ElRenoRaven
Member
Damn right. Iron Man was always the goat. It just took a lot of people a long time to realize that.
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- Thread starter LordOfLore
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Damn right. Iron Man was always the goat. It just took a lot of people a long time to realize that.
Yes. Because among comic book fans, Captain Marvel is a much more popular character than Black Widow, even Civil War 2 did a lot to damage the character's standing. Do you find that a contentious sentiment, because if so I would find that surprising.
Black Widow isn't a superhero.
A small minority of people have asked for prominent supporting characters like Falcon and Nick Fury spin-offs too. That doesn't necessarily mean they're projects that are actively in demand by most of the fans, nor that they would necessarily make for good movies in comparison to giving much more deserving Marvel characters like She-Hulk or indeed Captain Marvel the film-treatment, who are infinitely more interesting characters in their own right.
LinkSlayer64
Member
Since when are we defining Black Widow as not a Superheroine?
Crow Pudding
Member
I think it's Quake.
[citation needed]
She's a government spy with no special abilities or superpowers. Do people classify that as a superhero?
Which bit, mate?
autumnleaf
Member
Just until they do Secret Invasion, decide she's a Skrull and do a flashback movie showing how it happened.
Dark Ninja
Member
Some nice functions missing from that image. Gotta give Marvel credit though they are building up their characters nicely. In 100 to 200 years they may get X-Men back.
BrightLightLava
Unconfirmed Member
Right. If Black Widow isn't a superhero then neither is Batman.
Comic book fan here. No she isn't. Outside of marketing pushes like this or MvC to make appear Carol more central, she really isn't all that popular. Her book ain't moving, and Civil War 2 did nothing but tarnish her image. And I'm saying this as someone who actually likes Carol unlike others on this board.
Right, and neither is Thor, he's a God of Thunder.
She's on the Avengers. She's a superhero.
Because Anthony Mackie and Scarlet Johannsen totes garner the same degree of attention.
You liked the biggest hero villain since hydra cap when you were younger? Or was it force works that did it for you?
I'm also a comic book fan, dude. So saying "I'm a comic book fan, your argument isn't invalid " doesn't really work in this case, you know? It's like two people playing rock, paper, scissors and playing rock when I play rock. It doesn't advance the discussion.
I like Black Widow fine, but as far as I'm aware...she doesn't even have a book currently. I mean, isn't that right?
That's a flimsy comparison. Thor is a superhero because he has superpowers and often performs extraordinary feats that are beyond the grasp of normal beings. Even Hawkeye's talents with a bow classify him as a superhero in this regard. Black Widow? Not so much. What can she do that most governmental spies can't? She's great at firing weapons and is well versed in infiltration and espionage, but that's about it.
Wait...what? So this is now about the pedigree of the actors playing their respective characters and not about the characters themselves? You're changing the basis of our argument here, dude.
All of it. Captain Marvel isn't really as popular as Marvel and other people think. Her book has been relaunched multiple times over the past few years and regularly settles to numbers which have gotten other, better series cancelled. Marvel are pushing her for no other reason than they're desperate for their own Wonder Woman and most of their better female characters' movie rights belong to other studios.
She is the very definition of a superhero on a team with other superheroes. She's basically an elite level gymnast trained in multiple forms of martial arts and combat, and in the comics she's actually genetically enhanced too with slower aging, faster healing and resistance to disease. If she isn't then neither is Hawkeye which you've used as an example above, or Batman, Robin etc. for that matter.
Gonna need the receipts on the "small minority" of fans calling for a Fury or Widow music.
How are you coming to that Carol is a more popular character? Her book launches that constantly bomb?
autumnleaf
Member
Sneak up on Loki
Guess Marvel's propaganda is working.
I'm arguing she's more popular than a character who doesn't even have her own book, yeah.
You act as if she hasn't had her own book before. The only reason Carol still has a book is because marvel is forcing the SHIT out of the character. If that were songbird or spectrum doing those numbers, they wouldn't be getting multiple attempts to fail
thetrin
Hail, peons, for I have come as ambassador from the great and bountiful Blueberry Butt Explosion
If just 10 years ago you told a Marvel fan that their tentpole characters would be Star Lord and Iron Man, they'd think you were a crazy person.
I actually actively hate Iron Man, and hate him more now, lol. At least he's filling his role in the MCU as secret best villain.
autumnleaf
Member
Loki literally stabs him in the back in the next frame so who sneaked up on who.
You know what? That's a fair point. But couldn't you say the same about Marvel attempting to push Black Widow in anticipation of marketing The Winter Solider and all their other Avenger related products? Additionally, did Black Widow's series sell all that well either? If they did...I imagine they would still be around.
I didn't mean to sound too snobbish in regards to Black Widow, and I apologize if I came across as a little arrogant in my initial dismissal of her. Honestly, I just thing Carol is a much more unique and interesting character for Marvel to play around with, and when it comes to female heroes, there are a lot more characters I'd rather see finally get their due on screen than Scarlett Johhanson's government agent. Even when it comes to Marvel related female spies, I've always found Peggy Carter to be the more interesting. Give her a movie instead!
http://variety.com/2017/film/news/female-superheros-standalone-movies-wonder-woman-1202449266/
https://www.usatoday.com/story/life/movies/2016/05/03/captain-america-iron-man-black-widow-fandango-usa-today-poll/83836216/
Apparently people want a Vision movie more than a Falcon movie. Black Widow still runs circles around them.
Pai Pai Master
Banned
I mean, not "currently" but her 2016 book just ended a few months ago. And Marvel put one of their most acclaimed duos Waid & Samnee on that book because Black Widow is popular.
And she had one of the best books of 2014/2015 that was highly regarded.
I just once want to see star Lord in full dress and not his space hobo look. And stark has always been one of marvels best villains. I'm just surprised he made the jump to the big screen
googleplex
Member
FYI it looks like the Ultimate Marvel Universe still exists in some fashion.
MisterHero
Super Member
Mutants are discriminated against because they aren't immediately profitable to corporations
there's a moral somewhere in there
there's a moral somewhere in there
Crimson_Echidna
Banned
Moon Girl and Devil Dinosaur!
Crimson_Echidna
Banned
Anya, Gwen, and Miles will all be classmates of Peter's in the upcoming Spider-Man Cartoon, so I guess it makes since why they're the four Spider-characters representing the line.
She's been stuck in limbo in the comics ever since Web Warriors got cancelled, but with both Silk and Spider-Woman having already gotten axed, maybe this means Marvel will bring her comic back. There is enough potential there as well though for a new series. Jessica Drew has a history with Anya, so have Jessica "retire" so that she can focus on raising her baby and have Anya take on the role as Spider-Woman, with Jessica serving as her mentor.
Heh, was just about to post this.
Couldn't even tell you who the creative team is on Captain Marvel just now.
I loved the GotG movies but the worst thing about them has been the complete change in character and look of comic Star Lord in the DnA run to this new one from the Bendis relaunch onwards.
WhiteRabbitEXE
Member
I feel like the fact that I know who almost all of those characters are shows at least a few things have changed in the last decade.
For some reason I ended up missing this post entirely, so apologies for the last response.
In regards to your post contesting the popularity of Captain Marvel in comparison to Black Widow, I turned to the internet to dig you up some receipts. I went to the sales in March of this year, when Black Widow's most recent book was apparently still around.
Black Widow hit the charts at 135, selling a reported 17,720 copies.
In comparison, Mighty Captain Marvel reached the charts at 82, selling a reported 28,649 copies.
So those are your receipts. I hope you find them satisfactory, Sir. When it comes to comparing the popularity of those characters, there's not much more evidence I can really offer outside of sales figures, otherwise I'd just be relying on my own personal perspective.
In regards to your second point, I wasn't actually aware that Black Widow had undergone some manner of genetic enhancements in the comics, so if that's still the case, I would certainly be happy to revise my classification of her being a superhero. Although, just to stray on this point a little longer...I've always been someone who has a slightly more strict defintion of superheroes than other people. The dictionary definition defines a superhero as "a benevolent fictional character with superhuman powers, like Superman". That's always pretty much been my view of the term too, even leading me to regard equally prevalent comic book characters such as Batman or The Punisher more as vigilantes as opposed to fully fledged superheroes in their own right. However, like you say...if Black Widow has undergone some genetic enhancements, she would certainly seem to comfortably fall under that label. So I cheerfully recind my quibbles about that.
Thirdly, in regards to the Falcon and Nick Fury spin-offs, I recall around the time that Winter Solider came out, it was something that a handful of fans were talking about, to the point where Kevin Feige had to step up and confirm that no such projects were in the works (even though a Nick Fury script has actually been in the works at Marvel for the longest time). Like I said though, I think it was a very small portion of fans who wanted those spin-offs, and the demand for them definitely seems to have fizzled out over time.
the problem with carol is that shes been outshone by everyone tangentially related to her, from other cap marvels, to rogue, to one that took her alias, even to her villain that took her name. she has a great powerset, no doubt, but her character is so lacking that most agree that she has to become something different to appeal to others. as for black widow shes had some decent runs. hell, most people dont even know that theres a second black widow thats been running around for a while.
That doesn't really work. So you're comparing a series at the very end of it's run vs one that was just relaunched (for the fourth time in as many years btw) two months earlier. New series always have a sales bump for the first few issues before dropping and levelling out. Doesn't really prove anything other than reinforcing how poorly Captain Marvel sells despite the relentless push of the character. Even Monsters Unleashed outsold it ffs.
Some more recent numbers from June, Mighty Captain Marvel #6 charted at 128th with 20,870. To put that in perspective, #6 of Black Widow's recent run in August 2016 charted at 111th with 24,106.
I think that's us done.
A Link to the Past
Banned
I love the attempt to downplay Black Widow's skills.
She was involved against the fight against Loki and Ultron, and held her own pretty well. If you're asking what the difference is between BW and other spies, the answer is "they probably would have all died against just one of these villains."
She was involved against the fight against Loki and Ultron, and held her own pretty well. If you're asking what the difference is between BW and other spies, the answer is "they probably would have all died against just one of these villains."
If you'd like to present any differing sales figures contrasting a Captain Marvel series and Black Window series that were equatable in terms of their runs to back up your own argument, I'd genuinely be interested in checking them out. Otherwise, I still feel fairly confident in my assertion Captain Marvel is the more popular character.
Although I don't doubt for a second that Black Widow could kick my ass in a barfight, I don't think I really consider plot armour a valid superpower.
Eh. I think someone like her is clearly in an area similar to James Bond, Jason Bourne or John Wick (in terms of abilities/skills/powers).
I really don't think comic book sales are a very good indicator for general (mainstream) popularity.
Pai Pai Master
Banned
Depends on which version because the comic Widow has some form of the infinity formula doesn't she?
Schweinehund
Member
No FF is like DC without Superman, makes zero sense. They were ground zero for the Marvel Universe. Granted they aren't as popular mainstream as Superman is.
Also Marvel WAS mostly X-men for a few decades.
Also Marvel WAS mostly X-men for a few decades.
I'm solely referring to the MCU version.
Unspeakable Evil
Member
So body explain to me why Marvel didn't just use Ultimate Fury after Secret Wars
I agree, but for stuff like arguing the difference in popularity between two comic book characters, it's really the most concrete thing you can rely on (outside of polls, maybe?) Otherwise, it's just arguing personal perspectives till you're blue in the face.
Pai Pai Master
Banned
Because Fury Jr has his own backstory and ongoing arc and they weren't just going to end it. Ultimate Fury wasn't worth keeping around like The Maker or Miles Morales.
Ah, thank you! Sorry, I missed your edit.
That is interesting. I think for the sake of being thorough, I'd generally need to look for myself in search of how those figures might have continued to spike and dip for both series throughout the year. But I definitely don't argue that's some compelling evidence that either Carol is less popular than I thought, or perhaps that Natasha is more popular...or perhaps maybe even a combination of the the two.
darkhunger
Member
It's not concrete at all... US comic book fans are simply not an indication of anything beyond what is the nichest of niche markets. If you're talking about mainstream popularity you're better off going by hearsay or random gut feelings.
The Driver
Member
Carol sucking or not selling won't matter once her movie hits. Once Marvel sees what plays well in the theater they'll sap all those traits over to her books. See Star Lord.
Pai Pai Master
Banned
Natasha is more popular and has been for a much longer time. That's why she was there first in Earth's Mightiest Heroes, in the MCU, in Avengers Assemble, in Lego Marvel, etc etc. Pretty much every version of Avengers outside of the comics features Natasha in a prominent role and Carol shows up later as a supporting character. MvCI might be the only exception where Carol has a large presence and Widow is nowhere to be seen.