Support NeoGAF

[CambriaRising]

Do you apply the same rules to all your other devices that may have a camera or microphone on them like phone, laptop, 3DS/Vita, etc?

No, because I know how the camera on my laptop works, it has a led which will always be lit if the camera is on. I know how my smart phone works when the camera is engaged, and microphone is on- it kills the battery life. My vita and 3ds are negligible because they are always in an off state when not in use and again, battery life.

This is stupid every time someone says it. Even if I didn't have a problem with my phone, laptop, etc I would still have a problem with buying a device that is confirmed to collect and use data in a nafarious manner (nuads, etc) much less from a company who was on the ground floor of PRISM. The single largest breach of citizen trust this country has ever seen.

 

[FrunkQ]

You were talking as if Microsoft give away user data on a silver platter to anyone who asked. They followed the law under pressure from the NSA. If it was Sony or Nintendo it would have the same result, those companies to would hand over data.

Are you sure? Are you sure you are not just doing the old "false equivalence" thing again? If MS does it then Sony will???

Are you sure that Sony & Nintendo are legally compelled to hand over the same data as Microsoft.

I am no lawyer, but I understand the law says companies based anywhere in the world, provided they have a US parent company, have to disclose information about their customers (without their knowledge or consent) to US law enforcement.

Last time I looked Sony and Nintendo have Japanese parent companies.

So why would those companies to would hand over data.? [your quote]

 

[Caayn]

Are you sure? Are you sure you are not just doing the old "false equivalence" thing again? If MS does it then Sony will???

Are you sure that Sony & Nintendo are legally compelled to hand over the same data as Microsoft.

I am no lawyer, but I understand the law says companies based anywhere in the world, provided they have a US parent company, have to disclose information about their customers (without their knowledge or consent) to US law enforcement.

Last time I looked Sony and Nintendo have Japanese parent companies.

So why would those companies to would hand over data.? [your quote]

Look up a law called "patriot act" it gives the US government(NSA and friends) the right to demand access to data of those companies.

 

[FrunkQ]

Look up a law called "patriot act" it gives the US government(NSA and friends) the right to demand access to data of those companies.

I did look up the law and my reading of it says companies based anywhere in the world, provided they have a US parent company, have to disclose information about their customers (without their knowledge or consent) to US law enforcement.

Microsoft is a US based company and does not have a choice. Nowhere in that law does it compel a Japanese company to pass on data. So your understanding of the law is probably wrong.

What Microsoft has to do has no bearing on what Sony & Nintendo have to do.

 

[walltowall]

You already lost trust if you have to explain yourself.

What??? This isn't Reagan era politics. Every company that deals in potentially private data explains themselves with a privacy statement. Go read Sony's and Nintendo's.

 

[deputyspade]

http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/11...t-explains-how-xbox-ones-kinect-collects-data

So, in other words, if you choose to use kinect, you will get spied on and have your data mined for targeted ads and the like.

 

[deputyspade]

Look up a law called "patriot act" it gives the US government(NSA and friends) the right to demand access to data of those companies.

You honestly believe the Patriot Act applies to Japanese companies or any business at all outside the US?

 

[walltowall]

I did look up the law and my reading of it says companies based anywhere in the world, provided they have a US parent company, have to disclose information about their customers (without their knowledge or consent) to US law enforcement.

Microsoft is a US based company and does not have a choice. Nowhere in that law does it compel a Japanese company to pass on data. So your understanding of the law is probably wrong.

What Microsoft has to do has no bearing on what Sony & Nintendo have to do.

You're right, cause at least Microsoft may get a subpoena. Sony and Nintendo will just get straight up jacked by the NSA. If that data has a start or end point in the US I think it's safe to say its fair game.

 

[Marvel]

Dragons Den: I'm out.

 

[MysticGoujon]

Oh look, another case of Microsoft saying something reasonable and certain people go ape. I'm just happy they've clarified exactly what happens, they aren't hiding anything and that's good.

On a side, have Sony released anything like this in regard to their PS Camera?

 

[FrunkQ]

You're right, cause at least Microsoft may get a subpoena. Sony and Nintendo will just get straight up jacked by the NSA. If that data has a start or end point in the US I think it's safe to say its fair game.

At least that means they can generally only spy on data passing into and out of the US and the law states the NSA is not allowed to spy on US citizens. So even this should not be happening.

But we know from the news that the NSA is an out of control monster which seems to be able to ignore laws in their pursuit of "truth, justice and the American way!". Sob!

Also everything becomes further confused by cloud technology (as always) as data may pass through US data centres even if it does not need to. At least Sony & Nintendo can jack up encryption on all its links and not have to just hand the keys to the NSA. Make their job a little more tricky.

Another reason to be a little suspicious of "the cloud" apart from it's dubious ability to help with games outside of providing MP servers.

 

[Coxy]

They sure tried a lot of misdirection in their answers, with the red herring about numerical values and then trying to ssy would be monitoring you by saying anyone can do it

your photograph and voice input are "captured for analysis" but they still dont say what constitutes agreement of control

 

[Caayn]

I did look up the law and my reading of it says companies based anywhere in the world, provided they have a US parent company, have to disclose information about their customers (without their knowledge or consent) to US law enforcement.

Microsoft is a US based company and does not have a choice. Nowhere in that law does it compel a Japanese company to pass on data. So your understanding of the law is probably wrong.

What Microsoft has to do has no bearing on what Sony & Nintendo have to do.

As long as a company has a presence in the USA it is subject to the patriot act. I don't know where you got that "quote" saying that it only affects companies with a parent company but that is simply not true. If you know a way to operate in the USA without your data falling under the patriot act, you'll make a shitton of money here in Europe.

 

[Mr Moose]

Oh look, another case of Microsoft saying something reasonable and certain people go ape. I'm just happy they've clarified exactly what happens, they aren't hiding anything and that's good.

On a side, have Sony released anything like this in regard to their PS Camera?

It works as a camera/mic, tracks and stuff, can also use for navigation (same with the controller), NSA not included.

 

[FrunkQ]

As long as a company has a presence in the USA it is subject to the patriot act. I don't know where you got that "quote" saying that it only affects companies with a parent company but that is simply not true. If you know a way to operate in the USA without your data falling under the patriot act, you'll make a shitton of money here in Europe.

Nope... and companies DO indeed trade in their "non-USness" to offer services in Europe.

Here is a research paper on the reach of the Patriot Act.

"The key criterion in this respect is whether the cloud provider conducts systematic business in the United States, for example because it is based there or is a subsidiary of a U.S.-based company that controls the data in question,"

So I ask again, why would Sony or Nintendo be compelled to hand over data?

I know the US likes to act as if it runs the world, but they actually have no power over other sovereign governments unless they invade them... a viable option I guess

This subject has become somewhat derailed from the "privacy issues of Kinect" and moved to NSA spying like most privacy discussions these days. Sorry, about that but I felt the need to try and correct you as passing on misinformation. The US reach is scary enough without saying they can freely access all of Sony & Nintendo's data too. I hate false equivalency.

If someone has genuine privacy issues then selecting a non-US company for their entertainment is actually a viable option.

 

[Goldmund]

You could say that all big companies comply with their government's requests and desires. It's a bit confusing to put it that way, though, a somewhat crooked perspective. The government is theirs, after all, just like its requests and desires are theirs. It's more of a wistful habit to inaccurately differentiate between the two (like a man who names his genitalia and jokingly supposes a will of their own) than evidence that they're independent institutions.

 

[MysticGoujon]

It works as a camera/mic, tracks and stuff, can also use for navigation (same with the controller), NSA not included.

But have they announced what they'll do with the data? How they'll protect it. Only reason I ask is because Microsoft have repeated emphasised they'll keep kinect data private and not use it, yet people don't believe them, Sony, afiak, haven't said anything yet no one questions it? Do people just trust Sony over Microsoft?

 

[Mr Moose]

But have they announced what they'll do with the data? How they'll protect it. Only reason I ask is because Microsoft have repeated emphasised they'll keep kinect data private and not use it, yet people don't believe them, Sony, afiak, haven't said anything yet no one questions it? Do people just trust Sony over Microsoft?

What data?

The PS camera doesn't come included with the PS4 (unless you get the bundle like me), I don't think they will be any data stored on HDD (apart from pics and stuff you take) and as far as I am aware, doesn't look at you and decide which ads are best for you. Ask @yosp or someone.

 

[Alx]

It's quite ironic that many Americans are reaching the conclusion that they should exclusively use non-US providers to protect their privacy.

 

[FrunkQ]

Do people just trust Sony over Microsoft?

Good default is to Trust No-one

But if you have to have a scale of "lack of trust" I would start with this:

- don't trust anyone who has already betrayed your trust (first to sign up to Prism is a sign)
- don't trust anyone who aims to make most of their money from adverts (Sony's emphasis seems to be on selling you games on their platform and not offering partners the "the future of advertising")
- don't trust anyone whose government has some dubious powers they have frequently abused

Now past record suggests we should indeed trust MS less... but you would be a fool to trust Sony! A fool!

So a good default is to Trust No-one

 

[FranXico]

No, because I know how the camera on my laptop works, it has a led which will always be lit if the camera is on.

While I agree with your post, malicious software that runs a webcam without it turning the LED on exists.

 

[FranXico]

Good default is to Trust No-one

But if you have to have a scale of "lack of trust" I would start with this:

- don't trust anyone who has already betrayed your trust (first to sign up to Prism is a sign)
- don't trust anyone who aims to make most of their money from adverts (Sony's emphasis seems to be on selling you games on their platform and not offering partners the "the future of advertising")
- don't trust anyone whose government has some dubious powers they have frequently abused

Now past record suggests we should indeed trust MS less... but you would be a fool to trust Sony! A fool!

So a good default is to Trust No-one

A thousand times this.

While Sony themselves are far from being saints (we have not forgotten the rootkits fiasco), they also are the lesser of two evils, if one compares them to Microsoft.

 

[Freshmaker]

Unsure why people are singling out Kinect when there's 1001 ways you can be tracked by the NSA (or any agency really wanting to track you for that matter). The least of which a peripheral you don't even need to hook up.

Because we need more of those.

 

[CambriaRising]

While I agree with your post, malicious software that runs a webcam without it turning the LED on exists.

The LED in my laptop cannot be bypassed, if electricity is going to the camera, the LED will always be on. I have had the thing apart myself.

 

[Captain Tuttle]

I don't know, this stuff doesn't bother me that much. I use Google Now though so I've come to terms with privacy issues in this connected age. I certainly see why it would bother some

 

[Caayn]

Nope... and companies DO indeed trade in their "non-USness" to offer services in Europe.

Here is a research paper on the reach of the Patriot Act.

"The key criterion in this respect is whether the cloud provider conducts systematic business in the United States, for example because it is based there or is a subsidiary of a U.S.-based company that controls the data in question,"

So I ask again, why would Sony or Nintendo be compelled to hand over data?

I know the US likes to act as if it runs the world, but they actually have no power over other sovereign governments unless they invade them... a viable option I guess

This subject has become somewhat derailed from the "privacy issues of Kinect" and moved to NSA spying like most privacy discussions these days. Sorry, about that but I felt the need to try and correct you as passing on misinformation. The US reach is scary enough without saying they can freely access all of Sony & Nintendo's data too. I hate false equivalency.

If someone has genuine privacy issues then selecting a non-US company for their entertainment is actually a viable option.

Ah, yes, no.
You keep confusing a parent company with a HQ. Take Sony for example: Sony is the parent and SCEA is a subsidiary. If the situation was that only SCEA operates in the USA, the US government could only demand acces to data belonging to SCEA according to their own law. As Sony itself isn't operating in the USA. However since Sony themselves do operate in the USA they too are subject to the US law and thus the patriot act.
Proof of this in real life can be seen by the latest strategic choices from AMX-IX who's currently expanding into the USA. They're creating a subsidiary solely to operate in the USA, just so they don't fall under the patriot act or other US laws.

 

[Joeki11a]

no wonder they dont want to sell a Kinectless XB1 sku, they made this stuff to collect Data.

 

[ItIsOkBro]

Kinect “measures distances between key points on your face to create a numeric value that represents only you.” This information stays on your console and is not shared.

If you’re playing online “Microsoft may collect those numeric values to enable and improve gameplay and improve the gaming experience”

Is this not a direct contradiction?

 

[SymbiantXenos]

 

[Nibiru]

Do you apply the same rules to all your other devices that may have a camera or microphone on them like phone, laptop, 3DS/Vita, etc?

No because Microsoft was not only involved in PRISM but they were the FIRST on board. This shows a particular eagerness on on their part to spy, gather and divulge user data. Nintendo, Sony and many other companies might still get hacked by NSA but they were not partnered with them like MS, this is the distinction.

 

[Alx]

Is this not a direct contradiction?

No, the "numeric values" they're analyzing for gameplay purpose are those of the "stick figure", not the face measurements. The "stick figure" data have no privacy issue, since there's no way they could be used to reveal your identity in another context (unlike your face).
Those are probably useful to MS to have stats on the accuracy of the body tracking (mean values of segment lengths/speeds, standard deviations etc), which helps to calibrate the tracking models.

 

[Epcott]

In terms of voice chat, however, the privacy statement advises users they “should not expect any level of privacy concerning your use of the live communication features such as voice chat, video and communications in live-hosted gameplay sessions offered through the Services.” Microsoft says it may monitor communications “to the extent permitted by law, but we cannot monitor the entire Service and make no attempt to do so.”

I wonder if this is also true of Sony and Nintendo? If they have the same policy, I don't see why anyone would be sour towards MS about this.

Edit: Yeah, I read this as a sort of disclaimer alluding to the patriot act. Nothing really new. The other two companies will have the same.

 

[Nibiru]

I wonder if this is also true of Sony and Nintendo? If they have the same policy, I don't see why anyone would be sour towards MS about this.

Because of PRISM look it up. Neither Sony or Nintendo were NSA partners.

 

[Alx]

Because of PRISM look it up.

Where in the PRISM leaks do they state that the companies gathered data they were not supposed to ?

 

[Duster]

So when you go online they could send a large group of adverts to your console covering a wide range of products each with a target range on numerical data attached.

Then they can use your temporary "stick figure" and cross reference it against the ads target range and use that data to select which adverts to show you, the stick figure has served it's purpose and is destroyed.
Nothing is shared or can be used to personally identify you but you still get the targeted advert which fits in with the other leaks and rumours we've heard.

Admittedly that's preferable to having your data stored on a database somewhere but if that's not much of a silver lining.

 

[Shiggy]

no wonder they dont want to sell a Kinectless XB1 sku, they made this stuff to collect Data.

It should prove to be worth it both for MS (ads, cashing in on data) and their primary partner, the NSA.

 

[jet1911]

SuperFud spreading Sony warrior will have a field day with this.

 

[Alx]

Admittedly that's preferable to having your data stored on a database somewhere but if that's not much of a silver lining.

That's the whole idea on privacy : not storing private data (without your knowledge nor authorization). If there's no data recorded, there's no privacy issue.
Your concern seems to be about targeted advertisement, which is a whole other topic.

 

[SmokedMeat]

http://m.us.wsj.com/articles/BL-DGB-29951

It's cool guys, we're not looking to track anyone across all of their Microsoft devices.

 

[RedNumberFive]

Where in the PRISM leaks do they state that the companies gathered data they were not supposed to ?

Microsoft never had to gather any data.

They built back doors into Skype and Outlook and gave the NSA an unprecedented level of access and let them handle it.

 

[Taker34]

These privacy issues are the only reason I won't ever get an Xbox One. Not even if I'd get it for free. Never.

 

[jimi_dini]

Microsoft says it may monitor communications “to the extent permitted by law, but we cannot monitor the entire Service and make no attempt to do so.”

Rather: "to the extent permitted by law and orders from secret courts"

And they say "we cannot monitor the entire service". We as in Microsoft. They don't say that noone else will monitor the entire service *cough* NSA *cough*

But there's no practical reason to be concerned about the NSA having access to data that shouldn't exist to begin with.

wat

 

[Alx]

Microsoft never had to gather any data.

They built back doors into Skype and Outlook and gave the NSA an unprecedented level of access and let them handle it.

Exactly, they gave them access to data they were hosting in the context of their regular activity. Prism is a scandal about data access, not data gathering.
I'm ok with people being concerned about the NSA having access to their Xbox live activity. But there's no practical reason to be concerned about the NSA having access to data that shouldn't exist to begin with.

 

[FrunkQ]

Ah, yes, no.
You keep confusing a parent company with a HQ. Take Sony for example: Sony is the parent and SCEA is a subsidiary. If the situation was that only SCEA operates in the USA, the US government could only demand acces to data belonging to SCEA according to their own law. As Sony itself isn't operating in the USA. However since Sony themselves do operate in the USA they too are subject to the US law and thus the patriot act.
Proof of this in real life can be seen by the latest strategic choices from AMX-IX who's currently expanding into the USA. They're creating a subsidiary solely to operate in the USA, just so they don't fall under the patriot act or other US laws.

I can accept that law enforcement agencies can demand content on any servers based in the US and any data under the ownership of SCEA due to the Patriot Act. But are you saying that they can utilise this to demand data from the wider Sony organisation?

I am pretty sure than non-US companies are not subject to the Patriot Act for anything outside the US. Anything inside the US is "fair game" for the authorities.

The recent brouhaha is actually making it difficult for US companies operating outside the US to do this. The EU is currently building sets of laws to make it difficult for big US internet servers and social media providers to transfer European data to third countries by subjecting them to EU law rather than secret American court orders.

I agree the US generally takes the data is wants by illegal means, but every other country in the world is not a witless, passive conduit of all this information. The US is not all powerful. The US can't make laws in other countries, however hard it tries.

I read through your link and it appears that the US based AMS-IX entity is being setup preemptively ; "To guard, however, against potential future changes in US law (leading, for instance, to extraterritorial effect of the USA Patriot Act)"

The CURRENT US Patriot Act seems to be powerless against non-US based company data outside the US. So yes Sony & Nintendo are safe, but data owned by NOA and SCEA will fall foul of this insidious legislature.

 

[Louis Cyphre]

These privacy issues are the only reason I won't ever get an Xbox One. Not even if I'd get it for free. Never.

You really think what you say and do on Nintendo servers and Sony servers are private?

 

[Cyborg]

If Microsoft says it, it must be true!

 

[jimi_dini]

You really think what you say and do on Nintendo servers and Sony servers are private?

I'm pretty sure that NSA won't get a hold on them. That's what's important to me.

 

[Taker34]

You really think what you say and do on Nintendo servers and Sony servers are private?

Yes, because I don't live in the US and SCEE is (probably) unaffected by this. Japanese console in the EU should be the safest option for me.

 

[Haunted]

 

[Caayn]

I can accept that law enforcement agencies can demand content on any servers based in the US and any data under the ownership of SCEA due to the Patriot Act. But are you saying that they can utilise this to demand data from the wider Sony organisation?

Yes, if you have a location in the USA you fall under the US law and thus the patriot act. The only exception to this is if you've got a subsidiary that operates in the USA while the parent does not. In that case only the subsidiary falls under the US law.

I agree the US generally takes the data is wants by illegal means, but every other country in the world is not a witless, passive conduit of all this information. The US is not all powerful. The US can't make laws in other countries, however hard it tries.

In a perfect world it wouldn't make/demand laws in another country. However things such as ethics and moral are long lost in the game of (international) politics. I agree that the US is acting way too cocky with its "we are the world police" behavior. And I'm glad the European Union has finally grown some balls and decided to go against the tyranny of the USA. This part is all my personal opinion and how I see things But that's way besides the topic at hand here

I read through your link and it appears that the US based AMS-IX entity is being setup preemptively ; "To guard, however, against potential future changes in US law (leading, for instance, to extraterritorial effect of the USA Patriot Act)"

The CURRENT US Patriot Act seems to be powerless against non-US based company data outside the US. So yes Sony & Nintendo are safe, but data owned by NOA and SCEA will fall foul of this insidious legislature.

I haven't read the English version, just the Dutch(original) version of the news item. I quickly read through to English version to check wether any information differs, and that doesn't seem to be the case.
AMX-IX state they're going to create a subsidiary in the US. So that they aren't effected by the current patriot act, otherwise they have fall under the patriot act. However they also state that they can make the subsidiary into a orphan foundation to adept to changes in the patriot act.