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Moore, Satchell savage 'talentless' Sony at CES

Dr_Cogent said:
XP is the first OS from them that has been satisfactory to me. Everything previous was pretty crappy. ME sucked, 98 sucked, 95 sucked, WFW 3.11 sucked, DOS sucked.... you get the idea. It's taken MS many many years to get things right (and they still haven't gotten security right yet though).

I'll give MS credit where credit is due. They've ****ed up shit tons over the years, but the 360 and Live are winners in my book.
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Agreed. They've learned a lot in all that software development that has gone on over the years, and have focused more on UI as well. As others have said, it usually takes them three versions of something to get it right, but they do learn and adapt, and their more recent track record in software has been much much better.

360 and Live integration is awesome.

Tony HoTT said:
All I know is my experience with Xbox Live sucked balls lastnight. I'm talking laggy ****in shit where all the characters on GoW looked like they were teleporting around instead of running. And then everyone started getting these "your connection is too weak right now" messages. We could still voice chat and shit but everyone was getting them!

WTF M$!?!?!?
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It's silly to blame MS for the fact that the host of your Gears game has an ISP who has oversold the node in his neighborhood, causing your game to bog down. Tell the neighbors to stop downloading porn long enough for you to get your game in.
 
Well, there is obviously some fear in there... They can try to knock Sony as hard as they want to, but Sony gave people MORE than they expected from them in terms of Online servies... You can easily go back and forth with "I got this", "well I got it too" stuff... There's nothing really special to Live anymore, after what seeing you get from Sony, and for free... I hate to go on about this, but Resistance is the best online gaming experience there is right now... It is all inclusive with features, and gameplay quality online... Nearly zero lag, etc... What the hell happened to Live that there's so much Lag to it now?

I think the problem here is Sony has delivered more than enough to gamers that they are beginning to second guess the "you get what you pay for" thing... Moore and friends know and see this... Don't get me wrong, Live still has it's "pluses", but, they've been whittled down so severly that you question if you're getting your money's worth... and yes, I own both machines, and subscribe to Live Gold...

If they were attacking Ninty, and their services, well, maybe I can see that... but Sony, like it or not, has brought, and via updates will bring even more to the table over time... If those March updates are correct, and you get stufll like video-conf while in the XMB and in-game especially, well, you have to begin to wonder who is going to end up the leader...
 
J-Rzez said:
Well, there is obviously some fear in there... They can try to knock Sony as hard as they want to, but Sony gave people MORE than they expected from them in terms of Online servies... You can easily go back and forth with "I got this", "well I got it too" stuff... There's nothing really special to Live anymore, after what seeing you get from Sony, and for free... I hate to go on about this, but Resistance is the best online gaming experience there is right now... It is all inclusive with features, and gameplay quality online... Nearly zero lag, etc... What the hell happened to Live that there's so much Lag to it now?

I think the problem here is Sony has delivered more than enough to gamers that they are beginning to second guess the "you get what you pay for" thing... Moore and friends know and see this... Don't get me wrong, Live still has it's "pluses", but, they've been whittled down so severly that you question if you're getting your money's worth... and yes, I own both machines, and subscribe to Live Gold...

If they were attacking Ninty, and their services, well, maybe I can see that... but Sony, like it or not, has brought, and via updates will bring even more to the table over time... If those March updates are correct, and you get stufll like video-conf while in the XMB and in-game especially, well, you have to begin to wonder who is going to end up the leader...
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Honestly, all MS has to do is make the current P2P service the Silver tier and make dedicated servers, Beta access and first shot at demos the Gold Service.

Its really not that difficult.
 
Mojovonio said:
Honestly, all MS has to do is make the current P2P service the Silver tier and make dedicated servers, Beta access and first shot at demos the Gold Service.

Its really not that difficult.
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It is though, because MS refuses to do so.
 
Mrbob said:
It is though, because MS refuses to do so.
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I know, and I know it may make sense to them, seeing how they don't really care if they come in 2nd, since they're increasing their market share, and 50% of those people pay them 50$ a year. MS is happy, but their consumers aren't.
 
Mojovonio said:
Honestly, all MS has to do is make the current P2P service the Silver tier and make dedicated servers, Beta access and first shot at demos the Gold Service.

Its really not that difficult.
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Well, I agree, though we'll probably never see that happen...
 
They can try to knock Sony as hard as they want to, but Sony gave people MORE than they expected from them in terms of Online servies..
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If Sony just could add cross game invites, in game messaging and voice support for every title.

Live is still way ahead even in the basic features.
 
"It is not in Sony's DNA to be able to get that up and running from zero."
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I had a good laugh at this gem, Moore was talking like the PS3 is Sony first stab at the market. Leading the industry for a decade is "from zero" now :lol
 
Mojovonio said:
I know, and I know it may make sense to them, seeing how they don't really care if they come in 2nd, since they're increasing their market share, and 50% of those people pay them 50$ a year. MS is happy, but their consumers aren't.
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Which consumers? The ones that are actually paying for Live? I'm one of them, and I don't mind at all. In fact, outside of a few rumblings on this board, I haven't heard anyone complain about paying for Live service.
 
Barry Lightning said:
then re-read it, i dropped numbers. if the casual gamer was/is ready for online, he/she sure as hell didnt show it last gen.

we're like 10+ years into broadband penetration in major cities, and even still not every single person has it. and while the games industry as a whole doesnt need every single person online and with broadband to make a nice chunk of change, it supports the fact that the CASUAL GAMER is not on top of the whole online gaming thing.
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Of course I ignored the numbers - you guessed at the them AND were wrong! :lol

Anyway, when roughly half of the Xbox 360 audience is online, I would say the generation is ready. Also, I'm not sure if you're aware of this or not, but the MAJORITY of the casual gamer market on the PC plays games online. That is the true casual market (cards, board games, etc.), and it is overwhelmingly online.
 
_leech_ said:
I had a good laugh at this gem, Moore was talking like the PS3 is Sony first stab at the market. Leading the industry for a decade is "from zero" now :lol
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wasnt it in reference to the online infastructure? i guess he was pretty off-base, what with Sony trouncing iTunes. That was a real bloodbath.
 
_leech_ said:
I had a good laugh at this gem, Moore was talking like the PS3 is Sony first stab at the market. Leading the industry for a decade is "from zero" now :lol
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actually, he was talking about PNP, so yeah.
 
tahrikmili said:
I think most of the live naysayers are really neglecting how big multiplayer gaming is. The Live! attach ratio of 360s sold so far is ~50%, that means there's DEMAND for it in the console business, and regardless of what you think online multiplayer support will eventually factor in when all is said and done. Who would buy the console with poor online support if game support and hardware power are equivalent?

And please stop with the PS2 sold that many units with no online support arguments, broadband penetration and online gaming has grown by leaps and bounds in the last five years. PS2 launched before Quake 3 or CS hit the market, IIRC - focus on gaming has clearly shifted vastly since those days.
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I think you're neglecting how small multiplayer gaming is. The correct numbers you have to look at is whether Xbox Live's attach ratio to Xboxes and 360s is overwhelming(protip: it's not), and whether Microsoft is dominating the industry by peddling its online advantage (protip: it's not). If last generation is any indication, multiplayer gaming matters to 1% of the larger gaming public. When you factor in Wii and PS3 this generation, the people who actually care about online gaming enough to pay for it drops to something like 18%, and this is just with the Wii and PS3 launched.

Let's be honest here. A good chunk of the Xbox Live crowd is composed of PC-gamers-turned-console-gamers, but the PC purists still exclusively play online games on their PCs. Unless Xbox 360 has a huge, and I mean HUGE, online hit on their hands in the vein of World of Warcraft, Xbox Live and any other similar services from Sony or Nintendo will be rather irrelevant in the bigger scheme of things. The only way for multiplayer gaming on consoles to really take off is some kind of Pokemon MMORPG.

Hell, look at Halo 2. 7 or 8 million copies sold, and Xbox only had 2 million or so Xbox Live subscriptions.
 
Kung Fu Jedi said:
It's silly to blame MS for the fact that the host of your Gears game has an ISP who has oversold the node in his neighborhood, causing your game to bog down. Tell the neighbors to stop downloading porn long enough for you to get your game in.
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Who else to blame here. They charge you 50 bucks and don't have dedicated server? How lame is that!!! while PSN service is free and have dedicated server.
All MS does is to get people money.
 
Nightstick11 said:
I think you're neglecting how small multiplayer gaming is. The correct numbers you have to look at is whether Xbox Live's attach ratio to Xboxes and 360s is overwhelming(protip: it's not), and whether Microsoft is dominating the industry by peddling its online advantage (protip: it's not). If last generation is any indication, multiplayer gaming matters to 1% of the larger gaming public. When you factor in Wii and PS3 this generation, the people who actually care about online gaming enough to pay for it drops to something like 18%, and this is just with the Wii and PS3 launched.

Let's be honest here. A good chunk of the Xbox Live crowd is composed of PC-gamers-turned-console-gamers, but the PC purists still exclusively play online games on their PCs. Unless Xbox 360 has a huge, and I mean HUGE, online hit on their hands in the vein of World of Warcraft, Xbox Live and any other similar services from Sony or Nintendo will be rather irrelevant in the bigger scheme of things. The only way for multiplayer gaming on consoles to really take off is some kind of Pokemon MMORPG.

Hell, look at Halo 2. 7 or 8 million copies sold, and Xbox only had 2 million or so Xbox Live subscriptions.
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Are you completely ignoring the Xbox Live attach rate on the 360? Also, don't forget that broadband penetration is much greater now than it was when Xbox Live launched.

One more thing to NOT forget. The gaming public in general (counting casuals) plays a TON of games online, mostly on the PC in the form of card or board games, but they are still playing online.
 
acousticvan said:
Who else to blame here. They charge you 50 bucks and don't have dedicated server? How lame is that!!! while PSN service is free and have dedicated server.
All MS does is to get people money.
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XBL has dedicated servers too... unfortunately they are rarely utilized
 
acousticvan said:
Who else to blame here. They charge you 50 bucks and don't have dedicated server? How lame is that!!! while PSN service is free and have dedicated server.
All MS does is to get people money.
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All Sony does is provide the ability to play games online for free. It's up to the individual developers/publishers to provide the infrastructure and dedicated servers if they choose to utilize them.

You seem to be confused about a number of things here.
 
acousticvan said:
Who else to blame here. They charge you 50 bucks and don't have dedicated server? How lame is that!!! while PSN service is free and have dedicated server.
All MS does is to get people money.
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Don't more Xbox games have dedicated servers than PS3 games?
How many ps3 games have dedicated servers?
 
meltpotato said:
nooooo... because publishers are cheap. or more accurately, fiscally responsible.
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No. Publishers don't get to have their own dedicated servers except EA. Because MS wants to control everything.
 
mmlemay said:
All Sony does is provide the ability to play games online for free. It's up to the individual developers/publishers to provide the infrastructure and dedicated servers if they choose to utilize them.

You seem to be confused about a number of things here.
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No my friend. Who are the users here? Don't you want to have better service for cheaper?
We are the users. We are the customers. We get better service and whats more? its free.
 
acousticvan said:
No. Publishers don't get to have their own dedicated servers except EA. Because MS wants to control everything.
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Euhm, doesn't Test Drive Unlimited have dedicated servers?
 
acousticvan said:
No. Publishers don't get to have their own dedicated servers except EA. Because MS wants to control everything.
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not true. Any publisher/developer can run servers via xLSP. That is how Sega is doing webstats for ChromeHounds. It is totally up to developers and publishers if they want to run services like that.

I have to stay Sony has some batshit insane people in their development software teams. I mean working on PS3 is a PAIN.

No my friend. Who are the users here? Don't you want to have better service for cheaper?
We are the users. We are the customers. We get better service and what more? its free.
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It is the developers responsibility to build many features into their PS3 network games that are just built into XBL. One major flaw with PSN is the user experience is going to be different across majority of games. How you invite people, how you launch games, how you see servers, how you invite across games. All this stuff is either built by by the developer, developer uses a 3rd party app like Gamespy, DemonWare, or Quazal, or they don't support those features.
Since those are built into the infrastructure of XBL, the developer doesn't have to build that system, just call the API to make them work in their game.

This is why TH Project 8 doesn't have multiplayer on PS3. Neversoft didn't want to build their own network lobby system.
 
guys why are we arguing because of this PR garbage? every company says this crap, there is no need to get hot and heavy over this stuff.
 
acousticvan said:
Back to this question: Don't you want to have better service for cheaper I mean for free or $50?
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Sony isn't providing the tools to allow for a better service then XBL. So devs are having to pick up the tab to make their game competitive in the market, instead of Sony providing the tools and structure to built great multiplayer games.
 
acousticvan said:
Back to this question: Don't you want to have better service for cheaper I mean for free or $50?
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I'd rather be able to play against people outside of the US since I play games at 4 in the morning. When I did most of my playing in Halo 2, I played against a lot of european players. If I have to pay 50 dollars a year to have a truly worldwide experience and ensure that there is always someone on, then it is worth it. Game invites = worth it. Cross game chat = worth. For some, just hoping online for free is enough, for those of us where it isn't, there is Xbox Live, that fulfills my needs for an online service. The money is trivial.
 
acousticvan said:
I don't know any 360 games having dedicated servers. Can you please list them for me?
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TDU has dedicated servers. There are also two types of dedicated servers. You have user dedicated servers, as well as publisher/developer dedicated servers. Not many games support user dedicated servers, but that should increase in the future. It really comes down to if a publisher wants to spend the $$$$ to have dedicated servers, and that exactly it does. Some run dedicated servers to support web based stats, while some use dedicated servers for matches.

How exactly do you think users would benefit from having dedicated servers?
 
acousticvan said:
I don't know any 360 games having dedicated servers. Can you please list them for me?
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I was asking, because I remember arne saying that there are a couple of 360 games using dedicated servers. TDU and FF11 uses dedicated servers, phantasy star stuff too. PGR3 uses it for streaming Live PGR TV and uploading pictures. Don't know if there are more. I think Battlefield Modern combat too.

Which PS3 games use dedicated servers? Because you seem to talk like all of them use it.
 
sonycowboy said:
Satchell bore similar sentiments. "If I wanted to make my online service better, and I wanted to give [Sony] a little piece of advice, it would be to copy Xbox Live a little more closely," he said.
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This seems like a direct response to one of Sony's "We'll do what Xbox Live does, but for free and better" comments... anyone have the exact quote that Satchell's retort is replying to?
 
element said:
It is the developers responsibility to build many features into their PS3 network games that are just built into XBL. One major flaw with PSN is the user experience is going to be different across majority of games. How you invite people, how you launch games, how you see servers, how you invite across games. All this stuff is either built by by the developer, developer uses a 3rd party app like Gamespy, DemonWare, or Quazal, or they don't support those features.
Since those are built into the infrastructure of XBL, the developer doesn't have to build that system, just call the API to make them work in their game.

This is why TH Project 8 doesn't have multiplayer on PS3. Neversoft didn't want to build their own network lobby system.
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Ok, you missed the boat here my friend.
PSN didn't have all the nifty things at launch because it's brand new service to Sony.
I guess you haven't played Griftshift. Just less than 2 months after launch you have the ability to add players and invite friends to a game. You can see the players that you met during game. What's more? Those players you met stay with your system regardless of having Griftshift running or not.
Tim Sweeny said Sony gives developers the freedom they need. He give props to Sony about online stuff.
 
Tieno said:
I was asking, because I remember arne saying that there are a couple of 360 games using dedicated servers. TDU and FF11 uses dedicated servers, phantasy star stuff too. PGR3 uses it for streaming Live PGR TV and uploading pictures. Don't know if there are more.

Which PS3 games use dedicated servers? Because you seem to talk like all of them use it.
Click to expand...

Talking about FF11, that's pathetic. They charge you $50 a year then another $10 every month.
 
Tieno said:
I was asking, because I remember arne saying that there are a couple of 360 games using dedicated servers. TDU and FF11 uses dedicated servers, phantasy star stuff too. PGR3 uses it for streaming Live PGR TV and uploading pictures. Don't know if there are more. I think Battlefield Modern combat too.

Which PS3 games use dedicated servers? Because you seem to talk like all of them use it.
Click to expand...


there is at least one future 360 game that that i'm thinking off off the top of my head that will use dedicated servers (based on the current spec). Don't think I'm at liberty to share this yet though.
 
arne said:
there is at least one future 360 game that that i'm thinking off off the top of my head that will use dedicated servers (based on the current spec). Don't think I'm at liberty to share this yet though.
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shadowrun? ;p
 
arne said:
there is at least one future 360 game that that i'm thinking off off the top of my head that will use dedicated servers (based on the current spec). Don't think I'm at liberty to share this yet though.
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oh cool Halo 3! ;)
 
acousticvan said:
Talking about FF11, that's pathetic. They charge you $50 a year then another $10 every month.
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you also missed the fact that you could be a silver member and still play FFXI online. MMOs are separate from Xbox Live.
 
acousticvan said:
Talking about FF11, that's pathetic. They charge you $50 a year then another $10 every month.
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Nice dodging and ignoring the rest. Can you please list the ps3 games which use dedicated servers?
 
PSN didn't have all the nifty thing at launch because it's brand new service to Sony.
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Didn't stop MS from providing that out of the box with XBL 1.0.
Tim Sweeny said Sony gives developers the freedom they need.
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Tim is a graphic programmer, not a network programmer. I respect Tim, but he can be crazy at times.
Just less than 2 months after the launch you have the ability to add players and invite friends to a game. You can see the players that you met during game. What's more? Those players you met stay with your system regardless of having Griftshift running or not.
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Yeah, a first party published game does it. Let's see a 3rd party game do it. Can you cross invite yet, as someone playing Resistance and see that their friend is playing Griftshift, and invite them to play Resistance?
Talking about FF11, that's pathetic. They charge you $50 a year then another $10 every month.
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Blame SquareEnix for the $10 a month, not MS.
 
element said:
Didn't stop MS from providing that out of the box with XBL 1.0.
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Did XBL 1.0 launch from day 1 with the system?
Tim is a graphic programmer, not a network programmer. I respect Tim, but he can be crazy at times.
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So his knowledge about networking is worse than you and me? He doesn't know anything about UT2004? Unreal Championship?
Yeah, a first party published game does it. Let's see a 3rd party game do it. Can you cross invite yet, as someone playing Resistance and see that their friend is playing Griftshift, and invite them to play Resistance?
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Yes, Resistance network wasn't implemented the way it should. You already know why, dont' you?

Blame SquareEnix for the $10 a month, not MS.
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Blame MS for letting that happened. If Sony charges $10 then its still ok because the entrance fee is $0.
 
acousticvan said:
Blame MS for letting that happened. If Sony charges $10 then its still ok because the entrance free is $0.
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Nice try. You can play FFXI on a Silver Live account as well. Same with PSU.
 
acousticvan said:
Blame MS for letting that happened. If Sony charges $10 then its still ok because the entrance fee is $0.
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:rolleyes

now I remember you.

The entrance fee for FFXI on ALL PLATFORMS is buying the game + Square-Enix's monthly fee. Nothing more for anybody, PC/Xbox 360/PS2/PS3.
 
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