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[Lesiroth]

You know I don't know how I feel about "democracy" in Egypt. Democracy requires more than just 'majority rules'. It requires 'majority rules with minority rights'. It seems to me that democracy without protection for minorities is no democracy at all. I also get the impression that Islamist parties are unaware of this point. If the Muslim Brotherhood has power in Egypt what's going to happen to the Copt population? So it's wonderful that people can have democracy, but if the price of democracy is the suppression of innocent populations - I'm conflicted on whether I think it's a positive thing or not. I'm open to being educated on the subject if you'd like to enlighten me.

The MB has repeatedly guaranteed that the Copts will have their full rights during their campaign, but we'll see if that was more than just talk. The real battle still lies ahead with SCAF.

That comic is pretty pointless seeing as he won with 51%. Not to mention that Morsi has way too much opposition for him to try pulling anything crazy.

 

[phosphor112]

Hey it was a long process. People who think Egypt, or the ME, will not change over time don't realize they are still human beings.

Things have changed already, just more in some countries than others. Give it time.

The only variable is how much human suffering there will be in the meantime.

I can sleep sound at night knowing that. There is no fast solution for the ME, only generational changes and mass media consumption.

Time is of the essence when death awaits the masses.

Spoiler

/cryptic

 

[Kurtofan]

Hard to call it a democracy when people vote based on extreme religious views and are widely illiterate

In the first round only 24% voted for the Islamic candidate unfortunatly the other secular candidates were divided and this allowed the former Mubarak minister to reach the second round.

The same thing happened in France in 2002.(Le Pen of the far right reached the second round while the divided left had no candidates in the second round)

Edit:sorry if it was sarcasm.



I find it sickening to see so much scorn for a new democracy, they dodged a huge bullet by avoiding Shafiq.

 

[Gentleman Jack]

Hard to call it a democracy when people vote based on extreme religious views and are widely illiterate

Wait, this isn't about Mississippi!

 

[LowEndTorque]

Hard to call it a democracy when people vote based on extreme religious views and are widely illiterate

Sounds a lot like another country I know. Just replace illiterate with stupid.

Edit: Damn, beaten.

 

[phosphor112]

Just because it was the case than, doesn't mean it's the case now. It was also shaky at best even in the past. Even in the past, that early democracy was shaky at best, and it soon turned into monarchs.

You're correct. The situation is completely different now. Islam thrived on science and math because frankly (anyone who has read the Quran would tell you) knowledge, and especially science, is essential to ones belief. Now, science is lauded as witchcraft and is associated with being "kafir" (non-believer). Islam in the middle east has gone back to a pre-islamic state. The Arab leaders pre-Islam had rules and cultural practices that had to be followed and were to be never questioned. This is exactly what we see today.

 

[BigJonsson]

Sounds a lot like another country I know. Just replace illiterate with stupid.

Edit: Damn, beaten.

Exactly

 

[Stridone]

Sounds a lot like another country I know. Just replace illiterate with stupid.

Edit: Damn, beaten.

It's pretty ridiculous to compare islamic extremism in the middle east to christian fundamentalism in the US. Would you rather live under the Republican party or in Iran? One doesn't want gay people to marry, the other one doesn't want them to live (for example).

 

[~Kinggi~]

It's pretty ridiculous to compare islamic extremism in the middle east to christian fundamentalism in the US. Would you rather live under the Republican party or in Iran? One doesn't want gay people to marry, the other one doesn't want them to live (for example).

Subtleties like this get lost on most of GAF.

 

[Phoenician_Viking]

Let's celebrate then like it's 1933!

So the Islamic Brotherhood are Nazis now?

Godwin's law is always represented in political threads.

 

[cheststrongwell]

I'd take Christian Republicans over Muslim extremists any day of the week.

 

[LowEndTorque]

It's pretty ridiculous to compare islamic extremism in the middle east to christian fundamentalism in the US.

It's equally ridiculous to compare the MB in its current state to the Shia Iranian regime.

There are many different shades of Islamism ranging from moderate (comparable to typical Christian fundamentalist) to radical militants. "Middle Eastern Muslim Extremism" is only used as a general blanket term to describe all Islamists by those who are uneducated or misinformed on the vast complexities of ME politics and society.

 

[Slightly Live]

I'd take Christian Republicans over Muslim extremists any day of the week.

How about Christian extremists over Muslim extremists? They're both mental.

If you are convinced that your hatred and ignorance is divinely inspired, no matter which flavour of fairytale, you're gonna fuck things up.

 

[Kurtofan]

It's pretty ridiculous to compare islamic extremism in the middle east to christian fundamentalism in the US. Would you rather live under the Republican party or in Iran? One doesn't want gay people to marry, the other one doesn't want them to live (for example).

Except the MB while being terrible isn't Iran level terrible.

 

[Kafel]

Hard to call it a democracy when people vote based on extreme religious views and are widely illiterate

idiocracy then ?

 

[phosphor112]

Except the MB while being terrible isn't Iran level terrible.

What is it, in your opinion, that makes Iran worse. Just wondering.

 

[DR2K]

I imagine this dictator would be more humble than the last one.

 

[akira28]

Finally, a president that will give women a fair shake.

as long as they don't run for high public office, right?

 

[theignoramus]

Yes, GAF - please contain your unbridled joy.

almost none of the policy experts I follow on twitter or listen to on AJE have been as pessimistic as that lineup of quotes. sheesh.
The Brotherhood isnt extremist Islam anyway, I dont think people even know what extremist Islam is. Virtually no expert commentary refers to them as an example of islamic extremism.

 

[phosphor112]

almost none of the policy experts I follow on twitter or listen to on AJE have been as pessimistic as that lineup of quotes. sheesh.
The Brotherhood isnt extremist Islam anyway, I dont think people even know what extremist Islam is. Virtually no expert commentary refers to them as an example of islamic extremism.

There is a large fraction (probably not majority though) that are extremist. You are right though, things could be worse off...

 

[theignoramus]

There is a large fraction (probably not majority though) that are extremist. You are right though, things could be worse off...

Yeah, like a Salafist candidate winning.

 

[Speedymanic]

I imagine this dictator would be more humble than the last one.

Dictator?

any news on if the army are going to up power? Makes this meaningless if they don't.

 

[phosphor112]

Yeah, like a Salafist candidate winning.

Exactly. That would be an outright disaster.

 

[Flying_Phoenix]

Expected.

How does the Egyptian system work now? Are there term limits?

 

[genjiZERO]

The MB has repeatedly guaranteed that the Copts will have their full rights during their campaign, but we'll see if that was more than just talk. The real battle still lies ahead with SCAF.

That comic is pretty pointless seeing as he won with 51%. Not to mention that Morsi has way too much opposition for him to try pulling anything crazy.

almost none of the policy experts I follow on twitter or listen to on AJE have been as pessimistic as that lineup of quotes. sheesh.
The Brotherhood isnt extremist Islam anyway, I dont think people even know what extremist Islam is. Virtually no expert commentary refers to them as an example of islamic extremism.

It's equally ridiculous to compare the MB in its current state to the Shia Iranian regime.

There are many different shades of Islamism ranging from moderate (comparable to typical Christian fundamentalist) to radical militants. "Middle Eastern Muslim Extremism" is only used as a general blanket term to describe all Islamists by those who are uneducated or misinformed on the vast complexities of ME politics and society.

Isn't the current head of Al Qaeda - Ayman al-Zawahiri - a member of the MB? See, I'm having a hard time figuring out the group. I hear from commentators that they are a generally benign organisation - very conservative, but still benign. But on the otherhand some of its members do have positions of power within "extremist" groups (no one argues that Al Qaeda isn't extremist right?).

 

[Gentleman Jack]

Expected.

How does the Egyptian system work now? Are there term limits?

They don't have a constitution or a parliament so, for now no. When you stop and think about it, it doesn't mean a damn thing to be President of Egypt beyond the symbolic aspect.

 

[theignoramus]

Isn't the current head of Al Qaeda - Ayman al-Zawahiri - a member of the MB? See, I'm having a hard time figuring out the group. I hear from commentators that they are a generally benign organisation - very conservative, but still benign. But on the otherhand some of its members do have positions of power within "extremist" groups (no one argues that Al Qaeda isn't extremist right?).

he was. at age 14.

 

[genjiZERO]

he was. at age 14.

ok..... Care to expand? Was he booted out (is he still a member)? Is he an atypical member? How frequently do member also join "extremist" groups? What does this say about the MB generally? What is their actual track record with minorities? etc.... What I'm trying to do is figure out what the Muslim Brotherhood is all about so my opinion on the revolution and democracy in Egypt can be better formed.

 

[Omiee]

lol @ the picture, it is right though.

Under the old president/dictator they could do what ever they want pretty much. Egypt was known in the arab world as the most modern country. Now with the muslim brother hood rulling over the country i can see a lot of things changing.

good thing though, they were going nuts with all the clubs, drinking, revealing clothing on tv and movie's.

Its an islamic country so they should go back to their roots.

 

[genjiZERO]

lol @ the picture, it is right though.

Under the old president/dictator they could do what ever they want pretty much. Egypt was known in the arab world as the most modern country. Now with the muslim brother hood rulling over the country i can see a lot of things changing.

good thing though, they were going nuts with all the clubs, drinking, revealing clothing on tv and movie's.

Its an islamic country so they should go back to their roots.

I can't tell if you're serious

 

[LowEndTorque]

See, I'm having a hard time figuring out the group.

I dont blame you.

The group has a very long and complex history dating back to the 1940s and have gone through drastic changes in terms of leadership, methods, political propensities etc. over the past 60+ years. Yes it's true al-Zawahiri as well as most Egyptian terrorists and extremists were all members of the MB at one point or another until they branched off and formed or joined their own radical groups. Honestly though, the MB (and Egyptian and M. Eastern political and social history in general for that matter) is incredibly complex and something you can't really fully grasp without serious reading and research.

 

[Stridone]

lol @ the picture, it is right though.

Under the old president/dictator they could do what ever they want pretty much. Egypt was known in the arab world as the most modern country. Now with the muslim brother hood rulling over the country i can see a lot of things changing.

good thing though, they were going nuts with all the clubs, drinking, revealing clothing on tv and movie's.

Its an islamic country so they should go back to their roots.

I'm with you man, down with freedom!!

 

[SquiddyCracker]

Non-Egyptians really shouldn't pass judgement. The majority wanted a more Islamic government, and they got one. Democracy ftw!

And 48% will have to deal with Islamic repression?
A democracy ensures equal rights for everyone, which is incompatible with the ideas of the Muslim Brotherhood from what I've read.

 

[Cheebo]

So the Islamic Brotherhood are Nazis now?

Godwin's law is always represented in political threads.

The Brotherhood isn't Nazi's by a longshot but they are extremists of the most dangerous degree. If you a woman who lives in Egypt who cares even one once about your freedom you have only one option after this election.

Get yourself out of Egypt, and fast. It is not a safe country for women. That much is clear with the Muslim Brotherhood.

good thing though, they were going nuts with all the clubs, drinking, revealing clothing on tv and movie's.

They were actually acting modern. How dare they indeed.

 

[fallagin]

Hopefully people have the means to vote them out if they don't like them.

 

[Kalnos]

good thing though, they were going nuts with all the clubs, drinking, revealing clothing on tv and movie's.

wat

Spoiler

Seriously not sure if sarcasm

 

[WorriedCitizen]

So the Islamic Brotherhood are Nazis now?

Godwin's law is always represented in political threads.

Was merely referencing how an democratic election can fuck over democracy itself. I'm sure there are other examples in history.

But you are right. Let's not compare apples with peaches.

 

[theignoramus]

ok..... Care to expand? Was he booted out (is he still a member)? Is he an atypical member? How frequently do member also join "extremist" groups? What does this say about the MB generally? What is their actual track record with minorities? etc.... What I'm trying to do is figure out what the Muslim Brotherhood is all about so my opinion on the revolution and democracy in Egypt can be better formed.

Since the Brothers renounced terrorism and AQ, that would make him personas non gratas in that group. He also formed own group, Islamic Jihad.

 

[subversus]

Hard to call it a democracy when people vote based on extreme religious views and are widely illiterate

it's their votes. it's democracy not some hand-picked western shit.

with that said my condolences to the half of egyptians (and the other half who is yet to know what is coming to them).

 

[Victarion]

Found this on Reddit:

Yup.

I have a feeling that Egypt is going to be the next Iran, in terms of how the revolution came back and bit people in the ass and caused more oppression.

 

[theignoramus]

Yup.

I have a feeling that Egypt is going to be the next Iran, in terms of how the revolution came back and bit people in the ass and caused more oppression.

Explain your logic. How is Egypt set to become like the IR?

 

[subversus]

Explain your logic. How is Egypt set to become like the IR?

do you know what Muslim Brotherhood is?

 

[Speedymanic]

Um, you all do realize the military and its council still hold all the power and there are no signs of them giving it up.

It's nothing more than a hollow victory the MB. Powerless president is powerless, etc.

 

[Yazan]

do you know what Muslim Brotherhood is?

Do you know?

 

[squidyj]

didn't we go in and kill all the leftist secular intellectuals and prop up dictatorships and theocracies in order to prevent the sweep of the red menace?

 

[LowEndTorque]

Interesting.

I was googling around since I didn't know much about Morsi and discovered that he used to work at NASA developing space shuttle engines. So he's basically a rocket scientist, lol.

Do you know?

lol, I don't think anyone on gaf does. We are all armchair Middle East experts and analysts here.

 

[Dead Man]

As long as it was a fair election, and the people elected don't prevent another fair election in a reasonable period, I'm happy with that.

 

[theignoramus]

do you know what Muslim Brotherhood is?

I know what they're about. (roughly speaking) Do you know what the current state of Egypt is? How SCAF, the secular institution that actually runs the country, neutered the presidential powers? That it dissolved the MB majority parliament?


That Egypt's tourism and international investments would dry up like the Sahara if Egypt turned into a hardline Islamist state? That SCAF, which has billions of dollars invested in Egypt's economy will not permit that to happen?
the Brothers are not even in a position to implement the kind of drastic changes required to turn the country into another Iran.

 

[Victarion]

Explain your logic. How is Egypt set to become like the IR?

Well, I didn't say it 100% will. Iran's revolution started off by promising freedom to the oppressed, but only after overthrowing the king, the so called leader called for Islamic values and laws. People realized too late that they exchanged a monarchy for a more oppressive theocracy that calls itself a republic.

Egypt could be going the same way by electing a government that calls for Sharia law and Islamic values, etc.

I'm Iranian for the record.

 

[Volimar]

Stupid Egypt! We meant for you to have democracy so you could vote for the person we liked...