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[I AM JOHN!]

So given the extended schedule, did RDR end up making R* money or costing them?

Pachter said it needed to sell something like five million units to turn a profit. It's sold eight. Still, despite being the second biggest game of the year, think about how much better it could've done if it didn't have a budget of $100 million and take three or four years. Rockstar's business model is shockingly unsustainable, and the minute they have a flop, they're done (and I wouldn't be surprised if that flop is LA Noire).

 

[MC Safety]

Wait, despite all the horror stories that have come out for years and years there are people still against unions?

People aren't anti-union as much as they are anti- union abuses.

See: The Simpsons, "Last Exit to Springfield''


" You can't treat the working man this way. One day, we'll form a union and get the fair and equitable treatment we deserve! Then we'll go too far, and get corrupt and shiftless, and the Japanese will eat us alive!"

 

[Mooreberg]

This doesn't seem like anything new. At the very least I'd be glad my extensive effort went into a product that was appreciated. It has to be even worse for people who slave away at games that are churned out annually and have to answer to people with no creative vision at all.

I wouldn't be surprised if that flop is LA Noire.

Agreed 100%, but didn't Sony already foot a substantial fraction of the bill on that turkey? The game had been in development for years before Rockstar had anything to do with it.

 

[theBishop]

It would be a very small union, as projects would flee the US to Canada, China, Russia, India, Singapore, and various other parts of the world even faster than they have been.

Just like we see in the film and sports industries! All these crazy Russian, Chinese, and Indian films have completely overtaken Hollywood in the US. I don't understand it!

 

[StuBurns]

LA Noire would never turn a profit based on both the budgets combined, but the Sony one is written off, I imagine it'll be fine.

 

[Strummerjones]

I don't understand how so many of these studios can be such train wrecks internally, these people are responsible for projects that cost tens of millions of dollars or more how this kind of waste and general shittyness is even allowable.

Yes, this is what's significant. All this "hur all jobs r bad wat is his problem" nonsense is ignoring the fact that videogames are increasingly becoming the biggest, most expensive entertainment medium out there, and yet seem to be the most poorly managed. It's even more inexplicable when you consider we aren't talking about the world of Hollywood full of overpaid egotists or where some elaborate set in deepest Cambodia can get washed away by a freak tidal surge costing a company billions - it's some guys sitting at desks. Yet the whole culture at many of the biggest games companies seems to be completely untenable with giants toppling left right and centre as a result.

Assuming this guy's story is all true, people were shown to be working against their own interests at every single level of the organisational hierachy, grasping at the short term rewards every time and ultimately costing themselves and the company hugely in the long term. This isn't a "can't fail" bank or some bloated government bureaucracy, it's a for-profit company. Sure, there are bad companies in any sector, but the games industry is built on a boom-or-bust business model with some of its brightest lights seemingly existing in a culture of institutional wastefulness. How much longer can this possibly go on?

 

[theBishop]

I'm against having to pay a monthly union due to a bureaucracy just so I can be "represented" in a way where only a select few individuals will pursue a certain agenda which might or might not be in my individual best interest.

What people need to do be more open about speaking out when things are wrong, it's a matter of the working culture everywhere, that will take years to change. In a way people do speak out by leaving the company and pursuing employment elsewhere, but big corporations in general are deathly afraid of people organizing into unions and will have no qualms letting an entire group of staff go over a period of time by firing the ring leaders and blackballing the remaining employees just to quash any kind of dissent before it ever materializes.

One exists to represent your interests as a worker. The other, you sell your labor time in a market where your labor time falls dramatically on the wrong side of the supply/demand equation. Hence the 80 hour weeks, lack of job support, etc.

And of course management would rather operate in a situation where they have all the bargaining chips. It's a fundamentally antagonistic relationship. The bosses want more of your labor time without paying more, and the workers want fewer hours, more paid time off, better working conditions, etc. Is this a surprise to anyone? If workers don't engage in a struggle, they get the situation they have now.

 

[beat]

Yeah I am not sure what is so confusing about it to people. That is him saying "This is what the doubters or Rockstar themselves will say about what I have written."

I took it to be basically a pre-emption on how R* headquarters would react. It's kinda sad how many people here didn't even get that. (I will grant that his grotesque abuse of quotation marks is off-putting; I'm not saying he's a great writer overall.)

So working for a videogame company is pretty much the same as working anywhere else?

I still don't get why people in this industry think they're special.

Everywhere else has mandatory indefinite 72 hours/week crunch? I've worked at more than one dev with pretty regular 40 hours weeks. It's called being professional and having some self respect.

ITT: serfs explain why they like being serfs. (or they think they're the special and unique snowflakes that would have gotten a 40 hour work week, health care, and vacation time all on their own in the Industrial Revolution days...)

It would be a very small union, as projects would flee the US to Canada, China, Russia, India, Singapore, and various other parts of the world even faster than they have been.

Oh! It's the lack of unions that have kept publishers from outsourcing even more! We better keep that up then.

 

[I AM JOHN!]

LA Noire would never turn a profit based on both the budgets combined, but the Sony one is written off, I imagine it'll be fine.

Isn't the Rockstar budget currently at $70 million without advertising?

 

[StuBurns]

Isn't the Rockstar budget currently at $70 million without advertising?

Really? If it is, I doubt LA Noire will break even. Even if they only put $20M to marketing which is below the norm for Rockstar's major releases, it'd need 3.4M units to break even, without the additional quarter of budget costs. But who knows, RDR blew up, maybe they can sell it right. I don't think it has the appeal of something like being a cowboy but who knows.

Godspeed gents, I think it looks like an incredible game.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

Everywhere else has mandatory indefinite 72 hours/week crunch? I've worked at more than one dev with pretty regular 40 hours weeks. It's called being professional and having some self respect.

Yeah, I don't really understand the notion that ludicrous work weeks are par for the course with any corporate positions. Mind you, I think everyone has worked long days/weeks/months at some point either due to pressure from management, personal responsibility, or team commitment. However, I think for most ordinary positions, these should be exceptions and not the rule unless you are just choosing to do so out of personal drive, or because the company is offering paid overtime. "70 hour work weeks with no compensation beyond salary? Pffttt... welcome to the real world, son" should not be an expected response.

 

[Mooreberg]

I guess it goes without saying that working in game development isn't a good idea if you want to actually have some time to play games. I'd probably want to throw a frisbee at a tree after spending so much time in front of a computer.

 

[Pai Pai Master]

Wait so L.A. Noire is paid for in part by Sony? What happens in that case in regards to revenue from the 360 version?

Or is that what Sony paid to get Agent exclusivity?

 

[I AM JOHN!]

Wait so L.A. Noire is paid for in part by Sony? What happens in that case in regards to revenue from the 360 version?

The story goes that Sony spent $40 million on LA Noire when they were going to publish it. When Rockstar took over publishing (and probably IP) rights, instead of buying out Sony's $40 million, they agreed to give them an exclusive (Agent).

Or is that what Sony paid to get Agent exclusivity?

Basically.

 

[beat]

The story goes that Sony spent $40 million on LA Noire when they were going to publish it. When Rockstar took over publishing (and probably IP) rights, instead of buying out Sony's $40 million, they agreed to give them an exclusive (Agent).

Wow, Sony overpaid.

 

[StuBurns]

Wow, Sony overpaid.

For an exclusive AAA title from Rockstar North? They should have paid double.

It's 1.5M units of profit, Rockstar are losing more than that by not putting it on 360. I imagine Sony are also co-marketing.

 

[sajj316]

For an exclusive AAA title from Rockstar North? They should have paid double.

It's 1.5M units of profit, Rockstar are losing more than that by not putting it on 360. I imagine Sony are also co-marketing.

Agreed. At the end of the day, both games will be out on their system.

Regarding dev conditions at R*, you'd be surprised how many dev departments are the same. Production release for something behind schedule almost begs for 60-70 work weeks including weekends. Our system lead practically slept in the office before the release of our software.

Misallocations, over/under budgeting, delays, etc .. are symptoms of mismanagement and a culture there that already had set a very bad precedence. This is not new to software engineering. I've been fighting that culture for over 5 years now at my firm.

 

[1stStrike]

Agreed. At the end of the day, both games will be out on their system.

Regarding dev conditions at R*, you'd be surprised how many dev departments are the same. Production release for something behind schedule almost begs for 60-70 work weeks including weekends. Our system lead practically slept in the office before the release of our software.

Misallocations, over/under budgeting, delays, etc .. are symptoms of mismanagement and a culture there that already had set a very bad precedence. This is not new to software engineering. I've been fighting that culture for over 5 years now at my firm.

I remember reading that most of the devs that worked on MGS4 were crashing in their offices regularly throughout the process. I think things are a bit more hardcore in Japan though... based on what I've heard I'm not sure the average american game developer would survive in their work place.

I have no experience though, just based on things I've read and seen, so I could be completely off.

 

[-Pyromaniac-]

Wow, Sony overpaid.

Rockstar North has a reputation to uphold, they won't use his situation as an opportunity to put up some crap and get this deal over with, it will be BIG.

Also they've been talking up a storm about Agent, I think they even said the words spiritual successor to GTA. They didn't overpay at all.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

Regarding dev conditions at R*, you'd be surprised how many dev departments are the same. Production release for something behind schedule almost begs for 60-70 work weeks including weekends. Our system lead practically slept in the office before the release of our software.

Yeah, I don't think anyone is suggesting that this case study is in any way unheard of in the workplace. However, I do think there is something wrong (and this doesn't apply to you) with some of the complacent responses that suggest that this is commonplace and expected. Just because it does happen doesn't mean it should, and calling the guy a whiner just serves as acceptance of ludicrous expectations from management.

 

[sajj316]

I remember reading that most of the devs that worked on MGS4 were crashing in their offices regularly throughout the process. I think things are a bit more hardcore in Japan though... based on what I've heard I'm not sure the average american game developer would survive in their work place.

I have no experience though, just based on things I've read and seen, so I could be completely off.

If you have schedule, and you need to meet that schedule .. it might require that you put extra hours. Now, I've always given credit to the guys that put their time in. Extra day or two off in addition to their current vacation balance. That's just me. Incentives allow for you as a manager to ask your guys to put in the extra effort. You just need to be a responsible manager to first .. not put your team in that position. If you are though .. and in most cases because its top down changes in plans, you need to be creative and get the most out of your team. Risk-Reward here seemed out of whack (by reading the comments). The risk was too much for very little reward and in this case .. one's mental health.

 

[sajj316]

Yeah, I don't think anyone is suggesting that this case study is in any way unheard of in the workplace. However, I do think there is something wrong (and this doesn't apply to you) with some of the complacent responses that suggest that this is commonplace and expected. Just because it does happen doesn't mean it should, and calling the guy a whiner just serves as acceptance of ludicrous expectations from management.

Agreed. What I read is unhealthy. Now, I'm not sure if everything that was written indeed happened but I wouldn't be surprised if it did. This type of condition is unacceptable, in ANY industry.

 

[FoneBone]

Of course anyone can write anything but it fits with the fact that Max Payne 3 disappeared from Take Two Release Schedule for 2011/2012.

Also, I've heard rumors that only a handful of people who worked on Bully are still at the studio.

 

[CrazedArabMan]

I know the feeling going from Max to Maya, started off with Max, and just took a class on Maya, 2 way different programs by far.

 

[StuBurns]

Rockstar North has a reputation to uphold, they won't use his situation as an opportunity to put up some crap and get this deal over with, it will be BIG.

Also they've been talking up a storm about Agent, I think they even said the words spiritual successor to GTA. They didn't overpay at all.

To be honest, I think Agent will come too late (if at all) to make any difference in terms of install base. GTA3 mattered because it was in 2001, the early peak of the console, there were still five years to ride those timed exclusives. Agent is a nice get, but it's not going to make any difference other than the fact it'll probably mean Sony tech will be bending over backwards and hopefully it'll raise PS3 product quality out of Rockstar in general.

Agent was in production last generation too. I really can't wait to see what it is.

 

[Ninja Kn1ght]

There was a lot of talk of trouble at the studio during the RDR development so this doesn't come as much of a surprise to me. I was pretty shocked that RDR turned out as well as it did. I doubt things are like this at R* North.

 

[GillianSeed79]

The first half made him sound like douche bag with the part about being mad that the one company that flew him out for an interview didn't buy him lunch and the whole "team bonding", looking out for a new employee bullshit. Most jobs are trial by fire. You do the work you were hired to do or go home. That said, the second half of the post sounds honest and believable. It also fits with complaints about Rockstar being horribly mismanaged.

 

[theBishop]

Agreed. What I read is unhealthy. Now, I'm not sure if everything that was written indeed happened but I wouldn't be surprised if it did. This type of condition is unacceptable, in ANY industry.

Worker's solidarity! The public transit workers in New York will shut down the city until Rockstar's workers get decent working standards.

 

[sajj316]

Worker's solidarity! The public transit workers in New York will shut down the city until Rockstar's workers get decent working standards.

Funny you said that as my father works for the MTA He'd be down! :lol :lol

 

[Pai Pai Master]

Interesting situation regarding Agent. Wouldn't be shocked to see it as an early PS4 title at this point. It would probably benefit Sony more than if it was released as a late-cycle PS3 game.

 

[OldJadedGamer]

Interesting situation regarding Agent. Wouldn't be shocked to see it as an early PS4 title at this point. It would probably benefit Sony more than if it was released as a late-cycle PS3 game.

Yeah, I see this as a Donkey Kong Country for the SNES/God of War 2 for the PS2 situation where the game gets released as the last huge game for the system while newer systems are just hitting the market.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

The first half made him sound like douche bag with the part about being mad that the one company that flew him out for an interview didn't buy him lunch

He wasn't mad. He noted that it was odd. And he's right. That's not to say that every job interview should come with a free lunch for your trouble, but if they're actually inviting you out to lunch, it's pretty much understood that the bill will be on them. It's a simple matter of etiquette. It wasn't meant to be read as "these bastards screwed me out of $10" in as much as it was him thinking that the person(s) seemed aloof about commonly understood practices.

 

[practice02]

It reads like a girls diary while she is dating a guy who is in it just for the sex and she doesn't realize it.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

It reads like a girls diary while she is dating a guy who is in it just for the sex and she doesn't realize it.

Which in turn reads like what, exactly?

 

[beat]

Also, I've heard rumors that only a handful of people who worked on Bully are still at the studio.

Turnover during Bully's production was immense. That's really not usual for game development. Even when things are at regular levels of badness, most people stick it out and then leave en masse after it ships.

To be honest, I think Agent will come too late (if at all) to make any difference in terms of install base.

Exactly. Maybe Sony was happy to be rid of an over-budget project, but $40M for an Agent exclusive makes a varying amount of sense depending on when they thought they were going to get it. In retrospect - and maybe Sony did do this - the deal should have required givebacks past certain dates.

 

[theBishop]

Funny you said that as my father works for the MTA He'd be down! :lol :lol

Be careful outing your dad as a pinko! :lol

The day after that happened would be very interesting.

 

[Jin]

Turnover during Bully's production was immense. That's really not usual for game development. Even when things are at regular levels of badness, most people stick it out and then leave en masse after it ships..

Why is it usual for game developers to leave en masse after the game ships? I'm curious. Do they get burned out and just go to another game company? Wouldn't it just repeat itself?

 

[StuBurns]

Turnover during Bully's production was immense. That's really not usual for game development. Even when things are at regular levels of badness, most people stick it out and then leave en masse after it ships.


Exactly. Maybe Sony was happy to be rid of an over-budget project, but $40M for an Agent exclusive makes a varying amount of sense depending on when they thought they were going to get it. In retrospect - and maybe Sony did do this - the deal should have required givebacks past certain dates.

In regards to Bully, not sure if this is correct (it could be completely bollocks) but at one time they were working on a SKU for the original Xbox too but they were behind and over budget so they got rid of a fair amount of staff and the Xbox SKU to try and stream down the pipeline and get out. But again, Bully like RDR is an incredible game. It might have hurt in a number of areas, but they made something great.

As for Agent, I do agree, I guess it depends how you look at it. I think Sony paid more than would benefit them, however I still don't think it's enough based on what they're getting. Seems like it's bad for both sides really. But this is based on the rumors I've read, I'm sure if we knew everything aspect of that deal, it'd seem a lot better for both sides.

 

[CrankyJay]

Why is it usual for game developers to leave en masse after the game ships? I'm curious. Do they get burned out and just go to another game company? Wouldn't it just repeat itself?

Maybe there's a bonus check after it ships and first week results are in?

 

[practice02]

Which in turn reads like what, exactly?

A person who got let go after development

 

[Kong Fisso]

i didn't read the part where the blogger wrote "this is a problem unique to my industry, also i am special"

I can't seem to find this part either. Would someone point it out?

I don't get the apologists. He's just sharing his story from his time at Rockstar. Nowhere does he state, that people doesn't get overworked in other industries. And because they are, that doesn't mean he shouldn't speak up.

These stories might let prospective employees understand the working conditions better. How is that bad? If you're not interested in the working conditions of Rockstar San Diego, don't read the fucking blog. Apologists are saying one shouldn't speak up, potentially warning others, if a company treats you like shit. What kind of masochistic, macho bullshit is that?

 

[CrankyJay]

I can't seem to find this part either. Would someone point it out?

I don't get the apologists. He's just sharing his story from his time at Rockstar. Nowhere does he state, that people doesn't get overworked in other industries. And because they are, that doesn't mean he shouldn't speak up.

These stories might let prospective employees understand the working conditions better. How is that bad? If you're not interested in the working conditions of Rockstar San Diego, don't read the fucking blog. I don't get you apologists. You're saying one shouldn't speak up, potentially warning others, if a company treats you like shit. What kind of masochistic, macho bullshit is that?

Apologists would be those defending the blogger.

 

[Kong Fisso]

Apologists would be those defending the blogger.

Not the ones defending shitty working conditions with uncompensated overtime, because "stfu stop whining"?

 

[Steve Youngblood]

A person who got let go after development

Ha! But what I was getting at was asking for clarification so that when I agreed and said "totally," I'd know if we were in agreement about Rockstar being awesome alpha males who know how to land conquest after conquest on naive targets by laying on the right amount of charm, or if we're agreeing that Rockstar is the immature jerk who preys upon women who mistake their bravado for sincerity and wind up hurt afterward?

Or, more succinctly, I was calling your comparison uninsightful.

 

[CrankyJay]

Not the ones defending shitty working conditions with uncompensated overtime, because "stfu stop whining"?

Ah...I guess those would be industry apologists. I just thought the term applied to the blogger in this instance.

 

[MiniBossBattle]

Can we all just agree that we love Maya and hate 3D StudioMax?

 

[beat]

Why is it usual for game developers to leave en masse after the game ships? I'm curious. Do they get burned out and just go to another game company? Wouldn't it just repeat itself?

I think it's because most people want to stick it out and ship the game; they feel a sense of responsibility to everyone else there. And then after that, well, it's often easier to get a raise or promotion elsewhere. On the other hand, projects at outside companies don't necessarily start on the schedule you'd prefer, so not everyone can do this; I'm just saying that's the (usual) ideal situation at most companies where the job satisfaction is between roughly 40-80%, say.

I may have overstated. I don't mean it's usual that 80% (say) leave right after a project, but in my experience it is usual that people quit less often during the last 5 months and then there's a spike after it ships. There's also a spike in vacations as people take their time off or time off in lieu for all their OT, and then there can be layoffs depending on how much work is even available, so there's two more reasons why many offices feel a bit empty after a project ships. But I genuinely feel the deferred quitting is a big one.


StuBurns, my memory may be fading, but I don't think anyone was let go when the Xbox SKU of Bully was cut.

 

[StuBurns]

StuBurns, my memory may be fading, but I don't think anyone was let go when the Xbox SKU of Bully was cut.

I'm sure you're right. I do remember reading that, but I didn't hear it first hand or anything, and there are certainly more rumors than truths, which is why I prefaced it.

 

[catapult37]

He wasn't mad. He noted that it was odd. And he's right. That's not to say that every job interview should come with a free lunch for your trouble, but if they're actually inviting you out to lunch, it's pretty much understood that the bill will be on them. It's a simple matter of etiquette. It wasn't meant to be read as "these bastards screwed me out of $10" in as much as it was him thinking that the person(s) seemed aloof about commonly understood practices.

So glad that people like you are commenting and responding in this thread. I'm going to guess that many of the detractors in here are not old enough to have ever actually interviewed for a job, much less held one. Anyone who is out of school would agree that the lunch bit, for instance, was certainly outside of normal interview etiquette.

 

[Zoe]

I think it's because most people want to stick it out and ship the game;

Not to mention lots of job postings specifically look for shipped games on people's resumes.