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[demolitio]

The usual argument I see whenever the Konami/Kojima issue comes up, especially with regards to budgets and delays, is that people really want there to be a good guy and a bad guy with somewhere to point "fault" at. But I think there's another way to look at it - at this point their mutual interests were simply not compatible.

For a big game publisher to invest 80 million dollars or more into expanding their biggest action franchise worldwide into a full open world experience, asynchronous online social hooks integrated into the single player, and a separate team based online multiplayer shooter component on every major platform available... is not a bad idea at all. On its own it is neither a bad investment nor is it a poor business decision - provided that said publisher is interested in this sort of business in the future and interested in continuing to invest into this segment to build on it further.

Konami is not that publisher. Ubisoft is. Kojima was just working for the wrong megacorp.

That's how I view it. They both want different things and Konami is going in the direction of low-risk, high return investments in mobile after seeing all the profits there and finding their own success for cheap, but even staying in the console games industry, MGS games are proving to be quite the investment that they might not feel safe taking anymore. It's not like they NEED to do this when they can print money with their slot machines, etc. so if the risk is higher than their other ventures, it's not surprising that they don't care to do it again.

Of course that doesn't mean what they did is right at all and I still don't like them, but 2 parties going in different directions isn't uncommon and we'll never know the full story when it comes to this game.

Just sucks that it has to happen to one of my favorite series in terms of gameplay.

It's not something other publishers dedicated to console and PC games would shy away from, but I understand why Konami might not be too keen on continuing this trend. It'd be a lot more understandable if the whole thing didn't go down the way it did.

 

[Oblivion]

Keeping a close eye on employees leaving for lunch and shutting off all access to the internet? FUCK. THAT.

I hope Konami files for bankruptcy with draconian shit like this.

 

[heidern]

Konami is not that publisher. Ubisoft is. Kojima was just working for the wrong megacorp.

Ubisoft probably wouldn't waste their time with Kojima. They have multiple other more capable development teams that can make more successful games than Kojipro ever managed.

Even so, $80M is ok if it includes marketing. If it doesn't then with marketing budgets typically matching development costs you'd be looking at a total spend of over $160M which would mean 5-6M copies sold to break even. Maybe MGS5 will still be profitable, but development budgets are increasing and an MGS6 with $100M development budget would be likely to lose money.

 

[A-V-B]

The usual argument I see whenever the Konami/Kojima issue comes up, especially with regards to budgets and delays, is that people really want there to be a good guy and a bad guy with somewhere to point "fault" at. But I think there's another way to look at it - at this point their mutual interests were simply not compatible.

For a big game publisher to invest 80 million dollars or more into expanding their biggest action franchise worldwide into a full open world experience, asynchronous online social hooks integrated into the single player, and a separate team based online multiplayer shooter component on every major platform available... is not a bad idea at all. On its own it is neither a bad investment nor is it a poor business decision - provided that said publisher is interested in this sort of business in the future and interested in continuing to invest into this segment to build on it further.

Konami is not that publisher. Ubisoft is. Kojima was just working for the wrong megacorp.

Ubisoft would've been done with Kojima years ago.

 

[BBboy20]

The usual argument I see whenever the Konami/Kojima issue comes up, especially with regards to budgets and delays, is that people really want there to be a good guy and a bad guy with somewhere to point "fault" at. But I think there's another way to look at it - at this point their mutual interests were simply not compatible.

For a big game publisher to invest 80 million dollars or more into expanding their biggest action franchise worldwide into a full open world experience, asynchronous online social hooks integrated into the single player, and a separate team based online multiplayer shooter component on every major platform available... is not a bad idea at all. On its own it is neither a bad investment nor is it a poor business decision - provided that said publisher is interested in this sort of business in the future and interested in continuing to invest into this segment to build on it further.

Konami is not that publisher. Ubisoft is. Kojima was just working for the wrong megacorp.

Metal Gear would get a churned-out fate either way.

#NoRoomForKojima

Spoiler

 

[valkyre]

I hope these news will make more people to feel as appalled as I do.

I am a huge MGS and Kojima fan and up to now I was going to fork the money to Konami because MGS is my most anticipated game, but after these news came out, I say no more.

I will not buy MGSV upon its release. I know it is hard , but I am going to wait for a used copy.

Seriously Konami seems to be treating its employees in a inhumane and disgusting matter.

I cant accept that. I do hope that with all the fuss that is happening right now, Konami corporate scum will be obligated to change such disgusting practices, treating employees in such ways...

 

[deim0s]

Just read this, I hope people there get out and find better jobs than what's happening to them while with current Konami.

I haven't changed my mind, MGSV is the last game I get out of respect as a fan.

 

[foxuzamaki]

People surprised at $80 million? Mocap, known actors, huge open world, new engine. It's still not even that much for a modern AAA game.

its my understanding that only a few games mostly the GTA games have ever gotten the 100m and up mark.

 

[Theonik]

$80MM+ and that's just development? Sheesh. Witcher 3 was less than half that.

In Poland. Japan pays game developers pretty poorly, but not Poland poor. Most interns I've seen can make more than senior development positions in Poland.

In all seriousness though, it's no wonder he's on the street now. That's a ton of money to spend on a title like MGS.

It really isn't. It's relatively normal for AAA development these days. MGSV will almost certainly break 5m copies and will realistically make back at least twice that.

 

[Last Hearth]

It really isn't. It's relatively normal for AAA development these days. MGSV will almost certainly break 5m copies and will realistically make back at least twice that.

No, it's not normal for even AAA development, and 5 million copies will not even break even give that budget.

 

[oimori]

Oh no now Nikkei changed the title of the article from "Breaking Kozuki kingdom" to "KONAMI's big turn to escape from home-console "

this is obviously　pressure from KONAMI.

 

[KingBroly]

its my understanding that only a few games mostly the GTA games have ever gotten the 100m and up mark.

Wasn't GTAV $255 million with marketing?

And that was before the PS4/XBO/PC versions were announced.

 

[AniHawk]

No, it's not normal for even AAA development, and 5 million copies will not even break even give that budget.

even going with konami making $25 per copy, that's $125m. if the $80m figure doesn't include marketing, then konami would need to waste more than $45m in marketing to not break even.

they'll profit, but it isn't the best way to do it.

 

[CadetMahoney]

Thomas James
@iiotenki

Employees deemed useless have been known to do assemblyline work, security guard detail, cleanup at fitness clubs.

Sounds like that Banishment Rooms Japanese use to out unwanted employees they cannot fire outright:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/08/17/b...-to-the-boredom-room.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banishment_room

Japan’s biggest companies appear to be imitating Sony.

Local media reports say many of them, including Panasonic, NEC and Toshiba, use the oidashibeya, or chase-out rooms, and similar tactics.

 

[Last Hearth]

even going with konami making $25 per copy, that's $125m. if the $80m figure doesn't include marketing, then konami would need to waste more than $45m in marketing to not break even.

they'll profit, but it isn't the best way to do it.

Why use the word "waste", do you not think the game requires a big marketing push to reach its sales potential?

 

[NateDog]

The usual argument I see whenever the Konami/Kojima issue comes up, especially with regards to budgets and delays, is that people really want there to be a good guy and a bad guy with somewhere to point "fault" at. But I think there's another way to look at it - at this point their mutual interests were simply not compatible.

For a big game publisher to invest 80 million dollars or more into expanding their biggest action franchise worldwide into a full open world experience, asynchronous online social hooks integrated into the single player, and a separate team based online multiplayer shooter component on every major platform available... is not a bad idea at all. On its own it is neither a bad investment nor is it a poor business decision - provided that said publisher is interested in this sort of business in the future and interested in continuing to invest into this segment to build on it further.

Konami is not that publisher. Ubisoft is. Kojima was just working for the wrong megacorp.

I'd agree with this too. If the $80m estimate is right then it adds up with what Muranaka was supposed to have said. The question is whether anyone will allow Kojima to go on with his auteur style of development if he desires to stay in the gaming industry. He surely can't be allowed to go anywhere near as far as he's gone with MGSV but I think he will want to go further, I can't see him going to low-budget / indie development.

 

[Matt808]

Let me just do the math for you. $80 MM by April probably means near $100 MM by release. Add another $50 MM to marketing and that's being conservative. Add the fact that over 5 years the baseline return for $100 MM with annual 5% returns (again being conservative) is $127 MM, the game would have to make $177 MM to break even.

At $24MM profit per 1 million copy sold, Konami would have to sell 177/24= 7.3 million copies.

7.3 million copies to break even.

Even if I give them the generous return of $30 MM per 1 million sold, you're still looking at 5.9 million copies sold to break even.

How do you arrive at these numbers? Why would 20% of the total development budget be spent within the final 4 months when assets have been created, motions captured, actors cast, locations scouted...?

And what is the baseline return and why would it be factored into the budget? I've never seen anyone do it for any other game or movie. And 5% in this environment don't sound conservative at all. And on a budget spread over 5 years (which roughly translates into 16 million/year) 5% annually don't amount to 27 million.

Regarding the marketing budget it's just a guess. A reasonable one, but still a guess. The game is supposed to be out in a couple of weeks and I haven't seen much of a marketing push. Doesn't seem like they've booked the deluxe package. Maybe they're going extra cheap and hope for enough buzz from E3 and Gamescom and word of mouth.

Thus, we might end up looking at total costs closer to half of what you're assuming and the break even point moves to around 4 million copies sold. Still just a guess. And we haven't factored in GZ sales. It sold 1 million within it's first months at 30$. Going by your math, Konami would have made at least 12 million profit of that.

 

[Mexen]

Disheartening to say the least. Kojima + team deserve much more respect than this.

 

[SomTervo]

Sounds awful. I can relate to this. I used to work in an environment that started out friendly and then became permeated with extreme distrust from new leadership. Strict time-card monitoring, constantly being watched on camera and called on the intercom to adjust your activities. Every little bit of work scrutinized and investigated to high hell for no reason.

So fucking dehumanizing and discouraging I wound up leaving behind that entire career and just said fuck it and went back to school, whatever the cost.

(Sorry this shit just got mad personal!)

It's absolutely nightmarish how a tiny change in leadership can fuck an entire organisation. A very typical thing to happen. I've left workplaces because of it, people I know have left workplaces because of it – and in any industry. It can happen anywhere. It's happened to me in a bar and in a call centre. It's happened to a friend of mine in health care and support, working with disabled people. It's happened to my dad at a University.

Mismanagement is just one of the worst things in the universe.

Is there love for one more?

.... Please. :/

 

[Theonik]

No, it's not normal for even AAA development, and 5 million copies will not even break even give that budget.

Plenty of AAA projects levitate to $100m these days. You just don't typically hear how much money Ubisoft is flushing down the drain. Showing off the amount of money you spent on a game isn't really in vogue these days for game marketers. I would say a 'typical' current gen AAA budget breaks $50m.

Even with your estimate of a total cost of $100m they can break even with 5m copies making $30 a copy with a $50m marketing budget. I don't understand why you are adding 5% to the cost though. If anything Konami wouldn't be tying that money down for 5 years, instead the amount of money they invest on the project increase in phases. It's weird to be setting a baseline 5% cost on the whole budget.

 

[oimori]

Everyone who talk about MGSV budgets in this thread are staffs of KONAMI.

 

[Dremark]

Yeah I guess that really hits home. Some of my favourite franchises were made by Konami. Sure, Castlevania is living on through Bloodstained but nevertheless, it isnt quite the same. Metal Gear I feel like I've said goodbye to on at least 3 occasions so while I would like it to continue I am not as sad to see it go. I never got into Silent Hill and Contra but I imagine people will be pretty devo about that too.

Castlevania's gameplay style will live on through Bloodstained but the series and it's legacy are done and have been for a while. I really wish we could have gotten the 1999 game for some closure but the chances of anything like that are low.

As much as I love MG and despite the fact I viewed a lot of the story in MGS4 to be somewhat disappointing, MGS4 did a really good job closing the book on the series, it left nothing unanswered and it really felt like the series conclusion. I think it might be partially because he's been planing on stepping aside from the series for ages or perhaps because he doesn't plan anything past the current game, but every Big Boss game has ended at a point where him moving on to MG1 made sense.

I've literally never played Silent Hill. Contra on the other hand as a series has been really janky. The majority of the games feel disconnected story line and game playwise it really felt that the series as a whole felt like it was on life support past the 16 bit days.

This isn't to say there weren't good entries (Shattered Soldier, Neo Contra, Hardcore Uprising and 4 are all worthy games IMO) but it never really felt like it all tied in well together.

 

[Hibiki Kurosawa]

Geez, that sounds disgusting. Employees that are deemed "useless"? What? And development on Suikoden halted? Damn, but can't say I'm surprised.

 

[Theonik]

Geez, that sounds disgusting. Employees that are deemed "useless"? What? And development on Suikoden halted? Damn, but can't say I'm surprised.

Think people like Iga I guess. Basically Konami isn't confident of their ability to create successful products but firing them would be too expensive, maybe they have huge severance pay lined up.

So what they do is they re-assign them to other roles so they leave of their own accord or mess up so that they may be fired.

Sacking people is typically difficult in Japan.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

Castlevania's gameplay style will live on through Bloodstained but the series and it's legacy are done and have been for a while. I really wish we could have gotten the 1999 game for some closure but the chances of anything like that are low.

As much as I love MG and despite the fact I viewed a lot of the story in MGS4 to be somewhat disappointing, MGS4 did a really good job closing the book on the series, it left nothing unanswered and it really felt like the series conclusion. I think it might be partially because he's been planing on stepping aside from the series for ages or perhaps because he doesn't plan anything past the current game, but every Big Boss game has ended at a point where him moving on to MG1 made sense.

I've literally never played Silent Hill. Contra on the other hand as a series has been really janky. The majority of the games feel disconnected story line and game playwise it really felt that the series as a whole felt like it was on life support past the 16 bit days.

This isn't to say there weren't good entries (Shattered Soldier, Neo Contra, Hardcore Uprising and 4 are all worthy games IMO) but it never really felt like it all tied in well together.

Its a series where Arny expies run on helicopter blades shooting lasers at gross-out aliens; I think a weak MULTI INSTALLMENT EPICTRAVAGANZA could be allowed to slide.

 

[AniHawk]

Why use the word "waste", do you not think the game requires a big marketing push to reach its sales potential?

it would be a waste if they spent all of or more than their hypothetical profits to reach said sales, yes.

 

[Opiate]

I'd agree with this too. If the $80m estimate is right then it adds up with what Muranaka was supposed to have said. The question is whether anyone will allow Kojima to go on with his auteur style of development if he desires to stay in the gaming industry. He surely can't be allowed to go anywhere near as far as he's gone with MGSV but I think he will want to go further, I can't see him going to low-budget / indie development.

Right. He's welcome to make an "auteur" driven game if he wants to, but it will likely have to be lower budget. If he wants a higher budget -- that is, if he wants someone to spend millions of dollars to facilitate him making a game -- then he is likely to be forced to change his approach.

What he probably cannot do is have the freedom of an indie with the budget of a $100M blockbuster. It would be like me wanting to make a turn based strategy game -- could I do that? Sure, I can. It's possible. Turn based strategy games still come out all the time, especially on PC and iOS. But what if I not only want to make a turn based strategy game, but specifically insist that the game be given a huge budget and advertising campaign built for the newest consoles? Well, that's where we run in to problems.

 

[Opiate]

As costs continue to go up, the publishers gain increasing control. That sounds sinister, but it's completely reasonable: as costs go up, you're asking them for more and more money to make the next game. You'll be granted more freedom if your budget is $1M, less freedom, if it's $10M, even less freedom if it's $50M, and virtually no freedom at all at $100M. That may seem unfair to you, but I'd love to see how you react when it's your one hundred million dollars on the line.

 

[Deleted member 17706]

Just read the whole article. Sounds like a really shitty place to work where the guy in charge always looked down on video games.

 

[L Thammy]

This isn't a reply to any particular post, but I wonder how many people looking at the number given here have perspective regarding what the budget is supposed to be. I don't just mean that they know of the budget for other games, but that they know what the sales of MGS are, what games do and do not compare to it in terms of sales, and what the budget of those games would be. That's a lot of information that the average gamer doesn't really need to know.

How does someone without that information react when they're given a budget number? I think people will at least understand that it's supposed to be in the millions, but how many millions? One? Ten? A hundred? There's a wide range where the number could be believable if you don't really know any better. Which makes it really easy to let your biases replace the needed context when you try to understand the budget.

If you want Kojima as the bad guy and you don't know what the number is supposed to be, it's very easy to just assume that it's over budget because the number is very big. Most people don't work with millions of dollars. So I don't think all the drive-by posts about how ridiculous the budget are really because MGSV are because people can see that it's over budget, even if it actually is. It's just a really easy assumption to make.

On the other hand, if you want to paint Konami as the bad guy, it's just as easy to assume that the budget is normal because you don't know what the normal is supposed to be. It's a big number, and big budget studios will have budgets that are big numbers. And if you lack perspective on how big MGS is, you're likely to compare it to something else that you know has a big budget without being aware of whether their sales are actually comparable or not.

 

[Overside]

Thanks!

And wow, that mobile money seems to have made Konami's upper management go completely insane.

You are going to start seeing this more and more. Not just in Japan. Very quickly, you will see exactly what games mean to each publisher.

I see many AAAAA studios pulling a Konami the second they see the forecasts that suggests a mobile spread will bring in more money once they remove the opportunity cost of console/pc development.

There will be a bs PR announcement about how they arent abandoning consoles/core 'gamers', but will just be offering more choices, and quietly drip out the last of what was already in the pipelines.

 

[JackelZXA]

I know you're thinking along the lines of "eat it, corporate fatcats", but I don't really think there's anything positive result if Konami execs feel like their money is being wasted. It probably didn't make them treat their employees and better - more likely the opposite. And it probably didn't hurt them too badly because it gives them an excuse to move resources away from traditional game development and towards safer areas.

I don't think MGS5 being on a smaller budget would have changed that. They already had a history of bad relations with their developers. (Team Silent, Igarashi, and like...every other konami games team)

I hope the head CEO of Konami gets hit by a car. Not so that he dies, no but rather so that it is REVEALED that he is infused with Nanomachines. His body hardens over, his eyes glow, he looks around at the chaos and confusion caused by the wreck, and then he jumps into the sky screaming "I DID IT ALL FOR THE PATRIOTS".

 

[Joni]

I don't think MGS5 being on a smaller budget would have changed that. They already had a history of bad relations with their developers. (Team Silent, Igarashi, and like...every other konami games team)

I hope the head CEO of Konami gets hit by a car. Not so that he dies, no but rather so that it is REVEALED that he is infused with Nanomachines. His body hardens over, his eyes glow, he looks around at the chaos and confusion caused by the wreck, and then he jumps into the sky screaming "I DID IT ALL FOR THE PATRIOTS".

He'll just jump in the air, land over the car and scream out 'See gamers, this is what you could if you went to the gym instead of playing stupid games'.

 

[Blablurn]

I seriusly wonder where Kojima is going next.

Which developer gives him the funds he needs? I just cannot imagine that he will go for cheaper concepts now.

 

[Nightengale]

I seriusly wonder where Kojima is going next.

Which developer gives him the funds he needs? I just cannot imagine that he will go for cheaper concepts now.

If he wants to make another open-world game with as much hooks and diversity as MGSV, sure. But I don't imagine a new Silent Hill-ish game or ZoE-ish game will cost him 80 million.

With that being said, it begs the question for the first time of "how much is Hideo Kojima worth to publisher X,Y,Z without the prized IP called Metal Gear Solid?"

Or heck "how much is he worth to a publisher if he doesn't want to make another MGS-style game." If he tells any western publisher he wants to make an anime space robot game, he might just not get a single cent at all, because animu.