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New Smash 4 Ruleset Bans Duck Hunt and Lylat stages, has DL= BF in stage striking
- Thread starter ShinRPGamer
- Start date
Acerac
Banned
ShinRPGamer
Member
It affects Charizard's Bair actually. it comes out 3 frames earlier, which is a pretty big deal since it's one of his best moves. It's part of the reason (the other being the tree) why DH was a good CP when the character couldn't camp him.
LinkSlayer64
Member
Thanks, that's it, I was getting his bair confused with Corn's, dragons lol. It's been months since I watched the video detailing it.
Weltall Zero
Member
Ah, it's the stage! I thought it was the character as well until I read your post, and was thinking "I had no idea he was that good...".
Not saying Duck Hunt is the best stage for Diddy, but ZeRo loved taking people there, even at Genesis 4. He can see he's one of the few Smashers I've noticed that was not on board with the ban.
Personally I think the competitive scene should do whatever it can to have an even playing field. There are a ton of stages 'close to competitively viable', but that doesn't mean they should be using them at the highest level. Save it from friendlies and party time.
ShinRPGamer
Member
With regard to Diddy, it applied more to Lylat than DH. With DH I think it varied on the character the Diddy was facing IIRC.
LinkSlayer64
Member
Meta Knight in Brawl was briefly banned in major rulesets. I think Bayonetta was banned by a few TOs back before her nerfs but nothing quite as sweeping.
Thanks. Doesn't seem like a big deal really, though I can't argue the camping thing. It sucks because I love Duck Hunt and everyone else hating it made me like it even more.
I never liked Lylat Cruise very much anyway.
I'd rather Dream land wasn't be counted as the same stage as Battlefield, but admittedly they are quite similar despite the small differences. I can accept that.
I'd rather Dream land wasn't be counted as the same stage as Battlefield, but admittedly they are quite similar despite the small differences. I can accept that.
I was confused about this ban (and against it) at first, but it makes sense now that I've seen this.
Acerac
Banned
I corrected myself, it's just the Omega stages with lots of grass on the stage or other similarly major problems that are banned.
The dirtiest player I ever saw in Melee got an AT named after him in Brawl.
If you're reading this, fuck off Plank!
fredrancour
Member
pretty sad about this. I'd love the stage list to go the opposite direction and revel in a modest amount of BS.
most of the people who organize the largest tournaments signed off on it. they're just publicizing it as a general recommendation to other TOs.
most of the people who organize the largest tournaments signed off on it. they're just publicizing it as a general recommendation to other TOs.
DecoReturns
Member
Banning Laylat seems stupid in my opinion.
fredrancour
Member
there's a glitch where it's possible to fall through a seemingly-solid portion of the stage under some very specific circumstances. enough TOs believe that's an intolerable flaw to ban it.
Same thing happens in pokemon stadium in melee on one of the transformations.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
I can understand banning DH.
Lylat depends on the extent of the bugs. Pokemon Stadium in Melee has a fall-through-the-stage bug, but it's still a counterpick. But you can also recover from it by clipping back through the stage.
I don't understand Town and City being a counterpick, and it seems like there isn't an explanation given. The only reason to have a counterpick stage is because the stage has controversial elements or specifically benefits a character over many others. Again, Pokemon Stadium in Melee is a counterpick because the low ceiling blastzone strongly favor Fox's vertical KO power and the transformations are very unbalanced and generally lead to a stall until they go away. Town and City doesn't have these problems, there isn't any reason for it to be a counterpick.
Not sure about the Dreamland change. "Protecting players" from SDing due to wind or getting stuck under the stage while recovering is kind of ridiculous. And if the platform heights and blastzones are different from Battlefield that should make enough of a difference to have them be separate stages. I guess Smash 4 is probably different, but platform heights make a big difference in Melee.
Basically Pokemon Stadium 2 from PM. But that will never be the "standard" and probably won't see tournament use outside locals.
Lylat depends on the extent of the bugs. Pokemon Stadium in Melee has a fall-through-the-stage bug, but it's still a counterpick. But you can also recover from it by clipping back through the stage.
I don't understand Town and City being a counterpick, and it seems like there isn't an explanation given. The only reason to have a counterpick stage is because the stage has controversial elements or specifically benefits a character over many others. Again, Pokemon Stadium in Melee is a counterpick because the low ceiling blastzone strongly favor Fox's vertical KO power and the transformations are very unbalanced and generally lead to a stall until they go away. Town and City doesn't have these problems, there isn't any reason for it to be a counterpick.
Not sure about the Dreamland change. "Protecting players" from SDing due to wind or getting stuck under the stage while recovering is kind of ridiculous. And if the platform heights and blastzones are different from Battlefield that should make enough of a difference to have them be separate stages. I guess Smash 4 is probably different, but platform heights make a big difference in Melee.
Basically Pokemon Stadium 2 from PM. But that will never be the "standard" and probably won't see tournament use outside locals.
fredrancour
Member
And some regions have begun using a fan-made hack/patch that loads via memory card to play on frozen pokemon stadium with no transformations at all.
Vital Tundra
Member
FINALLY Duck Hunt is bullshit. Why it wasn't banned sooner is beyond me. 2 characters literally have to use their up special to get up to the branch.
Not sure how I feel about Lylat.
Not sure how I feel about Lylat.
DerekOfTheDykes
Member
Side note: I have never personally dealt with as much meaningless rage as my Smash 4 scene unleashed about two weeks after Bayo was released. I was at one point likened to a Nazi trying to censor discussion because I had the gall to suggest that Bayonetta wasn't the single most game-ruining, game-breaking thing in any fighting game ever (as if any of these local players had ever played any other fighter competitively). Got a lot of flak from not banning her as well.
Back on topic, I'm not generally that upset my the proposed stage changes.I really like playing on Lylat because of how unique the platform layout is, but I acknowledge that Lylat and Duck Hunt are not great stages for competition (for reasons mentioned in the link). I am a fan of clarifying a specific coaching policy, since the midwest has had a few scuffles around coaching and I'm more than happy to see coaching policy become a norm rather than just handwaved.
The one thing I really don't like is that Miis are restricted to 1111. I think that's a poor choice, and that's coming from someone who used to be anti-Mii before players showed me the light.
DerekOfTheDykes
Member
In this ruleset, a certain number of Omega stages are allowed as counterpicks, but they (and FD) all count as a single stage for the purpose of stage striking, just like Battlefield and Dreamland 64 would.
But all Omega stages aren't the same... some of them are different sizes, have different blast zones, are a pillar vs a floating platform, have lips on the edges that effect things like teleporting, etc... the link explains some of this but not all.
balladofwindfishes
Member
And yet in 2 years of Smash 4 high level play, it hasn't made any impact at all on the game.
Huh. as a casual fan who likes playing Omega versions of all levels I never recognized this. Other than some stages floating and some stages not floating. The rest I never picked up on.
UncleSporky
Member
What are these obvious reasons?
Maybe battery? You can't charge while playing
And only one person would be allowed to use a Wii U gamepad per console. You couldn't bring your own (which is what you'd be expected to do for every other controller). If the Wii U gamepad dies, I'm pretty sure the console pushes a reminder to the main screen or something. It just seems like a bad thing all around.
UncleSporky
Member
Oh, one per system, that makes sense. If a matchup has two people who are dead set on it and practiced on it for ages, they're stuck.
I was racking my brain like...can you touch the screen to affect the match in some way...?
BumblebeeCody
Member
Well...
D
Deleted member 30609
Unconfirmed Member
Sorry for asking something I could probably google: what does Battlefield = Dreamland mean in practical terms?
See, this is exactly why we need a stage hazard toggle in Smash 4 Deluxe/Switch. Stages like Wily Castle & Pyrosphere would be perfectly legal if it weren't for the bosses that plague them. Also, bringing over the 3DS stages would go a long way. I'm not sure if Tomodachi Life would be fair game in light of Duck Hunt getting banned, but Yoshi's Island would be a nice legal stage to have.
If I recall, it's because of the fact that TOs may not want to go through the trouble of licensing the music for every single stage to be okay for streaming. The rights situation for the songs in Smash 4 is a hot mess for streamers.
One gamepad per setup, and synching it is very cumbersome. You have to go through the slow process of entering the random code each time. After the set you have to remove the battery to prevent you from interfering with other matches, then when you go to your next match and put your battery back in it's still synched to the old system and you have to restart the entire process.
Because despite the meme of final destination only the smash competitive scene isn't really a big fan of final destination. Ledges provide lots of interesting options during game play while still being fair to both players.
In Smash 4 the most popular stage competitively is Smashville not FD.
Duck Hunt is deserved.
Lylat getting banned doesn't make sense to me. Yes, there's a glitch, but it's demonstrably not affected tournaments.
Dreamland as Battlefield really doesn't make sense.
Lylat getting banned doesn't make sense to me. Yes, there's a glitch, but it's demonstrably not affected tournaments.
Dreamland as Battlefield really doesn't make sense.
Don't blame the player, blame the game.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
It's probably better in Smash 4, but in Melee FD is anything but "neutral." A lot of characters have big advantages there in some matchups. In most Project M rulesets, FD was a counterpick stage and not a starter, and some even argued for it to be banned.
Poltergust
Member
Duck Hunt being gone makes me really sad. I'm also not a fan of BF = DL when it comes to banning because I like the latter while I always ban the former.
I'm glad Omegas are legal again, though. A change of scenery/music is pretty nice every once in a while.
I'm glad Omegas are legal again, though. A change of scenery/music is pretty nice every once in a while.
Duckhuntdog
Member
No, I'm still here.
DerekOfTheDykes
Member
They are very minor differences that really only matter at very high level play. If you play for fun (like the vast majority of Smash's player base) it's extremely unlikely you'd ever notice or think about it. One crazy pro basically has to put a microscope on it and lab it to figure it out at all.
secretanchitman
Member
Duck Hunt stage I get, Lylat Cruise should still be legal - I havent seen the glitches be abused that much in tournaments.
However, I am happy that omega stages are legal now. Finally we get to see more FD stages and some good music to boot.
However, I am happy that omega stages are legal now. Finally we get to see more FD stages and some good music to boot.