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Miyamoto throwing shade at casual gamers

Paskil

Member
While I agree with the general sentiment, I don't really think that Nintendo is in a place where they should be alienating/insulting customers, potential or not.

Insulting a mom or dad that casually plays phone games might just result in them buying a PS4 or XB1 for their kid instead of a WiiU.
 
About the first quote: alas, I see plenty of "core" gamers that are just like that. They'd enjoy some great games, but prefer to stay in their nice lil' bubble. They prefer to keep playing the same games without trying anything new or even slightly different. They have an extremely passive attitude toward games, not making any efforts at all.

Just check out this month's PS Plus thread!
 
Miyamoto mad cuz the casuals left him. Sorta tells you how much Nintendo lived in a bubble not reading market trends and the general shift of the non-gaming audience to mobiles. The switch happened long before the WIi U came out. Those people only want distraction and the Wii provided that for a couple years. Miyamoto should've realized this 3 years ago.

Ignoring market trends also led to the Wii so not sure this statement holds too much weight...

Insulting a mom or dad that casually plays phone games might just result in them buying a PS4 or XB1 for their kid instead of a WiiU.

Because there are so many of them who read Edge...
 
I...don't see how this is pathetic at all? I'm dropping $50 to $60 on your game; You're goddamn right you're supposed to entertain me.

It seems more like he's saying that a lot of casual (I know that's a loaded term with lots of different interpretations, so don't skewer me) players don't really get engaged and gravitate towards shallower pick-up-and-play experiences. They're approaching the game looking for a neat timekiller, and not necessarily anything else. There's nothing wrong with that, but I can understand why, as a developer, Miyamoto is frustrated that that crowd wont take a step or two further and dig into the deeper games.
 
tumblr_m8x1gyuEIB1rwnp75o1_400.gif
 

Dunlop

Member
So who exactly is their audience now?

They have pretty much alienated everyone, even getting back the hardcore would not sell enough consoles to be viable
 

SegaShack

Member
This is from the same company that had the option for games to play themselves if it's too hard and put a DVD with one of their games to explain how to play.
 
Haha.. in that case, what is the PS4? Hardest Core?

Meh I put quotes around hardcore for a reason. It's a stupid term that gained traction in the PS3/360 age. The Wii U has clearly been focused on core gamers since the beginning. At least Nintendo core gamers or whatever. I remember when FPS and the like we're considered casual but things change apparently.
 

Mpl90

Two copies sold? That's not a bomb guys, stop trolling!!!
Mmmh...we need contexts and bigger parts from the original article. Just to have a clear idea of what he's saying.
 

Sandfox

Member
Ok, but who will they target? They won't get core gamers back without massive changes to the brand and types of games they produce and they've failed at growing the kid and casual markets. So who?

I don't think they know the answer any more than you or I do.

They will either change themselves and make core games, or they'll go after families with a better product than the Wii U. I'm expecting the latter.

Yes, but when they go to their gamer friend for advice on buying a system for their kid? The internet doesn't forget or forgive.

The chances of something like that happening seem impossibly low and I really doubt the parents or the friend would really care.
 
Mmm, I disagree. They were convinced you need to create those games to create NEW customers and that the industry couldn't expand if it was just the current customers. They're thinking was that as games and consoles got more complex, the barrier to entry naturally got higher and they needed a way to ease in new people.

Regardless, despite what people in this thread keep saying, it was never their main focus. Simply listing their "causal" and more traditional games for the Wii would show that the traditional titles far outnumbered the casual ones

I don't think we disagree as much as you think we do. If you aren't bringing in new people to play your more complex games, you are eventually going to run out of people. Hence, my point about the audience eventually drying up.

I also agree that it definitely wasn't their main focus. But given that it didn't really wind up bieng their main focus on Wii (and continues to not be their focus at all on Wii U), I don't see why they're so bitter about the audience not coming back.

Typically one would think the biggest audience would actually be treated like the core audience. To use a historical example, games like SMB and Zelda, which were the biggest hits on NES, became Nintendo's "core" titles, despite being the relative equivalent of "casual games" compared to other titles on the market at the time. That didn't mean other, more "hardcore" titles weren't being made - it just meant that they weren't the all-important flagship games.

After 2009, Nintendo didn't really put forth any effort to treat what should have been their new "core audience" like a flagship audience. The "Wii series" games on Wii U were all given mostly quiet releases and used as test cases for new business models (Wii Sports Club, Wii Fit U) and bad marketing campaigns (Wii Party U). NSMBU had relatively little effort put into it relative to SM3DW.

So, yeah, why would those "casuals" come back? Nothing was done to convince them that Nintendo actually values the kinds of games they choose to play.

It'd be like Nintendo suddenly not treating Mario games like a flagship franchise anymore and instead releasing different kinds of games that happen to use some characters and ideas from the series.

Oh wait, that actually happened with the disappearance of new 2D Mario games for almost 15 years.

Nah, I think he's saying mobile gaming is doing that for them now.

Because, of course, mobile gaming has caused a massive number of people to buy Nintendo systems who wouldn't otherwise, and has allowed a large number of console and handheld games to flourish far beyond their previous potential. We haven't seen exactly the opposite, where the audience is shrinking and becoming less profitable.

(sarcasm btw)
 

RMI

Banned
Miyamoto mad cuz the casuals left him. Sorta tells you how much Nintendo lived in a bubble not reading market trends and the general shift of the non-gaming audience to mobiles. The switch happened long before the WIi U came out. Those people only want distraction and the Wii provided that for a couple years. Miyamoto should've realized this 3 years ago.

Didn't Nintendo realize this though? Wasn't the Wii U specifically marketed as a return to hardcore console gaming, with all the unprecedented 3rd party partnership that entails? Also, isn't it just about the nichiest home console you can get now? My observation is that casuals are definitely not buying the Wii U, and that most Wii U owners are actually pretty hardcore gamers who need (just fucking NEED) to have access to those Nintendo exclusives. It turns out there aren't too many of them, which sucks for Nintendo though.
 
That feels kind of expected. The casual audience he mentions are hard to maintain and can be very fickle. I mean, flappy bird happened.
 

Nanashrew

Banned
I don't think there's anything hypocritical here. Nintendo's "blue ocean" efforts have been stereotyped by bitter gamers as Nintendo pandering to icky non-gamers with icky non-games.

But compared to a lot of fare on mobile, Nintendo's expanded audience games are masterpieces. They didn't generally make crap games; even Wii Sports is an excellent arcade sports title that can be played "hardcore". Something Nintendo has been consistent about is the idea of bridge games. People who didn't think games were for them could get into stuff like Mario Kart and keep on moving upward. Nintendo's Wii stuff was never truly about pandering only to people who would just play Angry Birds and then never touch another gamelike application again.

What is interesting though, is the usually closed-faced Miyamoto being so blunt about his dissatisfaction with their efforts. I wonder at the translation of "pathetic" but there doesn't seem to be many ways to spin this.



Mario Kart is pretty much the definition of an all-ages, all-demographics game. Those are the kinds of games Nintendo is great at making. A lot of people seem to confuse those for "casual" games.

I agree with all of this. You continue to be one of my favorite posters here.
 

Fj0823

Member
....He sounds like he just went through a breakup with the casual audience and is not taking it very well.

Oh wait, that's exactly what happened...

Glad hes now focusing on gamers, Wii U needs it.
 
People are setting themselves up for disappointment if they think Nintendo is going to release an equivalent console as the other two in the next generation.
 

axisofweevils

Holy crap! Today's real megaton is that more than two people can have the same first name.
Haha.. in that case, what is the PS4? Hardest Core?



I honestly don't get this.

It has dual sticks - clickable ones so you can crouch in military shooters, even. That's a world away from the simplicity of the Wiimote.
 
Meh I put quotes around hardcore for a reason. It's a stupid term that gained traction in the PS3/360 age. The Wii U has clearly been focused on core gamers since the beginning. At least Nintendo core gamers or whatever. I remember when FPS and the like we're considered casual but things change apparently.

Like another poster has shown with the WiiU promotional campaign, this is false.

The Wii-U's gamepad also tells another story. It is obviously designed to appeal to families.

I'm still interested in buying a Wii-U if they release one without the Gamepad. So hopefully that comes from this.
 

Percy

Banned
Hmmm... if that is what he's saying there then that's actually kind of shitty as the more 'casual' audience is basically the only reason they're still around today most likely.

Imagine if 'casuals' never bought Nintendo handhelds for instance... Honestly, who is Shigsy playing to with these comments?
 

spekkeh

Banned
I don't think there's anything hypocritical here. Nintendo's "blue ocean" efforts have been stereotyped by bitter gamers as Nintendo pandering to icky non-gamers with icky non-games.

But compared to a lot of fare on mobile, Nintendo's expanded audience games are masterpieces. They didn't generally make crap games; even Wii Sports is an excellent arcade sports title that can be played "hardcore". Something Nintendo has been consistent about is the idea of bridge games. People who didn't think games were for them could get into stuff like Mario Kart and keep on moving upward. Nintendo's Wii stuff was never truly about pandering only to people who would just play Angry Birds and then never touch another gamelike application again.

What is interesting though, is the usually closed-faced Miyamoto being so blunt about his dissatisfaction with their efforts. I wonder at the translation of "pathetic" but there doesn't seem to be many ways to spin this.



Mario Kart is pretty much the definition of an all-ages, all-demographics game. Those are the kinds of games Nintendo is great at making. A lot of people seem to confuse those for "casual" games.
Yeah I just read it as that he doesn't like time waste games, and he doesn't like the apathetic attitude of people that approach games as casual time wasters. It's him lashing out against mobile games, as he always has. He recognizes they have a place, and that Nintendo doesn't have a place there. The whole thing is aimed at the shareholders most likely. This doesn't seem to be a real deviation from Nintendo's current line.
 

Nibel

Member
People are setting themselves up for disappointment if they think Nintendo is going to release an equivalent console as the other two in the next generation.

He is not talking about hardware power but game design, not sure how anyone would come to that conclusion.
 

Devil

Member
The handful of people who will buy Nintendo's next console after witnessing the horror that was Wii U.

I have no idea what you're talking about in this thread. Did you ever own a Wii U? It seems to me comments like this are usually from people who haven't "witnessed" shit but keep talking about it anyway. If Nintendo keeps doing what they've been doing with their 1st party software for the Wii U and back off even more from those Wii days, there is no way in hell I wouldn't buy the next Nintendo console.
 

Mlatador

Banned
Problem with casual gamers is, they are not really interested in your product. They don't consume video game news. They loose interest very fast, because they are not really interested in trying out more complex games.

It's really hard to reach such a group of people with marketing. During the Wii era, I bet lots of them didn't even know that the Wii was made by Nintendo.
 

Rolodzeo

Member
A little bit harsh. Everyone start their gaming hobby as a casual, it's a necessary step and many people find that passive attitude very comfortable and, well, entertaining. Not everyone need to play Dark Souls nor they'll enjoy it. I don't think that calling that kind of public pathetic is the best idea.
 

Paskil

Member
"Shigeki Matsumoto said what about us?! Well, no Nintendo for little Timmy! He's getting a Sony Xbox!"

I'm not saying it's a serious offense or that it will suddenly cause their unit sales to decrease drastically. There's no need to go out and bow for forgiveness or anything. Essentially though, it's best to keep things like this to yourself when your brand is in a seemingly endless sales downward spiral.
 
In an age where Apple and Android smartphones have become the leading games platforms for the casual audience, Miyamoto says Nintendo no longer needs to reach out to those customers.

"In the days of DS and Wii, Nintendo tried its best to expand the gaming population," he said.

"Fortunately, because of the spread of smart devices, people take games for granted now. It's a good thing for us, because we do not have to worry about making games something that are relevant to general people's daily lives."

Interesting that he decided to say that when they're going to be introducing QOL very soon.

This doesn't give me confidence they'll take that venture as seriously as they need to.
 
Glad hes now focusing on gamers, Wii U needs it.

They've been focusing on gamers literally from the moment Wii U launched. Nintendo Land wasn't going to sell to people who weren't previously interested in Nintendo. Why would they give a crap about mini-games that borrow from Nintendo universes?
 

Not

Banned
While I agree with the general sentiment, I don't really think that Nintendo is in a place where they should be alienating/insulting customers, potential or not.

Insulting a mom or dad that casually plays phone games might just result in them buying a PS4 or XB1 for their kid instead of a WiiU.

Yeah, because those consoles are so heavily marketed towards children
 
It sounds more like he's "throwing shade" at content-tourists.

This. People misuse the word casual. A "casual" game like Wii Sports is more like an old school arcade game. The input method maybe simplified, but the experience is straight up game play.

Shiggy was talking about gamers who sit back and watch the game play itself on Easy mode. And the designers who build the games around that Easy mode and impose arbitrary challenge in Hard mode. He's saying it's "pathetic" that those games derive their value from passive elements like lengthy cut scenes, set pieces, and graphical spectacle instead of game play. I agree. If you want to watch a movie, than watch a movie.

There was a whole thread on BioShock 1 vs. 2 yesterday where some people were saying things to the extent of "the only area where BS 2 is better is game play. Other than that BS 1 shits all over BS 2". That's the kind of gamer Shiggy is calling "pathetic".
 

Ninjimbo

Member
Wow at Miyamoto. But let's not forget Nintendo is devoting a good pitch at QoL and non-gamers. Although, I think it's more like let's make interesting apps and entertainment rather than shallow easy entry games.
This is what I got as well. It honestly feels like that's been the case for a few years now, at least that's the feeling I get from the games they've released.
 
This was the Wii U's launch commercial

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7dbGJieRaH0

What about that says hardcore to you?

Nintendoland and NSMBU were the primary games shown in that commercial. Yes, the singing game is casual by whatever meaning that has on this forum, but the day games like Nintendoland and NSMBU are considered casual and not 'core' games is an incredibly sad day. I may not enjoy 2D platformers that much anymore but those two games are what games should be in their purest sense. All about the gameplay. It's core as it gets. Nintendo has followed up the Wii U launch with games like 3D world, wonderful 101, pikmin 3, and they are publishing Bayonetta 2. Actions speak louder than words, and Nintendo has clearly had a different focus with the Wii U than the Wii. It's the same reason I will already own as many Wii U games as I do Wii games by the end of the year. Their focus is back to the way it used to be.
 

PVR

Member
Wow.

You'd think after three years of disappointing sales, Miyamoto would have a less dismissive attitude toward making products that are relevant to consumers' lives.

I sense a lot of annoyance that consumers didn't support them when they ditched all the stuff that helped them reach those consumers in the first place.

You are the entertainer. It is your job to entertain people. It is not their job to be entertained by whatever happens to entertain you.

My thoughts exactly.
 

Nibel

Member
I'm not saying it's a serious offense or that it will suddenly cause their unit sales to decrease drastically. There's no need to go out and bow for forgiveness or anything. Essentially though, it's best to keep things like this to yourself when your brand is in a seemingly endless sales downward spiral.

You are hilariously overestimating the average customer.
 

Azih

Member
Casuals have been shunning Nintendo for well over four years and NOW Nintendo is shifting strategy? Wow, way to be agile there. And does Miyamoto realize that non casual gamers require a pretty steady flow of games, which requires third parties, third parties they've been actively pissing off for YEARS in their mad obsession with casuals?
 

Sendou

Member
People hear what they want to hear. That said it makes sense. Nintendo should focus on their niche first and then expand second.
 
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