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[Derrick01]

Haven't played DX1 yet, I have played DX:HR. I'd say even DX:HR is quite a bit better than Bloodlines. Though I only played Bloodlines for 7 hours. :X

Wondering what people didn't like about HR. Aesthetically it was different, but still cool. Gameplay was great, stealth was excellent, weapons felt great. Good to great voice acting. Interesting story(though they dropped the ball in the end). The only real fault are the boss battles, but that's a small spec on an overall great game. Maybe the problem is that it didn't feel like a RPG?

It was a bit too consolized for my tastes, which wouldn't have been a problem if it wasn't in a series with the greatest game of all time in Deus Ex 1. The level design was smaller and simpler, there weren't nearly as many secret areas or well placed secrets and the map gave most everything away. The powers ruined the game about 60% of the way through because of the unbalanced XP system and it hurt the stealth in the game because the powers made it too easy. While the stealth was better than 1 it was still a sub par stealth game as a whole.

The overall gameplay was simplified too. No lockpicking, no skills, no ATMs to hack. Exploration was pretty weak and it boiled down to finding the locked door to hack or the vent in each and every room. It was a good game for modern standards but compared to Deus Ex 1 it fails.

 

[HamPster PamPster]

I'm so proud of you GAF, you put FF:Tactics into the top 10

I knew Xenoblade had a vocal fanbase on GAF but I didn't realize people considered it top 5 of all time material. I'm not making a judgement on its quality (I haven't played it) I just didn't realize it was so well regarded.

This thread also reminds me I should pick up Alpha Protocol at the end of the steam sale.

 

[2San]

- Subpar animation (Bloodlines completely stomps HR in that department)
- Counterintuitive and arbitrary ending choices
- Unexplained character motivations
- Broken hacking mechanics

Eh the animation was decent enough. The rest of the complaints are relatively minor compared to it's strengths imo.

It was a bit too consolized for my tastes, which wouldn't have been a problem if it wasn't in a series with the greatest game of all time in Deus Ex 1. The level design was smaller and simpler, there weren't nearly as many secret areas or well placed secrets and the map gave most everything away. The powers ruined the game about 60% of the way through because of the unbalanced XP system and it hurt the stealth in the game because the powers made it too easy. While the stealth was better than 1 it was still a sub par stealth game as a whole.

The overall gameplay was simplified too. No lockpicking, no skills, no ATMs to hack. Exploration was pretty weak and it boiled down to finding the locked door to hack or the vent in each and every room. It was a good game for modern standards but compared to Deus Ex 1 it fails.

I wouldn't call it a sub par a stealth game. It's up on par with the MGS games and the original splinter cell imo(I mention these games since I actually played them). I admit some of the powers almost felt like cheating, but it was still good fun(I went for a non lethal run, which made the game a bitch at times). I haven't played DX1, but based on it's own merits the game seems ranked way too low. Then we have bloodlines, which imo was a damn janky game with the actual combat/stealth and such feeling half baked. The story might have saved it, but I quit the game, because when you weren't interacting with other NPC's the game was just meh.
edit:

I loved Deus Ex: HR, but I think I would agree some extent with these criticisms. It also didn't help that for me(and I assume others) at least I am not quite sure if Deus Ex: HR is even an RPG is why I didn't consider it for me list. On the subject I am now arguing with myself about the first one(which was on my list) being an RPG now as well.

This I can understand. I honestly played the game as a stealth/action game.

 

[Almighty]

It was a bit too consolized for my tastes, which wouldn't have been a problem if it wasn't in a series with the greatest game of all time in Deus Ex 1. The level design was smaller and simpler, there weren't nearly as many secret areas or well placed secrets and the map gave most everything away. The powers ruined the game about 60% of the way through because of the unbalanced XP system and it hurt the stealth in the game because the powers made it too easy. While the stealth was better than 1 it was still a sub par stealth game as a whole.

The overall gameplay was simplified too. No lockpicking, no skills, no ATMs to hack. Exploration was pretty weak and it boiled down to finding the locked door to hack or the vent in each and every room. It was a good game for modern standards but compared to Deus Ex 1 it fails.

I loved Deus Ex: HR, but I think I would agree some extent with these criticisms. It also didn't help that for me(and I assume others) I am not quite sure if Deus Ex: HR is even an RPG is why I didn't consider it for me list. On the subject I am now arguing with myself about the first one(which was on my list) being an RPG now as well.

 

[Grief.exe]

I'm so proud of you GAF, you put FF:Tactics into the top 10

I knew Xenoblade had a vocal fanbase on GAF but I didn't realize people considered it top 5 of all time material. I'm not making a judgement on its quality (I haven't played it) I just didn't realize it was so well regarded.

This thread also reminds me I should pick up Alpha Protocol at the end of the steam sale.

Keep in mind Skyrim was top 5 last year and it fell over 20 spots.

I don't think Xenoblade will fall quite that far, but it will fall some spots. To be honest, Syrim is barley an RPG and a mediocre game overall, I think people soured once they had taken a year to look back on it.

I loved Deus Ex: HR, but I think I would agree some extent with these criticisms. It also didn't help that for me(and I assume others) I am not quite sure if Deus Ex: HR is even an RPG is why I didn't consider it for me list. On the subject I am now arguing with myself about the first one(which was on my list) being an RPG now as well.

People consider Mass Effect 2 and Skyrim RPGS. It could be argued that Deus Ex: HR actually has deeper RPG systems than both of those games.

 

[KingKong]

It was a bit too consolized for my tastes, which wouldn't have been a problem if it wasn't in a series with the greatest game of all time in Deus Ex 1. The level design was smaller and simpler, there weren't nearly as many secret areas or well placed secrets and the map gave most everything away. The powers ruined the game about 60% of the way through because of the unbalanced XP system and it hurt the stealth in the game because the powers made it too easy. While the stealth was better than 1 it was still a sub par stealth game as a whole.

The overall gameplay was simplified too. No lockpicking, no skills, no ATMs to hack. Exploration was pretty weak and it boiled down to finding the locked door to hack or the vent in each and every room. It was a good game for modern standards but compared to Deus Ex 1 it fails.

Agreed. One thing that really exemplifies the difference for me is how in the original, Jock/Paul die unless you act to save them without the game prompting you, but in HR

Spoiler

the game asks "are you sure you want to leave?" if you don't go save the pilot

in what was an obvious nod to the original

 

[Monroeski]

Based on the list, I'd say that it's more because there's a heap of jRPG gamers coming out of the woodwork for the voting (e.g. top 5 all Japanese). Certainly not broadly representative, but then again when has GAF ever been that. If the top 25 were all Japanese games that wouldn't bother me, but so many wRPGs making it over DX, and DXHR barely cracking 100 are big disappointments. Again I know I shouldn't be feeling anything because its just internet opinions, but damnit, I'm human.

Vampire Bloodlines beating DX1 is a pretty big wtf moment, and both of the recent fallouts topping it is probably indicative of nothing more than generational bias (e.g. many people who didn't play DX because of their age, but did play the more recent games). Skyrim being so high is also like a dagger to my heart, but its also totally expected.

I'm a huge Deus Ex fan but that game has really aged pretty badly IMO. I've tried playing it recently and have barely made it past the statue of liberty.

 

[Derrick01]

I loved Deus Ex: HR, but I think I would agree some extent with these criticisms. It also didn't help that for me(and I assume others) I am not quite sure if Deus Ex: HR is even an RPG is why I didn't consider it for me list. On the subject I am now arguing with myself about the first one(which was on my list) being an RPG now as well.

I think the original counts but not HR. The original had a lot more RPG elements and a greater focus on exploration, choices that affect the game and more loot as well as more variety in the loot. Combine that with the stat based shooting and stealth and it had enough to pass as a RPG. There were a lot of times where you had to make choices on what skill to level and it would affect what you could do in the level design. Like in HR if you see a wall that you can break down in Detroit but can't do it at that time then it doesn't matter because by the time you go back to Detroit you'll have at least 1 skill point in everything if you wanted to. It's really hard to miss anything because there's more of an illusion of choice than actual choice.

Edit: Then again if we're going to count ME2 as a RPG then we may as well count anything that has even a shred of RPG in it.

 

[demidar]

People consider Mass Effect 2 and Skyrim RPGS. It could be argued that Deus Ex: HR actually has deeper RPG systems than both of those games.

Skyrim is totally an RPG, just dumbed down from its predecessor Oblivion (which was in turn dumbed down from Morrowind). ME2 isn't an RPG. I would also hesitate to call DX:HR an RPG while I can confidently say the original DX is.

edit: Derrick knows whats up.

 

[kswiston]

Approaching the list as different recommendations rather than assessment of quality might be more fruitful.

That's the way I see it. I had considered making the final aggregate list unranked, and in alphabetical order, but the feedback I got via PMs was strongly in favour of keeping the list ranked. People liked seeing where games ended up. That said, the rankings reflect with games were most often recommended, not which games were the best.

If I had more space and it didn't take so damn long, I would have liked to see full summaries for the top 100. I think #51-106 added a lot of variety to the list. Unfortunately, those banners take 10-15 mins a piece to create between finding a suitable art piece and looking up the required info (release year, completion length, etc). Then factor in the time needed to add in the summaries, soundtrack links, and gameplay videos (thank god I had had a lot of GAF help with those parts. That was really appreciated). It just wasn't feasible.

 

[Almighty]

People consider Mass Effect 2 and Skyrim RPGS. It could be argued that Deus Ex: HR actually has deeper RPG systems than both of those games.

ME2 is no RPG in my book. Skyrim yeah probably. I am more or less wonder if my definition of "When stats not player reflexes have the major role in deciding the possible outcomes that a game becomes an RPG."(which I admit is not everyones) allows Deus Ex or HR to be considered one. I mean Deus Ex does have stats that do effect your shooting, but I am wondering if you didn't upgrade them if you would still be able to still shoot your way though the game. Not to mention that once you get the Dragon's Tooth sword your combat skills more or less become irreverent. Though since that might not be working as designed I am not sure I should count it.

As for HR I am pretty sure you could run and gun though the game and not upgrade a single skill.

Though the major thing I am arguing with myself if my definition should only apply to combat in the first place. Both games lock out paths and options to you if you skills aren't high enough(in hacking or lock picking for example) so maybe that is enough to be a RPG? As that could be seen as "stats not player reflexes have the major role in deciding the possible outcomes" Because its you stats that made it so you couldn't use hacking as an option or talk your way past. So I dunno maybe the game should be viewed as a whole and not just combat like I have been doing? As the developers might of deliberately left the combat option viable at all times(at the expense of making your combat stats the deciding factor in combat) so players don't paint themselves in a corner if they decided not to invest in the skills that would allow them an alternate path.

 

[djtiesto]

The only one in the list I haven't played is Mount & Blade Warband. Which I guess I will remedy shortly.

That's probably the only one I've never heard of on the list... googling it and it looks like your typical eastern european medieval RPG, definitely not my thing.

Man, Star Ocean 2 at 98, Phantasy Star 1 at 103 and 2 at 118...

I think I might try to play every game on this list but the Star Wars games

 

[Mileena]

Edit: Then again if we're going to count ME2 as a RPG then we may as well count anything that has even a shred of RPG in it.

This

CoD multi is more of an RPG.

 

[decoyplatypus]

Keep in mind Skyrim was top 5 last year and it fell over 20 spots.

I don't think Xenoblade will fall quite that far, but it will fall some spots.

I'm not so sure. Have you met the Xenoblade fans on this board?

Unlike with Skyrim, there's no real backlash against Xenoblade. There are people who dislike the game (full disclosure: I'm not a big fan), but no one is holding up Xenoblade as a measure of everything that is wrong with videogames today. Maybe that's because Xenoblade is not a sequel, so it couldn't piss anyone off by "dumbing down" predecessors' mechanics. Maybe it's because Skyrim's design tends to wear thin the longer people play (as was described earlier in the thread), so people who were enjoying it last year felt differently by the time the put the game down. In any case, I don't see the same signs that Xenoblade will drop. The only thing to go on is the chance that because it's a relatively new and trendy game, it's support may be soft. But considering its fanbase on GAF, I'm not holding my breath for that.

 

[demidar]

ME2 is no RPG in my book. Skyrim yeah probably. I am more or less wonder if my definition of "When stats not player reflexes have the major role in deciding the possible outcomes that a game becomes an RPG."(which I admit is not everyones) allows Deus Ex or HR to be considered one. I mean Deus Ex does have stats that do effect your shooting, but I am wondering if you didn't upgrade them if you would still be able to still shoot your way though the game. Not to mention that once you get the Dragon's Tooth sword your combat skills more or less become irreverent. Though since that might not be working as designed I am not sure I should count it.

As for HR I am pretty sure you could run and gun though the game and not upgrade a single skill.

Though the major thing I am arguing with myself if my definition should only apply to combat in the first place. Both games lock out paths and options to you if you skills aren't high enough(in hacking or lock picking for example) so maybe that is enough to be a RPG? As that could be seen as "stats not player reflexes have the major role in deciding the possible outcomes" Because its you stats that made it so you couldn't use hacking as an option or talk your way past. So I dunno maybe the game should be viewed as a whole and not just combat like I have been doing? As the developers might of deliberately left the combat option viable at all times(at the expense of making your combat stats the deciding factor in combat) so players don't paint themselves in a corner if they decided not to invest in the skills that would allow them an alternate path.

Restricting your definition to combat only doesn't make any sense. In fact, combat is the part that is most affected by player skill since there are many more factors to combat in general than other parts of a game (conversation, searching/hiding, picking locks and pockets, running speed and jumping height) which could be determines with a simple dice roll.

 

[decoyplatypus]

That's probably the only one I've never heard of on the list... googling it and it looks like your generic eastern european medieval RPG, definitely not my thing.

I haven't played it either, but people rave about its battle system. People regularly rank it up with the Souls games when discussing real-time combat mechanics. It may be that, as with the Souls games, the combat doesn't look like much until you're playing it for yourself and can feel how everything is weighted.

 

[kswiston]

Skyrim would pass HTown's "if you teleported your starting character to the end of the game, would they be successful in beating it?" test. Unless you have the difficulty turned way down, Giants and Ice Trolls destroy you at the start of the game.

 

[demidar]

I haven't played it either, but people rave about its battle system. People regularly rank it up with the Souls games when discussing real-time combat mechanics.

I've played its sequel With Fire and Sword. The combat is practically identical in both but with the inclusion of firearms. The melee combat is braindead and if you fight against three guys simultaneously you will most likely die. The point of these games is commanding your own army and seeing them all next to you while on the battlefield. I guess the game is pretty much a strategy simulator since you can do things like position your cavalry at the top of the hill waiting for the enemy then charge down while the enemy's close to deal extra damage. Your commander has a list of stats (strength, agility, intelligence, charisma), skills that govern things like healing, army size, running speed, attack strength, converting deaths to injuries and more. These points are extremely scarce, you get one each per level and the impact of a single point is miniscule.

Ambitious but rife with jank.

 

[Grief.exe]

I'm not so sure. Have you met the Xenoblade fans on this board?

Unlike with Skyrim, there's no real backlash against Xenoblade. There are people who dislike the game (full disclosure: I'm not a big fan), but no one is holding up Xenoblade as a measure of everything that is wrong with videogames today. Maybe that's because Xenoblade is not a sequel, so it couldn't piss anyone off by "dumbing down" predecessors' mechanics. Maybe it's because Skyrim's design tends to wear thin the longer people play (as was described earlier in the thread), so people who were enjoying it last year felt differently by the time the put the game down. In any case, I don't see the same signs that Xenoblade will drop. The only thing to go on is the chance that because it's a relatively new and trendy game, it's support may be soft. But considering its fanbase on GAF, I'm not holding my breath for that.

I concede that point, excellent arguments and a good read overall.

Nice to have some good discussion again, I just came from this thread...
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=46013406&postcount=526
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=46012746&postcount=489
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=46013140&postcount=512

Why can't I hold all these fallacies?

ME2 is no RPG in my book. Skyrim yeah probably. I am more or less wonder if my definition of "When stats not player reflexes have the major role in deciding the possible outcomes that a game becomes an RPG."(which I admit is not everyones) allows Deus Ex or HR to be considered one. I mean Deus Ex does have stats that do effect your shooting, but I am wondering if you didn't upgrade them if you would still be able to still shoot your way though the game. Not to mention that once you get the Dragon's Tooth sword your combat skills more or less become irreverent. Though since that might not be working as designed I am not sure I should count it.

As for HR I am pretty sure you could run and gun though the game and not upgrade a single skill.

Though the major thing I am arguing with myself if my definition should only apply to combat in the first place. Both games lock out paths and options to you if you skills aren't high enough(in hacking or lock picking for example) so maybe that is enough to be a RPG? As that could be seen as "stats not player reflexes have the major role in deciding the possible outcomes" Because its you stats that made it so you couldn't use hacking as an option or talk your way past. So I dunno maybe the game should be viewed as a whole and not just combat like I have been doing? As the developers might of deliberately left the combat option viable at all times(at the expense of making your combat stats the deciding factor in combat) so players don't paint themselves in a corner if they decided not to invest in the skills that would allow them an alternate path.

Point may be entirely subjective, but I disagree.

Combat can be skill based, see 'twitch', or turn based and it can still be a deep RPG.

I generally look at the underlying mechanics and systems.

Is there a good deal of skill choices and combinations? Do you have to make hard choices? Is there a way to min/max your character?

I've played its sequel With Fire and Sword. The combat is practically identical in both but with the inclusion of firearms. The melee combat is braindead and if you fight against three guys simultaneously you will most likely die. The point of these games is commanding your own army and seeing them all next to you while on the battlefield. I guess the game is pretty much a strategy simulator since you can do things like position your cavalry at the top of the hill waiting for the enemy then charge down while the enemy's close to deal extra damage. Your commander has a list of stats (strength, agility, intelligence, charisma), skills that govern things like healing, army size, running speed, attack strength, converting deaths to injuries and more. These points are extremely scarce, you get one each per level and the impact of a single point is miniscule.

Ambitious but rife with jank.

I can kind of disagree with that.

If you have block direction changed to the enemies attack direction it can be quite intense and brings with it a fairly high skill ceiling. Even if you don't have that block setting enabled you should be able to handle yourself and the combat can still be entertaining.

 

[demidar]

Skyrim would pass HTown's "if you teleported your starting character to the end of the game, would they be successful in beating it?" test. Unless you have the difficulty turned way down, Giants and Ice Trolls destroy you at the start of the game.

I guess Demon's Souls isn't an RPG then since you can be noodly lvl -100 wimp and still beat the last boss

 

[decoyplatypus]

I've played its sequel With Fire and Sword. The combat is practically identical in both but with the inclusion of firearms. The melee combat is braindead and if you fight against three guys simultaneously you will most likely die. The point of these games is commanding your own army and seeing them all next to you while on the battlefield. I guess the game is pretty much a strategy simulator since you can do things like position your cavalry at the top of the hill waiting for the enemy then charge down while the enemy's close to deal extra damage. Your commander has a list of stats (strength, agility, intelligence, charisma), skills that govern things like healing, army size, running speed, attack strength, converting deaths to injuries and more. These points are extremely scarce, you get one each per level and the impact of a single point is miniscule.

Ambitious but rife with jank.

Ah, I see. Thanks for the information.

 

[Almighty]

I think the original counts but not HR. The original had a lot more RPG elements and a greater focus on exploration, choices that affect the game and more loot as well as more variety in the loot. Combine that with the stat based shooting and stealth and it had enough to pass as a RPG. There were a lot of times where you had to make choices on what skill to level and it would affect what you could do in the level design. Like in HR if you see a wall that you can break down in Detroit but can't do it at that time then it doesn't matter because by the time you go back to Detroit you'll have at least 1 skill point in everything if you wanted to. It's really hard to miss anything because there's more of an illusion of choice than actual choice.

Edit: Then again if we're going to count ME2 as a RPG then we may as well count anything that has even a shred of RPG in it.

Restricting your definition to combat only doesn't make any sense. In fact, combat is the part that is most affected by player skill since there are many more factors to combat in general than other parts of a game (conversation, searching/hiding, picking locks and pockets, running speed and jumping height) which could be determines with a simple dice roll.

Point may be entirely subjective, but I disagree.

Combat can be skill based, see 'twitch', or turn based and it can still be a deep RPG.

I generally look at the underlying mechanics and systems.

Is there a good deal of skill choices and combinations? Do you have to make hard choices? Is there a way to min/max your character?

You guys make good points and I think I have to agree with some of them. So yeah looking the the whole game I would consider Deus Ex an RPG for sure. As for HR well unlike Derrick I still think it counts as an RPG even if just barely. There is no doubt that it is more streamlined compared to the first, but I think it retains enough RPG elements to pass as one. Though I would argue that because like Derrick said the game hands out skill points(those Praxis kits) like candy it might be a poorly designed one, but still one. Of course as I further refine my position it could change.

 

[Karsticles]

Skyrim would pass HTown's "if you teleported your starting character to the end of the game, would they be successful in beating it?" test. Unless you have the difficulty turned way down, Giants and Ice Trolls destroy you at the start of the game.

By that logic, Metroid, Devil May Cry, and Ninja Gaiden are RPGs.

Also, FFIX is no longer an RPG!

 

[Grief.exe]

Skyrim would pass HTown's "if you teleported your starting character to the end of the game, would they be successful in beating it?" test. Unless you have the difficulty turned way down, Giants and Ice Trolls destroy you at the start of the game.

I guess Demon's Souls isn't an RPG then since you can be noodly lvl -100 wimp and still beat the last boss

By that logic, Metroid, Devil May Cry, and Ninja Gaiden are RPGs.

Also, FFIX is no longer an RPG!

I think that test was mainly designed for turn-based RPGs of the 90's where you level up through battle and don't have a choice in stat progression.

Chrono Trigger, FF6, Earthbound, Pokemon, etc.

Doesn't really work in a skill-based RPG such as Demon/Dark Souls.

 

[Almighty]

Skyrim would pass HTown's "if you teleported your starting character to the end of the game, would they be successful in beating it?" test. Unless you have the difficulty turned way down, Giants and Ice Trolls destroy you at the start of the game.

Yeah that is probably the major reason I consider Skyrim a RPG.(how good of an RPG it is is up for debate) I remember trying to fight my first gaint/mammoth when I first saw them and getting my ass handed to me many times. So gave up leveled a bit and came back to get my revenge. Though it might make Oblivion no longer one. Mostly because its vanilla scaling system was so poorly designed I think it would allow you to beat the game without leveling. Because none of the harder baddies will show up.

 

[Felix Lighter]

Ah never mind. Nothing new here.

 

[kswiston]

I guess Demon's Souls isn't an RPG then since you can be noodly lvl -100 wimp and still beat the last boss

I haven't really played that series to comment either way. However, while Skyrim hides some stats in comparison to earlier games in the series, your success in the game is tied into your character build and equipment. At level 1 you are pretty weak regardless of how good your reflexes are. The main problem with Skyrim is that, in order to accommodate the go anywhere at anytime mantra of the game, they have level scaled enemies in most areas of the game. Other than the Giants and a few other mobs, you mostly run into level appropriate baddies.

By that logic, Metroid, Devil May Cry, and Ninja Gaiden are RPGs.

Also, FFIX is no longer an RPG!

Why is FFIX no longer an RPG? Do you mean VIII? That was the game that you can beat at level 1. Not really the same thing though, since character progression is not strictly tied into levels for FF8.

I'm not saying that there is only one classifier for a game being an rpg. Rather, I don't see how someone can suggest that Skyrim doesn't meet the classification, even if some of the deeper mechanics from previous Elder Scrolls games were simplified or removed.

 

[demidar]

Aww I was gonna respond to that Felix.

Guideline: Do you have stat points? If yes, you are probably an RPG, otherwise you are probably not an RPG.

With regards to RPGs with real-time action, D* Souls is a great example. All the player skill in the world doesn't help you swing a Dragon Tooth Mace quickly if your character doesn't have the strength to wield it. Also, Tales of Graces f is a very fast-paced, skill intensive action RPG. Look at all those numbers! (The guy's playing it on normal, the game's better on higher difficulties)

@kswiston The last boss of Demon's Souls just lays on the floor waiting to be killed by the player. It retaliates, but since it's completely powerless it doesn't do much damage. A level 1 player can punch it to death with ease.

 

[Fritz]

Beautiful OP. Can we just sticky it?

 

[we.are.the.armada]

Damn, I just looked at the OT again and I've got to hand it to kswiston for putting this feat of a thread together. You rock

2012 had some great RPGs and some great gems like 10000000 and FTL, games that revive a blurred line I suppose.

So now I've got to play Xenoblade...

 

[Almighty]

I think that test was mainly designed for turn-based RPGs of the 90's where you level up through battle and don't have a choice in stat progression.

Chrono Trigger, FF6, Earthbound, Pokemon, etc.

Doesn't really work in a skill-based RPG such as Demon/Dark Souls.

I think that there are RPGs(Stats primary factor) and Action-RPGs(Player reflexes primary factor). To put it simply I think RPGs and Action-RPGs should be considered there own separate genres now. Similar to the Adventure and Action-Adventure genres. I think that would help clear things up. Because as it stands game like Mass Effect 2 and Alpha Protocol are right now considered both to be Third-Person Shooter RPGs, but mechanically they are almost a night and day difference in how they work.

Now if we had the two separate genre people would be able to get a clearer idea of what game are similar. Do you want a reflex based or stat based RPG gaming experience?

I doubt it will ever happen, but in my dream world that is what I would like.

 

[Myriadis]

42) Dragon Quest VIII - 35
55) Fire Emblem: Path of Radiance - 25
72) Kingdom Hearts II - 16
81) Deus Ex: Human Revolution - 13
87) Resonance of Fate - 13
98) Breath of Fire: Dragon Quarter - 10
106) Wild ARMs 3 - 10
112) Seiken Densetsu 3 (Secret of Mana 2) - 9

GAF, just what the fuck is wrong with you. Especially the underlined ones.
At least you had the common sense to put Final Fantasy XII on 12th place, and over FFX.
And really great OP,kswiston, excellent work.

 

[demidar]

I think that there are RPGs(Stats primary factor) and Action-RPGs(Player reflexes primary factor). To put it simply I think RPGs and Action-RPGs should be considered there own separate genres now. Similar to the Adventure and Action-Adventure genres. I think that would help clear things up. Because as it stands game like Mass Effect 2 and Alpha Protocol are right now considered both to be Third-Person Shooter RPGs, but mechanically they are almost a night and day difference in how they work.

Now if we had the two separate genre people would be able to get a clearer idea of what game are similar. Do you want a reflex based or stat based RPG gaming experience?

I doubt it will ever happen, but in my dream world that is what I would like.

ME2 and Alpha Protocol are mechanically different because ME2 isn't an RPG and Alpha Protocol is.

I don't mind calling RPGs and action RPGs different genres but I prefer to think of them (and SRPGs) to be variants or permutations of RPGs, not completely separate.

 

[Grief.exe]

So now I've got to play Xenoblade...

I have it all ready to go on Dolphin, I just don't know if I'm ready to dump 100 hours into one game. Honestly that alone would probably take up my whole semester!

I do have some screenshots though, game can look decent on Dolphin. 4xSSAA, downsampled from 2560x1440, 16xAF

Spoiler

Ignore that bridge texture in the foreground

 

[YAWN]

Glad to see my fave 3 FFs in the top 20 (IX, VI, and XII), as well as Tales of Vesperia and Vagrant Story in the top 50. You dun good GAF, you dun good.
Shame Path of Radiance just missed the top 50 though.

 

[Almighty]

ME2 and Alpha Protocol are mechanically different because ME2 isn't an RPG and Alpha Protocol is.

Which is my point. Mass Effect 2 and AP are different enough that I do personally consider them to be in different genre, but Mass Effect 2 retains enough of the RPGs elements that calling it a Third-Person Shooter doesn't feel quite right. Which is why I think Action RPG is a fair label or Third-Person Shooter Action RPG if you want to put it in a sub-genre as well.

I don't mind calling RPGs and action RPGs different genres but I prefer to think of them (and SRPGs) to be variants or permutations of RPGs, not completely separate.

Fair enough. Though unlike Action RPGs I always thought SRPG fit nicely as a sub-genre of RPG. As all the ones I can think of are stat focused. Now that has me wondering if a reflex based SRPG is possible. An Action SRPG if you will. That could be an interesting game.

 

[we.are.the.armada]

I have it all ready to go on Dolphin, I just don't know if I'm ready to dump 100 hours into one game. Honestly that alone would probably take up my whole semester!

I do have some screenshots though, game can look decent on Dolphin. 4xSSAA, downsampled from 2560x1440, 16xAF

Spoiler

Ignore that bridge texture in the foreground

Daaaamn! Hmmm, I'll look into this, thanks Grief.exe! Does Dolphin have a fast forward function?

 

[Lancehead]

Vampire Bloodlines beating DX1 is a pretty big wtf moment, and both of the recent fallouts topping it is probably indicative of nothing more than generational bias (e.g. many people who didn't play DX because of their age, but did play the more recent games). Skyrim being so high is also like a dagger to my heart, but its also totally expected.

Bloodlines and New Vegas are more deep and complex than Deus ex. A glance at the character sheet can tell that. The only thing that Deus Ex beats them is in the so-called emergent gameplay. As for Fallout 3, I wouldn't put it in the top 100, and I haven't even played a 100 RPGs. I haven't played Skyrim, but I expect something similar.

 

[Karsticles]

I think that test was mainly designed for turn-based RPGs of the 90's where you level up through battle and don't have a choice in stat progression.

Chrono Trigger, FF6, Earthbound, Pokemon, etc.

Doesn't really work in a skill-based RPG such as Demon/Dark Souls.

Well, then it's not very good at determining whether a game is an RPG.

Why is FFIX no longer an RPG? Do you mean VIII? That was the game that you can beat at level 1. Not really the same thing though, since character progression is not strictly tied into levels for FF8.

I was thinking of this video, but VIII works as well:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKGTvyiDptI

I'm not saying that there is only one classifier for a game being an rpg. Rather, I don't see how someone can suggest that Skyrim doesn't meet the classification, even if some of the deeper mechanics from previous Elder Scrolls games were simplified or removed.

I think there needs to be some way to know whether a game is an RPG. There needs to be a way to know why some of these games are RPGs, and others aren't:
Skyrim
Dark Souls
Legend of Zelda
Metroid
Devil May Cry
Final Fantasy X
World of Warcraft

 

[Lombax]

With the exception of FF VII I think 1-10 is perfect!

 

[demidar]

Which is my point. Mass Effect 2 and AP are different enough that I do personally consider them to be in different genre, but Mass Effect 2 retains enough of the RPGs elements that calling it a Third-Person Shooter doesn't feel quite right. Which is why I think Action RPG is a fair label or Third-Person Shooter Action RPG if you want to put it in a sub-genre as well.

I don't think ME2 has ANY RPGness to it. All it has are increasing health and shield/armour and selectable skills. No stat points whatsoever.

Fair enough. Though unlike Action RPGs I always thought SRPG fit nicely as a sub-genre of RPG. As all the ones I can think of are stat focused. Now that has me wondering if a reflex based SRPG is possible. An Action SRPG if you will. That could be an interesting game.

Valkyria Chronicles is an action SRPG, moving is in real time and taken within discrete turns. Valkyrie Profile: Covenant of the Plume also fits that description, attacks are mapped from 4 characters to the 4 face buttons, each character gets 3 attacks and attacks happen in real time.

 

[2San]

I was thinking of this video, but VIII works as well:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKGTvyiDptI

That is not a starting party. Quite of bit of time is put in to get the gear and skills to the the appropriate level(Thievery, Dragon's Chest, etc).

 

[Almighty]

I don't think ME2 has ANY RPGness to it. All it has are increasing health and shield/armour and selectable skills. No stat points whatsoever.

I think it has enough to qualify as an Action RPG. It has no real stats yes, but it does have RPGs elements like dialog trees, quests, experience, some skills, different possible outcomes(even if most are only slightly different), etc. Now that isn't enough for it to be an RPG, but I think it is enough to separate it from your average third person shooter.

I just think if someone asked "Hey guys recommend me some good third-person shooters." Mass Effect 2 is a different enough experience from most of them I wouldn't recommend it. If people don't want to even consider it an Action RPG well I won't argue with them.

Valkyria Chronicles is an action SRPG, moving is in real time and taken within discrete turns. Valkyrie Profile: Covenant of the Plume also fits that description, attacks are mapped from 4 characters to the 4 face buttons, each character gets 3 attacks and attacks happen in real time.

I don't remember Valkyria Chronicles being very reflex based when I played it. It was more or less move your characters into position(while hoping the enemies don't kill them during that move) then once you got there you had plenty of time to figure out your best attack/next move. Maybe I am misremembering it has been a little while I will have to play it again someday.

Anyway that Valkyrie Profile: Covenant of the Plume looks interesting. Is that game worth checking out?

 

[kswiston]

Well, then it's not very good at determining whether a game is an RPG.


I was thinking of this video, but VIII works as well:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FKGTvyiDptI


I think there needs to be some way to know whether a game is an RPG. There needs to be a way to know why some of these games are RPGs, and others aren't:
Skyrim
Dark Souls
Legend of Zelda
Metroid
Devil May Cry
Final Fantasy X
World of Warcraft

As was already said, both FFVIII and FFIX depend on you exploiting some of the game's skills and equipment system to beat those end game bosses at level 1, and take more planning and gameplay than just beating the boss at the usual level. A fresh level 1 party with no late game skills/magic/etc would get wiped quick, even if you have mastered the battle system.

As for your list of games, I don't really know why FFX or WoW were selected as border examples.

As for some of the other ones, I think it comes back to what Aeana said. All rpgs have pen and paper roots. Modern games draw inspiration from other genres, but those PnP tenets should be present for a game to qualify as an RPG. Progression in Zelda is based on skill and acquiring key items. Same as Metroid. Character statistics don't really play a huge role. Same sort of thing is true about games like Ratchet and Clank, even though you can choose to upgrade your weapons to better effect.

EDIT: Also, before I forget, thanks to everyone who has left positive comments regarding the OP. I'm glad that it was appreciated.

 

[demidar]

I think it has enough to qualify as an Action RPG. It has no real stats yes, but it does have RPGs elements like dialog trees, quests, experience, some skills, different possible outcomes(even if most are only slightly different), etc. Now that isn't enough for it to be an RPG, but I think it is enough to separate it from your average third person shooter.

I just think if someone asked "Hey guys recommend me some good third-person shooters." Mass Effect 2 is a different enough experience from most of them I wouldn't recommend it. If people don't want to even consider it an Action RPG well I won't argue with them.

Most of those things you said are superfluous to being an RPG. Stat/skill points are the defining features of an RPG, do not conflate conversation, branching outcomes, quests and experience with RPGs. For an actual shooter RPG look to Fallout 3/New Vegas, there are 7 stats and around 20 skills ready to be invested in.

I don't remember Valkyria Chronicles being very reflex based when I played it. It was more or less move your characters into position(while hoping the enemies don't kill them during that move) then once you got there you had plenty of time to figure out your best attack/next move. Maybe I am misremembering it has been a little while I will have to play it again someday.

Anyway that Valkyrie Profile: Covenant of the Plume looks interesting. Is that game worth checking out?

I got the game because I loved Valkyrie Profile and bought it at full price, but it has a pretty good combat system as you've probably just watched. While there are optional maps, there is no grinding, once you clear a map you cannot go back to it. This means if one of your party members fall in battle you will lose out on precious experience, and in turn make the rest of the game harder. This is intentional, as the core plot point AND mechanic of the game is sacrificing party members to the "plume", multiplying their stats by 10x for the remainder of the map, but ending in their permanent death when the map is finished. Depending on how many people you sacrifice (sacrificing is optional but not doing it makes the game a lot harder), you recruit different characters, go on different plot lines and get one of the three endings. Obviously no sacrifices yields the best end but it is damn hard, the game puts pressure on the player to sacrifice party members to make the game easier, quite brilliant design I'd say.

It's worth it if you can get it for cheap.

 

[Necron]

Overall, some titles could have been higher but it's still a very impressive list.

It's nice to see all the good FF's in the top 15.

 

[Almighty]

Most of those things you said are superfluous to being an RPG. Stat/skill points are the defining features of an RPG, do not conflate conversation, branching outcomes, quests and experience with RPGs. For an actual shooter RPG look to Fallout 3/New Vegas, there are 7 stats and around 20 skills ready to be invested in.

Well yes the core of an RPG is stats we agree on that. Though I think we disagree on just how those stats make a game a RPG. Either way they are what makes or breaks a game as RPG as I have been over. With that said I do think a lot of the stuff I listed are closely associated with RPGs. Or at least the Western Tradition of RPGs. Now I agree with you that just because a game has all or none of these for lack of a better word RPG flavor elements doesn't make or not make a game an RPG.

I think where we are differing is on what makes the game an Action RPG. I am arguing that if the game still has a good number of those flavor elements, but lack the core(or have a very watered down core) of an RPG I think it still could become an Action RPG. Though I imagine that because we don't see eye to eye on them being separate genres(RPG and Action RPG) is why we probably disagree.

I guess if what I am saying is if on the surface a game looks like an RPG(which Mass Effect 2 does) and its when you dig deeper that it isn't then the game in my opinion could still be considered an Action RPG.

With all that said though you do make a good argument for why it might be more accurate to call Mass Effect 2 a third-person shooter with RPG elements. In all honesty after considering what you wrote I could at this point go either way.

I got the game because I loved Valkyrie Profile and bought it at full price, but it has a pretty good combat system as you've probably just watched. While there are optional maps, there is no grinding, once you clear a map you cannot go back to it. This means if one of your party members fall in battle you will lose out on precious experience, and in turn make the rest of the game harder. This is intentional, as the core plot point AND mechanic of the game is sacrificing party members to the "plume", multiplying their stats by 10x for the remainder of the map, but ending in their permanent death when the map is finished. Depending on how many people you sacrifice (sacrificing is optional but not doing it makes the game a lot harder), you recruit different characters, go on different plot lines and get one of the three endings. Obviously no sacrifices yields the best end but it is damn hard, the game puts pressure on the player to sacrifice party members to make the game easier, quite brilliant design I'd say.

It's worth it if you can get it for cheap.

Well it will be a while before I can get around to it(if ever), but if I come across it for cheap I think it sounds interesting enough based on your description for me to snag a copy.

 

[Tash]

<3 Chrono Trigger on first place.
I can definitely agree with the top 10 but have to admit (much to my shame) I never heard of Shin Megami Tensei and another thing: Gafers make the most amazing looking OPs.

 

[demidar]

This has been a fruitful discussion Almighty. I can definitely see where you're coming from, I guess I'm just more reductive than most people and prefer classification to be as clear cut and self-descriptive as possible.

 

[SoccerGoaliePro]

This list made me cringe pretty hard.
No Legend of Legaia? No Suikoden 1 or 3, no Ys, No Shadow Hearts 1 or 3,No breath of Fire ......you people make me sad to be human.