwards.

And you could just as well argue that you are in fact actively making Link tougher by taking a heart container.

See how I worded that? I'm not saying you're wrong, but I see the merit in either position. Yeah, the combat difficulty in a Zelda game should probably be better implemented. I'll even go back a bit on what I wrote earlier and admit that honestly, even if it were bothering me and I hadn't already read to do so, I probably wouldn't have thought of skipping the heart containers. It's not a perfect system, but I wouldn't say it's a complete failure either.

Or maybe they didn't mean for that at all and instead just intentionally made the health hard to whittle down. Who knows?

 

[Cygnus X-1]

I was just wondering where this thread was. This doesn't tell us much more anyway. Just that Link will effectively have a sword, contrary to a previous, post-E3 discussion.

 

[sinxtanx]

I just realized

the titular SPIRIT TRACKS... are the tracks that you lay yourself.

oh shit they are going to glitter aren't they you know they're going to glitter being spiritual and all

I hope some sidequest will incorporate other trains and how fast they can get to their destinations depending on where you lay spirit tracks and you become responsible for infrastructure and travel and trading between cities and suddenly disaster strikes when some trains collide because of your stupid track layout

cue court suit minigame - Link vs. Victim of horrible train incident

 

[radioheadrule83]

I just realized

the titular SPIRIT TRACKS... are the tracks that you lay yourself.

oh shit they are going to glitter aren't they you know they're going to glitter being spiritual and all

I hope some sidequest will incorporate other trains and how fast they can get to their destinations depending on where you lay spirit tracks and you become responsible for infrastructure and travel and trading between cities and suddenly disaster strikes when some trains collide because of your stupid track layout

cue court suit minigame - Link vs. Victim of horrible train incident

I believe the title not only references links ability to build actual tracks around Hyrule but also his ability to control certain enemies -- placing their spirit(s) on tracks if you will.

I want more media of this game soon!

 

[pulga]

Anyone else been playing Brutal Legend and thinking EAD should borrow some ideas from Double Fine? I'm currently having WAY much more fun exploring BL's overworld than I ever did with TP.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Not only that, but Heart Containers used to be an important part of progression: they made sure that even if the player wasn't searching for extra pieces of heart, they would still have enough health to beat the more difficult parts of the game. But when those "more difficult parts" became easy, suddenly there was less meaning to them, and a whole lot less meaning to finding extra heart pieces.

A Zelda game should have an "Easy" or "Normal" difficulty mode that would keep enemies at nearly the same strength throughout the game like in Wind Waker or TP, while the "Hard" mode would have enemies increasingly get deadlier, tougher to kill, and more aggressive or smarter as the game progressed. Not just enemies; they could also make it so that some puzzles are more difficult to solve or secrets that require a higher level of skill to find.

This would be greatly in line with Nintendo's history of selectable difficulty levels

 

[GeneralIroh]

The sailboat was infinitely preferable in Wind Waker than in Phantom Hourglass, the problem that Wind Waker had with overworld mechanics was that there wasn't much going on from point A to B, even if the visuals of the trip were fucking incredible looking. It would've helped if they didn't segment the map into little squares, one island per square, but yeah I realize they did that due to technical limitations.

a.k.a: both sailing systems had flaws, it's just that PH was much more flawed.

That is the real reason why I hated TWW's overworld and I just don't get the exploration praise. Sure its open but it feels very artificial. Most of the islands felt like they were ctrl + V on checkerboards. Graphics were pretty but the bland design of the overworld made the journey extremely boring.

For some reason I enjoyed TP's overworld more. I guess its because it had more variety in terms of the type of climate, environment and the way you can move around.

I really want the next zelda to bring more focus to the npcs like in MM.
Other games nintendo should study are Mount & Blade (loot system and the variety of clothes, items and weapons) and Demon Soul (competent difficulty and combat system).

 

[HylianScribe]

This would be greatly in line with Nintendo's history of selectable difficulty levels

I submit Ocarina of Time as "Easy" and "Normal" modes, and Master Quest as "Hard". Think about it - same game, but different dungeon interiors. That would be awesome.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

This would be greatly in line with Nintendo's history of selectable difficulty levels

Well if Nintendo doesn't historically do something, it must be bad to want it.

 

[Anth0ny]

Well if Nintendo doesn't historically do something, it must be bad to want it.

Bad? No.

Useless because Nintendo is lame like that? Yeah :lol

 

[wRATH2x]

I'd go as far to say that Wind Waker had the best overworld out of the 3D Zelda's. Yes I'm serious.

 

[mugwhump]

I actually played TP with an Action Replay code that made you take 3x the damage (and one that gave you a button shortcut for wolf transformations), and it was FUKKEN AWESOME. I actually had to be careful with enemies and stock up on potions/fairies. Considering it would take Nintendo's programmers like 5 minutes of work, there's not much excuse for them to leave hard mode out- even if it's nothing but damage scaling.

For the 'not picking up hearts' thing, I see it like this. There's 2 kinds of hearts:
1)boss hearts
2)heart pieces from doing sidequests and mini-dungeons and shit

I don't mind skipping out on the first kind, cuz I've got to beat the bosses anyway, though it'd be nice if the game challenged me enough that I actually wanted them. If I skip the second kind, though, there's no reason for me to do all those fun sidequests.

Anyone know if there's difficulty codes for Gecko, for the Wii version? The AR codes I was using for the GC version froze the game whenever arrows spawned

Maybe it has been said already. But I think the IR pointer was not only used for the bow in TP, but for all motion gameplay. Isn't it the case that the sensor bar can determine what movement you are doing by sensing the begin state of the controller (through IR pointing) and the end state, in combination with the accelerators (when does it begin moving, when does it end, and how fast was the movement)? Assuming this is indeed true, then it would mean that it would not just use the IR pointer for motion, but motion+ because that can sense precise movement in 3D space without having to use the IR pointer. In other words, maybe he wasn't talking (solely?) about the bow and arrow mechanic.

Wat? No, that's not the case. That's completely wrong lol. Using the sensor to guess the position of the wiimote would have like a... 4 ft. margin of error. Well, I just made that up, but it's too inaccurate to be remotely useful. No, the motion stuff in TP was accelerometers only.

 

[BorkBork]

I would love for them to revisit the sailing mechanic, because to me sailing is the pinnacle of adventuring and fits really well into the Zelda universe. I actually quite liked the scale of TWW's overworld too, but they just needed more stuff to DO on the way. I don't want to hold A and go watch TV for 10 minutes. Give me bigger islands, more random events and rewarding sidequests (treasure hunting mechanic wasn't that great), more variety of sea monster fights, more ghost ships, quicker wind adjustments, and maybe some actual fucking fishing.

I think I've reading too much Earthsea, because that world would gel so well with the above concept. Central islands with lots of big cities and harbours, to the East, desserts with barbarians, to the west, sail through the Dragon's run, full of dragons and dangerous reefs. Visit islands with jungles and savages. Encounter a raft city on the open sea and follow the whales. Get shipwrecked on tiny spits of lands. Sail to the end of the world, to the last lands and beyond, to the dry land of death. Fighting shadows on solid illusions in the middle of the open ocean.

Damn. That would be so awesome.

 

[iamaustrian]

i'm really not into the idea of playing with wii motion plus for 40+ hours.

what's the problem? I played TP for over 8 hours every day laying on my couch and had no problems doing that. NO, my hands or wrists did not hurt afterwards(but I am part time construction worker, so my hands are probably used to this).
I can't see new Zeldas motion controls any different

 

[thefro]

Yeah, after finally playing Wii Sports resort, I'm really excited about the potential for the controls.

IMHO, the swordfighting in WSR is already a lot deeper than Zelda's.