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Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Console tEch threaD

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Sinthor

Gold Member
Very interesting comment by Matt at era for those who think devs won’t use the extra 2TF on XSX :)

Matt: “
The graphic differences in general won't be imperceptible. They will exist, and most people will be able to see them. They will just be more modest than the difference between the PS4 and One, or the Pro and the X.

If someone wants to buy the console with the strongest GPU and CPU, well that choice is very clear...”

Let's think about this logically for a second....

"They will exist and most people will be able to see them. They will just be more modest than the difference between the PS4 and One or the Pro and the X."

You mean more modest than the differences that basically MADE Digital Foundry as they had to do 300x zooms to show the differences? Yeah....I can see the average consumer noticing that as a 'clear choice' alrighty......NOT!

 

sendit

Member
I didn't say Sony couldn't "go to the metal", I just said Microsoft, as an enterprise, has more experience in file management. Which they absolutely do. Of the two companies, Microsoft is the one more likely to make dramatic improvements on the software side of file management because that is literally the bread-and-butter of the company. I don't feel this is an unreasonable conclusion.
As for Sony's "unprecedented i/o throughput" creating that kind of load, that's simply not the case. The notion that Sony have entered some level of data transfer that we've never seen, or that it requires entirely new solutions that only Sony have created, all just to handle their SSD, just doesn't hold much water. For example, Sony's SSD is only considered bleeding edge within the consumer space. Once you enter the enterprise grade-hardware arena, the transfer load necessary for data-analytic-level I/O processes is quite insane, but that's because we're talking about data-centre volumes of processing. That stuff is Microsoft's wheelhouse - literally their only real competitor is Amazon, and they use mostly Microsoft-certified protocols anyway. The 5.5gb/s of the PS5's SSD is a drop in the bucket in comparison, and Windows Server can handle that I/O load already - and in that space, only Linux can really claim to have a viable alternative. That's how well they know this stuff.
To get a little more specific: the reason your consumer-level PC sees a speed improvement when you plug in an SSD vs a HDD is because Microsoft's protocols allow your OS to take advantage of it. Sony didn't invent miracles - software or hardware - they just made hardware decisions that prioritised this one facet of their console, and they've got some terrific results. It's cool stuff - but it's not "unprecedented" by any stretch of the imagination, and nothing Microsoft's engineers haven't already solved.
Sony have also said it's expandable using other drives when they become available in 2021 - so clearly their speeds are not unique at the consumer-grade, though they may be first to market. Clearly, these drives are intended to work in consumer-PCs, which means Microsoft's protocols can handle them.
As a final point: do I think Microsoft's software approach equals Sony's hardware approach in terms of pure, raw transfer speeds? No, I don't - Cerny's respected for a reason, and I think he absolutely did his homework. But I do think the difference between the two is smaller than on paper, because no one knows bits and bytes quite as well as Microsoft. Happy to be wrong - and I guess we'll see.

Not sure what this has to do with consoles......

However, there is a world outside of Windows. It would be an understatement to say the Internet runs off unix based systems (ex...Linux). To equate this to Playstation. Playstation's OS is unix based.
 
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ZehDon

Member
Not sure what this has to do with consoles......
Sorry, I'll be clearer: the leader in I/O protocols says they made a new I/O protocol and it is much faster. This company's name is Microsoft. Microsoft are including their new I/O protocol in their new console, called the Xbox Series X.

However, there is a world outside of Windows. It would be an understatement to say the Internet runs off Linux (unix based).
I mentioned Linux: "... and in that space, only Linux can really claim to have a viable alternative." The internet != data-centres, this is why Microsoft produce data-centre versions of their Windows OS, unoriginally titled "Windows Server Datacentre".
 

HAL-01

Member
I didn't say Sony couldn't "go to the metal", I just said Microsoft, as an enterprise, has more experience in file management. Which they absolutely do. Of the two companies, Microsoft is the one more likely to make dramatic improvements on the software side of file management because that is literally the bread-and-butter of the company. I don't feel this is an unreasonable conclusion.
As for Sony's "unprecedented i/o throughput" creating that kind of load, that's simply not the case. The notion that Sony have entered some level of data transfer that we've never seen, or that it requires entirely new solutions that only Sony have created, all just to handle their SSD, just doesn't hold much water. For example, Sony's SSD is only considered bleeding edge within the consumer space. Once you enter the enterprise grade-hardware arena, the transfer load necessary for data-analytic-level I/O processes is quite insane, but that's because we're talking about data-centre volumes of processing. That stuff is Microsoft's wheelhouse - literally their only real competitor is Amazon, and they use mostly Microsoft-certified protocols anyway. The 5.5gb/s of the PS5's SSD is a drop in the bucket in comparison, and Windows Server can handle that I/O load already - and in that space, only Linux can really claim to have a viable alternative. That's how well they know this stuff.
To get a little more specific: the reason your consumer-level PC sees a speed improvement when you plug in an SSD vs a HDD is because Microsoft's protocols allow your OS to take advantage of it. Sony didn't invent miracles - software or hardware - they just made hardware decisions that prioritised this one facet of their console, and they've got some terrific results. It's cool stuff - but it's not "unprecedented" by any stretch of the imagination, and nothing Microsoft's engineers haven't already solved.
Sony have also said it's expandable using other drives when they become available in 2021 - so clearly their speeds are not unique at the consumer-grade, though they may be first to market. Clearly, these drives are intended to work in consumer-PCs, which means Microsoft's protocols can handle them.
As a final point: do I think Microsoft's software approach equals Sony's hardware approach in terms of pure, raw transfer speeds? No, I don't - Cerny's respected for a reason, and I think he absolutely did his homework. But I do think the difference between the two is smaller than on paper, because no one knows bits and bytes quite as well as Microsoft. Happy to be wrong - and I guess we'll see.
This argument can be reduced to "Xbox's SSD is not as bad because microsoft has better speeds in an unrelated data centre"
 
Sorry, I'll be clearer: the leader in I/O protocols says they made a new I/O protocol and it is much faster. This company's name is Microsoft. Microsoft are including their new I/O protocol in their new console, called the Xbox Series X.
In the way I saw it:

Microsoft designed its console,API and hardware to be scalable and be able to use in another part of its business like Azure and Windows itself I mean that is what I expected.

In other hand Sony design all only for its console they don't care much if the RDNA 2 doesn't has Cache Scrubber like the PS5 that is why some things they do sounds so extreme
like that SSD bandwidth.

Different visions of the same product that is all.
 

Nickolaidas

Member
Here’s the thing, we have tons of opportunity right now and forevermore to know exactly the capability of each console. The basic facts that make each box unique is known and certainly can be known.

That kind of logic seems to imply that not only the mass of consumers are....well mindless shoppers (maybe true lol?) but that it leads me to believe that perhaps both consoles literally should just be one box and slap “Microsoft/Sony” onto it.

The thinking almost seems to be “So what if the PS5 has an ultra fast SSD with unique paradigm shifting I/O? So what if the Series X has its Velocity Architecture or powerful GPU? Please do not showcase those unless it’s first party games, please!”
I don't think that devs can make a game which can be built around the strenghts of both consoles when neither one has access to the others strengths.

For example, lets say we have two cars. One car has a powerful engine which allows it to go up to a thousand miles per hour. The second car has a less powerful engine, but has excellent tyres.

Now someone builds a race track which is basically a straight line long enough for a car to achieve a thousand miles per hour, assuming the engine is powerful enough, and then covers the entire track with oil.

The powerful car is unable to achieve a thousand miles per hour because the slippery track prevents it from accelerating that much without getting thrown off the road.

The second car's tyres allow it to drive flawlessly, but it lacks an engine powerful enough to go a thousand miles per hour.

Neither car is able to go a thousand miles per hour on that slippery track because the track was made to accomodate both cars' strengths.

And the viewers never get to see a car going a thousand miles per hour.
 

sendit

Member
Sorry, I'll be clearer: the leader in I/O protocols says they made a new I/O protocol and it is much faster. This company's name is Microsoft. Microsoft are including their new I/O protocol in their new console, called the Xbox Series X.


I mentioned Linux: "... and in that space, only Linux can really claim to have a viable alternative." The internet != data-centres, this is why Microsoft produce data-centre versions of their Windows OS, unoriginally titled "Windows Server Datacentre".

Most data centers use Linux. And yes, the internet does in fact equate to data centers. Storage as a service is a data center. Application as a service reside on data centers. Netflix's massive library of streaming movies are hosted on data centers. Microsoft's elusive power of the cloud is hosted on data centers.
 
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ZehDon

Member
So youre coming here to defend the xbox telling us specs don't matter??
Oh, how the tables have turned
Firstly, please laugh a little, I really wasn't being terribly serious. This is the speculation and leaks thread - anyone who claims to know the objective truth here is full of shit - and that includes me :)
Secondly, I actually said above I think PS5's hardware approach to I/O is going to come out ahead - software can only do so much if the hardware isn't there. However, I do think the gap in I/O performance is smaller than it appears on paper.

As for the rest of the machine, I think Microsoft have knocked it out of the park, and I think it's going to show - but it all comes down to price. If the Series X is $599 and the PS5 is $399, I'd say Sony built the superior machine. We're all "wait and see" for that aspect.
 
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Vaztu

Member
Firstly, please laugh a little, I really wasn't being terribly serious. This is the speculation and leaks thread - anyone who claims to know the objective truth here is full of shit - and that includes me :)
Secondly, I actually said above I think PS5's hardware approach to I/O is going to come out ahead - software can only do so much if the hardware isn't there. However, I do think the gap in I/O performance is smaller than it appears on paper.

As for the rest of the machine, I think Microsoft have knocked it out of the park, and I think it's going to show - but it all comes down to price. If the Series X is $599 and the PS5 is $399, I'd say Sony built the superior machine. We're all "wait and see" for that aspect.
I don't agree in that, I am agree with you that Microsoft follows a expected behaviour as company but that doesn't mean the gap is closer, as we know PS5 work more in its soluion than XSX
and you don't hear any dev from a third party saying they are closer in that aspect.

Doncabesa Doncabesa something you of any of your loved discord group want to share ?
 
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Sinthor

Gold Member
So youre coming here to defend the xbox telling us specs don't matter??
Oh, how the tables have turned

You gotta love how some people (not pointing fingers) love to call out Microsoft's supposed strengths and brilliance due to their admittedly long experience in the OS and cloud marketplaces, but yet a company like Sony that has decades of experience designing hardware, both consumer and professionally oriented, can't possibly have strengths that would apply to their products. Even in an industry where they have led by a mile and continued to lead despite the entry of other companies, including Microsoft.

Also, as for the cloud and that data center storage that MS can leverage...did people miss that announcement that Sony signed a big deal for Azure? Think it might be related to things like PS Now or other data storage and streaming applications? Yes, it's MS making money off of a competitor and also a competitor giving money to MS...but as people like to point out, MS is a big company. MS is also focusing on making Xbox a platform, like Windows, rather than specializing on a specific piece of hardware. Sure, the series X is important to them, but less so than the platform as a whole. They saw the initial inroads they had made with the 360 evaporate over this last generation. So, instead of trying to tempt development from software companies with their 40 million or so installed base, by making the Xbox FAMILY into a platform and having all or most of the games run on any of their hardware iterations, they can utilize THOSE install bases as well. Suddenly, MS DOES have an installed base of 100 million that developers can market to.

THAT is where they are aiming for. It may disappoint some fans when they realize how the product family means more to MS than their latest piece of kit does. We'll see how it works out. I think MS was worried that Google might take that ground and didn't foresee that they apparently.....wouldn't. Plus, it aligns the Xbox with the rest of Microsofts products and philosophy. So it makes sense for them.
 
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I am sorry (well, actually I am not, you know...) but this is beyond distasteful on Microsoft's part. Using such individuals for marketing purposes is just weak and pathetic. And we're all wondering why these individuals are foaming at the mouth when Sony is praised for innovation, while officially Microsoft is congratulating Sony for the same achievements?!

Any sign left of credibility and goodwill from me to this corporation who uses such lame mouthpieces is gone, like out-of-this-galaxy gone. And they're wondering why they fail, generation after generation of consoles? Is this the message they're sending? Aaron Greenberg stroking the ego of Timdog & Co? Have you no pride, no professional attitude, Greenberg?

Well, Microsoft, you couldn't stoop any lower than that, groveling at the feet of your rabid fanboys. You deserve what comes to you.
Oh Greenberg doesn't have any professional attitude. He only has a bald head and a massive ego and tends to overhype stuff "to the edge of the universe and back", even though that doesn't help push Xbox much further than it already has.
 

Gediminas

Banned
That’s because MS are banking on software to speed things up as opposed to Sony who tackled a lot of the various bottlenecks through hardware. Mark addressed that very topic in the road to PS5.
that's how you do it. Sony will always could increase it's software capabilities while m$ will hit the sealing with hardware and software. how somebody said it, with years the gap will get just bigger.
 

HAL-01

Member
Firstly, please laugh a little, I really wasn't being terribly serious. This is the speculation and leaks thread - anyone who claims to know the objective truth here is full of shit - and that includes me :)
Secondly, I actually said above I think PS5's hardware approach to I/O is going to come out ahead - software can only do so much if the hardware isn't there. However, I do think the gap in I/O performance is smaller than it appears on paper.

As for the rest of the machine, I think Microsoft have knocked it out of the park, and I think it's going to show - but it all comes down to price. If the Series X is $599 and the PS5 is $399, I'd say Sony built the superior machine. We're all "wait and see" for that aspect.
I just don't like the way you've dissmissed Sony's work here by comparing it to speeds in data centers. Of course theres going to be computers in the hundreds of thousands of dollars that handily outperform it. Sony also has a decades long history in hardware design, and has made a number of professional grade products that handily outperform some of the xbox's components, doesn't mean thats any relevant.

Truth is, and we've heard it once and again and again, sony's IO tech is beyond anything thats available right now in the consumer market, beyond just raw SSD read speeds. Computers will need to catch up to it, as they have before in past gens, and no amount of downplaying will make it any less true.
 
In the coming consoles, you have to code the games to use the new file system and pack the assets according to what the decompression blocks expect, otherwise the decompression is done by the CPU anyway. This probably is why SoD2 took just over 6 seconds to load, instead of a fraction of a second.

I'm guessing BC PS4 games are also not going to load and run as potentially fast as they would if they were "coded" to take advantage of the new IO subsytem. But they will still load noticeably faster than on the PS4, due to the massive CPU upgrade (decompression runs much, much faster).
I think Microsoft specified at some point during those demonstrations that the games were just running on the console without any significant code changes or optimisations. So you're essentially just running the game basically "barebones", which is perhaps the reason why it took 6-8 seconds to load.
 
Original nerdiness? :messenger_grinning_smiling:

7Ihq6iy.png
Now that is a party!!! 🔥🔥🔥
 

ZehDon

Member
Most data centers use Linux. And yes, the internet does in fact equate to data centers. Storage as a service is a data center. Application as a service reside on data centers. Netflix's massive library of streaming movies are hosted on data centers. Microsoft's elusive power of the cloud is hosted on data centers.
Cool, not sure that detracts from what I said though.
I also think we're conflating terms here, friend. The internet that we "visit" has been mostly hosted on private servers - or server farms. There's definitely a trend to moving over to cloud hosting - Azure and AWS being the big players, though Google are no slouch. Netflix, to continue your example, use AWS, specifically their EC2 instances, but that's different to, say, the ABC's website (no idea where that's actually hosted, just an example). Those EC2 instances are just registered resources - they can host anything from Windows XP to the latest Redhat distro. The internet != datacentres, datacentres are apart of the internet. I wasn't very clear, so apologies there.
that's how you do it. Sony will always could increase it's software capabilities while m$ will hit the sealing with hardware and software. how somebody said it, with years the gap will get just bigger.
Excellent point - Microsoft definitely don't have an infinite ceiling.
I just don't like the way you've dissmissed Sony's work here by comparing it to speeds in data centers. Of course theres going to be computers in the hundreds of thousands of dollars that handily outperform it. Sony also has a decades long history in hardware design, and has made a number of professional grade products that handily outperform some of the xbox's components, doesn't mean thats any relevant.

Truth is, and we've heard it once and again and again, sony's IO tech is beyond anything thats available right now in the consumer market, beyond just raw SSD read speeds. Computers will need to catch up to it, as they have before in past gens, and no amount of downplaying will make it any less true.
Sorry, I wasn't intending to be dismissive. Let me re-word my point to be less dismissive: let's say Sony have made a x10 speed improvement with their hardware-first approach (it's actually more, but 10 is a round number). Microsoft have made a x5 speed improvement with their off-the-shelf hardware, but an additional x1.5 thanks to their software. Sony still have a x10, but Microsoft have x6.5 instead of a x5. That's my point.
The folks at Sony aren't idiots - their media formats have become standards for a reason (remember: Xbox One and Series X all ship with a blu-ray drive).
 
Just did some reading up on AMD's Asynchronous Compute (and realised I understood it incorrectly before) and what do you know, it was started as a collaboration between Sony and AMD in 2009 ready for PS4 and GCN, and in an interview prior to PS4's release, Mark Cerny was saying we should really start to see it be put to good use in 2015-2017. Sony and AMD seem to have been working together on GPU technology for a while now, and Cerny keeps showing up everywhere I look lately. I was reading about Sonic Team the other week and there he is again, buying a Ferrari for someone that quit Sega in Japan after feeling undervalued for creating Sonic, as a means of convincing him to fly to the US and create Sonic 2 with Cerny, which if it failed would have lead to Sonic CD being the sequel. This guy has been around, and regardless of which colour you prefer, he's to be respected for what he's achieved and helped bring about.
The man literally invented the "Cerny Method" dude. You'll find buckeloads of information about it online. He's a prominent and influential figure when it comes to hardware and computer architecture. And he's doing some pretty impressive and tremendous work which is why i have massive respect for him. He really is something really special, especially for Sony. He's also been a game development and graphics tech dev for a really long time which is why both prominent game devs and hardware engineers have massive respect for him. He has his own studio called Cerny Games as well. Oh and one of the forefathers of the Sony ICE team as he helped with its formation.
 
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Firstly, please laugh a little, I really wasn't being terribly serious. This is the speculation and leaks thread - anyone who claims to know the objective truth here is full of shit - and that includes me :)
Secondly, I actually said above I think PS5's hardware approach to I/O is going to come out ahead - software can only do so much if the hardware isn't there. However, I do think the gap in I/O performance is smaller than it appears on paper.

As for the rest of the machine, I think Microsoft have knocked it out of the park, and I think it's going to show - but it all comes down to price. If the Series X is $599 and the PS5 is $399, I'd say Sony built the superior machine. We're all "wait and see" for that aspect.

You know if MS really has made such huge software based improvements on I/O would actually benefit PC's way more then consoles. Which is fine for me. MS boosting my Gaming PC with that and sony having dedicated hardware on PS5 for the same. Eventually both systems might be transferred to gaming pc's in the future.
Interesting times ahead.
 

sendit

Member
Cool, not sure that detracts from what I said though.
I also think we're conflating terms here, friend. The internet that we "visit" has been mostly hosted on private servers - or server farms. There's definitely a trend to moving over to cloud hosting - Azure and AWS being the big players, though Google are no slouch. Netflix, to continue your example, use AWS, specifically their EC2 instances, but that's different to, say, the ABC's website (no idea where that's actually hosted, just an example). Those EC2 instances are just registered resources - they can host anything from Windows XP to the latest Redhat distro. The internet != datacentres, datacentres are apart of the internet. I wasn't very clear, so apologies there.

Excellent point - Microsoft definitely don't have an infinite ceiling.

Sorry, I wasn't intending to be dismissive. Let me re-word my point to be less dismissive: let's say Sony have made a x10 speed improvement with their hardware-first approach (it's actually more, but 10 is a round number). Microsoft have made a x5 speed improvement with their off-the-shelf hardware, but an additional x1.5 thanks to their software. Sony still have a x10, but Microsoft have x6.5 instead of a x5. That's my point.
The folks at Sony aren't idiots - their media formats have become standards for a reason (remember: Xbox One and Series X all ship with a blu-ray drive).

SDE at one of the big players you mentioned :). EC2 Instances is virtual compute backed by you guessed it, a data center. And no....most of the internet that people visit today (facebook, youtube, instagram, netflix, twitter, etc....) are infact backed by the major providers you listed.
 
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If Sony are needing to offload their I/O work to a separate piece of hardware in order to save CPU resources - which I believe Cerny covered in his talk - this would suggest any work they've done in addressing I/O at a purely software level isn't as dramatic as the improvements Microsoft have made with their DirectStorage I/O protocol. In manufacturing terms, you don't build bespoke hardware to handle I/O if the performance hit is negligible in the first place. Sony needed to offload that load, and it appears Microsoft didn't.
To put an even finer point on it: Microsoft are one of the global leaders in this field, with world renowned software engineers that create the standards and protocols other companies then use. From my perspective, it seems pretty feasible to me that Microsoft, with decades of experience in the deepest scientific recesses of file management, have improved upon their 30 year old I/O protocols in the latest release of their multi-platform API quite dramatically. Don't take that as a slight - Sony appear to have built a very impressive piece of hardware - it's very fast storage, engineered from a purely nuts-and-bolts level to be as fast as it possibly can be. On the flipside, Microsoft appear to have written very impressive new I/O protocols - it allows slower storage devices to do things faster by the virtue of efficiency, drawn from real-world data performance. Both are interesting solutions, and I'm not ready to call one superior to the other.

Again with the myth that Sony have only taken a hardware approach to their IO stack. It’s nonsense. Read the Cerny Eurogamer interview. Their storage access API is completely new and nothing like traditional file IO. It’s ID based and directly mapped to whatever memory the developer requests, all exposed through the new API. This is as fundamental as it gets. No file tables, or file paths.
 
This response seems oddly dismissive:
uDhvIv5.png


I wonder why that...
14dqSjQ.png


Oh.

This guy didn’t have a clue what the original context of the meme was and was just comparing SSD to SSD. PS5’s IO performance is about the entire pipeline and accompanying software stack. Not just flash chips and controller, which are in some ways the simplest part. But gamers and journalists have dubbed PS5’s IO pipeline as just “PS5’s SSD”, which is why nozzles like this and Linus think PC is already better just by comparing sequential read speeds.
 

Shmunter

Member
I think what's happening is due to how inefficient the software is it's causing bottlenecks in Microsoft's I/O solution. So while the improvements to the software can't be used to close the physical hardware gap, it will allow the I/O system to hit those advertised values more often.
Microsofts inefficiency shouldn't equate a different o/s 's inefficiency tho. It's curious MS having some software breakthrough where Linux, FreebSD, macOS, etc never tackled it. Why are they all so inefficient? This software solution certainly will be scrutinized when it comes to PC - if it ever materializes. Sometimes things that sound too good to be true end up being just that. I'm officially wearing my skeptic hat on for this one, the more I think it through,.
 
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Sinthor

Gold Member
You know if MS really has made such huge software based improvements on I/O would actually benefit PC's way more then consoles. Which is fine for me. MS boosting my Gaming PC with that and sony having dedicated hardware on PS5 for the same. Eventually both systems might be transferred to gaming pc's in the future.
Interesting times ahead.

That's a good point. I would definitely expect MS to transfer some of these ideas into their Windows product line and vice versa. Who knows...their solution and implementation here may have COME from their OS division. Or if not, I'd certainly expect it to be shared going forward. Anything they can do to make their Windows OS based offerings even more competitive against Linux, Mac OS X, etc., would be something they would look to leverage.

I must confess though. I don't see magic about the cloud. To me, I'm hearing the same song and dance I have in the past. 'The desktop computer is done, it's all going to be terminal server now' or 'it's all going back to big iron now, dumb terminals will replace desktop computers.' All the while, what we've seen in the real world is more powerful and capable distributed computing devices while the backend..cloud or virtual data centers or whatever has continued to evolve as well.

Today...I don't see the cloud giving magical speed advantages or anything, it's more on the financial side. You don't have to pay for hardware and infrastructure that you have to maintain. Don't have to have two data centers for redundancy. It's hosted by someone else...you pay less in support and maintenance and the redundancy is the responsibility of Microsoft or Amazon...assuming you're paying for redundancy. Sure you can get some advantages by say having things crunched by a bunch of resource heavy cloud boxes and then fed back down to your desktop or other device via the internet, but the speed advantages are held back by bandwidth capabilities. Until we're all running fiber or faster, I don't see that being huge either. And bandwidth is the main limiting factor in all of this streaming service and streaming games as well.

This is part of why I don't see a diskless "lockhart" type of streaming game system as being viable. If you're marketing to the people who need to be able to spend only say $200 on a gaming system, the chances are, those folk don't have high speed internet or even if they do, it's not the kind of high speed that makes streaming HD videos and games very fast. So latency and that bandwidth limitation primarily impacts your main target audience in a way that's detrimental to what you're trying to do, with your streaming game box. I don't see this as a real viable option till the majority of the world has truly high speed internet. Heck in the US alone I've read that over half of the country doesn't have high speed access. Maybe 5G will help and accelerate this? I don't know.

So I think there will continue to be a place for high performance hardware on the desktop or in the home, rather than 'in the cloud' for the short and mid term future at least.
 
Microsofts inefficiency shouldn't equate a different o/s inefficiency tho. It's curious MS having some software breakthrough where Linux, FreebSD, macOS never tackled it. Why are they all so inefficient? This software solution certainly will be scrutinized when it comes to PC - if it ever materializes. Sometimes things that sound too good to be true end up being just that.

It just seems weird that Microsoft is having problems with their I/O shortly before launch.
 
This guy didn’t have a clue what the original context of the meme was and was just comparing SSD to SSD. PS5’s IO performance is about the entire pipeline and accompanying software stack. Not just flash chips and controller, which are in some ways the simplest part. But gamers and journalists have dubbed PS5’s IO pipeline as just “PS5’s SSD”, which is why nozzles like this and Linus think PC is already better just by comparing sequential read speeds.
If Microsoft really is that good at making a powerful and efficient file system, then i don't get why NTFS, which is a file system made by Microsoft isn't even that great to begin. If their algorithm and software engineers are this good, why isn't the file system developed by them and used by Windows getting any better? It really baffles me. NTFS has already been surpassed by filesystems such as F2FS on mobile and Apple's own proprietary APFS file system that has been in use on IOS devices and MacOS since 2016. Apple even designed the file system in such a way that apps and files that are 32 bit are automatically converted to a 64 bit instruction set without any performance deficit or penalty, they even baked a piece of functionality in APFS that almost losslessly compresses files and apps, reducing their overall size without impacting the usability and functionality of the app in question. If Microsoft engineers are really that special why isn't their own custom built file system improving?
 
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Microsoft would need a breakthrough in IO performance to even be on par with the Linux kernel. This is a common complaint, Google it.

And the point of a fixed function accelerator for IO isn’t just CPU offloading (which is being presumed as the reason why Sony must have a poor file IO implementation, despite being Linux kernel based) but for massive gains in latency. Fixed function silicon runs rings around generic programmable silicon for latency. It’s why your cheap little ethernet switch uses expensive ASICs instead of some cheap off the shelf generic programmable chip for routing packets.

Latency seems to be critical to what Sony want to enable with their IO solution.

And thinking of the work Sony has done on IO as only being about the sequential read speed from the flash controller is missing the point. To make a comparison to the PC space based on just this is nonsense.

The guy that made that video comparing the two system’s IO seems to hint at a day job in data and storage.
 
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FeiRR

Banned
Original nerdiness? :messenger_grinning_smiling:

7Ihq6iy.png

Not a single bottle of alcohol? Probably shopped ;)

Straight out of infowars. Greenberg "sponsoring" the guy doesn't shock me though, sleezy as fuck community management. Never gonna get your brand to be seen as classy premium that way. Never.

I think that's the point though. Xbox is for the cool dude from the 'hood. At least that's what their marketing suggests.
 

Shmunter

Member
It just seems weird that Microsoft is having problems with their I/O shortly before launch.
It's not a problem. It's always been done like this, pc, consoles, servers, etc. It's just now Sony comes out with hardware changing the status quo and MS in tandem somehow solves the issues with a software tweak out of the blue.

With further thought, my prediction is that XsX CPU will be somewhat busy doing the i/o in heavy streaming scenarios. It will be helped by the hardware decompression compared to PC, but it will still be hampered compared to PS5. The next gen CPU's are monsters, and unless really flexed, there may be no perceptible difference to most games.
 

ToadMan

Member
Asking as somebody who can't do programming, does it make sense from a hardware/software standpoint to have different file systems to manage limited portions of the SSD? What negative side effects would just going with the faster solution all over the board bring?

Also, could this in any way be related to the fact that XSX has RAM chips at two different speeds?

Both PS5 and Xsex use 2 types of file system as far as I can tell.

A normal SSD comes with a “FFS” - a FlashROM file system. This is similar to what we have with HDDs. It’s a table listing the content of the drive, so when the main system requests a particular piece of data, the SSD controller looks up where the data is in flash memory, does a read and sends it back to the main system for processing.

The benefit of this is the SSD knows where the data is and can organise it based on a few different factors - SSD memory wear is a problem for example - using an FFs let’s the SSD optimally distribute data to equalise wear across the full capacity.

The game code doesn’t need to know where the data is making data management easier. The downside is a reduction in access performance.

The second method is new for this console generation and bypasses the FFS. In this scenario the app/game simply requests data from the SSD at location X - a memory address effectively. The SSD controller gets the data from that location and returns it skipping the FFS lookup. This is faster than using the FFS, but now the game has to know the layout of the SSD memory or at least have retrieved a handle to the relevant address location beforehand.

Sony say that this second direct addressing function works for the entire 825gb of their SSD. Or at least they haven’t stated any limit on that as yet.

Xsex offers the same mechanism but it’s limited to 100gb of direct addressable data. It seems that 100gb is allocated when a particular app/game is executed and presumably includes the game data itself.

I don’t think the Xsex solution is directly caused or influenced by the varying speed of the VRAM.

But this is all speculation based on about 3 pages worth of tech details for each system. There are almost certainly hidden limits that we don’t yet.
 
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Codeblew

Member
If Sony are needing to offload their I/O work to a separate piece of hardware in order to save CPU resources - which I believe Cerny covered in his talk - this would suggest any work they've done in addressing I/O at a purely software level isn't as dramatic as the improvements Microsoft have made with their DirectStorage I/O protocol. In manufacturing terms, you don't build bespoke hardware to handle I/O if the performance hit is negligible in the first place. Sony needed to offload that load, and it appears Microsoft didn't.
To put an even finer point on it: Microsoft are one of the global leaders in this field, with world renowned software engineers that create the standards and protocols other companies then use. From my perspective, it seems pretty feasible to me that Microsoft, with decades of experience in the deepest scientific recesses of file management, have improved upon their 30 year old I/O protocols in the latest release of their multi-platform API quite dramatically. Don't take that as a slight - Sony appear to have built a very impressive piece of hardware - it's very fast storage, engineered from a purely nuts-and-bolts level to be as fast as it possibly can be. On the flipside, Microsoft appear to have written very impressive new I/O protocols - it allows slower storage devices to do things faster by the virtue of efficiency, drawn from real-world data performance. Both are interesting solutions, and I'm not ready to call one superior to the other.

This is an example of someone non-technical trying to act like they are.
 

Shmunter

Member
Microsoft would need a breakthrough in IO performance to even be on par with the Linux kernel. This is a common complaint, Google it.

And the point of a fixed function accelerator for IO isn’t just CPU offloading (which is being presumed as the reason why Sony must have a poor file IO implementation, despite being Linux kernel based) but for massive gains in latency. Fixed function silicon runs rings around generic programmable silicon for latency. It’s why your cheap little ethernet switch uses expensive ASICs instead of some cheap off the shelf generic programmable chip for routing packets.

Latency seems to be critical to what Sony want to enable with their IO solution.

And thinking of the work Sony has done on IO as only being about the sequential read speed from the flash controller is missing the point. To make a comparison to the PC space based on just this is nonsense.

The guy that made that video comparing the two system’s IO seems to hint at a day job in data and storage.
Interesting
 

3liteDragon

Member
Again with the myth that Sony have only taken a hardware approach to their IO stack. It’s nonsense. Read the Cerny Eurogamer interview. Their storage access API is completely new and nothing like traditional file IO. It’s ID based and directly mapped to whatever memory the developer requests, all exposed through the new API. This is as fundamental as it gets. No file tables, or file paths.
Exactly and if people ACTUALLY paid attention during the presentation, FFS there's a god damn co-processor purely dedicated to their new ID-based storage access API. I remember Moore's Law is Dead saying a while ago that MS was originally planning to go with a 1.2-1.8GB/s drive without a custom decompressor for the Series X UNTIL they found out about what Sony was doing with their SSD tech. If him and his sources are anything to go by and that's true, just let that sink in for a moment before going to ramble on about how Microsoft's "SOFTWARE EXPERIENCE" is gonna help them close the gap with Sony's SSD tech.



33E5uWr.jpg
 
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ZehDon

Member
This is an example of someone non-technical trying to act like they are.
Acting technical... by taking every word Sony and Microsoft have both said at face value and admitting I don't have "the answer" because, frankly, their specific solutions involve levels of technical specificity that are above my simple IDE realm. I even wrote that in several posts. Perhaps I need acting lessons? Please, feel free to contribute some insight.
 
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Exactly and if people ACTUALLY paid attention during the presentation, FFS there's a god damn co-processor purely dedicated to their new ID-based storage access API. I remember Moore's Law is Dead saying a while ago that MS was originally planning to go with a 1.8GB/s drive without a custom decompressor for the Series X UNTIL they found out about what Sony was doing with their SSD tech. If him and his sources are anything to go by and that's true, just let that sink in for a moment before going to ramble on about how Microsoft's "SOFTWARE EXPERIENCE" is gonna help them close the gap with Sony's SSD tech.
The need XSX be the better in everything if not their head will explode or something, just another thread which exists here they actually
believe the XSX can access to 100 GB/s instantly like the bandwidth doesn't matter because Microsoft use the power of money to break the
rules of the physics.

Also the person who open that thread is part of the famous discord but is just coincidence both persons are fans
of xbox because accordly to him he is not the same person yeah sure.

For example look Doncabesa Doncabesa I am sure he also was victim of Identity theft from that discord group.
 
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ToadMan

Member
This is pure speculation and a bad rumor at that. Isn't MS partnered with Seagate for their SSD?

All of the press releases have only referred to Seagate partnering for the proprietary expansion card. No mention has been made of which company (if any) assisted with the inbuilt SSD architecture.
 
If Sony are needing to offload their I/O work to a separate piece of hardware in order to save CPU resources - which I believe Cerny covered in his talk - this would suggest any work they've done in addressing I/O at a purely software level isn't as dramatic as the improvements Microsoft have made with their DirectStorage I/O protocol. In manufacturing terms, you don't build bespoke hardware to handle I/O if the performance hit is negligible in the first place. Sony needed to offload that load, and it appears Microsoft didn't.
To put an even finer point on it: Microsoft are one of the global leaders in this field, with world renowned software engineers that create the standards and protocols other companies then use. From my perspective, it seems pretty feasible to me that Microsoft, with decades of experience in the deepest scientific recesses of file management, have improved upon their 30 year old I/O protocols in the latest release of their multi-platform API quite dramatically. Don't take that as a slight - Sony appear to have built a very impressive piece of hardware - it's very fast storage, engineered from a purely nuts-and-bolts level to be as fast as it possibly can be. On the flipside, Microsoft appear to have written very impressive new I/O protocols - it allows slower storage devices to do things faster by the virtue of efficiency, drawn from real-world data performance. Both are interesting solutions, and I'm not ready to call one superior to the other.
A piece of software optimizing CPU overnight by a magnitude multiply is too good to be true. A software can give 5, 10, 20% performance gain but not 1000%.
 
Acting technical... by taking every word Sony and Microsoft have both said at face value and admitting I don't have "the answer" because, frankly, their specific solutions involve levels of technical specificity that are above my simple IDE realm. I even wrote that in several posts. Perhaps I need acting lessons? Please, feel free to contribute some insight.
Give a reason which support your conclusion of the memory bandwidth is closer that specs say not the:

"If Microsoft has good engineers so for this reason their software is so superior han doesn't matter the hardware in the same degree as Sony"

Because in that argument born from your conclusion that 'Sony cannot be so far away in some aspect of Microsoft' and that is a fallacy like a castle.
 

ZehDon

Member
A piece of software optimizing CPU overnight by a magnitude multiply is too good to be true. A software can give 5, 10, 20% performance gain but not 1000%.
I don't disagree. I commented on it above, but specifically, Microsoft's touted "Velocity Architecture" can mitigate Sony's advantage, but at the end of the day, Sony's hardware is 100% faster than Microsoft's. Software can only do so much.

Give a reason which support your conclusion of the memory bandwidth is closer that specs say not the:

"If Microsoft has good engineers so for this reason their software is so superior han doesn't matter the hardware in the same degree as Sony"

Because in that argument born from your conclusion that 'Sony cannot be so far away in some aspect of Microsoft' and that is a fallacy like a castle.
I feel that I have in my walls of text above. In short: Microsoft have proven that they know their stuff, so if they say they've made improvements in this area, I tend to believe them. Why wouldn't I?
 
been awhile and reading along, so after seeing epic new engine demo, do you guys think a fulll game such as uncharted or far cry could be as detailed?
i know is different engines but im asking in general,

sorry fellas im just basic gamer without any hardcore pc knowledge
 
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