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Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Console tEch threaD

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Bo_Hazem

Banned
On another note guys....how about that Ghost of Tsushima reveal today? From the past trailers I honestly expected them to push the game out further and finally announce it was actually a PS5 title, but it's all PS4 and looks AMAZING. Of course, I can see some differences with that UE5 demo from yesterday, but still. This thing looks IMPRESSIVE. As long as it performs in game like we're seeing in these trailers.....just.....WOW. I am so hyped for this game. I was REALLY waiting for TLOU2 but the "leaks" have tempered my excitement a good bit (unfortunately I wasn't able to avoid spoilers, at least the written kind). I'm STILL hoping that the leaks came from an earlier version of the game and story but we'll see.

In any case, I'm still hyped for TLOUS2 and getting more hyped for Ghost of Tsushima by the day! Anyone else?

Me watching the 'State of Play' today!


Well, last trailer didn't feel right to me, but probably because it's on easy mode. It looks extremely easy, I hope it's as hard and punishing as GOW at max difficulty. Naughty Dog games are pretty hard anyway, so they bring the joy of accomplishment pretty well. I'm getting the highest possible version preorders from both!
 

Bryank75

Banned
It didn't age well lol

The difference is 40-50fps between the SX and the ps5 in favor to SX.

AC Valhalla end up being 30fps 🤣🤣🤣🤣
xOnKiP0.jpg
Nothing dealer ever says ages well....

Edit: 'It's maths'
 
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Corndog

Banned
This talks a little about equivalent pc and what it would take to make up for ssd standard in consoles. You will see some familiar statements about increasing ram.

 
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Wrong. I said they weren’t using billions of polys. Don’t change what I said. Quote me if you want.

Edit: here is my actual statement.
“ They are not showing hundreds of billions of polygons. Pure marketing speak by epic.”
It was over 100Billion polygons for the entire demo. That is the quality of the assets. Same as you don't see the billion polygons on hollywood directly onscreen, as even hollywood tends to master at 4k with just 8million pixels. Most of the polygons would be subpixel and invisible without something like reyes or nanite to do proper display of the detail.
 

Ascend

Member




I remember someone on the thread talking about how we don’t know the latency performance of the PS5’s SSD. I don’t know exactly what that means but the Epic Games engineer seemed to be vague but positive about it.

1st tweet: Nothing new. See my reply here;

2nd tweet: Nothing new still

3rd tweet: Layering and overhead. Just like tweet 1 and tweet 2 in different words.
 

Sinthor

Gold Member
I want to pick PS5 as fast as possible and act as if PS4 and previous gens never existed :messenger_tears_of_joy: After that demo, I'm having a hard time to play the upcoming current gen games:messenger_grinning_sweat:

Well, i'll still probably play Dark Souls 3 and Elite: Dangerous at least in BC mode...at least until something really replaces them. I'm looking forward to any possible UPGRADES of late PS4 games up to PS5 versions though. I'm hopeful. Regardless, at least for a while I'm sure I'll hook up an external HD to my PS5 to deal with the library of PS4 games I have digitally or in the 'library' where they can be downloaded at will. I figure it will take a year or so for the PS5 to have enough titles that I won't need to go back at all..? But we'll see. I am so hyped for PS5 now after that demo yesterday. To be clear, I would be super hyped for the new Xbox as well if that was what I was planning on purchasing. The bottom line is that the MS game event showed some cool stuff, but nothing that really just seemed to show that 'next gen' type of feel. The UE5 demo fixed that! THAT is what we'll be expecting from the new machines...and it will only get BETTER! SIGN ME UP! That pre-order money can't get spent fast enough once they announce I CAN make a pre-order!
 

user1337

Member
I want to pick PS5 as fast as possible and act as if PS4 and previous gens never existed :messenger_tears_of_joy: After that demo, I'm having a hard time to play the upcoming current gen games:messenger_grinning_sweat:
I agree! That said, ghost of Tsushima is looking really good to me. It's like a love child between my two favourite games that I have been playing over the last couple of months; assassin's creed odyssey and Nioh 2. Definitely going to get it after the show case today.
 
Well, i'll still probably play Dark Souls 3 and Elite: Dangerous at least in BC mode...at least until something really replaces them. I'm looking forward to any possible UPGRADES of late PS4 games up to PS5 versions though. I'm hopeful. Regardless, at least for a while I'm sure I'll hook up an external HD to my PS5 to deal with the library of PS4 games I have digitally or in the 'library' where they can be downloaded at will. I figure it will take a year or so for the PS5 to have enough titles that I won't need to go back at all..? But we'll see. I am so hyped for PS5 now after that demo yesterday. To be clear, I would be super hyped for the new Xbox as well if that was what I was planning on purchasing. The bottom line is that the MS game event showed some cool stuff, but nothing that really just seemed to show that 'next gen' type of feel. The UE5 demo fixed that! THAT is what we'll be expecting from the new machines...and it will only get BETTER! SIGN ME UP! That pre-order money can't get spent fast enough once they announce I CAN make a pre-order!
There's a rumored demon souls remake, iirc, that has me hyped.
 

FeiRR

Banned
On the topic of what will change the world of manufacturing, I’d trust the guy that designed the CNC machine over the guy spinning 3D models around in CAD.
Nicely put. I'd add my three cents: I'd trust the engineer but never the sales rep. Their job is to lie.

My questions for this approach.
1. How much processing power is needed to generate these new polys?
2. Are they also using a similar procedure for textures?( Like what Microsoft seems to be doing).
3. How much space are these huge datasets going to take up?
I'll solve your little mystery:
1. As much as the workstation where they were prepared has, which was probably cloud based. They were talking explicitly about source material with billions of triangles and that they can be imported directly into the engine. It doesn't mean they are imported into the devkit where the rendering happens. I'm sure the data is going through compression before that. Raw coordinates should compress very well, probably over tenfold at least.
2. Of course textures will be compressed as well. This happens both in hardware and software these days. Raw textures take up too much space (an 8K texture is about 80 MB).
3. It doesn't matter. They were talking about running it on a devkit so their demo can take the whole 800 GB of space if needed. It's not a game they're shipping to people, they can be lavish with data. Nobody is going to use 8K textures for games, that's crazy... Well, ok, I can see Kojima doing some crazy shit like that.

As for your engineering title, I'm an MA with no technical education :messenger_winking:

Seen them before, I like FOMO videos. Just said that screen-tearing has never ever happened to me. I'm getting the Sony XH90 (X900H) with HDMI 2.1 full support (4K@120Hz, VRR, ALLM), but only stating that I've never seen screen tearing in practice. Maybe it's just PS4/Pro?
It's consoles in general (except for sloppy ports, that was mainly in the PS3 era) because you exactly know the hardware so you can optimize the refresh rate (frame output) to match the specs. And you can be certain that the display will be 60 Hz or the multiple of that. Tearing is a huge dealbreaker for me, much more than < 30 FPS. On PC screen tearing is a nightmare because you have millions of hardware combinations, including refresh rates in various monitors. That's why sync techniques have been developed. There's also double and triple buffering and it's quite standard now, fortunately.
 
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Bo_Hazem

Banned
Well, i'll still probably play Dark Souls 3 and Elite: Dangerous at least in BC mode...at least until something really replaces them. I'm looking forward to any possible UPGRADES of late PS4 games up to PS5 versions though. I'm hopeful. Regardless, at least for a while I'm sure I'll hook up an external HD to my PS5 to deal with the library of PS4 games I have digitally or in the 'library' where they can be downloaded at will. I figure it will take a year or so for the PS5 to have enough titles that I won't need to go back at all..? But we'll see. I am so hyped for PS5 now after that demo yesterday. To be clear, I would be super hyped for the new Xbox as well if that was what I was planning on purchasing. The bottom line is that the MS game event showed some cool stuff, but nothing that really just seemed to show that 'next gen' type of feel. The UE5 demo fixed that! THAT is what we'll be expecting from the new machines...and it will only get BETTER! SIGN ME UP! That pre-order money can't get spent fast enough once they announce I CAN make a pre-order!

I was actually planning to buy the next Big Navi to play Xbox exclusives if they were on the level of Hellblade 2, but that Matt Booty confirmation made me skip the idea. Might still get Big Navi if it's priced below $1400 for its insane 24GB HBM2E Vram and 2TB/s bandwidth, just for the luxury of more speedy rendering as Radeon VII is still insanely good at that with 16GB HBM2 Vram and 1TB/s bandwidth.
 
T

Three Jackdaws

Unconfirmed Member
1st tweet: Nothing new. See my reply here;

2nd tweet: Nothing new still

3rd tweet: Layering and overhead. Just like tweet 1 and tweet 2 in different words.
Didn’t see your reply as I have not read that thread. I posted this in response to those questioning the PS5’s SSD latency when compared to the Series X but judging from those tweets that will not be a problem.
 
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Corndog

Banned
you don't need to. As even 4k is about 8million pixels. 8Billion polygons onscreen is senseless. 1000 polygons per pixel? That doesn't make sense. But 8Billion polygons per scene makes sense. This is an approach similar to pixar reyes with micropolygons.

The 33 M statue gets close to the screen, the sufficient detail is shown on screen. You get close enough, and the Millions of polygons on screen are all from the statue's close up. There is only so much geometry you can resolve for a given resolution.

edit hollywood cgi pixar reyes
notice the 1 micropolygon per pixel quite similar to the nanite approach. That is why such cgi does not actually put the billions of polygons on screen as it'd be meaningless with just 8million pixels.


The scene needs the billions of polygons or you will get polygonal edges when you get close to elements of the scene. Some film cgi models have more polygons than even 4k has pixels, what do you think happens to the excess polygons that would clearly be subpixel size? Would the film cgi model be the same without the tens of millions of polygons? Clearly not.
Sorry for slow reply. I don’t have a large understanding of current rendering practices for film but what I have read in the past on renderman was that they didn’t break things into polygons. They kept them as primitives. So a sphere would just be it’s location and then it’s radius. Storing it this way you use little space and can have near infinite precision.

I don’t know if they used primitive shapes for everything because some shapes would be difficult to break down into primitives.
I haven’t done more then skim this link but I believe it talks about it.

 

Sinthor

Gold Member
Well, last trailer didn't feel right to me, but probably because it's on easy mode. It looks extremely easy, I hope it's as hard and punishing as GOW at max difficulty. Naughty Dog games are pretty hard anyway, so they bring the joy of accomplishment pretty well. I'm getting the highest possible version preorders from both!

Yes, I know what you mean about the combat bit not seeming quite right. I assume as well that it was on...maybe even a LOWER difficulty than "Easy" because they wanted to show the moves and cool stuff without actually having to fight the AI. Those enemies hardly fought back at all. Sometimes NOT at all. I expect the game will be quite different. The idea of being able to go the straight-ahead 'honorable' Samurai route where you give the enemies full warning and kill them anyway, versus the 'dishonorable' ninja way of sneaky backstabbing, using bombs, etc., just seems way too cool. Seems like it will give the game some true replay value since you can go one route or a mix of them the first time thru and then try playing again as fully either one style or the other. I love the music I've heard so far with the game as well. Really gives it a cool ambience. I hope the story and delivery of the story and acting is as it seems in the trailers as well.

For me, The Last of Us was the first video game to really make me FEEL the story and care about it and the characters to the degree a good novel or TV series can. From the very starting sequence which really punched me in the gut, to the very end. I want to see more games with truly good stories and acting to go with the jaw dropping graphics. So we'll see! TLOU2 coming out next month and then Ghost in July! Going to keep me busy this summer. I have to hurry up and finish FF7 remake. I'm still being pulled back into Nioh 2 periodically as well. Really great games have been coming out as this generation hits its sunset!
 

Corndog

Banned
Nicely put. I'd add my three cents: I'd trust the engineer but never the sales rep. Their job is to lie.


I'll solve your little mystery:
1. As much as the workstation where they were prepared has, which was probably cloud based. They were talking explicitly about source material with billions of triangles and that they can be imported directly into the engine. It doesn't mean they are imported into the devkit where the rendering happens. I'm sure the data is going through compression before that. Raw coordinates should compress very well, probably over tenfold at least.
2. Of course textures will be compressed as well. This happens both in hardware and software these days. Raw textures take up too much space (an 8K texture is about 80 MB).
3. It doesn't matter. They were talking about running it on a devkit so their demo can take the whole 800 GB of space if needed. It's not a game they're shipping to people, they can be lavish with data. Nobody is going to use 8K textures for games, that's crazy... Well, ok, I can see Kojima doing some crazy shit like that.

As for your engineering title, I'm an MA with no technical education :messenger_winking:


It's consoles in general (except for sloppy ports, that was mainly in the PS3 era) because you exactly know the hardware so you can optimize the refresh rate (frame output) to match the specs. And you can be certain that the display will be 60 Hz or the multiple of that. Tearing is a huge dealbreaker for me, much more than < 30 FPS. On PC screen tearing is a nightmare because you have millions of hardware combinations, including refresh rates in various monitors. That's why sync techniques have been developed. There's also double and triple buffering and it's quite standard now, fortunately.
Your answer to 1 is exactly my opinion. That’s why I said bull crap on the billions of polys in the first place.

mov ax, 1
 
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Bo_Hazem

Banned
Yes, I know what you mean about the combat bit not seeming quite right. I assume as well that it was on...maybe even a LOWER difficulty than "Easy" because they wanted to show the moves and cool stuff without actually having to fight the AI. Those enemies hardly fought back at all. Sometimes NOT at all. I expect the game will be quite different. The idea of being able to go the straight-ahead 'honorable' Samurai route where you give the enemies full warning and kill them anyway, versus the 'dishonorable' ninja way of sneaky backstabbing, using bombs, etc., just seems way too cool. Seems like it will give the game some true replay value since you can go one route or a mix of them the first time thru and then try playing again as fully either one style or the other. I love the music I've heard so far with the game as well. Really gives it a cool ambience. I hope the story and delivery of the story and acting is as it seems in the trailers as well.

For me, The Last of Us was the first video game to really make me FEEL the story and care about it and the characters to the degree a good novel or TV series can. From the very starting sequence which really punched me in the gut, to the very end. I want to see more games with truly good stories and acting to go with the jaw dropping graphics. So we'll see! TLOU2 coming out next month and then Ghost in July! Going to keep me busy this summer. I have to hurry up and finish FF7 remake. I'm still being pulled back into Nioh 2 periodically as well. Really great games have been coming out as this generation hits its sunset!

The first game that made me tear was MGS1 on PS1, that level of story telling was purely out of this world at that time, Kojima was just pushing something pretty serious to gaming that used to be bland and straight forward.

I can name how many games gave me deep feelings, the final one was AC Odyssey which is my favorite so far, although I think GOW is the most perfect, complete game ever made.

The semi-game that really "crushed" my heart was Heavy Rain, and most of those interactive movie-like games are mostly pretty deep like Detroit: Become Human, Life is Strange, and the likes. I generally play plenty of games and genres, except turn-based JRPG's and Horror games. RE2 on PS1 in 1998 occupied the majority of my childhood nightmares:messenger_face_screaming: Especially those skull-less lickers! But beat the game anyway. Silent Hill I stuck at the piano puzzle as it was more of a linguistic puzzle and my English wasn't good enough.

It's pretty hard for me to have a top 10 or even 20 best games ever as I love many games, but as the most impactful series I would say Prince of Persia, Assassin's Creed, Metal Gear Solid. PoP: Warrior Within was one of the most confusing games ever with the past/present mechanics, it fucks up with your brain and nearly gave up.:messenger_grinning_sweat:
 
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bitbydeath

Member
This isn't new.

If you really want to latch onto this pipedream that UE5 is the first engine to adapt features based on a console then ID Tech 3 beat it by about 20 years. John Carmack said when he was writing the engine he adapted parts of it spcefically to run Doom 3 on the Xbox.

Clearly you don’t get it considering OG Xbox was pretty much a PC in a box.
 

FeiRR

Banned
Sorry for slow reply. I don’t have a large understanding of current rendering practices for film but what I have read in the past on renderman was that they didn’t break things into polygons. They kept them as primitives. So a sphere would just be it’s location and then it’s radius. Storing it this way you use little space and can have near infinite precision.

I don’t know if they used primitive shapes for everything because some shapes would be difficult to break down into primitives.
I haven’t done more then skim this link but I believe it talks about it.

Yes, you can keep objects as math formulas and generate them from there. This also applies to textures and sound data. If you're interested in the topic, check this out.
 

Audiophile

Member
The concessions would be adapted and made possible by crafting the engine around what it's strengths are.

Any engine can be adapted to any platform. The strengths of one platform can be made to work on others.

To say that if the engine is utilized fully by the ps5 SSD and that the XSX would have to compensate somewhere is exactly how the engineers don't think. If that was the case then developers wouldn't want to use that engine. Which means less money in their pocket.

In its current form sure, xsx can't do it because the demo is literally coded for ps5. But that's like saying the PS4 version of Assassin's Creed is impossible on Xbox One. It's impossible because that version of the game is coded to the PS4. But the Xbox one version sure as hell looks a lot like the PS4 version doesn't it? That's because the engine has been crafted to and adapted on all platforms and their strengths and weaknesses.

Yes, any engine can be adapted to a platform and it will be here. But...

"The strengths of one platform can be made to work on others" doesn't make any sense. It's not a [relative] strength if it can be done on the other platform.

The XSX's strengths are different to the PS5's strengths. If the PS5 can move ~2x the data from memory to storage, you can't use the XSX's ability to push more pixels to also move 2x the data from memory to storage; they're different things, they're different strengths.

The PS4/X1 AC game eg. doesn't hold weight as that is a matter of different APIs and hardware blocks; that's incompatibility, not incapability. With a base PS4 and X1, the PS4's strength is a stronger GPU, you can't make that the X1's strength. Just as the X1X has a stronger CPU/GPU over the PS4Pro, you can't make that the PS4Pro's strength, because it just isn't. You can make compromises in some areas to achieve parity in others. Also, trading off resolution, performance and graphics in an X1 or PS4 multiplatform game is often functionally inconsequential. SSD speed however provides a predominantly more functional benefit.

Say for eg. you're the flash in a super hero game and you want to traverse from one end of the map to the other at 200mph and with a given asset complexity/density you need 9GB/s to do it that fast. On PS5 this can be done, on XSX you only have 4.8GB/s so your choice is to drop traversal close to 100mph (a functional, gameplay compromise) or drop asset complexity/density to fit the 4.8GB/s budget (a visual, presentational compromise); or a middleground between the two. A compromise has to be made in that scenario.

That ~2x throughput is the strength of the PS5, it's a strength the XSX doesn't have; therefore you can't make that strength work on the latter. You could argue that they could optimise code to be more efficient and find workarounds, but there's nothing distinctive enough about the nature of either to make me think such optimisations wouldn't be applicable to both. Even looking at XSX (Compressed) vs PS5 (RAW); the PS5 is still 15% faster and that's before we get to latency, parallelism and coherency informing intelligent cache scrubbing.

Unless you're trading off a singular resource or set of resources (cpu, gpu) for a given set of capabilities (res, perf, gfx), saying the strength of one platform in one way can be made to be the strength of another platform in another way is like saying a weightlifter and a marathon runner are interchangeable in their respectful fields.

Surely by that logic, if the SSD capabilities of the PS5 can be made to be the strength of the XSX then they can make the extra 18% of GPU compute the XSX has a strength on the PS5..?!

And if an AC game looks similar on X1 and PS4 a big part of that is the only difference is graphical (usually resolution scaling) which isn't a functional, gameplay-impacting component as mentioned above; and that it's a multiplatform game where all the fundamentals are usually developed to a lowest common denominator, by its very nature the strengths of at least one platform aren't being fully exploited. Also, it doesn't take into account he paradigm shifting nature of the high speed SSDs in the new consoles.

Now if UE5 for eg. is being used to develop an exclusive for PS5 and an exclusive for XSX; the PS5 game will be able to do things the XSX can't do in terms of traversal/transitions and asset density/complexity because it has a functional advantage with the SSD being able to move more data, the XSX will have to make a compromise in one, the other or to some degree both. There's nothing I've seen to suggest the XSX can do anything the PS5 can't. The PS5 will just do it with 20% less native pixels in a worst case scenario, something mitigated even further by reconstruction.
 
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Bo_Hazem

Banned
Check this thread out.


The most organized thread I've seen so far, and I've seen so little but it still counts.:messenger_relieved:
 
On another note guys....how about that Ghost of Tsushima reveal today? From the past trailers I honestly expected them to push the game out further and finally announce it was actually a PS5 title, but it's all PS4 and looks AMAZING. Of course, I can see some differences with that UE5 demo from yesterday, but still. This thing looks IMPRESSIVE. As long as it performs in game like we're seeing in these trailers.....just.....WOW. I am so hyped for this game. I was REALLY waiting for TLOU2 but the "leaks" have tempered my excitement a good bit (unfortunately I wasn't able to avoid spoilers, at least the written kind). I'm STILL hoping that the leaks came from an earlier version of the game and story but we'll see.

In any case, I'm still hyped for TLOUS2 and getting more hyped for Ghost of Tsushima by the day! Anyone else?

Me watching the 'State of Play' today!

I have a couple of problems with that demo:

1) I am not fan everything is so shiny is like some take the materials of the scene and multiply the specular parameter, this looks like as an
artistic decision so is okay if you are not agree with me.
2) I want they explain more the combat system also is like the enemies sometime takes turns to attack you is probably just my perfeception

Everything else looks gorgeous I really like the internal competition between differents studios of Sony for the reach the best graphics possible.
 

Bo_Hazem

Banned
This is an opinion of a dev on the ps5 ssd speed :

"The SSDs are obviously the biggest change, although probably less important than some people who think they're black magic are making them out to be. They won't cure cancer, but they potentially make loading a thing of the past . You can instantly transport across the map through a portal in my game with no pop-in or anything, and that's at 60 FPS.

And that's while targeting generic SATA SSDs on PC for compatibility. I don't even wanna' know what you could *need* the PS5's SSD for"

Does he has a dolphin game?
 

HAL-01

Member
i keep thinking about how this engine would handle subpixel detail such as grass, foliage and hair. We saw very little of it, would it also be fully 3d modeled, or would that break down under scrutiny. Only thing ive found out is even epic hasnt been able to get rid of hair shimmering artifacts

uDEl5CP.jpg
 
I haven’t done more then skim this link but I believe it talks about it.
I believe the following suggests the geometry is turned into micropolygons with approximately one micropolygon per pixel, similar to this.
REYES Shading

Recall that every primitive is diced into a grid of micropolygons with a density of approximately one micropolygon per pixel. The small size of the micropolygons drastically simplifies many aspects of shading. For example, there's no need to interpolate texture coordinates or normals.

I've heard higher end offline render can use more than 1 micropolygon per pixel, but as they say the smallest digital element is the pixel, so whatever is subpixel has to eventually converge on just one color per pixel.
 

HAL-01

Member
Now the problem with level of detail is the same as before money and time:


Also I am sure we are going to see some game where the marketing say something like
"Our game use more 60 GB in assets".

where does a dunning-kruger get all their water from???
From a well, actually
 

FeiRR

Banned
Now the problem with level of detail is the same as before money and time:
However, they're pushing the limits much further while cutting corners on asset creation. The future is in procedural generation of assets with artists rather touching up and adjusting the results than doing the mundane work, which will be done mostly by AIs.

But that's just the technical side of it. Now we need people who'll write content for those vast worlds. Otherwise, you'll be doing the same fetch quests again, but now in beautiful surroundings.
 
When Ubisoft/EA have its engine with similar technology as Nanites and now can use its scans made it for all the AC and Battlefield/Star Wars.


In other hand in Bethesda (not the ID Software side) when everyone ask them if its the new games will use something similar:
 
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FranXico

Member
When Ubisoft/EA have its engine with similar technology as Nanites and now can use its scans made it for all the AC and Battlefield/Star Wars.


In other hand in Bethesda (not the ID Software side) when everyone ask them if its the new games will use something similar:

Heh, I thought I had heard that "16 times more detail" somewhere before.
 
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