Very good call. For some reason I don't think of Doublefine's games as indie but they do fit the definition.
I have personally not considered them as indie for the effects of my own list (which would have probably included one or two games from them), but I will not disqualify them if people vote for them.
i generally think that top x lists are not so great because they end up being a measure for which games the most people have played rather than which games are the best. sure there may be some correlation there (though maybe not) but its not a perfect proxy. that may be even worse when it comes to indie games since there are so many of them and the fanbases are all over the place.
This has been discussed at length in the thread itself already and even referenced in the OP. To briefly sum up, I'm OK with more popular games being higher at the top for the time being.
fake edit - is journey indie? i saw some people put it. i dont consider it indie, but if it is i would include it in my list.
My policy right now is to allow games that are "borderline" or "debatable", and let their own "debatable" status work against them (i.e. if many people don't consider a game "indie", it will be lower in the chart). This is mostly a practicality as I simply don't have neither the criteria to estabilish something ultimately as "indie" or "not indie", nor the resources to research each individual case.
However, for that very reason, you have to use your own judgement: even if you see a certain game in another person's list, if you don't think a game meets your personal "indie" criteria, you should actually not vote for them (perfect example: me and Double Fine, see above).
Thanks a lot! Ironically, your list was valid even without the edit, as since then we've adopted a policy of "five minimum" rather than ten. But hey, you get to vote for more games!
If Journey counts, it's even more absurd that the first Trials HD doesn't: RedLynx wasn't owned by Ubisoft back then, the game was just published by Microsoft (not even funded, while iirc Journet was founded by Sony AND published by Sony, can't see how that's "indie"?)
By all means include Trials HD; I haven't seen conclusive evidence of it being obviously non-indie. Feel free to edit your list again if you want to include it.
Btw, when does the voting end? OP says nothing about that.
I actually added this to the OP a few days ago:
I will tally the votes in a month's time, or if the thread goes through a handful of days without new valid votes (whichever happens first).
Without this distinction, you could easily argue that Next Level Games is "indie" and the latest Luigi's Mansion would qualify. Generally people won't do this because Nintendo isn't trying to promote NLG as an "artsy indie studio" to boost their indie cred like Sony constantly did with thatgamecompany.
From what I'm reading about Next Level Games, Wikipedia qualifies as "an independent video game developer based in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada.". Feel free to vote for LM
M, it's entirely covered under the current rules. I entirely understand your point about being "against the spirit" of the thread (I personally would not consider it for my personal list), but the rules I've set specifically protect it.
So it's best to make a clear decision and decide what the spirit of your thread is going to be in order for the voting/thread to function properly. I'm not saying it's easy. I go to great lengths doing this for the GotY voting and it's a struggle to get the answer right. But you have to do it or else it falls apart. Some people will be upset -- for instance there are people that want to vote for Dark Souls wherever possible. Hell, there are some that want to vote for it in this thread, I bet.
Unfortunately I don't have the means to provide conclusive, clear cut answers regarding what is indie and what is not. "Indie-ness" is a continuum, and any point you make the cut is arbitrary. I can say that receiving funding from a bigger company makes another non-indie, but even that is not always readily available or clear-cut.
I would love it to have a definite, black-and-white list of what is fair and what is not, and if anyone can provide a reputable one, I'll be immensely happy to use it. As it is, it's impossible to get two people to agree on a large number of individual titles, so I've chosen, at least for the time being, to let the problem resolve itself in the manner described above (if a game is less clearly indie, less people will vote for it).
I also hope you understand I cannot change the rules mid-voting, least of all with so many people already having commited their votes. However, I invite anyone with more free time than me to enforce stricter rules in future versions of this thread. In fact, it was my hope all along that someone would take over me for future editions should this garner any kind of success; I only created this thread because I felt it was sorely needed, and I couldn't convince anyone else to make it.
