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[Wickerbasket]

well the thread is about a certain practice, and that practice is seen by many Muslims are a sin/filth etc... it didn't generalize into ANYTHING else about the people

You should read the quote that started the conversation:

Those that have tattoos almost always are involved in other filth though.

That is stereotyping and a pretty stupid thing to say.

Spongebob has already admitted that he doesn't give a shit about the opinions of non-muslims, so I'm not going to waste anymore time. Some people just have shitty opinions.

 

[a Master Ninja]

Why take such a hard stance against body modification only to then endorse penis mutilation? This all stems from "God made you how he wants you" anyway, right?

 

[TimeEffect]

As a non-Muslim, do you actually think I care about your interpretations of Islam?

You question the moon landing and think space exploration is a waste of time.

I think that's more than enough to know not to ever take you seriously, so I don't really care that you think that only Muslims can understand Islam, let alone you.

It is sinful because the Prophet PBUH spoke out against tattoing. Other reasons, such as changing the creation of Allah, are secondary to that since they are not as direct a commandment.

Prosthetics do not fall under changing the creation of Allah, especially if they are for life-saving procedures, such as prosthetic heart valves, but to go out of your way to amputate your fully functional arm or leg so that you can get a prosthetic replacement is something that is not allowed.

Thanks for the response, and that makes sense. I would have a problem with simply upholding what your prophet said as relevant and universal at all times, but I would think that's where we differ. I would think though, that there is a reason why your prophet would say that in the first place. It's not just a whim, right?

I would also think that studying the historical context of religious texts ought to give insight into why people did the things they did.

As for prosthetics, how does it not change the creation of Allah? I understand chopping off your arm to get a cool cyber arm of some kind, but what if you have your hand blown up? This would be done according to Allah's will, right? Wouldn't getting prosthetics challenge that will? Or is it okay to do? Do you think an interpretation can be seen for both sides or is there a very black and white answer?

Pretty good question. I think this would fall into Allah not wanting you to endure hardship and therefore allow it but I'm sure someone could find a passage in the Quran that says it's not ok :lol

Thanks. What is the exact quote anyway? I mean, if it seems to contradict getting prosthetics, I would imagine it would be easy to condemn, but it would also seem impractical.

 

[Spongebob]

You should read the quote that started the conversation:

That is stereotyping and a pretty stupid thing to say.

Spongebob has already admitted that he doesn't give a shit about the opinions of non-muslims, so I'm not going to waste anymore time. Some people just have shitty opinions.

People that have tattoos are unlikely to be Muslims that are adhering to the Sharia. Let's leave it at that.

I disregard the opinion of non-Muslims went it comes to matters dealing with Islam.

 

[Veritigo_X]

People that have tattoos are unlikely to be Muslims that are adhering to the Sharia. Let's leave it at that.

I disregard the opinion of non-Muslims went it comes to matters dealing with Islam.

If a person were to be a Muslim that adhered to the Sharia, could they get a tattoo? Like if they were one of the unlikely ones you mentioned. The way you word makes it seem like it is just an assumption that people that get tattoos are "bad" for reasons outside of getting the tattoo. Just asking out of curiosity since I admittedly don't know a lot about Islam.

 

[NEO0MJ]

They are supposed to be forbidden (most things that do harm to the body are), but it's one of those things that many ignore, like smoking or music. I see a lot of people with tattoos, especially at the gym.

 

[Spongebob]

If a person were to be a Muslim that adhered to the Sharia, could they get a tattoo? Like if they were one of the unlikely ones you mentioned. The way you word makes it seem like it is just an assumption that people that get tattoos are "bad" for reasons outside of getting the tattoo. Just asking out of curiosity since I admittedly don't know a lot about Islam.

I think I phrased my statement badly. By getting a tattoo one is going against the Sharia. What I meant is that it is unlikely that a person gets tattoos, but follows all other aspects of the Sharia.

I find it hard to believe that a person that has tattoos has Taqwa (consciousness of Allah(swt) ).

 

[irfaanator]

People that have tattoos are unlikely to be Muslims that are adhering to the Sharia. Let's leave it at that.

I disregard the opinion of non-Muslims went it comes to matters dealing with Islam.

As a muslim, this is one of the dumbest thing I've heard.

 

[Snowman]

As a muslim, this is one of the dumbest thing I've heard.

you probably don't even have tawqa

 

[Spongebob]

As a muslim, this is one of the dumbest thing I've heard.

Brother, what have I stated that is wrong?

 

[Necromanti]

I didn't realize that the issue of whether tattoos were haraam or not had the potential to be so controversial, or that there were fundamentalists in Bikini Bottom.

Why take such a hard stance against body modification only to then endorse penis mutilation? This all stems from "God made you how he wants you" anyway, right?

Definitions like "body modification" can always be massaged to fit a belief. I'm sure there's a justification for it. (e.g If it makes you less unclean.)

 

[irfaanator]

Brother, what have I stated that is wrong?

you are judging people based on something they've done in the past, and are assuming things about them that you have no idea about. To me this is way worse, than what the person has done.

I know a muslim guy that has a tattoo. Do I think any less of him? no. The guy is more of a muslim than those that didn't.

 

[Spongebob]

I should clarify that I'm not referring to people who revert (convert) to Islam that have tattoos from before.

 

[Brazil]

There sure is something weird going on in this thread.

 

[Ken Masters]

People that have tattoos are unlikely to be Muslims that are adhering to the Sharia. Let's leave it at that.

I disregard the opinion of non-Muslims went it comes to matters dealing with Islam.

Hahaha, wow, ignorance at its finest

 

[Snowman]

I should clarify that I'm not referring to people who revert (convert) to Islam that have tattoos from before.

You really don't even see the possibility that someone could make one "mistake" in getting a tattoo, but then be really great about following everything else properly?

I can tell you really care a lot about your faith, but you must know not every muslim is quite as devout, and that obviously doesn't make them terrible or "filthy" right?

 

[Kraftwerk]

Jesus Christ @Spongebob

 

[Maninthemirror]

Fyi if a muslim does get a tattoo no one should punish him as it was his choice , that is up to God in the afterlife, I am sure spongebob would agree with that ?

 

[Spongebob]

You really don't even see the possibility that someone could make one "mistake" in getting a tattoo, but then be really great about following everything else properly?

No need to put it in quotation marks, it's a grave mistake.

There are definitely people that make that mistake then follow everything properly after making this kind of mistake, there's no blame on them.

What I think is unlikely to exist are people who continue to ignore the ruling on tattoos yet follow the rest of the Sharia.

I can tell you really care a lot about your faith, but you must know not every muslim is quite as devout, and that obviously doesn't make them terrible or "filthy" right?

I'm not calling human beings themselves inherently filthy. I'm judging their actions.

Fyi if a muslim does get a tattoo no one should punish him as it was his choice , that is up to God in the afterlife, I am sure spongebob would agree with that ?

Yes.

 

[Zeouterlimits]

I don't think spongebob's opinion(s) are that surprising, there's always diversity in how scripture is interpreted or how strongly it is adhered to, in any religion.

I've certainly encountered christians who would have a similar level of ... firmness?
Might not be the right word.

 

[Scott32020]

Shi'ite Muslims permit tattoos by the way http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_perspectives_on_tattooing

 

[Glass Rebel]

Thanks. What is the exact quote anyway? I mean, if it seems to contradict getting prosthetics, I would imagine it would be easy to condemn, but it would also seem impractical.

I was only quoting out of memory earlier but it seems this was the verse I was thinking of: 2:185

The month of Ramadhan [is that] in which was revealed the Qur'an, a guidance for the people and clear proofs of guidance and criterion. So whoever sights [the new moon of] the month, let him fast it; and whoever is ill or on a journey - then an equal number of other days. Allah intends for you ease and does not intend for you hardship and [wants] for you to complete the period and to glorify Allah for that [to] which He has guided you; and perhaps you will be grateful.

As you can see, I probably took it a bit out of context. I'm not a devout Muslim and my knowledge of the Islam and the Quran is pretty limited so I'd appreciate if someone else would chime in.

 

[Funky Papa]

I don't think spongebob's opinion(s) are that surprising, there's always diversity in how scripture is interpreted or how strongly it is adhered to, in any religion.

I've certainly encountered christians who would have a similar level of ... firmness?
Might not be the right word.

The proper word is fundamentalism.

 

[ginger ninja]

why are y'all falling for the troll in the thread anyway, given the virgin galactic thread the other day, he is not gonna last long:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=136785550&postcount=36

 

[open_mouth_]

My sincere advice, OP, would be to try to avoid it. Strong hadith indicate that permanently changing your natural appearance in such a way is frowned upon because, I think, humans are God's most beautiful creations just the way they are.

A tattoo may make you happy temporarily, but why risk doing anything that could potentially hinder your forward momentum towards your Creator. Instead, clear your path and run in that direction with haste while asking for forgiveness all along the way. You'll thank yourself later

 

[Spongebob]

The proper word is fundamentalism.

You can label me with whatever labels you want, I don't care.

Some of us actually want to follow the Qur'an and Sunnah. The Muslims that neglect Qur'an and Sunnah aren't model Muslims. The Muslims that try to justify not following Qur'an and Sunnah are even worse.

There is only "Muslim". There are those who transgress and those who fall short.

 

[Mister0079]

I don't think spongebob's opinion(s) are that surprising, there's always diversity in how scripture is interpreted or how strongly it is adhered to, in any religion.

I've certainly encountered christians who would have a similar level of ... firmness?
Might not be the right word.

the word you're looking for is fanaticism.

 

[Spongebob]

the word you're looking for is fanaticism.

If following Islam makes me a "fanatic" according to you, then so be it.

 

[RM8]

Fundamentalism is scary It makes people see others as lowly or wrong instead of just different.

 

[amar212]

Can someone at least quote the verse in the quran that explicitly prohibits someone form body art?

Noone can, because reasons I guess. I would love to read as well.

Interesting thread. Some opinions used as facts, thoughts of people used as dogma.. nice Saturday night.

 

[Spongebob]

Fundamentalism is scary It makes people see others as lowly or wrong instead of just different.

Like I said, I don't care about any labels you give me, but if a "fundamentalist" Muslim is a Muslim that believes that they are on the straight path, then every single Muslim is a fundamentalist.

Noone can, because reasons I guess. I would love to read as well.

Interesting thread. Some opinions used as facts, thoughts of people used as dogma.. nice Saturday night.

The Messenger of Allah (saw) has cursed those who get tattoos.

 

[Sarcastico]

OP, there's nothing in the Quran about it. There are some Hadith condemning it, though. So it depends on how much stock you put into Hadith. Personally, I would avoid tattoos.

 

[amar212]

The Messenger of Allah (saw) has cursed those who get tattoos.

Where? When? Evidence?

 

[Spongebob]

Where? When? Evidence?

"It was narrated that Abu Juhayfah (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: “The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) cursed the one who does tattoos, the one who has a tattoo done, the one who consumes riba (usury or interest) and the one who pays it, and he forbade the price of a dog and the earnings of a prostitute, and he cursed the image-makers." -Sahih al-Bukhari

 

[Mesousa]

"It was narrated that Abu Juhayfah (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: “The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) cursed the one who does tattoos, the one who has a tattoo done, the one who consumes riba (usury or interest) and the one who pays it, and he forbade the price of a dog and the earnings of a prostitute, and he cursed the image-makers." -Sahih al-Bukhari

That is pretty straight forward if you follow the hadith. Bukhari is usually universally accepted as being right on these things.

 

[amar212]

"Al-Bukhari traveled widely throughout the Abbasid empire from the age of 16, collecting those traditions he thought trustworthy.."

Okay, so, he travelled around in 9th century and he listened ordinary people telling their 150 years old (5 generation span) non-written tales and then he subjectivelly picked those he likes (apparently 2500 out of 50000) and now what.. it is "truth"?

What kind of argument is that for Gods sake?

 

[ginger ninja]

You can label me with whatever labels you want, I don't care.

Some of us actually want to follow the Qur'an and Sunnah. The Muslims that neglect Qur'an and Sunnah aren't model Muslims. The Muslims that try to justify not following Qur'an and Sunnah are even worse.

There is only "Muslim". There are those who transgress and those who fall short.

There are two kind of people in this world, those who see the world only as black and white and those you don't..you are the former

You have absolutely zero authority to say who is or who isn't a Muslim or which acts come under Islam and which don't..neither does any other person alive.

Islam isn't anyone's property, no one gets to define it...Earlier in the thread, you called ahmadis non-muslims. Soon you might do the same for Shia muslims. By the end you will be left with a handful of people who you think are the only ones inside the strict boundaries set forth in "your definition" of Islam..but guess what, you don't get to decide that.
Islam is an idea, there are no copyrights on ideas. I can become part of a satanist cult tomorrow and still call myself a Muslim, and there is absolutely jackshit you can do about it. Sure, you can tell yourself all you want that i am not a muslim, but you don't have copyright on the word(or its associated ideas) and you can't stop me from using them.

A religion is a living, evolving thing. Over the ages, As Islam spread, it eventually become part of human civilization and the collective human heritage..Its not up to the original followers anymore to decide what it does and doesn't constitute, and it stopped being that way the day Islam started spreading outside Arabia. Just like it not up to the decedents of the Romans to decide what is and what isn't democracy.

And just fyi, i was also raised muslim. Just a less bigoted one than you though.

 

[dripdripsplash]

This is anecdotal and I apologize beforehand if I say something not true but I've seen a lot of Shia with tattoos.

Is tattoos allowed if you're Shia?

 

[Sarcastico]

This is anecdotal and I apologize beforehand if I say something not true but I've seen a lot of Shia with tattoos.

Is tattoos allowed if you're Shia?

It depends on the Marja(Religious Reference). Some do deem it permissible. I remember that Al-Sistani did.

 

[Spongebob]

There are two kind of people in this world, those who see the world only as black and white and those you don't..you are the former

You have absolutely zero authority to say who is or who isn't a Muslim or which acts come under Islam and which don't..neither does any other person alive.

Islam isn't anyone's property, no one gets to define it...Earlier in the thread, you called ahmadis non-muslims. Soon you might do the same for Shia muslims. By the end you will be left with a handful of people who you think are the only ones inside the strict boundaries set forth in "your definition" of Islam..but guess what, you don't get to decide that.
Islam is an idea, there are no copyrights on ideas. I can become part of a satanist cult tomorrow and still call myself a Muslim, and there is absolutely jackshit you can do about it. Sure, you can tell yourself all you want that i am not a muslim, but you don't have copyright on the word(or its associated ideas) and you can't stop me from using them.

A religion is a living, evolving thing. Over the ages, As Islam spread, it eventually become part of human civilization and the collective human heritage..Its not up to the original followers anymore to decide what it does and doesn't constitute, and it stopped being that way the day Islam started spreading outside Arabia. Just like it not up to the decedents of the Romans to decide what is and what isn't democracy.

And just fyi, i was also raised muslim. Just a less bigoted one than you though.

You can believe whatever you want man. The Qur'an and Sunnah specifically define what a Muslim is and identify actions that take a person out of Islam. As a non-Muslim (I don't care if you were a Muslim before) you can look at things however you like, you can call whoever you want a Muslim. In reality, there is only one Islam, the Islam established and practiced by the Messenger of Allah (saw). People that commit open kufr and shirk can believe all they want that they are Muslims, but Allah (swt) has labeled them as kafir.

For example, those "Muslims" who believe in secularism are in open defiance against Allah (swt) and have been branded as kafir.

 

[Maninthemirror]

Maninthemirror:

In Islam, we already have a category for acts that are not recommended. Those fall under the category of makrooh or disliked, such as having bad breath while going to the mosque or the category of masbooh, which means permissible, but neither recommended nor disliked, such as driving a car. Tattoos are not makrooh, but straight out haraam. The hadeeth in Bukhari cannot be any clearer. The Prophet PBUH did not curse things that were merely disliked.

For example, the Qur'an merely prohibits the consumption of alcohol, but the ahadeeth expand this prohibition to its buying, selling, production, etc. Does that make those actions merely "disliked"?

Only the Shi'as and their ayatollahs claim that any kind of tattoo is permissible, but then again, they reject the saheehayn.

Can you post the hadith specific hadith

 

[Maninthemirror]

You can believe whatever you want man. The Qur'an and Sunnah specifically define what a Muslim is and identify actions that take a person out of Islam. As a non-Muslim (I don't care if you were a Muslim before) you can look at things however you like, you can call whoever you want a Muslim. In reality, there is only one Islam, the Islam established and practiced by the Messenger of Allah (saw). People that commit open kufr and shirk can believe all they want that they are Muslims, but Allah (swt) has labeled them as kafir.

For example, those "Muslims" who believe in secularism are in open defiance against Allah (swt) and have been branded as kafir.

Islam promotes a separation of church and state especially when true Islam is not practiced and especially with the multitude of sects. Which sect of Islam will be the non secular law if there are more than 50 sects in a land ?

And you are using the hardline view of kafir. If anything a Muslim can also be labeled a kafir if he kills by That logic, it's more nuanced than that

 

[Sarcastico]

You can believe whatever you want man. The Qur'an and Sunnah specifically define what a Muslim is and identify actions that take a person out of Islam. As a non-Muslim (I don't care if you were a Muslim before) you can look at things however you like, you can call whoever you want a Muslim. In reality, there is only one Islam, the Islam established and practiced by the Messenger of Allah (saw). People that commit open kufr and shirk can believe all they want that they are Muslims, but Allah (swt) has labeled them as kafir.

For example, those "Muslims" who believe in secularism are in open defiance against Allah (swt) and have been branded as kafir.

I don't think you know what the word Kafir means.

 

[Kraftwerk]

You can believe whatever you want man. The Qur'an and Sunnah specifically define what a Muslim is and identify actions that take a person out of Islam. As a non-Muslim (I don't care if you were a Muslim before) you can look at things however you like, you can call whoever you want a Muslim. In reality, there is only one Islam, the Islam established and practiced by the Messenger of Allah (saw). People that commit open kufr and shirk can believe all they want that they are Muslims, but Allah (swt) has labeled them as kafir.

Good thing that you aren't Allah, and he will be the judge of who is a kafir or not.

It's fundamentalist/fanatics such as yourself that have sullied the religion. A religion in which God specifically states that nobody besides him can determine who is what, and what will be their judgement. Yet people like you act as if you are God incarnate, and label others and state your opinions as fact.

 

[Spongebob]

Islam promotes a separation of church and state especially when true Islam is not practiced

Complete and utter bullshit.

 

[Spongebob]

I don't think you know what the word Kafir means.

Allah (swt) has labeled those who judge by other than what he has revealed as among the kafireen.

 

[Maninthemirror]

Complete and utter bullshit.

Prove me wrong: which interpretation of Islam will you implement in the land? Shia ? Sunni ? Wahhabi ? Which one will be the law if all 3 have different thoughts on different matters

 

[Spongebob]

Prove me wrong: which interpretation of Islam will you implement in the land? Shia ? Sunni ? Wahhabi ? Which one will be the law if all 3 have different thoughts on different matters

Do you even understand the concept of the Khilafah? Do you think the Khilafah is ruled by the laws of kufr?

 

[Maninthemirror]

Do you even understand the concept of the Khilafah? Do you think the Khilafah is ruled by the laws of kufr?

Then you agree that until there is one Islam and all sects are one instead of 73 there can be no Islamic state and thus the only alternative is separation of state and religion

 

[Spongebob]

Good thing that you aren't Allah, and he will be the judge of who is a kafir or not.

It's fundamentalist/fanatics such as yourself that have sullied the religion. A religion in which God specifically states that nobody besides him can determine who is what, and what will be their judgement. Yet people like you act as if you are God incarnate, and label others and state your opinions as fact.

I'm not making the judgements here.

The Quran and Sunnah explicitly state actions which take a person out of Islam.