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Modder (featured in yesterday's paid bundle) decides to exit Workshop and maybe Nexus
- Thread starter ashecitism
- Start date
Regarding his issue with Arissa 2.0 staying on the workshop - but only for paid customers - I just don't see any justification for his anger. People have purchased the mod through steamworkshop and now he wants to remove it and refund them retroactively? Without getting too much into the "license vs owning", I don't agree with him in the slightest. People have bought it, they get to keep it. I thank Valve for keeping that content available to people who have purchased it.
He entered the agreement with Valve to sell it, it was sold for a time, now people get to keep using it. That seems completely legitimate to me.
He entered the agreement with Valve to sell it, it was sold for a time, now people get to keep using it. That seems completely legitimate to me.
tim_pkmn89
Member
Now imagine the rage if Valve pulled a game completely for any reason, not letting prior purchasers download it.
Unbelievable.
Some of you guys are just unbelievable.
Our lord and savior, Lord Gabe can do no wrong. He wants nothing but happiness and satisfaction from you. I'm 100% sure that whoever was the modder did not see thru lord gabe's grand plan to save the gaming world yet once again.
Support valve and support steam without question. Those who question lord gabe will be branded as heretic and burn to cinders.
Some of you guys are just unbelievable.
Our lord and savior, Lord Gabe can do no wrong. He wants nothing but happiness and satisfaction from you. I'm 100% sure that whoever was the modder did not see thru lord gabe's grand plan to save the gaming world yet once again.
Support valve and support steam without question. Those who question lord gabe will be branded as heretic and burn to cinders.
Scams don't make Valve money. Well... third party scams.
oh boy, such unique rhetoric.
And in a thread full of people saying Valve is wrong.
Give yourself a round of applause.
Shift Breaker
Member
Huh. When I browsed the list of mods, I pictured that trouble would appear from somewhere because, well, it always does. Never expected the fishing mod to be the cause, of all things.
Pagusas
Elden Member
You should have seen when Steam first released and it was required to use for Half Life 2. Those were some epic times of hate.
Who are you even responding to? I don't see a person that actually defends Valve in this thread.
To be honest, this just looks like someone attempting to do business without actually taking into account the responsibiities of doing so, but I am curious about precisely when and how well broadcast the (apparent) change to the animation tool's license was.
That said, Valve should really have offered better guidance for the terms of using other people's creations in your mod. There's an old coder's adage that there's a significant difference between free and Free.
That said, Valve should really have offered better guidance for the terms of using other people's creations in your mod. There's an old coder's adage that there's a significant difference between free and Free.
RIP W.O.N.
When lord gabe come down from a cloud with thousands of angels, with one hand full of consumer right and one hand the greatest game known to mankind known as half life 3, you will kneel down before him and repent your sins.
Said or implied no one ever. Please try again after reading the sensible replies more carefully.
zephervack
Member
Well, I think what's making him angry is that there's a sort of IP / copyright dispute going on, and his preference is to remove and refund the mod so he can hopefully avoid the issue altogether.
Imagine if you put up a paid mod that used someone else's work and they came after you and threatened legal action. You don't think it's worth the hassle (especially given the 25% cut you're getting), so you decide it'd just be easier to remove the mod entirely and refund the couple of dollars you made. Valve won't do it, and your mod stays up as continuing evidence of a copyright violation which the original content creator gets pissed about.
What's more important - that the customers who bought the mod continue to have access (even though they would be fully refunded), or the rights of the original content creator whose copyright was violated without their consent?
Way to nurse the hate boner.
Finally noticed the cash being extracted, lol.
I remember those times very well.
water_wendi
Water is not wet!
i havent been keeping up on gaming events since Pillars of Eternity released but did this just come completely out of nowhere? Any lead up by Valve at all?
Pagusas
Elden Member
I remember those times very well.
LMAO ah memories.
Yeah, if you want to keep full control of your content, don't license it to someone in the first place. That's what licenses do: the content creator gives up some of their control so another party has access to the content. They're simple contracts.
The control that is given up usually takes the form of the license not being revokable (or at least lasting a long time). Otherwise, why would anyone pay for content if the content creator can just take the ball and leave once they don't like what's happening within those license agreements.
Looks like someone had no idea what they were getting in to (and/or needed better lawyers that could have explained license terms).
I think I've once seen a list of games posted around here that actually got deleted off of peoples libraries. But I think that was mostly MMO stuff that got shut down and thus simply wasn't playable any longer.
It caught me by surprise yesterday, but based on this from the Nexus it looks like this was in the works since at least January.
Netherscourge
Banned
Lets be honest...
Valve is letting them keep it so they don't have to pay anyone back.
It's not about helping out the customers. It's about Valve not wanting to give back their money.
I'm am curious though if Valve will transfer or divide up any of that 25% profit that was made off of that mod for the other content owner if they file a complaint.
Except the one he's angry about is the one that is 100% his own work. Hence there is no copyright dispute. He entered an agreement with Valve to sell his work and people bought it. Now he wants to force all the customers to essentially "return" the product they bought and get a refund because he's upset at Valve. That is 100% crap. That is anti-consumer and I don't agree with him in the slightest.
He can argue copyright issues with the first mod and some of his points look legitimate and might put him in a tough spot but the second one he has admitted there are no copyright issues, he just wants to pull it because he's mad. The world doesn't work that way. In this case it would be the consumers getting screwed.
Once someone "bought" his mod which he legally agreed to sell, it is no longer his to do with what he will. This is the root of all evil with software right now. This is John Deere claiming you don't "own" your tractor, you are merely leasing it for the life of it because they own the software inside.
Frankly I don't care if that is the reason. In this case, the content creator is wrong for believing he owns the software that people bought and can force them to return it because he created it.
JimmyRustler
Gold Member
First post should have been....
Thatescalatedquickly.gif
Thatescalatedquickly.gif
Yeah, I don't like that implication.
Nothing as far as I can tell... In fact, the bundle only contains 16 items. I could've sworn there was 18 yesterday so if the fishing one was removed, there must be another one taken down.
I think they are being sarcastic, but it's hard to tell (which would mean good job if you are being sarcastic).
As far as I can tell, it came out of nowhere. The modders who had their mods for sale first knew, but couldn't tell anyone and The Nexus had a hunch a month ago. However, yesterday was the first anyone heard of it. I think part of the backlash is due to people being blindsided (what was free is now behind a paywall). Even if you don't mind modders asking for money, people don't like that mods they were using before for free will only be updated if you buy it and only from the Steam Workshop..
superseohyun
Member
answer: the cut that valve received.
balladofwindfishes
Member
Wouldn't even be the first time Valve encouraged a community contributor to do something they didn't necessarily agree with and then they left the entire scene all together when it came crashing down.
Valve really needs to stop roping innocent creators into their cockimangy schemes.
Valve really needs to stop roping innocent creators into their cockimangy schemes.
He was talking about giving refunds to everyone. So, I guess he wants to give his money back and pull the mod. Which is his right, I think (I have no idea).
Ganzlinger
Member
This a mess... I expected better from Valve/Bethesda on this. Maybe I'm naive.
I don't think that one thing is actually related to the other. I don't know anything about US law, so I might be absolutely wrong here, but I don't think that his wrongdoing - selling content that violated someone else's copyright - is being undone by refunding people and taking access away. The fact remains that he sold something he shouldn't have sold.
Remove the digital side of it and it makes it a bit clearer (as analogies ALWAYS do!). This would be a supplier for a shop getting into a dispute with the shop, and asking you (as a customer) to return the item because they changed their mind about supplying it.
Unless it's a product recall for a fault, I can't see a lot of customers playing ball with that. And I can't see a lot of action being taken on behalf of the supplier either.
J
Jotamide
Unconfirmed Member
I just want GOG Galaxy to take off to jump ship.
Better yet, let's stick with a digital analogy that's a little larger scope and more easily recognized:
If Activision decided that Valve wasn't a good platform for them anymore so they demanded Valve pull the license from everyone who bought Call of Duty and refund their money, would that be ok?
I don't think so. Just because you make something, doesn't mean you own it after you sell it.
It seems even more complicated then that. Support has obviously been dropped for this mod on steam. Any change by Bethesda or the mod it relies on could potentially break this mod.
This whole thing seems like a half baked idea that should only have been implemented for new games built with paid mods in mind. This will be far more damaging then it should have been because they are suddenly dropping a big pile of money into a community that wasn't built on the idea of monetization. If this had started with the next game, then the community would have started building the tools for these mods with the understanding of what could and couldn't be done with other people's work.
Even this could have worked much better had they not tried to surprise everyone and instead had given the community several months to work it out amongst themselves before launching.
ultrazilla
Member
This is nothing more than Valve trying to actually KILL the free modding market.
Very clever of them to offer money for mod makers. It'll help get people conditioned to buying mods and DLC that the big publishers crave. BUY THE CONTENT! BUY THE CONTENT! BUY THE CONTENT!
At first you may think this is a great idea but look deeper.
Glad the idea is already causing a cluster. I swear, the current video game industry just sucks.
Very clever of them to offer money for mod makers. It'll help get people conditioned to buying mods and DLC that the big publishers crave. BUY THE CONTENT! BUY THE CONTENT! BUY THE CONTENT!
At first you may think this is a great idea but look deeper.
Glad the idea is already causing a cluster. I swear, the current video game industry just sucks.
It wouldn't undo his wrongdoing, but since the content continuing to be sold can exacerbate and escalate the harm to the copyright holder there might be situations where his voluntarily removing the content could prevent a dispute from turning into something bigger (and nastier).
Looking at Valve's lawyer's response at the end (about not removing content unless "legally compelled to do so"), I actually think Valve might remove content completely, customer payments or not, if they got a DMCA-style takedown notice from a rights-holder - which makes sense, because they'd be in trouble if they received notice of something like pirated content but continued to make it available for sale. But that's not what's happening here since it's the creator himself wanting to take the content down for personal reasons, and I can see in that case why it's harder to defend his being able to remove it.
But what do other digital stores do? When the creator of "Flappy Bird" decided to remove the game from the App Store, people obviously didn't get refunds (since it was free), but wasn't it completely de-listed even if it was still installed on people's devices?
Well if they do curate they are doing as good of a job as their customer service.
I can understand the concern around modding and changes to the underlying gamecode breaking the mod. That said, why wouldn't content creators like to get paid for their work? Steam workshop for something like CS:GO and DOTA2 are quite successful with content creators making skins and getting paid for them. The community eats it up in the cases and drops.
If a modder can make some money off something they're already doing for free (oftentimes because they want a career in the industry) then it's a nice way for them to get a leg up and get some monetary recognition.
I'm not trying to side with Valve here or anything, I'm just not recognizing the complete and utter demonizing of this.
balladofwindfishes
Member
With Dota 2, TF2 and CSGO, Valve themselves curates the content and sets the prices. It's a little different than just throwing a modder out there to hope for the best and the customers hope for the best as far as support for the mod actually working.
Also the TF2, Dota 2 and CSGO workshops and content creation communities aren't the most healthy either. The TF2 one is basically dead, the Dota 2 has everyone trying to one up each other with more and more complex and garish sets and the CSGO workshop has cases of theft happening every so often.
Whew thats a ridiculously crazy situation. Either way they are fucked though. Go ahead and find some way to delete the content from the people who paid for it/currently have it and they are going to be fucking furious. Don't and this guy will be fucking furious.
If I were them I would just do what it takes to take the content from the people who bought it; let those people hate you to death for doing so; refund this guys stuff and shut the whole damn program down. Because nothing they can do will stop people from infringing on someone elses shit then wanting to 'BAIL OUT' once the legal heat comes down on them. So they are just going to find themselves in this uncomfortable situation over and over and over.
If I were them I would just do what it takes to take the content from the people who bought it; let those people hate you to death for doing so; refund this guys stuff and shut the whole damn program down. Because nothing they can do will stop people from infringing on someone elses shit then wanting to 'BAIL OUT' once the legal heat comes down on them. So they are just going to find themselves in this uncomfortable situation over and over and over.
Slightly off topic.. but the link on reddit (half way down the page) to the 2006 gamespot article regarding Horse Armour DLC and the following comments are quite prophetic, especially LordOfMorning and SgtMMMbop_basic. wow.
Also the exact same rebuttals supporting DLC is happening in the current mod threads.
Also the exact same rebuttals supporting DLC is happening in the current mod threads.
Hero Prinny
Member
thats actually what google does with the play store. I've had a few of the apps I've actually bought disappear not only from the store but my purchase history preventing me from re downloading it, which is why i no longer make purchases on the play store
they have. They're starting to get way too arrogant. we need a competitor that can stand toe to toe with steam to knock em down a bit.
EatinOlives
Member
Their problem is their decentralized structure means they don't really have a long-term vision for the platform. They likely just saw that compensation for user-generated content worked very well for TF2 and they decided to make it universal, with little thought given to problems like "what about dependencies"? They saw modders were generally happy with taking a low cut in TF2 and must've thought all modders for every game would be happy with a low cut. TF2 doesn't have a "Nexus" that actively competes with their own Workshop so they didn't even think about that. Or rather they knew a lot of modders may pull their content from the Nexus and charge for it exclusively at the Workshop and simply didn't care.
Another big problem for Steam is Valve's complete lack of desire to have quality control/assurance. Nearly everything they've been doing as of late is some effort or another to offload these responsibilities to something or someone else. Greenlight is a way to indie devs policed by the masses instead of a Valve-powered review board. Their new "$5 rule" was put in place because they didn't feel like clamping down on obvious scammers themselves. They continue to have awful customer support that all but makes you fend for yourself. They introduce pie-in-the-sky concepts like paid modder content but then turn around and completely neglect to regulate it. They just assume the system will work itself out somehow.
Sadly I don't see their behavior changing until something comes out that completely blows them away in terms of backlash/lost revenue. It'll likely have to be a lot of lost revenue. Right now they do this shit because either there's no revenue lost (someone with hundreds of dollars worth of Steam games will likely not stop paying for Steam games entirely just because they had a spat with customer service), or because no matter how badly a system/feature is received they'll still make money (like with this paid modder system. Even if it sucks ass and there's a lot of infighting and ruins modding for a lot of people, they'll still get paid).
biglittleps
Member
They have created a store for selling PC games on the the always growing platform without worrying about the selling hardware to someone or spend time to make exclusive games (Just F2P) anymore. Now they want to earn more money out of this store by introducing many things so they are trying all these and experimenting to get more money out of every user with their clever methods. I appreciate valve for creating a store and allow PC games to sell against piracy (and Indies programs) but the methods they choose for gaining sales are not very good which are mostly sales like giving away games for very cheap most of the time (dangerous trick that can make people not to play full price unless they are game fans or its highly rated game). They were good for few years but now recently they are doing everything wrong and trying to get complete control over PC games monopoly which they are doing now with Steam OS/ hardware and new plans they are experimenting. Hope Microsoft will give a good competition with their store from windows 10 so gamers can expect some good things which always happen when there is a competition just like consoles.