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Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Console tEch threaD

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Sinthor

Sinthor

Gold Member
ToadMan said:
The NVME 4 spec is capable of supporting up to 7Gb/s transfer rates so there's no limit being hit using 4 lanes for either Sony or MS.

For the NAND storage, Sony and MS will be buying commercially available quality from whichever memory partners they're working with. Speed improvements will come from how they've specced the NAND/SSD they're using coupled with what they can do with cusom controllers and firmware. I'm assuming both compaines are using a commercially available SSD as the basis for their solution. MS just chose one and put it in their system with little customisation, Sony chose one and have taken it apart to install their own channel architecture and controller to boost the access times.

What happens "inside" the SSD - that's between the controller and the NANDs - is where the speed gain is made. 12 vs 8 channels is one way to boost access times.

Then there's the type of NAND being used - SLC, MLC, TLC. SLC is fastest offering read speeds less than half that of TLC and it's more resistant to high thermal outputs. SLC is also more expensive and perhaps beyond Sony's budget. MLC is about 1/3rd faster than TLC and not so expensive. Maybe Sony went that way and MS used TLC NAND - this plus 12 channels would account for the latency difference.

It could be Sony are just brute forcing it -they went with TLC, 12 channels and then bumped the clock rates on the SSD and installed heavy cooling so it can run at those speeds. This would map on to the issues around CPU/GPU power consumption, variable clock speeds and allocating power dynamically. I don't think Sony has done that but until we see the PS5 we won't know for sure.
Click to expand...

Aha! I see it now. Thank you very much for the explanation! I'm back on the "I get this!" train! :)
 
ethomaz

ethomaz

Banned
ToadMan said:
The NVME 4 spec is capable of supporting up to 7Gb/s transfer rates so there's no limit being hit using 4 lanes for either Sony or MS.

For the NAND storage, Sony and MS will be buying commercially available quality from whichever memory partners they're working with. Speed improvements will come from how they've specced the NAND/SSD they're using coupled with what they can do with cusom controllers and firmware. I'm assuming both compaines are using a commercially available SSD as the basis for their solution. MS just chose one and put it in their system with little customisation, Sony chose one and have taken it apart to install their own channel architecture and controller to boost the access times.

What happens "inside" the SSD - that's between the controller and the NANDs - is where the speed gain is made. 12 vs 8 channels is one way to boost access times.

Then there's the type of NAND being used - SLC, MLC, TLC. SLC is fastest offering read speeds less than half that of TLC and it's more resistant to high thermal outputs. SLC is also more expensive and perhaps beyond Sony's budget. MLC is about 1/3rd faster than TLC and not so expensive. Maybe Sony went that way and MS used TLC NAND - this plus 12 channels would account for the latency difference.

It could be Sony are just brute forcing it -they went with TLC, 12 channels and then bumped the clock rates on the SSD and installed heavy cooling so it can run at those speeds. This would map on to the issues around CPU/GPU power consumption, variable clock speeds and allocating power dynamically. I don't think Sony has done that but until we see the PS5 we won't know for sure.
Click to expand...
I read about Cerny choosing 12 lanes due they wanted to use slower and cheaper NAND module.
To reach the same 5.5GB/s with 4 lanes requires faster and expensive NAND modules.
Maybe they got a good contract for these cheaper/slower modules that can't be used in 4 lanes SSDs.
 
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ethomaz

ethomaz

Banned
Last post.

From previous evidences and the NVMe 1.4 specs I think Sony did that.

+ PS5 uses NVMe 1.4.
+ Sony created a customized Priority system over NVMe 1.4.
+ PS5 host-controller holds the definition of that customized NVMe 1.4 priority system (it can be updated via PS5 firmware).
+ Each driver that is put on PS5 will be checked and if need firmware updated by the host controller to support that customized Priority system.
+ The update of that customized priority system can be done without reset.

So any SSD to be released late this year that match the speeds PS5 requires will works with these 6 custom priority levels.
Sony can update the NVMe firmware of both host and SSD late if they find more optimizations.

Now the SSDs system makes sense imo.
That is why any SSD that reaches the required speed can be used on PS5... you don't need the custom 12 lanes PS5 SSD (it was probably done that way due cost... the cheap option to reach 5.5GB/s).
 
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BadBreathOfTheWild

BadBreathOfTheWild

Banned
pawel86ck said:
The problem is SSD RAW speed on PC is only theoretical (exactly as Tim Sweeney has said). Real I/O transfer in XSX is maybe not as impressive as PS5, but it's still light years ahead compared to PC's SSD.
Click to expand...

You’re confusing an SSDs sequential read speed with the entire IO pipeline as relates to a game-like task. Xbox’s SSD is pretty low tier as far as PC NVMe drives go already. I was only talking about the SSD, not everything else.

How it uses that 2.4GB/s once it has left the flash controller, and how well it used the ~4.8GB/s once it has left the decompressor is unknown at the moment. From what Microsoft has revealed with the Velocity Architecture it doesn’t seem to be as focussed or as finely tuned with what Sony has done. Whether the rest of the pipeline beats PC’s copying to VRAM over PCIe is up for debate. It seems like XSX needs another copy operation after it hits RAM as part of what Cerny called check-in. If XSX had a DMA controller that does that, it’s strange they didn’t mention it as part of XVA.

XSX entire IO pipeline might well work better in practice than a PC’s that starts with a faster NVMe drive, though. I’m not arguing against that at all. Just the high-end SSD description when applied to NVMe drives, although not if you still consider SATA stuff.
 
BadBreathOfTheWild

BadBreathOfTheWild

Banned
ethomaz said:
BadBreathOfTheWild BadBreathOfTheWild

After a bit more reading...

There are indeed a NVMe controller inside the SSD hardware too... it is flexible and can be updated with firmware (for example to update the NVMe protocol form version 1.2 to 1.4).

cadence-nvme-subsystem.gif



The motherboard needs to run the NVMe software.
You are right about the NVMe controller inside the SSD hardware... there is two controllers the SDD one and the host-controller.

And the NVMe controller can have it software updated via firmware.

Example of an host-NVMe board (look at the NVMe controller on the board/host):

NVMe-AltBlock.jpg


BTW the priority levels are software based that can be updated via firmware on SSD and driver on host.
Click to expand...

An NVMe controller isn’t a generic programmable chip that can wholesale be changed. There is potential to upgrade its firmware, but if you want it to run some entirely different protocol or handle more work than originally designed you’re likely to run into problems.

It seems you’ve convinced yourself that this is how it all works by finding what you wanted to find and having it fit what you’ve already decided is true, but this directly contradicts what Cerny himself has said, so don’t go posting this as some kind of confirmed fact.

Cerny emphasized the word “true” when saying NVMe only has two true levels of priority. That could mean fundamentally at the hardware level, even if there is software on top that arbitrates requests.

Until you know what was meant by that, you’re just speculating while contradicting when he said the main chip will arbitrate the extra levels of priority when using a PC NVMe drive.

Secondly, the idea that PS5 would update the firmware on an NVMe drive you bought sounds a bit daft and assumes the user doesn’t want to remove it and use it elsewhere at a later date.

If adding queues in software is all it takes, why would Cerny say the main custom chip has to arbitrate the extra queues and the NVMe expansion drive needs a little more speed to do that?

You’re posting speculation, not fact.
 
THE:MILKMAN

THE:MILKMAN

Member
ethomaz said:
I read about Cerny choosing 12 lanes due they wanted to use slower and cheaper NAND module.
To reach the same 5.5GB/s with 4 lanes requires faster and expensive NAND modules.
Maybe they got a good contract for these cheaper/slower modules that can't be used in 4 lanes SSDs.
Click to expand...

Lower costs has been my thinking too. The estimated cost of the SSD by some has been grossly exaggerated thus far I think.

I bet Sony have secured a great deal for the multi-year contract to supply 12-18 million NAND chips/month. And the same for the flash controller.
 
BadBreathOfTheWild

BadBreathOfTheWild

Banned
ethomaz said:
I read about Cerny choosing 12 lanes due they wanted to use slower and cheaper NAND module.
To reach the same 5.5GB/s with 4 lanes requires faster and expensive NAND modules.
Maybe they got a good contract for these cheaper/slower modules that can't be used in 4 lanes SSDs.
Click to expand...

I agree the 12 channel interface will be a balance between getting the 5+ GB/s speed required and the cost of the flash memory. There could also be an element of heat management, too. If you can pull 5+GB/s over 12 different chips, that might spread heat better than less channels over more exotic chips. Flash memory performance degrades with heat.
I wouldn’t be surprised if spreading the load over 12 channels and 12 slower chips actually means they can keep the flash memory cool enough to sustain peak performance.
Something necessary if your game is built around those speeds.
 
Q

quest

Not Banned from OT
hemo memo said:
I miss E3. All the crap about ESA. Are you happy now?
Click to expand...
You are not enjoying 1000 outlets maximizing hits with 1 reveal per 2 hour show. Down with man and dirty E3 lol. I not bothering with this crap either. If the world wide press is not alerted and covering it is big nothing and waste of my time. So glad E3 is gone those 5 hours I needed for news being replaced by 50000 is awesome I tell you. Bring back news print to my door step to.
 
Dabaus

Dabaus

Banned
Since the game awards back in December to the most recent Inside Xbox, it seemed like Microsoft was leading the charge in terms of messaging for next generation. It seemed like they had momentum and that the wind was in their sails. It seems to me that the most recent inside xbox, or perhaps the way they sold it, was a misstep for them. Going into next generation was always going to be an uphill climb for Microsoft, but Epic following up the next week with a true next gen look on PS5 I think set them back alot, if not permanently in terms of momentum and perception. Just something ive been thinking.
 
hemo memo

hemo memo

Gold Member
Dabaus said:
Since the game awards back in December to the most recent Inside Xbox, it seemed like Microsoft was leading the charge in terms of messaging for next generation. It seemed like they had momentum and that the wind was in their sails. It seems to me that the most recent inside xbox, or perhaps the way they sold it, was a misstep for them. Going into next generation was always going to be an uphill climb for Microsoft, but Epic following up the next week with a true next gen look on PS5 I think set them back alot, if not permanently in terms of momentum and perception. Just something ive been thinking.
Click to expand...

“True” next gen because of an engine demonstration vs full games?
 
Coulomb_Barrier

Coulomb_Barrier

Member
THE:MILKMAN said:
Lower costs has been my thinking too. The estimated cost of the SSD by some has been grossly exaggerated thus far I think.

I bet Sony have secured a great deal for the multi-year contract to supply 12-18 million NAND chips/month. And the same for the flash controller.
Click to expand...

Maybe but it's still a monumental increase comparative to what Sony/MS paid for the 5400rpm HDDs in old gen, which must have a BOM of 75 cents per unit they're that shite 😆
 
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V

Voidout

Member
Dabaus said:
Not a single game MS showed at the inside xbox looked next gen. The reaction was universally negative.
Click to expand...
Their entire showcase was garbage because they have no games. I don't think people understand what it means for a studio to release a successful AAA game. It requires pedigree, experience, time and even then it doesn't turn out. People who think XBGS are making tons of AAA games are kidding themselves. Most of the studios are inexperienced/indie and the ones that are making AAA are probably releasing 2022 - 2023. Xbox fans will continue to wait for games and when they get them there is no assurance of quality. Stop holding on to a dream and buy shit from the companies that actually releases good games (Ninty/Sooony).
 
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Agnostic2020

Agnostic2020

Member
Mod of War said:
Yes.

There will be no TLOU2 discussion in this thread that is not within the context of potential upgrades on next-gen.

This goes for random dropped tweets and screenshots as well. Immediate thread or site bans will be warranted.
Click to expand...
Sounds great man.and if someone gets funny about hints of leak and stuff like that ban those guys as well please. Much appreciated 💪👍❤
 
pawel86ck

pawel86ck

Banned
BadBreathOfTheWild said:
You’re confusing an SSDs sequential read speed with the entire IO pipeline as relates to a game-like task. Xbox’s SSD is pretty low tier as far as PC NVMe drives go already. I was only talking about the SSD, not everything else.

How it uses that 2.4GB/s once it has left the flash controller, and how well it used the ~4.8GB/s once it has left the decompressor is unknown at the moment. From what Microsoft has revealed with the Velocity Architecture it doesn’t seem to be as focussed or as finely tuned with what Sony has done. Whether the rest of the pipeline beats PC’s copying to VRAM over PCIe is up for debate. It seems like XSX needs another copy operation after it hits RAM as part of what Cerny called check-in. If XSX had a DMA controller that does that, it’s strange they didn’t mention it as part of XVA.

XSX entire IO pipeline might well work better in practice than a PC’s that starts with a faster NVMe drive, though. I’m not arguing against that at all. Just the high-end SSD description when applied to NVMe drives, although not if you still consider SATA stuff.
Click to expand...
It's not unknown. Quick resume feature proves suspended xbox one x games running on XSX can fill 12 GB with just around 5 seconds, so it means 2.4 GB SSD RAW speed was used to the fullest.
 
hemo memo

hemo memo

Gold Member
Gediminas said:
vs trailers you wanted to say? real demo against trailers. who gives more perception of the next gen?
Click to expand...

Actual games in development. Full games. Or a demonstration of an engine that will run on multiple devices including my phone?

I mean Sony is a business, that’s their job to frame this as a win but seriously? An engine demo that no one would remember if this was E3.

I’ll get excited when I see PS Studios games. At least Cerny agrees with me “Game players are here for the fanatics games”
 
THE:MILKMAN

THE:MILKMAN

Member
Coulomb_Barrier said:
Maybe but it's still a monumental increase comparative to what Sony/MS paid for the 5400rpm HDDs in old gen, which must have a BOM of 75 cents per unit they're that shite 😆
Click to expand...

Sure it will be more but I'm confident the cost to Sony/Microsoft will be closer to $50 than $150 (Bloomberg graph). PS4/X One HDD were $37 according to BOM estimates back in 2013.

Also a HDD could never really be cost reduced where as flash can/will in many ways.
 
Gediminas

Gediminas

Banned
hemo memo said:
Actual games in development. Full games. Or a demonstration of an engine that will run on multiple devices including my phone?

I mean Sony is a business, that’s their job to frame this as a win but seriously? An engine demo that no one would remember if this was E3.

I’ll get excited when I see PS Studios games. At least Cerny agrees with me “Game players are here for the fanatics games”
Click to expand...
that demo gave us sense of the TRUE next gen. those trailers gave us nothing. apart that they are coming. in what state? who knows... demo gave us hope that there is a progress in next gen, not half assed trailers which looked generic.
 
Coulomb_Barrier

Coulomb_Barrier

Member
THE:MILKMAN said:
Sure it will be more but I'm confident the cost to Sony/Microsoft will be closer to $50 than $150 (Bloomberg graph). PS4/X One HDD were $37 according to BOM estimates back in 2013.

Also a HDD could never really be cost reduced where as flash can/will in many ways.
Click to expand...

Just highlights the night and day difference between these gens. Seven years ago we got HDDs that were slow by 2013 standards. This time in PS5 we're getting a best in class, fastest on market NVMe SSD. If those HDDs were $37 the SSD has to be at least double maybe close to triple this round.
 
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Metroiddarks

Metroiddarks

Member
Darius87 said:
in order for sony to achieve linear scaling in ssd speed is needed to remove all bottlenecks, so same should be for ms.
we know xsex have hw decompressor but what about coherency, maping, file i/o, check in load manegement? what hw does this? ms claimed they ssd is x40 faster then xone which is close, hdd in xone is 5400rpm which are 100mb/s * 40 = 4gb/s but doesn't that mean they should have all these bottlenecks removed like sony has to achieve linear scaling? but there's only hw decompressor so other features must be runing on cpu? or it could be that ms 4.2gb/s figure isn't sustained speeds and it's peak figure at 2:1 compression ratio?

p.s edit actually xsex stated 4.8gb/s not 4.2 so x40 isn't acurate meaning most likely there's bottlenecs in xsex ssd.
Click to expand...
I am sure if you could ask to a dev which will works with these machines, he will told you Xbox made a good IO solution but is just not so good as Sony made.

Xbox foccus in put more CUs and in my opinion intentionally ignore other bottlenecks of IO solution, now the realized than Sony foccus in not only got a
better SSD and also put more effort in its IO in order to remove so many bottleneck as they can (even modifying its GPU) , one example could be PS5 doesn't use CPU for IO protocols like
got info directly from the SSD instead Xbox said they reduce to a 'tenth' of a single core.

BCPack is just that package of tools which already exists in Xbox one and you don't heard dev saying how much this improve against the PS4 compression solutions even when
in paper are better but hey is new .... the difference is now will hardware in order to improve that performance but is not complete new.
 
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THE:MILKMAN

THE:MILKMAN

Member
Coulomb_Barrier said:
Just highlights the night and day difference between these gens. Seven years ago we got HDDs that were slow by 2013 standards. This time in PS5 we're getting a best in class, fastest on market NVMe SSD. If those HDDs were $37 the SSD has to be at least double maybe close to triple this round.
Click to expand...

Like I say I think some will be surprised what some parts will cost in the numbers we're talking about here. If we go by Bloomberg then the SSD/RAM comes in at $250 then you can add ~$120 for the SoC. There's $370. How does their $450 BOM make any sense? If I'm wrong here then look forward to $600 systems.

I look forward to the BOM reports but IHS/isuppli did get PS3 BOM wrong before reevaluating years later.
 
T

Three Jackdaws

Unconfirmed Member
Lawrence ‘Chunk’ Cohen said:


Timestamped link to today's video where the guys discuss interpreting dev comments as "faster storage may literally give you a performance increase using this engine" (referencing UE5). I assume he means FPS increase? Or just the more details streaming from the SSD?
Click to expand...

He mentioned something interesting and I have been having the same thoughts. Some people came up with theories about Sony must have paid Epic Games to do this technical demo but the truth is Sony love slapping their name of everything, all we got from the demo was that it was running on the Playstation 5, none of the Playstation media accounts shared the demo either, nor did they acknowledge it.
 
Thirty7ven

Thirty7ven

Banned
dan_of_orion said:
He mentioned something interesting and I have been having the same thoughts. Some people came up with theories about Sony must have paid Epic Games to do this technical demo but the truth is Sony love slapping their name of everything, all we got from the demo was that it was running on the Playstation 5, none of the Playstation media accounts shared the demo either, nor did they acknowledge it.
Click to expand...

Said this this before but you know how it goes.

It's all about creating the narratives that work for each. Xbox crowd created the bought and paid for narrative, and then aided the PC crowd in creating their own narrative, the "Big Laptop in Little China" narrative.
 
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