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[xool]

How come chiplets are advantage, when it's about CPUs, but suddenly not the right thing, when it is about APUs?

Splitting the CPU and GPU seems ok, but still left with a massive GPU die area .. [GPU is like 75% of APU die space anyway, and the point of splitting is to reduce die area to increase yields .. so need to do more splitting of GPU]

The issue I think is splitting the GPU into smaller GPUlets - problem is rather than sharing a large local (on chip) memory pool/huge register set the GPUlets become mostly separate devices.. cons :

• How will they divide the rendering task ? - eg like Crossfire ??
  • Split screen into areas per GPUlet?
  • Increased bandwidth - textures/geometry will need often to be loaded twice when they overlap GPU screen areas

It seems to me that GPUlets could/would work, but at a cost of (multiplicatively) increased memory bandwidth requirements

[edit - maybe they could make the split at the Shader Engine level - that only requires duplicating the General Data Store and L2 caches .. seems ok ?]

 

[SonGoku]

i already suggested it to @SonGoku

Not necessarily the same question

• In short SSD will be used as a streaming cache so it will reduce the amount of ram reserved for streaming assets that can just be loaded on the fly from the SSD, freeing up precious ram to be used elsewhere.
• SSD won't be used as virtual ram however, too slow for that and will wear down with constant writes, for small things like Bethesda persistent world elements maybe.

For 900 euros? Pshhh 26tf.

FP16

How come chiplets are advantage, when it's about CPUs, but suddenly not the right thing, when it is about APUs?

Pros:
1) yields
2) heat spread
3) flexibility (piecemeal upgradable etc)

Cons:
1) harder to package, perhaps?
2) linked via Infinity Fabric, instead directly... (but what does CPU have to share with GPU anyhow? Do they have shared cache in APUs?)

RT cores might simply be to small to warrant a separate die.

1. I agree separate CPU & GPU dies are not a problem from a performance perspective but to counter it: Zen 2 CCD is only 74mm2 and it can share the GPU IO. There's little to be gained from this, a monolithic die would offer better perf/watt and better long term costs.
2. He mentioned a RT chip separated from the GPU die, which makes no sense, the bandwidth/latency penalty alone would negate any potential benefits. RT is closely conected to the GPU pipeline for max efficiency. We seen this on nvidias arch, PowerVRs and AMDs patent.

The discrete RT chip is a silly theory

 

[Fake]

I don't even know if is possible a 'discrete RT' o0

 

[SonGoku]

I don't even know if is possible a 'discrete RT' o0

Its not lol, the closest to that i can think of where nvidias old dedicated physix card

 

[Fake]

Its not lol, the closest to that i can think of where nvidias old dedicated physix card

Make me wonder wth those guys smoke for make this theory.

 

[Xyphie]

Make me wonder wth those guys smoke for make this theory.

The "Moore's law is dead" guy says very stupid and incorrect things in every video of his I've seen. Just ignore him.

 

[Negotiator]

The "Moore's law is dead" guy says very stupid and incorrect things in every video of his I've seen. Just ignore him.

He clearly knows better than Jim Keller:

Moore's Law is not dead insists Intel's Jim Keller

And the 71st anniversary of the announcement of the first transistor was this weekend.

hexus.net

 

[SonGoku]

TSMC Talks 7nm, 5nm, Yield, And Next-Gen 5G And HPC Packaging

An update on TSMC current and forthcoming logic process nodes as well as their next-generation advanced packaging technologies.

fuse.wikichip.org

N7P
TSMC has started rolling out an optimized version of their N7 process called N7 Performance-enhanced version (N7P). This process goes by various other names such as “2nd generation 7 nm” and “7 nm year 2”. This process should not be confused with N7+. N7P is an optimized, DUV-based, process which uses the same design rules and is fully IP-compatible with N7. N7P introduces FEOL and MOL optimizations which are said to translate to either 7% performance improvement at iso-power or up to 10% lower power at iso-speed.

N7+
TSMC’s N7+ is their first process technology to adopt EUV for a few critical layers. N7+ entered mass production last quarter (Q2). TSMC says they have demonstrated similar yield to N7. Compared to their N7 process, N7+ is said to deliver around 1.2x density improvement. N7+ is said to deliver 10% higher performance at iso-power or, alternatively, up to 15% lower power at iso-performance. On paper, N7+ appears to be marginally better than N7P. Though keep in mind that those improvements can only be obtained through a new physical re-implementation and new EUV masks.

7nm P is the worst case scenario for consoles, with it they can reach ~11TF on a ~200W APU (370-380 mm2 die)
56CUs @1600Mhz = 11.4TF (2SEs beefed up)
54CUs @1600Mhz = 11TF (3 "normal" SEs)

Looking at RDNAs die graphic, i suspect that the SEs are unlike past designs and are designed to scale up by adding more ROPs; Cache etc. Thoughts DemonCleaner ?

Best case Scenario 7nm EUV and 12-14TF

 

[Justin9mm]

I'm thinking that they will be on par with one another.

I think Sony will somehow have the edge. I just can't believe they will allow Xbox to beat them in terms of power. I think at the very least their custom SSD with their ultra quick load times may be the edge they have compared to Xbox's console.

 

[sonomamashine]

We have the best case scenario CPU we would dream of, yet we complain about graphics...
If AMD didnt step up their game we would had a old gen i5 for next gen.
Im happy either way 8-9-10 Tf i dont care, next gen games gonna be good.

 

[SonGoku]

We have the best case scenario CPU we would dream of, yet we complain about graphics...
If AMD didnt step up their game we would had a old gen i5 for next gen.

If you believe in flute we are getting a shitty ass 1700x

 

[DemonCleaner]

TSMC Talks 7nm, 5nm, Yield, And Next-Gen 5G And HPC Packaging

An update on TSMC current and forthcoming logic process nodes as well as their next-generation advanced packaging technologies.

fuse.wikichip.org

7nm P is the worst case scenario for consoles, with it they can reach ~11TF on a ~200W APU (370-380 mm2 die)
56CUs @1600Mhz = 11.4TF (2SEs beefed up)
54CUs @1600Mhz = 11TF (3 "normal" SEs)

Looking at RDNAs die graphic, i suspect that the SEs are unlike past designs and are designed to scale up by adding more ROPs; Cache etc. Thoughts DemonCleaner ?

Best case Scenario 7nm EUV and 12-14TF

have to think about that a bit. i don't think anybody did factor in an in-node process improvement when designing their APU. would just been the icing on the cake. i think a 11TF -400mm² APU would have allways been possible on plain DUV... if they really wanted it.


imo worst case is definitly gonzalo. because it fits in the parameter framework that we used to see last gen. and i don't think it's too unlikely one of them will go with it. but i sure hope competetive pressure is high enough, that they won't.

 

[Racer!]

have to think about that a bit. i don't think anybody did factor in an in-node process improvement when designing their APU. would just been the icing on the cake. i think a 11TF -400mm² APU would have allways been possible on plain DUV... if they really wanted it.

This is much more planned than it looks like from the outside. This is not something that just suddenly comes up.

 

[SonGoku]

i think a 11TF -400mm² APU would have allways been possible on plain DUV... if they really wanted it.

Absolutely but with N7P 11TF isn't as optimistic for DUV, they can actually hit it on a <200W APU. Die size would be between 380-390mm2

 

[R600]

I wonder why everyone forgets about console TDP in all of this? Because, underclocked Navi XT + Zen2 stripped of cache and 16GB of GDDR6 are most likely touching 200W and yet not one console has had 200W barrier broken.

PS3 was 185W launch, while 360 was 170W, and these where magnificent beast of a systems. PS4 was 150W, Xbox One X 180W.

 

[llien]

I agree separate CPU & GPU dies are not a problem from a performance perspective but to counter it: Zen 2 CCD is only 74mm2 and it can share the GPU IO. There's little to be gained from this, a monolithic die would offer better perf/watt and better long term costs.

But Zen 2's IO already is a separate chip.

He mentioned a RT chip separated from the GPU die, which makes no sense, the bandwidth/latency penalty alone would negate any potential benefits. RT is closely conected to the GPU pipeline for max efficiency. We seen this on nvidias arch, PowerVRs and AMDs patent.

I don't even know if is possible a 'discrete RT' o0

Cough, are we talking about the same "RT" guys?
The way RT hardware "sees" the scene is very different from the way traditional part of the GPU would see it.
Namely, RT does "given BHV like structure, perform collision detection".
Why would traditional part of the GPU know about BHV structure?
Why would RT cores give a flying fuck about anything but BHV?

"But I could re-use the piece of silicon that does... dunno, mem cache stuff", yeah, something something, maybe, perhaps, who knows, something.

I wonder why everyone forgets about console TDP in all of this? Because, underclocked Navi XT + Zen2 stripped of cache and 16GB of GDDR6 are most likely touching 200W and yet not one console has had 200W barrier broken.

I guess "EUV something something". To me it still screams "between 5700 and 5700XT" and "WTF guys, we were hoping for maybe a bit below Vega64 levels not so long ago".
And, again, I"m not buying imaginary "next gen will need more for 4k" multiplier. 5700 is perfectly capable of 4k games, it might struggle with generic PC code that is supposed to work on a wide range of GPUs, but even with PC games one could tune settings to a point where 4k is playable. That is how it would work for consoles, developers would specifically target console configurations and tune settings for them (I'm ignoring the "secret sauce" and "coding down to the metal" Fu)

 

[Farrell55]

I wonder why everyone forgets about console TDP in all of this? Because, underclocked Navi XT + Zen2 stripped of cache and 16GB of GDDR6 are most likely touching 200W and yet not one console has had 200W barrier broken.

PS3 was 185W launch, while 360 was 170W, and these where magnificent beast of a systems. PS4 was 150W, Xbox One X 180W.

Of course Launch (fat) ps3 broke the 200w Barriere!

While gaming ps3's peak power consumption was 206 watts

Source https://gizmodo.com/ps3-slim-eats-half-the-electicity-of-the-ps3-fat-5346894

 

[R600]

Of course Launch (fat) ps3 broke the 200w Barriere!

While gaming ps3's peak power consumption was 206 watts

Source https://gizmodo.com/ps3-slim-eats-half-the-electicity-of-the-ps3-fat-5346894

I took it from here :

 

[Farrell55]

I took it from here :

Ok i see

Eurogamer also measured a peak consumption between 195-209 watts for fatps3

Source https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/digitalfoundry-ps3slim-hardware-test-article?page=2

 

[xool]

Yeah but peak vs TDP (average)..

5700/XT board powers (TBP) are already 180/225W .. that's going to go higher for peak power consumption I think

 

[llien]

AMD is developing a larger GPU based on its new "Navi" architecture to power a new high-end graphics card family, likely the Radeon RX 5800 series. The codename "Navi 12" is doing rounds on social media through familiar accounts that have high credibility with pre-launch news and rumors. The "Navi 10" silicon was designed to compete with NVIDIA's "TU106," as its "XT" and "Pro" variants outperform NVIDIA's original RTX 2060 and RTX 2070, forcing it to develop the RTX 20 Super series, by moving up specifications a notch.

Refreshing its $500 price-point was particularly costly for NVIDIA, as it was forced to tap into the 13.6 billion-transistor "TU104" silicon to carve out the RTX 2070 Super; while for the RTX 2060 Super, it had to spend 33 percent more on the memory chips. With the "Navi 12" silicon, AMD is probably looking to take a swing at NVIDIA's "TU104" silicon, which has been maxed out by the RTX 2080 Super, disrupting the company's $500-700 lineup once again, with its XT and Pro variants. There's also a remote possibility of "Navi 12" being an even bigger chip, targeting the "TU102."

AMD Readies Larger 7nm "Navi 12" Silicon to Power Radeon RX 5800 Series?

AMD is developing a larger GPU based on its new "Navi" architecture to power a new high-end graphics card family, likely the Radeon RX 5800 series. The codename "Navi 12" is doing rounds on social media through familiar accounts that have high credibility with pre-launch news and rumors. The...

www.techpowerup.com

Of course Launch (fat) ps3 broke the 200w Barriere!

Only slightly (like 210w or so).

 

[SpinningBirdKick]

Scarlett revision time.

I think I overrated the number of active CUs previously.

• 66 CU die
• 3 shader engines
• 1 dual CU disabled per shader engine
• 60 CUs active
• Clocked at 1700
• 13.06 TF

 

[joe_zazen]

I wonder why everyone forgets about console TDP in all of this? Because, underclocked Navi XT + Zen2 stripped of cache and 16GB of GDDR6 are most likely touching 200W and yet not one console has had 200W barrier broken.

PS3 was 185W launch, while 360 was 170W, and these where magnificent beast of a systems. PS4 was 150W, Xbox One X 180W.

And loss per console is often forgotten too. 20 million boxes first year with hypothetical $200 per unit loss = 4 billion. PS+ monies makes that a reasonable business strat if there is heavy competition from microsoft and a road to cost reduction is readily available for year two and power is important for winning. Those kinds of losses in 2006 could not be justified.

We could see a beast, we could see a ps4 milquetoast, and anything in-between, depends on what Sony believes they need to do to beat microsoft’s console. The only thing we wont see is a sony portable.

 

[GermanZepp]

You guys want to pre order PS5?

https://www.mediamarkt.se/sv/product/_sony-playstation-5-1283580.html

 

[ANIMAL1975]

Ja, tacka dig! Tack så mycket!

 

[vpance]

Old rumor about PS4 super slim

sometime between september and november
199
fabbed on samsung 7nm EUV
best wafer pricing in the industry
die size 110mm²
no PRO refresh, financially not viable yet
too close to PS5 as well

If this comes to pass, we should have great expectations for PS5.

 

[LordOfChaos]

Old rumor about PS4 super slim



If this comes to pass, we should have great expectations for PS5.

If that's EUV then the chances that the PS5 is not would fall to near zero imo. But where was that rumor from?

Especially with "best wafer pricing in the industry", surely combining orders for that.

 

[SonGoku]

I wonder why everyone forgets about console TDP in all of this? Because, underclocked Navi XT + Zen2 stripped of cache and 16GB of GDDR6 are most likely touching 200W and yet not one console has had 200W barrier broken.

PS3 was 185W launch, while 360 was 170W, and these where magnificent beast of a systems. PS4 was 150W, Xbox One X 180W.

Not forgetting anything it is you who is ignoring key elements of the TDP puzzle
A 56CU part at ~1600Mhz will hit the perf/wat sweet spot, we already seen an underclocked 5700XT shave ~100W

What's more improved yields (+1 year of maturing) and refined N7P process means the chip will run at lower voltages, all things considered i think a 56CU/1600MHz; 20-24GB GDDR6 APU will comfortably hover around 200W take or add

PS360 are designs from another era, drawing parallels to current tech is pointless, PS4 doesn't count: cheap $400 system when consoles merit was under scrutiny
The Xbox One X is the perfect example of technology moving forward, it can push upwards of 200W depending of model (see hobbit method) on a slim case thanks to the vapor chamber

A vapor chamber can handle a 250W APU, a 200W APU with room to spare on a traditional phat case.

But Zen 2's IO already is a separate chip.

That's the advantage an APU design has, it only needs to add the GPU DIE with Zen2 CCD, the APU shares one die between GPU & CPU

Cough, are we talking about the same "RT" guys?

The bandwidth and latency penalty of having it on a separate die will negate any possible benefits
Did you see AMD patent? why are we even entertaining the possibility lol?

 

[Fake]

Maybe when PS5 release they kick PS4 Slim out and release PS4 PRO Slim. I mean, base PS4 slim got replace by PRO slim following the same price maybe?

 

[Negotiator]

Next-gen starts in 2023:

NVIDIA's Morgan McGuire: "First triple-A game to require a ray tracing GPU will be released in 2023"

While real-time ray tracing is a tech that NVIDIA is currently trying to push, it appears that the first triple-A game that will require a Ray Tracing graphics card will not be coming out anytime soon. According to NVIDIA’s Morgan McGuire, the first triple-A game that will not run on non-Ray...

www.dsogaming.com

 

[R600]

Not forgetting anything it is you who is ignoring key elements of the TDP puzzle
A 56CU part at ~1600Mhz will hit the perf/wat sweet spot, we already seen an underclocked 5700x hit 1680Mhz at 120W

What's more improve yields (+1 year of maturing) and refined N7P process means the chip will run at lower voltages, all things considered i think a 56CU/1600MHz; 20-24GB GDDR6 APU will comfortably hover around 200W take or add

PS360 are designs from another era, drawing parallels to current tech is pointless, PS4 doesn't count, cheap $400 system when consoles merit was under scrutiny
The Xbox One X is the perfect example of technology moving forward, it can push upwards of 200W depending of model (see hobbit method) on a slim case thanks to the vapor chamber

A vapor chamber can handle a 250W APU, a 200W APU with room to spare on a traditional phat case.

It wont anything close as 125W 5700XT is also undervolted, and missing RT cores.

Mind you, your example at 1680MHz is 8.6TF, and even if its 125W its pushing it because there are many other parts which you need to feed electricity with.

16GB of GDDR6 is roundabout 30W and Zen2, even stripped of cache, is not gonna be lower then 25W.

So 180W for 8.6TF APU without RT cores and without IOs, BD drive.

How would you fith 40% more cores there at same TDP when this is already pushing it? Because for 40% more CUs you will also need more BW, and that means more TDP from memory side as well.

I see you have mentioned they can have vapor cooling at 250W easily, but if thats the case then there must be a reason why they went with sub 200W consoles in pretty much every generation thus far, no?

Also we know Navi sweet spots are 1.2GHZ and 1.8GHZ. 1.6GHZ will not yield nearly enough to cover 4 additional CUs, let alone 16.

 

[sonomamashine]

Maybe when PS5 release they kick PS4 Slim out and release PS4 PRO Slim. I mean, base PS4 slim got replace by PRO slim following the same price maybe?

they should make a portable PS4.

 

[llien]

2070 super = same 2560 units as Navi
2080ti = 4352 units

The bandwidth and latency penalty of having it on a separate die will negate any possible benefits
Did you see AMD patent? why are we even entertaining the possibility lol?

BHV like structure doesn't need to be large.
As for patent, I don't see anything that IF couldn't pass over.

Regardless, we are talking about theoretical possibility, there largely is as much for RT cores to have in common with the rest of GPU, as for the CPU, the "are you crazy" reaction to separate RT chip was not right.

 

[Negotiator]

Old rumor about PS4 super slim

If this comes to pass, we should have great expectations for PS5.

"best wafer pricing in the industry" is all we need to convince infidels.

It just makes (financial) sense.

If that's EUV then the chances that the PS5 is not would fall to near zero imo. But where was that rumor from?

Especially with "best wafer pricing in the industry", surely combining orders for that.

What about combining orders for DRAM too (2GB GDDR6 chips, only 4 chips needed for PS4 Super Slim)?

Maybe when PS5 release they kick PS4 Slim out and release PS4 PRO Slim. I mean, base PS4 slim got replace by PRO slim following the same price maybe?

PS4 Pro targets enthusiasts that want to play 1st party exclusives at the highest quality/performance.

Guess what PS5 will do? It will make PS4 Pro obsolete. That's why a die shrink doesn't make sense for that.

PS4 Super Slim will target the masses (Fortnite, FIFA etc.) with its sweet $199 MSRP.

 

[SonGoku]

It wont anything close as 125W 5700XT is also undervolted, and missing RT cores.

Say ~150W for arguments sake, add 30W for CPU. That's a 180W APU
Memory chips aren't part of the die, they are easier to cool even if 10x 2GB chips drew ~40W

without IOs, BD drive.

IO included, BD drive doesn't matter

How would you fith 40% more cores there at same TDP when this is already pushing it? Because for 40% more CUs you will also need more BW, and that means more TDP from memory side as well.

You are mixing the APU with other parts, the APU TDP is the most important part for cooling
The APU will fall under 200W (~180W for this example) the memory chips add another 40W, say board components, SSD and what not add another 20W. You are looking at ~250W.
Not bad at all, most home apliances these days consume more than that.

but if thats the case then there must be a reason why they went with sub 200W consoles in pretty much every generation thus far, no?

Different times, different technologies. Going with a 250W console next gen will cost alot less than either PS2 & PS3 did
With todays tech is also possible to mass produce reliable electronics that push 200W+

 

[R600]

SonGoku, last time around (actually everytime), memory was included as well. If that is the case, PS4 was 100W system because memory should not be counted.

They have strict EU regulatives on TDP and they have kind of a gentlemans agreement not to poke a bear and be under and around TDP limit. 180W only for APU means 220+ W for entire system. Therefore, never done before.

This is with GPU slower then Navi XT mind you, because undervolted 1.6GHZ 40CU part is already pushing it.

For example, HD7850 was 96W GPU at its absolute peak. And that is what ended up in PS4. Will this time be different, I think so, thats why I assume 9TF because if it was rewind of last gen, you would be looking at 7TF GPU.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

IMO.....

APU ~125W max
RAM 16GB GDDR6 ~20-30W
BD Drive ~10W
SSD ~4-6W
WIFI/BT ~5W
Various other bits inc DDR4/Fan/Other chips ~10-15W

All of the above needs to come in at the wall under 200W max for the whole console including PSU losses. 180W budget just for the APU is crazy talk.

 

[SonGoku]

As for patent, I don't see anything that IF couldn't pass over.

Spoiler

RT is deeply connected to the GPU pipeline shaders and tmus
Even if you could separate it on it own chip, the latency and bandwidth penalty would negate any advantage

Regardless, we are talking about theoretical possibility, there largely is as much for RT cores to have in common with the rest of GPU, as for the CPU, the "are you crazy" reaction to separate RT chip was not right.

We have now 3 different companies (Nvidia, AMD, PowerVR) to judge their respective RT approach, all of them deeply integrated into the GPU pipeline.
Haven't seen anything that suggests a discrete RT die would make sense.

 

[Fake]

Guess what PS5 will do? It will make PS4 Pro obsolete. That's why a die shrink doesn't make sense for that.

PS4 and PRO are the same, so in that sense, the PS5 will not obsolete the PS4 neither PRO, plus my theory of PRO replacing the base PS4 'at the same price' while PS5 getting the launch price of PRO or higher, of course only 'if' PRO get a slim revision model (the size or really close size as PS4 Slim) with 7mn at the low price (low price = base PS4 price).

 

[SonGoku]

SonGoku, last time around (actually everytime), memory was included as well. If that is the case, PS4 was 100W system because memory should not be counted.

I brought up the APU, because thats what matters the most for the system thermals. Individual memory chips are much easier to cool. 180W APU + 40W memory chips can be cooled with room to spare by a vapor chamber.

From a costs perspective you are looking at a more powerful PSU to support the remaining electronics

They have strict EU regulatives on TDP and they have kind of a gentlemans agreement not to poke a bear and be under and around TDP limit. 180W only for APU means 220+ W for entire system. Therefore, never done before.

I believe N Negotiator posted a document that proved there was no such limiration for load, it only deals with idle power consumption

All of the above needs to come in at the wall under 200W max for the whole console including PSU losses. 180W budget just for the APU is crazy talk.

No such wall exists, purely mythology from internet forums
The Sleek X already broke the 200W wall on some models (hobbit method)

 

[Mass Shift]

It wont anything close as 125W 5700XT is also undervolted, and missing RT cores.

Mind you, your example at 1680MHz is 8.6TF, and even if its 125W its pushing it because there are many other parts which you need to feed electricity with.

16GB of GDDR6 is roundabout 30W and Zen2, even stripped of cache, is not gonna be lower then 25W.

So 180W for 8.6TF APU without RT cores and without IOs, BD drive.

How would you fith 40% more cores there at same TDP when this is already pushing it? Because for 40% more CUs you will also need more BW, and that means more TDP from memory side as well.

I see you have mentioned they can have vapor cooling at 250W easily, but if thats the case then there must be a reason why they went with sub 200W consoles in pretty much every generation thus far, no?

Also we know Navi sweet spots are 1.2GHZ and 1.8GHZ. 1.6GHZ will not yield nearly enough to cover 4 additional CUs, let alone 16.

These are more than fair points you're making here. I would only say consider that AMD, Sony and MS' teams of engineers have already had this discussion and argued it to it's most academic conclusion.

They already have their solutions for all these critical points.

I think the fun will be in learning how each team went about it, and I'm sure it'll reveal some creative steps that even SonGoku didn't think of.

But I think the major concern many of us have here is wondering if Sony or MS console went for the lowest hanging fruit to find the proper balance. And that's why I continue to find your points sobering.

 

[Negotiator]

PS4 and PRO are the same, so in that sense, if PS5 will not obsolete the PS4 neither PRO, plus my theory of PRO replacing the base PS4 'at the same price' while PS5 getting the launch price of PRO or higher, of course 'if' PRO get a slim revision model with 7mn at the low price (low price = base PS4 price).

PS4 base will always be cheaper (smaller die) and that's what matters for the masses. 110mm2 die is mobile SoC territory.

PS5 will supersede PS4 Pro in every single aspect (native PS4 BC, better performance/quality etc.). Honestly, I don't see an audience for PS4 Pro Slim, nor do I think it's gonna become the next baseline (do you honestly want Jaguar @ 2.13 GHz to constrain next-gen game design?).

Remember, die shrinks aren't "free" (the tape out process costs millions of dollars). PS4 Pro has sold a lot less units than PS4 base and sales are gonna plummet with the PS5.

 

[SonGoku]

PS4 and PRO are the same, so in that sense, the PS5 will not obsolete the PS4 neither PRO, plus my theory of PRO replacing the base PS4 'at the same price' while PS5 getting the launch price of PRO or higher, of course only 'if' PRO get a slim revision model (the size or really close size as PS4 Slim) with 7mn at the low price (low price = base PS4 price).

People on the market for a premium experience will buy a PS5 not a Pro.
People on the market for a cheap console will buy a PS4 Slim not a Pro

Which one do you think will sell better: $200-250 PS4 slim or $300 Pro?
I think Sony will shrink the console with potential to sell the most.

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

No such wall exists, purely mythology from internet forums
The Sleek X already broke the 200W wall on some models (hobbit method)

It isn't a law more a practical target. Going over 200W means an even bigger case, more substantial and costlier cooling and higher wattage PSU etc. Has a big knock-on effect for price and costs.

I stand by my opinion that the APU alone won't come close to 180W, though. Feel free to bookmark this post on this point.

 

[Fake]

People on the market for a premium experience will buy a PS5 not a Pro.
People on the market for a cheap console will buy a PS4 Slim not a Pro

Which one do you think will sell better: $200-250 PS4 slim or $300 Pro?
I think Sony will shrink the console with potential to sell the most.

Just if PRO became a PS4 understand that? Even if the tag name was removed, price beccame similar, etc...
Don't need to drive much into this. Just especulation.

 

[SonGoku]

Just if PRO became a PS4 understand that? Even if the tag name was removed, price beccame similar, etc...
Don't need to drive much into this. Just especulation.

But the regular PS4 has potential to reach a lower price point. For end of gen sales low price is the number one factor driving sales, people buying a PS4 when PS5 is out dont care about 4k, all they care about is cheap price

 

[Fake]

But the regular PS4 has potential to reach a lower price point. For end of gen sales low price is the number one factor driving sales, people buying a PS4 when PS5 is out dont care about 4k, all they care about is cheap price

Was a long way of for that happen and the price of the base PS4 almost don't get that 'low', at least in expectations. I agree with you, they're looking for low price. In the other hand I can see PRO getting a very agressive price cut due to the close release of PS5, in my view point, PRO will need to get an agressive price discount because he will lost the tag of 'premium' console vs PS5, in comparison with playstation system vs playstation system.

 

[Negotiator]

If that's EUV then the chances that the PS5 is not would fall to near zero imo. But where was that rumor from?

Especially with "best wafer pricing in the industry", surely combining orders for that.

"Samsung has apparently "aggressively undercut" TSMC"

Samsung Undercuts TSMC, to Fab Nvidia Ampere on Its 7nm Process - Report

According to a report from DigiTimes and EETimes, Nvidia will fab its upcoming Ampere architecture on Samsung's 7nm EUV process rather than on the 7nm process from TSMC

www.tomshardware.com

"one source said that Samsung is aggressively undercutting prices for its 7-nm node with EUV, offering some startups a full mask set for less than a multi-layer mask (MLM) set at its rival"

https://www.eetimes.com/document.asp?doc_id=1334769

 

[Farrell55]

They have strict EU regulatives on TDP and they have kind of a gentlemans agreement not to poke a bear and be under and around TDP limit. 180W only for APU means 220+ W for entire system. Therefore, never done before.

Thats only 10-20 watts more than Launch ps3 (209w) and that was 14y ago... a 250w nextgen System isnt a miracle

 

[Negotiator]

Was a long way of for that happen and the price of the base PS4 almost don't get that 'low', at least in expectations. I agree with you, they're looking for low price. In the other hand I can see PRO getting a very agressive price cut due to the close release of PS5, in my view point, PRO will need to get an agressive price discount because he will lost the tag of 'premium' console vs PS5, in comparison with playstation system vs playstation system.

PS4 Pro will be phased out. That's my take on it.

There will be no place (market niche) for it in late 2020.