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Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Console tEch threaD

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SatansReverence

Hipster Princess
The variation is dependent on power, not heat/temperature. It is a known variable, unlike temperature which can vary depending on variation with the APU itself but also room temperature.

Power = Heat created. Again, as I said, the console will be designed to perform at it's stated frequencies in a room at 40+ degrees. It does this by limiting it's overall power draw to prevent it creating more heat than it can dissipate in that ambient temperature. This is a simple bit of overhead that all console manufacturers have to take into account unless they want their console to perform great in Norway but like trash in Australia.

Given it is a known variable, the time + power required to render the frame can be calculated and compared to this limit, just as it can be with the limit from fixed clocks. I agree it appears like there is more work, but that's what the tools are there for.

Player actions aren't a known variable however. Unless it is an entirely scripted sequence, there will be unknowable variables.

What I don't understand is why you feel this requires *far* more work

Go on, quote me where I said it would take >far< more work.

You are looking at it from the negative perspective though, variable down. From the perspective of the same APU with the same cooling at fixed clocks it is variable upward.

It's a negative because it is in direct comparison to a system that is not only more powerful by doesn't have that variance in performance.

The performance is predictable and consistent for a given game though.

Games aren't a CGI movie. The dynamics of players, A.I and physics aren't predictable.

Then where both are over loaded you have the option to optimise the CPU or GPU processes.

>or<

Again, as I've said, if a developer wants a smooth game experience, they will need to leave more performance on the table, or spend more time optimising than they otherwise would need to.

It's a different approach to what's come before, but it's about efficiency and an elegant solution to getting higher performance for your power budget.

It's a sub optimal approach compared to your competition that is already more powerful and doesn't need to account for the variance.

No, the people that replied to me are people that have been attacking variable frequencies with ignorant arguments. Don't worry.

This is hilarious coming from the guy who tried to add the 14%* smartshift performance boost twice in an ass backwards way.
 
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So PS Now offered remote storage of games and remote execution.

This seems to refer to remote storage but local execution on a VM.

Perhaps this will be Sony’s solution for areas where PS now wouldn’t perform well because of network issues (basically everywhere it turns out).

Or maybe it’s like Nintendo offer with online - a curated set of BC games that’s bundled with PS Plus subscriptions ...
Do you not recall Sony's deal with MS for Game streaming using Azure? Welp there it is.
 

Vae_Victis

Banned


I guess this is PS NOW new and improved since it says cloud. Though I think PS5 is powerful enough to emulate, so for the latest console they may enable download and play of old gen games, effectively making it complete BC as long as it is part of their library which will probably created after a lot of testing.

Is there any link to an actual deposited patent on an official website, and not just a scribbled jpg file uploaded by whoever on Twitter?
 
I am expecting that Sony has done away with the PSVR black box and integrated it into the PS5 and that the the PSVR2 will be fully wireless so every PS5 will be PSVR ready and just require the wireless headset . A wireless PSVR will likely be much more popular along with higher resolution .
No, wireless would push up the price by at least 50 if not 100 dollars. Price is the problem, not wires.
 

3liteDragon

Member
uXGcgHb.jpg


4b8.gif


Article link:

 

ultrazilla

Gold Member
How many of you are content with having "Next Generation" games be native 4k, 30FPS with RTX on?
I think many will end up like that and we've already seen proof of it happening. (Assassin's Creed Valhalla).
 

Gamerguy84

Member
How many of you are content with having "Next Generation" games be native 4k, 30FPS with RTX on?
I think many will end up like that and we've already seen proof of it happening. (Assassin's Creed Valhalla).

Fine with it. In my perfect world though I would want every game to offer 4k 30fps and whatever resolution like 1440 CB4K and 60fps which id probably use more.
 

DrDamn

Member
It's a negative because it is in direct comparison to a system that is not only more powerful by doesn't have that variance in performance.

...

It's a sub optimal approach compared to your competition that is already more powerful and doesn't need to account for the variance.

That's fascinating, but what has a direct comparison to XSX have to do with it? If MS used the same tech in conjunction with the XSX design it would make it perform better and more efficiently too.
 

Dodkrake

Banned
Power = Heat created. Again, as I said, the console will be designed to perform at it's stated frequencies in a room at 40+ degrees. It does this by limiting it's overall power draw to prevent it creating more heat than it can dissipate in that ambient temperature. This is a simple bit of overhead that all console manufacturers have to take into account unless they want their console to perform great in Norway but like trash in Australia.



Player actions aren't a known variable however. Unless it is an entirely scripted sequence, there will be unknowable variables.



Go on, quote me where I said it would take >far< more work.



It's a negative because it is in direct comparison to a system that is not only more powerful by doesn't have that variance in performance.



Games aren't a CGI movie. The dynamics of players, A.I and physics aren't predictable.



>or<

Again, as I've said, if a developer wants a smooth game experience, they will need to leave more performance on the table, or spend more time optimising than they otherwise would need to.



It's a sub optimal approach compared to your competition that is already more powerful and doesn't need to account for the variance.



This is hilarious coming from the guy who tried to add the 14%* smartshift performance boost twice in an ass backwards way.
The gal on you, someone that doesn't understand what efficiency means. Go to bed, child
 

PaintTinJr

Member
Power = Heat created. Again, as I said, the console will be designed to perform at it's stated frequencies in a room at 40+ degrees. It does this by limiting it's overall power draw to prevent it creating more heat than it can dissipate in that ambient temperature. This is a simple bit of overhead that all console manufacturers have to take into account unless they want their console to perform great in Norway but like trash in Australia.

From that quote, you either haven't watched and comprehended the Road to PS5 presentation and the DF follow up interview, or intentionally FUDing while fully understanding that your statement contradicts what has been stated as facts (by the System Architect) of how the PS5 paradigm shift to variable clocks and constant power draw works.

The first part of your statement that is wrong, is that the maximum 2.23GHz clock (and corresponding fixed power limit) for the PS5 was selected based on an acceptable noise level of the cooling system when running various occupancy code in min and max ambient environments. They could have clocked even higher with a bigger (constant) power budget if they were prepared to increase the operating noise of the console or improve on the cooling solution.

Whether the console is in Norway or Australia plays no part in which deterministic clock speed the GPU changes to. The simulation model of the (APU) silicon in the power management controller(inside the APU) pre-selects a (deterministic) clockspeed based on analysis of the work it is about to do to keep power draw constant.

In a warm country with a PS5 using an APU that passed at the lower end of QA, all that will happen is that the cooling system will have to work marginally harder, but even then it is expected that PlayStation have choose conservatively with the simulation model and the PS5 will remain relatively quiet - despite it hit GPU clockspeeds +600Mhz above normal air cooled quiet-PC GPU clocks.
 
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Thirty7ven

Banned
Article link:


Hmm

All this compact design doesn’t exactly come cheap, with a Turbo model that targets 1080p starting at $1,699; there’s a reason why gaming consoles are so popular compared to even the best gaming PCs. But for the price, you are getting a well-specced machine that’ll handle all current and near-future games, as well as handle intensive work tasks such as video rendering or CAD jobs. That's not something a PS5 can do.

These PC sites always come out with the wackiest takes on anything relating to PS5 .
 

Rudius

Member
It just means they believe in its future. What’s so problematic about my comments? 5 million and ever declining sales is a success?
The decline only started this final year, together with the PS4 itself. Look at the graphs:

 

roops67

Member
The constant confrontational warring by SatansReverence has gone waay too far, I'm surprised he/she (hipster princess?) has lasted this long when you guys had been patiently been trying re-explain over and over the variable frequency technology on his/her demands! But he/she chooses to misinterpret it to fit his/her own narrative that XSX fixed frequency is superior and variable frequency means 'unpredictable variable performance'!?! WTF if thats true then Sony and developers are all conspiring on a massive cover-up to make unstable games!
It's obvious what SatansReverence is really upto, and theres no genuine attempt by him/her to understand the tech, just a deep insecure drive to trod on the PS5 here to claim superiority in his/her mindset!!
Please guys don't bother wasting another futile breath on him/her (dammit wish I knew if this is a dude or dudette or in-between and save all the 'he/her' references)
Time to shut this pest down, we all need to report this nuisance!!!! :messenger_pouting:
 
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roops67

Member
I don't think anybody has recently brought up the way PS5 variable frequency mitigates for situations like 'race to idle' and how that is big win compared to fixed frequency, there's a link somewhere in the past posts with a graph showing an example how it's implemented. I was gonna elaborate on this... but gonna hold off till pest control had done their job (come on mods!)... I have no desire to waste my time in twisted fuckedup debates with the 'he/she'!!
 
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Great Hair

Banned
Is there any link to an actual deposited patent on an official website, and not just a scribbled jpg file uploaded by whoever on Twitter?

no pdf though

source:
 

Neo Blaster

Member
This is an aggressively dumb take though. Hellblade 2 looked better than anything else I've seen so far. That's not to discount TLOU2 and GoT because they both seem great but honestly with gamepass I never have "nothing to play". Just started up Soul Calibur 6.
You mean that CG(oops, in-game representative of expected gameplay) running on a PC at 24fps? Thanks, but I'll wait for real gameplay on XSX before judging that game's graphics.
 
Power = Heat created. Again, as I said, the console will be designed to perform at it's stated frequencies in a room at 40+ degrees. It does this by limiting it's overall power draw to prevent it creating more heat than it can dissipate in that ambient temperature. This is a simple bit of overhead that all console manufacturers have to take into account unless they want their console to perform great in Norway but like trash in Australia.

Please let's not play to be insider you don't have idea of the operating temperature range of PS5.

Player actions aren't a known variable however. Unless it is an entirely scripted sequence, there will be unknowable variables.

Games aren't a CGI movie. The dynamics of players, A.I and physics aren't predictable.

Not exactly, when you are making a test of any software specially a game you test different scenarios or workloads, in a game for example with help
of things like a profiler you got an idea of this kind of things and even then you left a little threshold in case your miss some scenario, is always perfect ? not,
is not but is the way we work today so its not weird.

It's a negative because it is in direct comparison to a system that is not only more powerful by doesn't have that variance in performance.

I never heard a dev ask to its boss/manager for the clock or the flop of a CPU or GPU, the reason is simple you cannot get an idea of the performance
from a piece of silicon with that data. So sorry but doesn't works like this, not because a company like Sony and Xbox go a tell you this are flops of my box
then you can just said without fear or be question than A system is Y percent better.

Maybe you tell me this difference could be a good approximation but the thing, we don't have a idea a how good is RDNA 2 (how good scale in CU and Clock)
and even less a how the customizations of each company will affect the performance of each chip.

Again, as I've said, if a developer wants a smooth game experience, they will need to leave more performance on the table, or spend more time optimising than they otherwise would need to.
You always do that, this one of the reason of why use the term flops is ridiculous coming from someone who pretend to know something.

I can understand this point of view from a normal user but if your actually have knowledge of how is make a big piece of software you know that you
always needs to decide when you can run some process and continue within the parameters than you need in time (in the case of a game the time per frame).

If we believe what Cerny says things like cache scrubber will help to reach in a easier way a high percentage of SOL on your GPU.

This companies doesn't spend dozens or even hundred millions of dollars in create a console just for you to reduce that work is just a number of a theoric performance
from a part of the GPU.

It's a sub optimal approach compared to your competition that is already more powerful and doesn't need to account for the variance.

Its competitor has more theoric performance in one part of the GPU but could be harder or not to reach that performance in a system
without all this extra customizations we know Sony introduce.

This is hilarious coming from the guy who tried to add the 14%* smartshift performance boost twice in an ass backwards way.
The hilarious thing is you had a ban in the reply and soon is lifted you prove was necessary in your case, is good to debate idea what is dumb is
use phrases where you affirm without a doubt in things that surely for obvious reason you do not know and then complain when others
do the same thing.
 
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SatansReverence

Hipster Princess
The gal on you, someone that doesn't understand what efficiency means.

You made a completely deluded argument where you tried to take >an already boosted performance figure<, applied a "real world performance" offset, >and then tried to re-apply the aformentioned boost<.

It. Does. Not. Work. Like. That.

You can fill your post with drivel about "transitor switching" all you like, your entire concept was fundamentally wrong.

Go to bed, child

Ironic.

The first part of your statement that is wrong, is that the maximum 2.23GHz clock (and corresponding fixed power limit) for the PS5 was selected based on an acceptable noise level of the cooling system when running various occupancy code in min and max ambient environments. They could have clocked even higher with a bigger (constant) power budget if they were prepared to increase the operating noise of the console or improve on the cooling solution.

How can someone actually attempt to disconnect "noise level" from thermal control???

Whether the console is in Norway or Australia plays no part in which deterministic clock speed the GPU changes to. The simulation model of the (APU) silicon in the power management controller(inside the APU) pre-selects a (deterministic) clockspeed based on analysis of the work it is about to do to keep power draw constant.

In a warm country with a PS5 using an APU that passed at the lower end of QA, all that will happen is that the cooling system will have to work marginally harder, but even then it is expected that PlayStation have choose conservatively with the simulation model and the PS5 will remain relatively quiet - despite it hit GPU clockspeeds +600Mhz above normal air cooled quiet-PC GPU clocks.

Yes? Did I claim otherwise? No, instead I said the exact same thing.

Is your argument that the "other" console is more powerful? or that variable is inferior to fixed?

Both, they are intrinsically connected when comparing the two consoles.
 
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SatansReverence

Hipster Princess
Please let's not play to be insider you don't have idea of the operating temperature range of PS5.

And this is why the rest of your post isn't worth even bothering with.

I never claimed to have insider knowledge. I gave theoretical numbers to explain the core concept. It is also a simple, irrefutable fact, that these consoles are designed to be capable of reaching their nominal performance regardless of ambient temperatures. It doesn't matter if it's 5 degrees, or 45 degrees, the systems are designed to perform the same.

Microsoft engineered the XSX to be capable sustaining peak performance regardless of the environment it was used in. Sony however, have outright confirmed, they could not do this. To ensure that every console performs the same way, variable performance was required. This is, again, more difficult to optimise for >or< will require devs to leave more performance untapped and on the table.
 

farmerboy

Member

... and all I'm thinking the artists formerly known as evolution-studio's talents are really getting wasted

Edit: In all honesty it looks like a really nice offroading racer, maybe has some elements of MotorStorm with the crashing etc. but it's not it's spiritual successor, this is way too tame!!
How I wished they skipped DriveClub, then MotorStorm would have lived on!
But hey there's always hope, Sony still owns the brand MotorStorm and they did hold onto some of the key developers (I think)
Maybe they skipped a whole generation cos the crazy amount of physics needed in the next gen MotorStorm couldn't be done... The PS4 JAGUAR CPU is less powerful than the PS3 CELL CPU , and even with the aid of GPGPU through the ACE's on the PS4 it still wasn't enough... I'm speculating, or talking shit :messenger_beaming:


In all of gaming there are two things I wish for more than anything else.

A new Motorstorm.

And a new Ghost n Goblins.
 

farmerboy

Member
You mean other than attempting to add the same performance boost 2 separate times to the same system?

The hilarious claim that 2.23ghz gpu is automatically better than a 1.8ghz absolutely regardless of any other factors?

The simple fact that the PS5s performance is variable that Sony themselves have admitted?

And congratulations, you can link to a marketing page for smartshift, perhaps you can try explaining to everyone how you can apply that 14% boost twice to the same system.

p.s Do quote me where I claimed "that this technology will struggle developers". Go on, I'm waiting.

Mate, the frequency is variable, so as to keep performance at the highest level ALL the time.

Why the wilful desire to misunderstand and misconstrue?
 

roops67

Member
Please let's not play to be insider you don't have idea of the operating temperature range of PS5.



Not exactly, when you are making a test of any software specially a game you test different scenarios or workloads, in a game for example with help
of things like a profiler you got an idea of this kind of things and even then you left a little threshold in case your miss some scenario, is always perfect ? not,
is not but is the way we work today so its not weird.



I never heard a dev ask to its boss/manager for the clock or the flop of a CPU or GPU, the reason is simple you cannot get an idea of the performance
from a piece of silicon with that data. So sorry but doesn't works like this, not because a company like Sony and Xbox go a tell you this are flops of my box
then you can just said without fear or be question than A system is Y percent better.

Maybe you tell me this difference could be a good approximation but the thing, we don't have a idea a how good is RDNA 2 (how good scale in CU and Clock)
and even less a how the customizations of each company will affect the performance of each chip.


You always do that, this one of the reason of why use the term flops is ridiculous coming from someone who pretend to know something.

I can understand this point of view from a normal user but if your actually have knowledge of how is make a big piece of software you know that you
always needs to decide when you can run some process and continue within the parameters than you need in time (in the case of a game the time per frame).

If we believe what Cerny says things like cache scrubber will help to reach in a easier way a high percentage of SOL on your GPU.

This companies doesn't spend dozens or even hundred millions of dollars in create a console just for you to reduce that work is just a number of a theoric performance
from a part of the GPU.



Its competitor has more theoric performance in one part of the GPU but could be harder or not to reach that performance in a system
without all this extra customizations we know Sony introduce.


The hilarious thing is you had a ban in the reply and soon is lifted you prove was necessary in your case, is good to debate idea what is dumb is
use phrases where you affirm without a doubt in things that surely for obvious reason you do not know and then complain when others
do the same thing.
Metroiddarks save yourself the headache I suggest don't reply to SatansReverence, she's not interested in the truth, only wants to prove that XSX is superior through whatever twisted loose logic it takes. As they say don't feed the trolls
I've reported her for warring, would be great if you do too. The quicker we get rid of this fud warring pest the better
 
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And this is why the rest of your post isn't worth even bothering with.

I never claimed to have insider knowledge. I gave theoretical numbers to explain the core concept. It is also a simple, irrefutable fact, that these consoles are designed to be capable of reaching their nominal performance regardless of ambient temperatures. It doesn't matter if it's 5 degrees, or 45 degrees, the systems are designed to perform the same.

Microsoft engineered the XSX to be capable sustaining peak performance regardless of the environment it was used in. Sony however, have outright confirmed, they could not do this. To ensure that every console performs the same way, variable performance was required. This is, again, more difficult to optimise for >or< will require devs to leave more performance untapped and on the table.
Me is who is not worth not to read, is not me who go and say word flop as actually was used as real metric which define all the performance.

But I will give you that I was wrong in my first point I apologize. For other points I will maintain my opinion.
 
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roops67

Member
And this is why the rest of your post isn't worth even bothering with.

I never claimed to have insider knowledge. I gave theoretical numbers to explain the core concept. It is also a simple, irrefutable fact, that these consoles are designed to be capable of reaching their nominal performance regardless of ambient temperatures. It doesn't matter if it's 5 degrees, or 45 degrees, the systems are designed to perform the same.

Microsoft engineered the XSX to be capable sustaining peak performance regardless of the environment it was used in. Sony however, have outright confirmed, they could not do this. To ensure that every console performs the same way, variable performance was required. This is, again, more difficult to optimise for >or< will require devs to leave more performance untapped and on the table.
DUMB DUMB DUMB AND PURE FUD
 
Metroiddarks save yourself the headache I suggest don't reply to SatansReverence, she's not interested in the truth, only wants to prove that XSX is superior through whatever twisted loose logic it takes. As they say don't feed the trolls
I've reported her for warring, would be great if you do too. The quicker we get rid of this fud warring pest the better
Yes I know but I bored and one of the reason of why join to this forum is because I find entertaining to see what the people
who is fan of each system (PC,Xbox,PS5) had in his mind. I am not here because I want to understand how good the consoles are
because I will not find that here.

I don't have a problem in apologize when I make a mistake to difference to many here.

When I saw someone use the word flop, that basically that scream 'I don't have idea of hard/copmplicated is make software/game but I want to have an opinion'.
 
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Dolomite

Member
How many of you are content with having "Next Generation" games be native 4k, 30FPS with RTX on?
I think many will end up like that and we've already seen proof of it happening. (Assassin's Creed Valhalla).
I'm content so long as they offer a performance mode. I can't see myself shelling out $1500 on an OLED so 1440p/60fps isn't aweful. But I want the option when I upgrade
 
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And this is why the rest of your post isn't worth even bothering with.

I never claimed to have insider knowledge. I gave theoretical numbers to explain the core concept. It is also a simple, irrefutable fact, that these consoles are designed to be capable of reaching their nominal performance regardless of ambient temperatures. It doesn't matter if it's 5 degrees, or 45 degrees, the systems are designed to perform the same.

Microsoft engineered the XSX to be capable sustaining peak performance regardless of the environment it was used in. Sony however, have outright confirmed, they could not do this. To ensure that every console performs the same way, variable performance was required. This is, again, more difficult to optimise for >or< will require devs to leave more performance untapped and on the table.
Jesus tap dancing christ.

Its been 24 fucking hours since i last checked this thread and you're still at it??

Give it a rest mate.
 
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Dargor

Member
How many of you are content with having "Next Generation" games be native 4k, 30FPS with RTX on?
I think many will end up like that and we've already seen proof of it happening. (Assassin's Creed Valhalla).

Dont give a single fuck about resolution and as long as its stable, fps can be whatever they want it to be. RTX, imho, is just the "new thing" so alot is being talked about it. Haven't seen anything mindblowing about it yet though, not even something impressive, so I'm gonna give it more time and see what becomes of it, but right now, on or off, it means nothing to me.

What I want from next gen is better games. Literally none of those things can deliver on that.
 

Sinthor

Gold Member
Dont give a single fuck about resolution and as long as its stable, fps can be whatever they want it to be. RTX, imho, is just the "new thing" so alot is being talked about it. Haven't seen anything mindblowing about it yet though, not even something impressive, so I'm gonna give it more time and see what becomes of it, but right now, on or off, it means nothing to me.

What I want from next gen is better games. Literally none of those things can deliver on that.

I agree. I'd like to see more complexity in the games...and different types of gameplay, more than I'm stuck on "4k 60fps 4EVA!" Really, a ton of games today are basically the same game with different graphics and some variation on gameplay. Not saying they all have to be different, but seeing the power of these boxes result in at least some games with very different mechanics and features would be pretty nice. I'd take that over tons of ray tracing or 60fps with every game any day.
 

Sinthor

Gold Member
I want a stable framerate at 30fps, but with greater resolution and fidelity. I don’t want ps4 pro looking games at 60fps. People who want 60fps should just go to pc, where it can be achieved with higher fidelity.

Oh absolutely. One of the things I've loved about this generation is that I rarely, if ever noticed issues with a game where it really chugged or hitched. I'm sure it's out there but it at least was WAY less frequent than with the previous generation. So games being locked at least at 30fps is the thing. I want them to be smooth continuously without performance issues. Then the complexity and mechanics expanded and THEN I care about putting more RT or max frame rates, etc.
 
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