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[brentech]

Hey the fascist is against unions - what a surpirse.

The problem with unions is that it quite often produces an environment where people don't do anything to go above and beyond. While going above and beyond isn't to be expected of everyone, the people that do strive to be the best aren't rewarded for it and therefore lose the will. Either just slumping it like the rest of the workers or leaving for a better situation.

Everyone wants to complain about certain game companies getting license exclusives and not having any competition to push them to make anything better, and that's essentially what a union does to the employees of most industries.
It does have it's benefits in some areas, but most industries get stuck in a lull when working under a union, and I'm quite sure game designers would as well.

 

[RpgN]

There's someone across the street right now, running a jackhammer in 10° weather (who knows what the wind chill is), and this Rockstar guy is whining that the bosses didn't like people speaking up and he wasn't provided with reference materials for Maya?

Dude needs some perspective.

Did you read the whole article?

I read your next replies. Just because we're in shitty economic state, doesn't mean we should be okay with whatever highter ups do to us. The guy got sweared at, treated like a 10 year old, got almost fired for sending a private email to 3 people (which shows how unhuman it is that they're fucking tracking his emails), no communication in general between all apartments, no help or introduction for a new worker, 12 hours a day on 6 days with no extra compensation or payment etc.

 

[ProfessorLobo]

They can complain all they want, but they're going to look like spoiled pricks with an alarming lack of perspective to anyone that does real work.

So I assume that you've consistently worked 72 hours a week?

 

[Sharkington]

Did you read the whole article?

I read your next replies. Just because we're in shitty economic state, doesn't mean we should be okay with whatever highter ups do to us. The guy got sweared at, treated like a 10 year old, got almost fired for sending a private email to 3 people (which shows how unhuman it is that they're fucking tracking his emails), no communication in general between all apartments, no help or introduction for a new worker, 12 hours a day on 6 days etc.

Current economic state or not, those are not bad problems to have. Everyone has problems, and given the choice, those are the kind I'd prefer.

 

[Sharkington]

So I assume that you've consistently worked 72 hours a week?

Working 100 hours on your ass is preferable to working 40 of actual labor on your feet.

 

[SapientWolf]

They hire talented, passionate people who are willing to sacrifice a piece of their soul to make great games. And they have a reputation for such. So that is what enables them to treat their employees like shit. Any dev worth his salt would rather make a great game in hell than a shitty game in heaven, and R* knows it. In all likelihood, the churn doesn't even effect them because there's always another naive dev ready to take their spot when they leave.

The way the guy bitched at his team over watching youtube videos rubbed me the wrong way though. If you're spending 12 hours at work for 6 days a week you have to find a way to unwind for a few minutes if you want to keep your sanity. There are also certain things you just don't put in an email, and things that make your management look incompetent are one of them. Face to face meetings are better for that.

Hopefully the guy isn't too jaded to still work in the industry, because it sounds like he enjoys his work, despite all the issues he had.

 

[RpgN]

Current economic state or not, those are not bad problems to have. Everyone has problems, and given the choice, those are the kind I'd prefer.

So I have a question for you, when is it too far in your eyes and going against human rights? When is that point where you feel like you had it and you're better off working somewhere else?

 

[CrankyJay]

They can complain all they want, but they're going to look like spoiled pricks with an alarming lack of perspective to anyone that does real work.

And here we go...

 

[Madman]

Honestly, what he wrote isn't that bad. The lack of compensation is the only thing that really stuck out to me, and that is a real problem.

But two other things stuck out to me as well. First, this: "I got a job offer at the west coast company — which came with a 5% increase in salary over my current job. But after much consideration, I turned it down". If it was that bad there and he sent out resumes wanting to leave, why the fuck would you turn down a 5% pay increase? I just don't understand that one. Secondly: "My status as a team lead lasted for about 6 weeks — I think — until I sent what I thought was a private email to 3 people on my team. I talked about how “I knew everyone was working hard, but that it was probably unwise to be watching Youtube videos or browsing websites unrelated to work while at work'". This he says right after him mentioning 6 day work weeks and 12 hour days. I understand where he is coming from, but holy hell people are there twelve fucking hours a day and 6 days a week, and you don't want them to do anything but work the whole time? Wouldn't this add to the shit working conditions that is the center of this piece?

 

[ProfessorLobo]

Working 100 hours on your ass is preferable to working 40 of actual labor on your feet.

If you had the actual skill sets I'm sure Rockstar would love having you.

 

[Sharkington]

So I have a question for you, when is it too far in your eyes and going against human rights? When is that point where you feel like you had it and you're better off working somewhere else?

I would have to see it to know it. I have a line, but nothing in this guy's story crosses it for me.

 

[Lathentar]

They hire talented, passionate people who are willing to sacrifice a piece of their soul to make great games. And they have a reputation for such. So that is what enables them to treat their employees like shit. Any dev worth his salt would rather make a great game in hell than a shitty game in heaven, and R* knows it. In all likelihood, the churn doesn't even effect them because there's always another naive dev ready to take their spot when they leave.

The way the guy bitched at his team over watching youtube videos rubbed me the wrong way though. If you're spending 12 hours at work for 6 days a week you have to find a way to unwind for a few minutes if you want to keep your sanity. There are also certain things you just don't put in an email, and things that make your management look incompetent are one of them. Face to face meetings are better for that.

Hopefully the guy isn't too jaded to still work in the industry, because it sounds like he enjoys his work, despite all the issues he had.

Employees will only stay passionate for so long in hell.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

Working 100 hours on your ass is preferable to working 40 of actual labor on your feet.

This article should probably just be regarded as a case study in IT management. I don't think it's intended to elicit sympathy from hard working, salt of the earth, blue collar individuals. For that matter, the comparison you're drawing is merely a distraction because the same can be said of anyone. For instance, what about that guy using a jackhammer in subzero temperatures? I sure hope he never complains about what he does, because then I'll post some war story of a hero who gave the ultimate sacrifice fighting overseas to serve his country. Where am I going with this? I'm just stating that your contribution is a red herring.

This is probably only really worth caring about if you are a software engineer or are enrolled in some sort of CS/CMIS program. I guess game fans who don't work in IT might care because of their attachment to the Red Dead Redemption/Rock Star, but anyone beyond has no reason to care about this, and weren't the target of the article.

 

[Zenith]

Wait, despite all the horror stories that have come out for years and years there are people still against unions?

 

[CrankyJay]

The way the guy bitched at his team over watching youtube videos rubbed me the wrong way though. If you're spending 12 hours at work for 6 days a week you have to find a way to unwind for a few minutes if you want to keep your sanity.

I agree, but I do wonder how much youtube viewing they were doing.

 

[Sealda]

They can complain all they want, but they're going to look like spoiled pricks with an alarming lack of perspective to anyone that does real work.

If the world thought like you, nothing most things would very very slowly improve if anything improved at all...


"Stop whining about XXXX, look at these guys, they have it way worse then you, so please, sit down in the boat and be quiet do not try to do anything but what you were just doing"

"From now on, everybody needs to work sundays too!" you better not whine and try to change it! Because, there are some guys without any work at all! So , please shut up and sit down in the boat!


"From now on, everybody will get 1 meal a day from the state"
Oh, do not try to change that decision, stop whining! there are people starving in Africa ffs! Sit down and shut up!

 

[XiaNaphryz]

Working 100 hours on your ass is preferable to working 40 of actual labor on your feet.

As someone who's actually done both, that is not true at all.

When I was in the industry, I did get used to regular crunches. I had to make sacrifices elsewhere in my life to do so though. And being used to it doesn't necessarily mean it's easy either - you need a lot more downtime to recover between projects.

Good project planning and management can make a big, big difference. Are you saying people should put up with mediocre/bad management because they're not in a blue collar type of job?

 

[Sharkington]

If the world thought like you, nothing most things would very very slowly improve if anything improved at all...

"Stop whining about XXXX, look at these guys, they have it way worse then you, so please, sit down in the boat and be quiet do not try to do anything but what you were just doing"

Yes, because whining on a blog changes the world. Viva la revolucion!

I'm not saying that people need to sit there and take it if they're really unhappy with what's going on. But if you don't like your job, find another one and shut the fuck up.

 

[catapult37]

This thing "reads" like the "original" translation "to" Final Fantasy "Tactics."

And how did he manage to type "Rockst*r" every single time? That would drive me insane.

 

[LyR]

just google red dead redemption development/work week and you get tons of articles which pretty much say the same

Link (german, use google translator)

it was also one of the most expensive games to produce (pretty much the same budget as GTA4)

but even this articles states that the developers wifes complained and 70 hour work weeks were normal at Rockstar SD...

 

[Tylahedras]

I feel like I always have to take these things with a grain of salt. It's hard to know whether an individual lashing out at company's practices is because the company is generally doing bad things or because that individual has an axe to grind.

Usually I try to assume truth by volume, one person may be a coincidence 5-10 people rarely are.

 

[ZombieSupaStar]

I don't really care what working conditions were like - they delivered the best game of the year and that is all that matters from a consumer's point of view.

probably their last also, hope the price was worth it.

 

[RpgN]

I would have to see it to know it. I have a line, but nothing in this guy's story crosses it for me.

I guess we're coming from different perspectives. I'm in a middle of studying for International Business and Languages and we're being prepared to work in companies and what to expect there. That article, a lot of red flags are on it, unprofessional and laughable. Now this happens in all markets and not just games development, but to thinks that it happens a lot in that particular sector, is worrying, and not to be taken seriously. It shouldn't be encouraged, it's not whinning, a lot of things mentioned there are real problems. You might think otherwise when you experience it for a year and I'm not sure what to think if you don't.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

I'm not saying that people need to sit there and take it if they're really unhappy with what's going on. But if you don't like your job, find another one and shut the fuck up.

But this gets us nowhere. The guy just wrote on his blog about something that he wanted to write about, obviously hoping that some people might also find it interesting. I don't think the point was to get random people to pity his lamentable position. Therefore, following your own advice, I suspect that you don't realize that it could just as easily be turned against you. "Hey, don't like what this guy writes on his blog? Then find another blog to read and shut the fuck up."

Do you see how that doesn't make for fascinating discourse?

 

[perryfarrell]

Sounds like pretty much par for the course as far as corporate work environment is concerned. Perhaps a tiny bit worse than average. What's so shocking about this?

Also, why would I take serious a blog post that spends paragraphs complaining about how nobody paid for his lunch or showed him the restrooms? For cryin out loud...

 

[Instro]

I don't understand how so many of these studios can be such train wrecks internally, these people are responsible for projects that cost tens of millions of dollars or more how this kind of waste and general shittyness is even allowable. Id really be interested to hear how some of the Japanese studios work as well.

 

[Sharkington]

Do you see how that doesn't make for fascinating discourse?

Maybe it doesn't, but it's still good advice. I should probably shut the fuck up and go do something else right now.

 

[RpgN]

But this gets us nowhere. The guy just wrote on his blog about something that he wanted to write about, obviously hoping that some people might also find it interesting. I don't think the point was to get random people to pity his lamentable position. Therefore, following your own advice, I suspect that you don't realize that it could just as easily be turned against you. "Hey, don't like what this guy writes on his blog? Then find another blog to read and shut the fuck up."

Do you see how that doesn't make for fascinating discourse?

Exactly.

This guy sounds like a real professional and knows his work, not to mention him being passionate and wanting to put his work to good use. It sounds like he was sharing his experience and warning new potential workers rather than hoping people to have pitty on him.

 

[cbox]

Working 100 hours on your ass is preferable to working 40 of actual labor on your feet.

You don't know how mind numbing office work is, do you?

I miss my 40 hour outdoor labour job.

 

[1stStrike]

I can sympathize with this guy. I work in the web hosting industry and my previous job was absolutely horrid with employees being treated mostly the same way. I was screamed at over the phone once by my boss as well for something that was in the best interest of the customer - but apparently not for his personal agenda - at the time.

Luckily, I found employment at a much better company and it's crazy how much better it is here - everyone is treated well, my the CEO is really chill and will come and hang out with you, and everyone even wished me a happy birthday on saturday.

 

[CrankyJay]

and everyone even wished me a happy birthday on saturday.

Happy belated birthday!

 

[SapientWolf]

I agree, but I do wonder how much youtube viewing they were doing.

True, but their workflow was so inefficient anyway it would just be another small flame on a burning platform. When upper management is that wrong headed then best thing for a team lead to do is to insulate the developers from them, not draw the manager's attention towards them. Again, a face to face talk instead of email.

There's actually a point where increased work hours lowers productivity due to fatigue and stress causing more errors. They were probably long past that point by the end.

 

[ProfessorLobo]

Yes, because whining on a blog changes the world. Viva la revolucion!

I'm not saying that people need to sit there and take it if they're really unhappy with what's going on. But if you don't like your job, find another one and shut the fuck up.

Or he can go find another one and complain about the working conditions of his old one?

 

[cubicle47b]

I should probably shut the fuck up and go do something else right now.

I think everyone else reading this thread can get behind that.

 

[Shin Johnpv]

Working 100 hours on your ass is preferable to working 40 of actual labor on your feet.

I'm going to disagree completely with this. At least working 40 hours a week of labor on your feet still allows you to have a life outside of work. Your perspective changes alot when you're working 70+ hours a week and don't have a life outside of work. Go a few weeks with out seeing your family or friends at all. You're not going to have time to play any games, see any movies, do anything to relax at all. You life turns into wake up, go to work, come home, go to sleep, rinse and repeat.

Yeah it sucks to be unemployed, I hear you dude on that. As a freelance artist I've gone through a lot of long stretches of unemployment and it sucks. I've also had periods were I've worked for a month and a half straight with 3 days off total, and that sucks just as much.

 

[StuBurns]

I thought it was a really interesting read, and I sympathize with people in similar positions. Ultimately despite an obscene budget, RDR is an incredible product. Clearly Rockstar wasn't happy with the studio's performance as many of the staff got binned once the project ended.

I think it's easy to imagine a creative utopia with games development and other similar creative media industries, but I imagine the kind of situation detailed here is more common than not. It's kind of a bittersweet pill, Rockstar's incredible success affords them the opportunity to be a little shambolic, even their public image and title implies it.

I still believe it'd be better to be part of something great and broken than competent and mediocre though.

 

[1stStrike]

Happy belated birthday!

Hey thanks I'm on the other side of my 20's now - 26. Getting old

You don't know how mind numbing office work is, do you?

I miss my 40 hour outdoor labour job.

I spent 6 years in the air force working on jet engines. All manual labor, tearing them apart, rebuilding them, then eventually going out to the flightline where I spent my time underneath jets all day getting pissed on by jet fuel and oil.

I did, overall, like my job, but would I go back to it? Fuck no.

I work my 160 hours a month now (40 hours a week) from my house as a system administrator fixing server issues and such. My commute to work is about 30 feet and I don't have to deal with a lot of the BS.

I'm quite content sitting on my ass at work. But, my job isn't mind numbing either as I'm expected to troubleshoot and solve complicated issues every day.

 

[Beaulieu]

It's a shame he didn't give more substantial examples on how his superiors screwed him over. Most of the time he just glanced by them.

I agree.
The only examples of "manipulation" he gives are the soda isnt free anymore and they had donuts only every other weeks.

 

[FoxSpirit]

Working 100 hours on your ass is preferable to working 40 of actual labor on your feet.

There are tons of people who'd disagree.

Yes, because whining on a blog changes the world. Viva la revolucion!

I'm not saying that people need to sit there and take it if they're really unhappy with what's going on. But if you don't like your job, find another one and shut the fuck up.

Let's see, our cleaning force consist of time workers which are rented. The lending company treats it's workers like garbage. But there is no place to go. The are good at cleaning, they like cleaning and ffs, someone has to do this job.
But all inexpensive cleaning workforce lenders treat their workers bad, this they have cheap, "competitive" prices.

If I like my job and the things I mention are a big dent on my whole branche, I should make them public for others to watch out for the signs.

 

[XiaNaphryz]

Hey thanks I'm on the other side of my 20's now - 26. Getting old



I spent 6 years in the air force working on jet engines. All manual labor, tearing them apart, rebuilding them, then eventually going out to the flightline where I spent my time underneath jets all day getting pissed on by jet fuel and oil.

I did, overall, like my job, but would I go back to it? Fuck no.

I work my 160 hours a month now (40 hours a week) from my house as a system administrator fixing server issues and such. My commute to work is about 30 feet and I don't have to deal with a lot of the BS.

I'm quite content sitting on my ass at work. But, my job isn't mind numbing either as I'm expected to troubleshoot and solve complicated issues every day.

You're comparing 40 hours a week in an office to your Air Force time though. I'd agree 40 hours in a crappy office job is preferable to 40 hours of manual labor. But he was talking about 100 hours a week vs 40. Throw in enough overtime to that office job, and you'll start thinking twice. Maybe not at 50, or even 60, but a couple of months of non-stop 70-80+ hour weeks will get you thinking.

 

[CrankyJay]

I spent 6 years in the air force working on jet engines. All manual labor, tearing them apart, rebuilding them, then eventually going out to the flightline where I spent my time underneath jets all day getting pissed on by jet fuel and oil.

When I was contracting with the AirForce my impression was quite the opposite. Lots of people in uniform just standing around waiting for me to get stuff fixed. :lol

 

[Sharkington]

There are tons of people who'd disagree.

And your sentence is based on the same concept as mine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbole

 

[TheOddOne]

Well I can relate to his story, I'm having the same problems with my government internship. I can write some shit up that would disgust people. Still 2 more months of this fucking hell.

 

[1stStrike]

You're comparing 40 hours a week in an office to your Air Force time though. I'd agree 40 hours in a crappy office job is preferable to 40 hours of manual labor. But he was talking about 100 hours a week vs 40. Throw in enough overtime to that office job, and you'll start thinking twice. Maybe not at 50, or even 60, but a couple of months of non-stop 70-80+ hour weeks will get you thinking.

I really didn't work that much over time in the AF though. People seem to think that if you're in the military you work 7 days a week, 14 hours a day and you're never allowed off base (yes, people really think this).

I generally worked 40 - 45 hours a week with a weekend duty once a month where I'd come in and if there was work, I'd work, if there wasn't work then we'd clean up under the jets and go home.

During normal shifts if things were hard broke, or we were behind, we'd work 12 hour shifts until we were caught up, but this only happened maybe a couple days a month on average (though there was one month where we were pretty much all on 12 hour shifts).

Even when I was in Korea I didn't work a lot of 12 hour shifts. My hours averaged about 45 - 55 hours a week there.

My job after the military was 60 - 70 hours a week, and I definitely got burned out. I stopped working overtime after a while, but that was because of what I was expected to do.

The different in the two jobs:

Previous: I worked phones, had to assist customers with complicated technical issues over them, did tickets, had to monitor and resolve server issues (within 5 - 10 minutes) and occasionally had to do chats as well.

Current: I do tickets and resolve customer issues. Phones and chats are handled by separate departments, everything is divided up and structured properly, and both customers and employees are all much happier at this company.

I'd gladly work overtime here as I actually enjoy myself when I'm working. A job doesn't always have to be miserable - you should be able to find something you can actually enjoy. It took me 8 years, but I've finally found mine.

When I was contracting with the AirForce my impression was quite the opposite. Lots of people in uniform just standing around waiting for me to get stuff fixed. :lol

Depends on what you were doing and who you were working for. On the flightline we did have some stuff that only contractors could do, so we'd have to sit there and wait for them, and then when they were done we'd grab the engine, finish it up and install it in the aircraft.

 

[ToxicAdam]

And your sentence is based on the same concept as mine.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperbole

No, it's based on real life experience. It doesn't matter what you do, if you are working 80+ hours somewhere it begins to degrade your quality of life and mental state. Even small chores like doing laundry, paying bills or cooking food become a herculean task because you have such a small window of time everyday to complete the mundane tasks. Relationships begin to crumble (friends, family, etc) as you don't have the time to socialize anymore. You begin to even lose track of yourself as the weeks and months pass by and you are not really growing as a person (through introspection, self-reflection, etc).

There is a reason why the phrase 'burn-out" exists. There's a reason why governments have mandated that workers only work X amount of hours a week and fiscally punish those that do not adhere to a standardized work week.

 

[Animator]

Working 100 hours on your ass is preferable to working 40 of actual labor on your feet.

Hahah no its not. Creative work is way more draining than physical work.

R* is a shit place to work at. I have a ton of friends who bailed out of there and went to greener pastures.

 

[CrankyJay]

So given the extended schedule, did RDR end up making R* money or costing them?

 

[Sharkington]

No, it's based on real life experience. It doesn't matter what you do, if you are working 80+ hours somewhere it begins to degrade your quality of life and mental state. Even small chores like doing laundry, paying bills or cooking food become a herculean task because you have such a small window of time everyday to complete the mundane tasks. Relationships begin to crumble (friends, family, etc) as you don't have the time to socialize anymore. You begin to even lose track of yourself as the weeks and months pass by and you are not really growing as a person (through introspection, self-reflection, etc).

There is a reason why the phrase 'burn-out" exists. There's a reason why governments have mandated that workers only work X amount of hours a week and fiscally punish those that do not adhere to a standardized work week.

I didn't think I would need to explain that my comparison was hyperbole, but I can admit that it was a poorly-worded post, and that I should have gone with a number much higher than 100 to leave no room for doubt.

But what I REALLY didn't think was that anyone would still not get it even after coming right out and stating that it was hyperbole. Jesus.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

Hahah no its not. Creative work is way more draining than physical work.

I don't think this is the right position to take. After all, what are we talking about in terms of "creative work," and what are we talking about in terms of "physical work." They don't really give adequate context for which type of work is better or worse. However, I will agree if you were factoring in his comment about length of work weeks. Unless you are just really passionate and driven in regards to your current task, 100 hour work weeks are going to drain the life out of you, regardless of what the work entails.

 

[StuBurns]

So given the extended schedule, did RDR end up making R* money or costing them?

It made them money. Unless they spent a very unusual amount on marketing.