Twilight Princess was the highest rated game of 2006, it was voted Game of the Year on these very forums, and it is the best selling Zelda game since Ocarina of Time. The vast majority of the gaming population loves the game, and rightfully so. The haters (as usual) are part of a vocal minority. Pay no attention to them. Twilight Princess was awesome.
I suggest that all threads related to Zelda from now on replace the word 'Zelda' with 'Melodrama' in the thread title. It would make the thread more representative of the discussion taking place within.
I suggest that all threads related to Zelda from now on replace the word 'Zelda' with 'Melodrama' in the thread title. It would make the thread more representative of the discussion taking place within.
You know, I've been categorized as a "hater" because I think games like TP and PH had a slew of obvious and easily remediable problems that dragged them down. I've carefully explained my opinions and how I came to them many times, and resent being told to fuck off every Zelda thread just because I wasn't completely enamored with the game. It's sad because some of the people pulling this bullshit are otherwise good users.
LegendofJoe said:
I suggest that all threads related to Zelda from now on replace the word 'Zelda' with 'Melodrama' in the thread title. It would make the thread more representative of the discussion taking place within.
Sometimes, they don't need to evolve anything, they just need to refine it.
I think part of the reason that TP got so much flak was because it wasn't either, though.
It was simply an extension of OoT.
The Zelda cliches are overdone and tired. There are only so many times you can do the same things, in the same enviroments, with the same characters and the same items slightly differently. Okami, while it's very derivative, is an unimaginative example of what I'm thinking of. People want sequels because they know if they liked X they will probably like X2, but when X12 is largely the same as most of the prior ones, it's a waste of everyone's time. Final Fantasy is the best gaming example of what I'm thinking of, where people follow the Final Fantasy series, but it's also completely free to change with the times. An author with a distinctive style would be another.
I really feel that recent Zelda games have been incredible excercises in haemorrhaging time and talent (after MM, and certainly WW Aonuma should've been allowed to move on).
Tangentially, I would also be in favour of shorter, tighter, less drawn out and more frequent titles, something Nintendo could never "get away with" in a mainline Zelda game.
Yes, but with the budget, marketing, and most importantly team of a full Zelda title.
As a final note I have a theory that the reason most people clamor for sequels, prequels, remakes etc etc is that they are something we can actually picture and think about. Nobody knows or cares what the hell a team Zelda game that isn't Zelda could be (or Director X's Untitled Project 2010), but we can discuss and think up cool scenarios for a new Batman game, or an Alien prequel or a console sequel to WindWaker with orchestrated music etc.
Sometimes, they don't need to evolve anything, they just need to refine it.
I think part of the reason that TP got so much flak was because it wasn't either, though.
It was simply an extension of OoT.
Adventures had nothing to do with evolving StarFox gameplay. It was an interesting game with a troubled development delayed to Gamecube, kiddified and horribly horribly shoe-horned with the StarFox IP.
Do everything in the same way as Twilight Princess and pack a dual layer DVD to the brim with many meticulously crafted locales, orchestral pieces, dungeons, and sidequests, perhaps a new setting and story, and you have the perfect followup. It seems pretty straightforward to me. Hopefully Motion+ doesn't get in the way.
Do everything in the same way as Twilight Princess and pack a dual layer DVD to the brim with many meticulously crafted locales, orchestral pieces, dungeons, and sidequests, perhaps a new setting and story, and you have the perfect followup. It seems pretty straightforward to me. Hopefully Motion+ doesn't get in the way.
I don't know if you're serious, but this is pretty much what I'm completely against. They can't keep doing this, it makes no sense
(from frequent comments Miyamoto is clearly fully aware, and his willingness to change and refresh is one of his defining traits as a designer but even then, Zelda is probably the series he indulges the "hardcore" fans most on).
Sure, you can say all that in one damn sentence, but the time and effort that went in Twilight Princess was absolutely enormous. AND "all" they got out was a passable Zelda game with flashes of brilliance, that 5% of players finished (according to Nintendo). A game that is destined to be seen as a minor entry in the series.
You might as well say: "Make a perfect Zelda game that lasts 100 hours. Seems straightforward to me". :lol
::Ed - You've got a Doctor Who avatar, probably a posterboy to the power of change in keeping things fresh. First, and most relevantly, in having a complete leadership/production revamp every few years (damn excited for next year), but also in a scenario/setting/tonal/writer one every single episode. Imagine if every episode was the Doctor travelling back to medieval times and saving the companion from the Master, with slight variations.
Certainly RTD, and the Daleks have been become increasingly tiresome, but next year will reinvigorate everything! I do hate analogies though, they're always a bit muddled.
Most of the sports we play have had minimal, if any change in thousands of years. An author can get away with writing and rewriting the same book for most of their career. And the longer a tv show runs, the more likely it is to fail if you change anything than it is if you leave it the way it is. People can do the exact same thing over and over again and enjoy it very much. Retreading old ground is a surer path to success than branching out to something new.
Rustymonke said:
::Ed - You've got a Doctor Who avatar, probably a posterboy to the power of sweeping changes in keeping things fresh. Both in a complete leadership/production side every few years (damn excited for next year), and in a scenario/setting/tonal/writer one every single episode.
The advantage of Dr. Who is that it was never constant. Much like Final Fantasy, every episode was an experiment in doing something new. People are fine with change when change is the constant.
But yes, I'm also looking forward to next year, and the last few specials this year.
You know, I've been categorized as a "hater" because I think games like TP and PH had a slew of obvious and easily remediable problems that dragged them down. I've carefully explained my opinions and how I came to them many times, and resent being told to fuck off every Zelda thread just because I wasn't completely enamored with the game. It's sad because some of the people pulling this bullshit are otherwise good users.
If you think stylus controls are a problem in PH you are a hater because they work excellently and reliably and no, having the option for buttons would be stupid because there's nothing that could be done with buttons that can't be reproduced flawlessly with the stylus controls
If you think stylus controls are a problem in PH you are a hater because they work excellently and reliably and no, having the option for buttons would be stupid because there's nothing that could be done with buttons that can't be reproduced flawlessly with the stylus controls
If you think stylus controls are a problem in PH you are a hater because they work excellently and reliably and no, having the option for buttons would be stupid because there's nothing that could be done with buttons that can't be reproduced flawlessly with the stylus controls
Twilight Princess was the highest rated game of 2006, it was voted Game of the Year on these very forums, and it is the best selling Zelda game since Ocarina of Time. The vast majority of the gaming population loves the game, and rightfully so. The haters (as usual) are part of a vocal minority. Pay no attention to them. Twilight Princess was awesome.
Miyamoto starts the hype for spirit tracks.:lol I think some people are looking too much into what he said about wii zelda; can't wait till we get a classic wii commercial for zelda that shows someone standing up in front of a couch with a clean white background making sword swooshing motions, then goes to some game footage than back to the player with a big smile on his face because of how fun he/she is having kicking ass with teh motion plus link control.
Taking this at face value, which is a stretch, no one has ever played or watched any sport for more than 80 or so years (which is also irrelevant anyway). Analogies suck, but I'll play ball. Sports have new stories and new characters every single year! The rules are the gameplay, something you can grasp on to, and not knowing what to expect is the fun and excitement.
An author can get away with writing and rewriting the same book for most of their career.
Good for them. I'm really arguing a view for what is 'best', and not a populist, what do more people feel safe in buying. Good authors have an identifiable, lovable style with which they write interesting and varied books.
And the longer a tv show runs, the more likely it is to fail if you change anything than it is if you leave it the way it is.
Doctor Who.
However, I understand what you're saying about change being constant. It is all about expectation, and that's why the only way I can see Nintendo ever making drastic changes to the Zelda formula is under a new name. If they could release one every year and a half, perhaps with a signifier like Pixel Junk, and regularly state that they have no current plans for more main Zelda titles, people could grow to love these spiritual successors (MM is something that fits my thoughts rather well).
However, I see the main problem with shows having a big, late change in direction, is that they're usually drastic poorly thought out attempts to save a flagging show or a victim of the apple cart being tossed by a star or producer leaving.
Lost is another show that very effectively changed its format a lot in the last 2 seasons, after woefully under delivering by giving more of the same in seasons two and three. Had you asked someone 4 years ago whether a season essentially about time travel was a good idea, that would have laughed in your face (they also brought in new characters regularly).
People can do the exact same thing over and over again and enjoy it very much. Retreading old ground is a surer path to success than branching out to something new.
Retreading old ground is certainly a surer ground to some success, but the blue ocean teases the possibility of even greater success (the diminishing returns of the Zelda franchise and the explosion of the Wii testify this).
I'm not going to pretend I have all the answers, but I think this is stuff worth thinking about. I strongly believe a video game landscape not dominated by sequels is worth striving for.
I'm tired. I need sleep. And Nintendo doesn't give two shits what I type on some message board anyway!
AceBandage said:
As Fry once said: "People don't want new and exciting. They want old and predictable."
Glad something big is using WM+. At least I'll feel like getting the peripheral wasn't a waste (unless it gets bundled with the game, then I'll be pissed).
Am I alone in being interested in a first person Zelda? People were skeptical of Prime, but that turned out terrifically. I think it would be an interesting direction for the series, and it would make Motionplus just a bit easier for people to wrap their heads around.
Miyamoto has wanted to do a first-person Zelda game ever since he was designing OoT, right? It'll probably happen sometime... and yeah, it definitely could work. A lot of people were skeptical about Metroid Prime but it ended up as one of the Gamecube's best games (I know a few people disliked it, but sorry, this is the general and critical opinion on it, and it is certainly mine. Metroid Prime is a truly exceptional game!). First person Zelda should also be possible just as great.
... Overall I'd probably rather see it stay third person, I think the series works very, very well that way, but they certainly could do a good first person one if they tried, that's all I'm saying.
Oh, and Twilight Princess was amazing. Seriously flawed, weak story, but amazing gameplay and dungeons... it just has such stunning epic scope. It's not better than OoT, certainly, but it's very, very good. WW may have had a better story, but it sure doesn't match TP in gameplay or dungeons, so overall I like TP more. For quite a while I said that they're tied, but... really, I think I like TP more.
As for Zelda Spirit Tracks, yeah, we'll have to wait and see what he means by "hard". I DID like Phantom Hourglass's design and controls. The controls were fantastic, the touchscreen is a natural way to control a game like top-down Zelda. The '2.5d'-ish nature of the gameworld was pretty cool as well, it fit the game well. The downsides were that it just had an absolutely terrible story (the worst one in any Zelda game since the Oracles games, to the point where seeing it actually raised my opinion of TP's story, because TP's story looked great compared to this...) and was way too easy everywhere apart from in the main dungeon. The other dungeons were painfully easy... Having to go back to the main dungeon a bunch of times didn't bother me, you went farther in every time and there was a midway warp, so it was always changing. It's good to hear that this'll be somewhat harder, at least, it should make it a better game than PH, which means that hopefully it'll be pretty good. I haven't been paying close attention to the game, but I'm sure I'll get it at least, and it'll probably be fun.
However, I understand what you're saying about change being constant. It is all about expectation, and that's why the only way I can see Nintendo ever making drastic changes to the Zelda formula is under a new name. If they could release one every year and a half, perhaps with a signifier like Pixel Junk, and regularly state that they have no current plans for more main Zelda titles, people could grow to love these spiritual successors (MM is something that fits my thoughts rather well).
Alternately, they could do just that, and still continue making Zelda. If they're going to have to make a new franchise anyway, why should they forgo making games that will continue to sell? And once those games no longer sell, they have a new franchise that is already being made.
Lost is another show that very effectively changed its format a lot in the last 2 seasons, after woefully under delivering by giving more of the same in seasons two and three. Had you asked someone 4 years ago whether a season essentially about time travel was a good idea, that would have laughed in your face (they also brought in new characters regularly).
I stopped watching Lost because it only has two formats. Meandering senselessness or quick burst action. And 80% of the episodes of any season are meandering senselessness. I don't feel qualified to make any statements about the viability of change in the story when I can't get past the presentation.
Yeah I dunno why they'd do first-person. WSR archery and sword-fightan were both over the shoulder... I'm thinking they'll stick with 3rd person, then go over-the-shoulder for combat.
I wonder if we'll still be able to do backflips with M+ combat? Gratuitous backflips are my favorite part of zelda fighting
Or because it was just too OoT'ish or it was not OoT'ish enough. Some people can't decide anymore if they want a Zelda that is too similar to OoT or not :S
Yeah I dunno why they'd do first-person. WSR archery and sword-fightan were both over the shoulder... I'm thinking they'll stick with 3rd person, then go over-the-shoulder for combat.
I wonder if we'll still be able to do backflips with M+ combat? Gratuitous backflips are my favorite part of zelda fighting
The sword portion from Wii sports resort was really fun. I think it would be perfect for the next zelda except for the whole transparent character thing.
From the sound of it Zelda Wii will be the first one I'll skip.
I was sort of expecting this. Zelda has gone downhill for me lately - Twilight Princess was the first boring one I ever played and I didn't even finish Phantom Hourglass.
Probably. Even with it's problems it's a fantastic game. I know a couple of people who have sold their Wii's due to having no interest in the games (at the time) and generally disliking the system's controls and lack of HD, yet at the same time picked the system up at launch for Zelda and absolutely loved the game.
yep. the stylus controls were kind of exciting, i liked the idea of making my own maps, plotting the boomerangs course... etc... the level design was just fucking boring and playing the game mostly felt like a chore.
yep. the stylus controls were kind of exciting, i liked the idea of making my own maps, plotting the boomerangs course... etc... the level design was just fucking boring and playing the game mostly felt like a chore.
So it begins, Twilight Princess is now getting a lot of love. Soon Zelda Wii will be considered shit since it was nowhere near the awesomeness that was Twilight Princess, and then the cycle starts again.:lol
I loved Twilight Princess since it's release by the way.
Twilight Princess is rad, true. One of the best Zelda games. The clumsy and empty overworld was the only problem I had with it. wasn't very fun to get to the places I had to go.
I'm pretty hyped for ST. I hope they expanded upon PH and gone wild with the item selection. The Miyamoto quotes encourage me to believe that they made some pretty creative items. I thought the touch controlled items in PH worked well but they were missing in creativity.
