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Music: Eastern vs Western Devs

But the western indie scene stepping it up in the music department is just my point. The AAA western devs view music differently because they have other tools at their disposal to create atmosphere. Its not coincidental then, that, like Japanese devs, Western indies use music to set the tone of the game instead of just supporting it.
It's not just about different tools, it's about trying to accomplish different things with the music.

The problem is A) the assumption that all Western AAAs have the exact same music B) that their OSTs aren't good or appreciated and that B) there aren't worthwhile Western soundtracks in general.
 

saturnine

Member
I don't trust the musical understanding of people who can only listen to anything that is packed with melody. That 'like a nice tune'.

Overly busy and devoid of any meaning. It's a 'tune' at best. It's not something written to encapsulate a feeling. That the overly written melody is memorable due to a note pattern and you've heard it during a moment you've great nostalgia for is not the same as actually feeling the music because the music brought it out of you. It can't effectively convey any emotions, it's too busy throwing notes at you in logic, in a key. It's too busy being theoretical. The tune is written more to stay in line with the key and display all the notes within than to actually say anything.

Might as well listen to arpeggiated synths. Absolutely devoid of any emotional resonance or decision making in writing.

what the christ am I reading

either you have no knowledge of music theory, or you know way too much for your own good.
 
Very few Western games OSTs stand out to me the only one that did was Vampire the Masquerade - Bloodlines. Although I've been given tracks from AC II by a friend and was blown away by it, they just often get drown out by other aspects of the game so I don't pay attention to them.
 
Very few Western games OSTs stand out to me the only one that did was Vampire the Masquerade - Bloodlines. Although I've been given tracks from AC II by a friend and was blown away by it, they just often get drown out by other aspects of the game so I don't pay attention to them.
I find the music in Destiny to be pretty outstanding. I could listen to the track that plays during the title screen for hours. Its amazing.
 

Nanashrew

Banned
Western music. Just so not memorable or unique, amirite? It's all just cinematic shit and all of it sucks. Here's a primer to educate you on how shit it all is:

*snip*

Since this thread is all about silly generalizations, I might as well share that I have this feeling that people shitting on Western music either A) don't play Western games or B) think they can use modern AAA titles as a scapegoat for their preferences and ignore everything else that has come out of the West. The amount of amazing OSTs that you can find in Western games is truly staggering. To write this post, I spent three hours going through my YouTube playlists listening to tracks I had saved and I barely scratched the surface of what I've saved over the years.

I like Austin Wintory, Grant Kirkhope, David Wise and Jake Kaufman a whole lot. I've even praised Austin Wintory's work in Journey and apparently he name searches so I made his day on Twitter one day and he gave me an ecstatic thank you.

Admittedly I didn't clarify enough that I still do like some western music and scores but I just like eastern music far more because they line up more with my tastes and preferences. Even if you brought in Japanese indies and doujin games it would still largely line up with my preferences. Western game music, I like more from the indie scene and that's largely become about it with very few exceptions in the AAA space.
 
I like Austin Wintory, Grant Kirkhope, David Wise and Jake Kaufman a whole lot. I've even praised Austin Wintory's work in Journey and apparently he name searches so I made his day on Twitter one day and he gave me an ecstatic thank you.

Admittedly I didn't clarify enough that I still do like some western music and scores but I just like eastern music far more because they line up more with my tastes and preferences. Even if you brought in Japanese indies and doujin games it would still largely line up with my preferences. Western game music, I like more from the indie scene and that's largely become about it with very few exceptions in the AAA space.
I mean that's perfectly fine in Eastern styled music approaches are more to your preference. That's just a preference. No problem there.

I know my post came after yours, but it certainly wasn't meant on an attack at you. My post was just an irate response to the people claiming Western games are all about mimicking Hollywood, which really ignores the amazing music going on in indie games (and isn't even totally true for all AAA games). It was also an irate response to the claim that there aren't memorable pieces of Western music, when there's hundreds of them.

Certainly, some games do just ape Hollywood scores and they end up very forgettable. But painting Western music with broad generalizations is just silly.
 
I can't think of many amazing western OSTs while Japan is fucking FULL of them, I fucking love music in games, one of the main reasons I keep loving Japanese games.

Anyways, Nier has the best OST ever.
 
A lot of indie games do everything I always loved about 90's Japanese games, and more. It's really just a style and approach.
 

Nanashrew

Banned
I mean that's perfectly fine in Eastern styled music approaches are more to your preference. That's just a preference. No problem there.

I know my post came after yours, but it certainly wasn't meant on an attack at you. My post was just an irate response to the people claiming Western games are all about mimicking Hollywood, which really ignores the amazing music going on in indie games (and isn't even totally true for all AAA games). It was also an irate response to the claim that there aren't memorable pieces of Western music, when there's hundreds of them.

Certainly, some games do just ape Hollywood scores and they end up very forgettable. But painting Western music with broad generalizations is just silly.

I agree. I think what it is, is that it's hard to give a more nuanced discussion on why someone prefers one particular style over another when it comes to music. I don't even have a full grasp on why and I can't tell you why I enjoy Kirby music so much, just that it's upbeat and makes me feel kinda happy when there's probably much more to it. I'm always open to many styles of music from different parts of the world though. Like, I really enjoy Celtic music which often has a lot of mystery and energy. The melodies are also really great.
 

jmood88

Member
The people who claim that they can't find amazing Western soundtracks/scores need to listen to the Top Score podcast.
 

elhav

Member
I have favourites from both worlds, however the majority of my favourites are Japanese for sure. For example, Journey has my favourite soundtrack in any game, but I can count far more Japanese made OSTs that I like. Okami, Persona games, Metal Gear Solid games, everything Nintendo, and that's just to name a few.
 

lazygecko

Member
A significant part of the supposed memorability we have from classic Japanese 8- and 16-bit games simply comes down to sheer repetition. But that kind of simple looped structure just doesn't lend itself that well to how many games work today which expect you to play in much longer sessions. So we have dynamic systems in place working behind the scenes, often mixing between different layers and stems. It's a great way to take better advantage of the interactive nature of games and avoid making the player feel fatigued by the music, but doesn't really lend itself as well to being listened on its own terms, while much older games mostly abided by the pop song structure. All of this applies to old western games as well of course, but given the console-centric demographic of NeoGAF you'll naturally see a lot of folks being hopelessly dismissive over this.

I think a good example of a modern game that tries to implement music in a traditional way but suffers from this is Elder Scrolls Online. It has as big a soundtrack as you'd expect from a big game like that, and the music in itself is really pretty good, but due to the way it's distributed and just plays the track on repeat all the time just makes you get tired of it rather quickly when you play for as long as you often do in MMOs and spending time in one area with a certain set of tracks.
 

Nanashrew

Banned
A significant part of the supposed memorability we have from classic Japanese 8- and 16-bit games simply comes down to sheer repetition. But that kind of simple looped structure just doesn't lend itself that well to how many games work today which expect you to play in much longer sessions. So we have dynamic systems in place working behind the scenes, often mixing between different layers and stems. It's a great way to take better advantage of the interactive nature of games and avoid making the player feel fatigued by the music, but doesn't really lend itself as well to being listened on its own terms, while much older games mostly abided by the pop song structure. All of this applies to old western games as well of course, but given the console-centric demographic of NeoGAF you'll naturally see a lot of folks being hopelessly dismissive over this.

I think a good example of a modern game that tries to implement music in a traditional way but suffers from this is Elder Scrolls Online. It has as big a soundtrack as you'd expect from a big game like that, and the music in itself is really pretty good, but due to the way it's distributed and just plays the track on repeat all the time just makes you get tired of it rather quickly when you play for as long as you often do in MMOs and spending time in one area with a certain set of tracks.

I think that's part of it too. Tim Follin was great in the 8-bit era though, even though his music wasn't often in big titles. I still think that Tim Follin was a genius when it came to his music on the NES because he's only using the standard NES 2A03 soundchip and no expansion chips.

Quick and dirty comparison.

Punch-Out!! in standard 2A03 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kPrtw7-MJhY

Silver Surfer level 1 in standard 2A03 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOSz0UxygwE
 

L Thammy

Member

This is kind of off topic, but I don't think I've ever seen a YouTube video with a better comment section.

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LordOfTheChickenWings said:
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I believe it was Pete Davison (formerly of USGamer) who said that the big difference between American and Japanese game music is that American game music tends to be inspired primarily by the soundracks of American movies while Japanese game music tends to be inspired by J-POP, or something like that.

I also personally think that part of the difference is that the Japanese industry has its roots in the games of the 80s and early 90s, where it was impossible to replicate the music created by real instruments so you had to figure out what music worked best for video games and video game hardware, whereas the western game industry didn't really come into its own until the 00s, when hardware was at the point where you could slap in whatever mp3 you wanted for your music, so the inspirations came more from contemporary non-game music and cinema soundtracks.

Hell, in general I think a large part of the difference between Japanese and western video games probably comes from the fact that most Japanese developers have their roots in the games of the 80s and 90s while most western developers played a shitload of the games in that era but didn't start making games themselves until the late 90s/early 00s.

EDIT: And I don't think it's a crazy coincidence that most of the good western tracks people are linking are either from pre-2000 games or from composers who have been doing video game music since pre-2000.

I think it's more the "wanna-be like Hollywood, cuz movies are more respectable than the luditic game industry so the money men will sign off on our game if it's got a non-scary, submissive filmic wanna-be Zimmer OST" deal.

And yes, while the Japanese industry got its musical value system came from a pop band*, alot of J-composers had training in jazz, classical, metal, or prog. as well. The below addendum will illuminate just why this gigantic lead jumped open during gens 3-6 reguarding OSTs on a country-to-country basis like this.

*which in turn, allowed the bar to be raised on OST quality by the sale of game soundtracks, with the feedback bouncing back and forth bringing in more money for publishers. Some of those tracks above sold tapes/CDs. That's a powerful incentive to let them work their magic!

Ya, Last Ninja 2 has a pretty awesome soundtrack. All of them do, but there is one track in Last Ninja 2 that I particularly like:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hraWQcNbYn8&index=13&list=PL5E751B086CB2C4C5

Those european systems were home to lots of really awesome Synth music that I'd argue many in this topic are saying Western music didn't cover. Ocean's C64 loaders in particular had some awesome tunes:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WyAd1qKIiXU

The load times may have sucked, but man it gave you a pretty cool show while it loaded..

More euro synth goodness:

Zool 2 - Tootin Common: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJB8lR_MFbA

Lotus Turbo Challenge 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LQSsq7HCNHw

This is the other facet.

The Euro PC/Console hybrid scene was a bloodbath of musical competition. When you have the likes of Gonzalez, Iveson, Hülsbeck, and the Follins filling ears with magical goodness, dogshit jank is not going to fly with the game-buying public as this elevated level of compositionial quality is a criteria for game purchases, just like it was in Japan.

A significant part of the supposed memorability we have from classic Japanese 8- and 16-bit games simply comes down to sheer repetition. But that kind of simple looped structure just doesn't lend itself that well to how many games work today which expect you to play in much longer sessions. So we have dynamic systems in place working behind the scenes, often mixing between different layers and stems. It's a great way to take better advantage of the interactive nature of games and avoid making the player feel fatigued by the music, but doesn't really lend itself as well to being listened on its own terms, while much older games mostly abided by the pop song structure. All of this applies to old western games as well of course, but given the console-centric demographic of NeoGAF you'll naturally see a lot of folks being hopelessly dismissive over this.

I think a good example of a modern game that tries to implement music in a traditional way but suffers from this is Elder Scrolls Online. It has as big a soundtrack as you'd expect from a big game like that, and the music in itself is really pretty good, but due to the way it's distributed and just plays the track on repeat all the time just makes you get tired of it rather quickly when you play for as long as you often do in MMOs and spending time in one area with a certain set of tracks.

It's funny you when you say MMOs; it's the one genre I turn the music off first thing so the conversation with other players becomes the musical accompaniment.
 
I think it's more the "wanna-be like Hollywood, cuz movies are more respectable than the luditic game industry so the money men will sign off on our game if it's got a non-scary, submissive filmic wanna-be Zimmer OST" deal.
This really only runs true with the biggest of modern AAA titles and not even all of them.
 
Continuity matters too. Many of the Japanese composers that you're referring to are lifers in their respective companies. Or are employed much longer in one company, like Kondo or Uematsu.

Contrast that with a western composer like Jesper Kyd, acclaimed for his work on the early Assassins Creed titles, but then Ubi decided to go with a new composer every game. Churning out new scores by new composers for every title can lead to much less memorable music, especially if the new titles are mostly incremental. That cycle impacts the music too.
 
And it has been incredibly paralyzing. Stuff like Remember Me's crazy "distort live instrumentation to sound like synth" or TLOU's accoustic guitar were the exception instead of the rule.
There was also examples like the Western themed RDR OST, classics rewritten into Nazi propaganda in TNO and the jazzy L.A. Noire OST. I don't feel like I've ever had to look too hard to find some good OSTs every year.
Contrast that with a western composer like Jesper Kyd, acclaimed for his work on the early Assassins Creed titles, but then Ubi decided to go with a new composer every game. Churning out new scores by new composers for every title can lead to much less memorable music, especially if the new titles are mostly incremental. That cycle impacts the music too.
Why they did this, I'll never know. Kyd is amazing.
 

Parsnip

Member
There was also examples like the Western themed RDR OST, classics rewritten into Nazi propaganda in TNO and the jazzy L.A. Noire OST. I don't feel like I've ever had to look too hard to find some good OSTs every year.

Why they did this, I'll never know. Kyd is amazing.

If Square Enix is smart, they'll get Kyd back for their new Hitman reboot.
Here's hoping.
 
If Square Enix is smart, they'll get Kyd back for their new Hitman reboot.
Here's hoping.
Still can't believe they didn't even reach out to Kyd for Absolution. Has anyone figured out who the trailer music was done by? It's not Kyd, but I actually thought it was pretty good.
 
Japanese composers are typically the ones who get it right, because I'll actually listen to the music outside of the game. Western OSTs typically don't work by themselves since they're designed specifically to accompany the game that they're used in, so they're quickly forgotten once you stop playing the game. IMO, even when played in the game like they're supposed to be, Western OSTs still pale in comparison to a lot of Japanese OSTs.
 
Japan has made the more memorable tunes. I don't think the West is terrible it's just when I think about video game music a lot of Japanese stuff are the first to come to mind.

Growing up and playing mostly Japanese games I think played a role too.
 
Kyd did an interview recently and said most of his friends at IO had moved on, so it was unlikely he would be involved in the new Hitman.
Dammit that sucks.
Japanese composers are typically the ones who get it right, because I'll actually listen to the music outside of the game. Western OSTs typically don't work by themselves since they're designed specifically to accompany the game that they're used in, so they're quickly forgotten once you stop playing the game. IMO, even when played in the game like they're supposed to be, Western OSTs still pale in comparison to a lot of Japanese OSTs.
Are you talking all titles or just AAA level stuff? Because these are broad strokes to paint with.
 

schlynch

Member
If I had to make a Top50 there were probably more japanese soundtracks in it overall, but most of the top spots would be taken by western soundtracks.
 
well that probably means that you play mostly westner games. funny thing is that by saying "S-E" you're saying "dozen of videogames series that had many composers working on them"
yes there is final fantasy, but there's so much more

No, play quite a bit from Japan and the other regions, but the point still stands.
If this was 2000-era, I'd agree. Now, no way.

Japanese composers are typically the ones who get it right, because I'll actually listen to the music outside of the game. Western OSTs typically don't work by themselves since they're designed specifically to accompany the game that they're used in, so they're quickly forgotten once you stop playing the game. IMO, even when played in the game like they're supposed to be, Western OSTs still pale in comparison to a lot of Japanese OSTs.

This isn't true. I can put a playlist together for Destiny right now that solely consists of Western OSTs and it'll sound stellar and fit the game completely.

A significant part of the supposed memorability we have from classic Japanese 8- and 16-bit games simply comes down to sheer repetition. But that kind of simple looped structure just doesn't lend itself that well to how many games work today which expect you to play in much longer sessions. So we have dynamic systems in place working behind the scenes, often mixing between different layers and stems. It's a great way to take better advantage of the interactive nature of games and avoid making the player feel fatigued by the music, but doesn't really lend itself as well to being listened on its own terms, while much older games mostly abided by the pop song structure. All of this applies to old western games as well of course, but given the console-centric demographic of NeoGAF you'll naturally see a lot of folks being hopelessly dismissive over this.

I think a good example of a modern game that tries to implement music in a traditional way but suffers from this is Elder Scrolls Online. It has as big a soundtrack as you'd expect from a big game like that, and the music in itself is really pretty good, but due to the way it's distributed and just plays the track on repeat all the time just makes you get tired of it rather quickly when you play for as long as you often do in MMOs and spending time in one area with a certain set of tracks.

Somewhat, it still depends on the game. Hotline Miami 1 and 2 have the best of both worlds. Same thing with Mass Effect, and Dead Space--the latter tends to be overlooked for its sound and music design, but it's fantastic.
 
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