Mass Shift
Member
Unfortunately most developers choose not to support it though.
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Unfortunately most developers choose not to support it though.
Imtjnotu
Member
Denis Colovic
Member
Understandable for Console exclusives but not for multi platform titles.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Denis Colovic
Member
Anyone remember that Amazon is actually working on games? Which is really interesting. We might see some of that on PS5/ Xbox Scarlet as launch titles? Well there might be a chance that this is actually not a speculation. But who knows really.
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magnumpy
Member
garbage crap games. I mean maybe they will be great and fantastic, but I'll believe it when I see it.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
the funny thing is that the high oberon and gonzalo clocks indicate that the ps5 might have better cooling.
demigod
Member
So rich that you guys have to $1 gamepass.
Or it will be like listening to 747 or space shuttle launching like many pro units. I hope they can at least get to 75% of what MS did with scorpio.
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llien
Member
1. If you mean in retail, yes, so? Note the recent DX12 RT 1.1 announcement, something is being cooked internally and it's ready enough to push into API
2. Possibly
3. AMD didn't mention 5500 coming either. Just plain announced it very shortly before release with poker face and waited for NV to release 16xx super(crap) before announcing price or even releasing benches. That's the way AMD acts since Raja left (thank god).
4. It does not have to be THIS chip of this size for it to use RT.
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SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
it shouldnt be hard to figure out if they edited these two articles. google should have the cached versions or something right? they talk about the ps5 gpu, navi 10, navi 12 and navi 14 in these articles going back to june 2018.
Exclusive: The AMD Inside Story, Navi GPU Roadmap And The Cost Of Zen To Gamers
In 2016, AMD unveiled its first roadmap that officially contained the Navi GPU. It was scheduled to come soon after 7nm Vega and was supposed to be the next-generation GPU and land sometime in 2018. AMD held its Computex 2018 recently, to great success, but the one thing that bugged me was the...
wccftech.com
Exclusive: First AMD Navi GPU Will Have 40 CUs And Is Codenamed Navi 12
So I have an update on the AMD Navi GPU front. I have been informed that AMD has finalized the first Navi design and codenamed it Navi 12. We also know that the GPU will have 40 CUs. If the ratio of stream processors in the CU is the same as that of GCN, then you are looking at 64 CUs each for a...
wccftech.com
do you have any receipts?
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llien
Member
Google's cache has limited (and site specific) longevity, with sites updated quickly being on the shorter time to live.
TLZ
Banned
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
i dont think the navi articles were changed. i remember reading them back then.
llien
Member
You are commenting on a link proving wccftech edits shit retroactively.
I don't know why "oh, but on Navi they didn't do it" is relevant.
Or why anyone would trust "anonymous sources" of a site caught doing shit like that.
bitbydeath
Member
1. Yes, anything available.
2. Yes.
3. 5800 is still due next year which make this one most likely.
4. RT is a change introduced with RDNA2 of which there are two models to pick from 5800 / 5900
Have a read of this-
AMD’s second-gen RDNA GPUs will feature hardware accelerated ray tracing in 2020
At the E3 Editor's Day AMD has unveiled its Ray Tracing Vision... which will eventually stretch into the cloud
www.pcgamesn.com
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
its relevant because you are dismissing the latest reports by them even though they literally said that the 40 cu navi wont be the one in the ps5 a year ago.
i asked you to tell me if they had edited this particular article that proves their credibility when it comes to navi stuff and you showed an unrelated article. yes, we know wccftech has done some shoddy stuff but these two articles were covered in many different places back when they came out. it shouldnt be too hard to find if they went back to edit them. i remember the entire navi made for sony article back when it came out. everyone was laughing at them. i vaguely remember the 40 cu navi article as well.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
since rnda 2.0 cards are supposedly on 7nm+, it would explain why oberon and gonzalo clocks were so high. 7nm clocks are already high but 7nm+ is supposedly 20% smaller and gives them 10% in power savings. that would explain the relatively low 300-315mm2 numbers for the ps5 die as well. a 60 cu apu should be around 360-380 mm2 on 7nm. 20% of that is 60mm2. that gives us 300-315mm2 chips on 7nm+.1. Yes, anything available.
2. Yes.
3. 5800 is still due next year which make this one most likely.
4. RT is a change introduced with RDNA2 of which there are two models to pick from 5800 / 5900
Have a read of this-
AMD’s second-gen RDNA GPUs will feature hardware accelerated ray tracing in 2020
At the E3 Editor's Day AMD has unveiled its Ray Tracing Vision... which will eventually stretch into the cloud
zen 2 is 70mm2 on 7nm. flute leak shows 1/4 cache or roughly a 40mm2 cpu. 20% of that would be 8mm2. so they would save some space there as well. the zen 2+ in this leak could mean its on 7nm+.
Playstation 5 & Xbox Scarlett Specs & Ray Tracing Information
At the end of next year, we'll see the introduction of the next-generation consoles from both Sony and Microsoft. For Sony, the company has drip-fed PS5 in
www.redgamingtech.com
so yeah, evidence is piling up that next gen consoles will be on 7nm+ but it sounds way too good to be true.
edit: found another instance of zen + in a komachi tweet about ariel.
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llien
Member
You are missing the point.
I was talking about the most important part about sites "leaking" information: credibility.
Once site loses that, you can as well read random pastebins, some of them will be right.
Sometimes.
And 5700 is Navi 10 not 12, by the way.
Who has confirmed that?
Most of what we know about it is summarized on this AMD slide:
So, it's safe to assume:
1) 7nm+ => 7nm EUV
2) RDNA 2 chips
3) It was also said that next year's chips will support "hardware RT"
4) RT specific hardware will likely be even smaller part of the die than in NV's case (where it is at around 8% I was told) given the "hybrid" approach
But:
a) No idea chips of which size will be rolled out, nor when it will happen
b) No hint at exactly which variation of unknown chips will end up in which console
c) AMD semi-custom dept did cook unusual chip found in PS4 Pro, that mixed last gen and next gen hardware features into a single product, so there are even more possibilities of what AMD could do
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
i completely understand what you are saying. they lack credibility and everything they say should be taken with a huge grain of salt.
BUT they have been right on the money for navi going back to a year and a half ago. its silly to dismiss this particular article without any shred of evidence.
and navi 12 being 40 cu caught them by surprise. they expected it to be navi 10. they literally say that in the article. i wouldnt be surprised if the designations changed. after all navi 14 is the 24 cu part and the navi 10 is the 40 cu part. its possible that navi 12 was the 40 cu part at one point and navi 10 was the full 60 cu chip which got delayed to next year for whatever reason. this would also explain the komachi leaks saying ariel and gonzalo are navi 10 lite. back in january maybe navi 10 was indeed the big 60 cu gpu and then something changed and they made the 40 cu navi 12, navi 10 instead.
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DeeDogg_
Banned
whats your point? And does that nonexistent point justify lagging behind an entire generation by weak ass hardware? Thanks for caring about the poor casuals who will buy the next gen systems anyway.
CrustyBritches
Gold Member
Wccftech's source seems have gotten the 40CU GPU right, but there's still a substantial difference between even that article and the new one. Furthermore, they're still lacking details and just throwing shit to see if it sticks, and theory-crafting rumors. Probably ~75% of what they posted concerning this topic was inaccurate.
Additionally, they've provided no details nor claimed a source for anything console related. The leaks seem to be tied to a desktop GPU-oriented source, with Wccftech providing the console speculation. Info from the "source" is labeled "Exclusive", new "Big Navi" article isn't, and isn't the first data leak of "Big Navi"(Komachi in July).
Example:
Notice it's just him saying it's likely to be full Navi die and GPU the will power consoles, not a source. He's altered his story from "AMD designed Navi for PS5" to "for the consoles".
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The Gonzalo/Oberon/Prosporo leaks and this wccftech speculation are mutually exclusive. Gonzalo is tied to actual data, confirmed by DF, and the dev kits have been out for months. This "rumor" is just a guy assuming with no source or data, no codenames, etc.
Additionally, they've provided no details nor claimed a source for anything console related. The leaks seem to be tied to a desktop GPU-oriented source, with Wccftech providing the console speculation. Info from the "source" is labeled "Exclusive", new "Big Navi" article isn't, and isn't the first data leak of "Big Navi"(Komachi in July).
Example:
Notice it's just him saying it's likely to be full Navi die and GPU the will power consoles, not a source. He's altered his story from "AMD designed Navi for PS5" to "for the consoles".
---
The Gonzalo/Oberon/Prosporo leaks and this wccftech speculation are mutually exclusive. Gonzalo is tied to actual data, confirmed by DF, and the dev kits have been out for months. This "rumor" is just a guy assuming with no source or data, no codenames, etc.
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bhunachicken
Member
That's pretty freaking sweet. Might not satisfy some, but we've all seen what devs are able to produce on the PS4's specs. I'd be quite happy with that.
FrostyJ93
Member
I'm sorry that piwer is not everything and that i care about people besides myself.
Never change hardcore crowd, never change.
CrustyBritches
Gold Member
Gonzalo Timeline:
1. January 17, 2019 | 1GHz core clock(ES1 status)
2. April 10, 2019 | 1.8GHz core clock(QS Status)
3. April 30, 2019 | Benji's "13TF" deleted tweet
4. May 20th, 2019 | *Unconfirmed* Reddit OQA PCB certification leak
5. June 10, 2019 | Apisak theorizes 13F8 is the devkit. New obscured Gonzalo in ES2 status(staggered 1 step back from other Gonzalo in QS status)
6. June 25, 2019 | Gonzalo and PS4 Fire Strike overall score reveal
7. July 21, 2019 | Flute Userbenchmark score with OPN and "Ariel pci-id"
*EDIT*Addition-> August 12, 2019
8. August 20, 2019 | Codemasters has "some" in the office tweet. Quickly deleted. Account deleted.
9. October 18, 2019 | Digital Foundry is 99% certain that Gonzalo is the silicon going into the PS5 at EGX
10. October 19, 2019 | Benji Tweets concerning new DF PS5 vid
I've believed in St. Gonzalo of the Heavenly Flute since the moment I saw it and sadly written too many pages on this subject. My biggest detractors have already been proven wrong on phase 1: Gonzalo is not PS5. Ex.:
I'll add more to this timeline as I go, but as you can see these are actual real data points. Ask for this sort evidence from the "60CU+" crowd and you will not receive a single data point. Give it a try and see.
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jonnyp
Member
bitbydeath
Member
CrustyBritches
, you’re biggest detractor is Ray-Tracing which doesn’t fit inside what you’ve written above. Also a near 13TF console is what I’m expecting out of the 5800. The 5700 isn’t capable of either.Furthermore your theory relies on MS and Sony sitting on their hands and supposedly finishing the console almost two years in advance of launch.
AND why even include the devkit confirmation from criterion, that has nothing to do with Gonzalo, it was the confirmation of the dev kit looking like the drawings that leaked and even Sony has since confirmed that to be accurate.
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CrustyBritches
Gold Member
There is a 99% chance you were wrong about Gonzalo. Face it.
Allowances for Gonzalo RT have been provided by DF(RDNA "1.5" with forward feature similar to RPM in Pro), and I also mentioned my theory on PS5's RT implementation on June 23, 2019, 5 days before the AMD patent story broke.
Gonzalo has nothing to do with Scarlett. Since we've known of RDNA and Navi 10 power consumption, I've been bouncing between 36/40CUs for PS5(depending on whether they disable for yields). I've always asserted Scarlett would have a bigger chip(~44CU) and full fat RT/ML. Why spin?
At least now you're linking something. I'm not sure what I'm supposed to be looking at, can you link the Criterion dev kit? My Codemaster tweet already confirms the "V" devkit. Not sure if I'm missing your point since the article is in Dutch.
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bitbydeath
Member
My point was even if it were true it isn’t final as the RT hardware only just became available. You seem to think Gonzalo is it and obviously have never followed how devkits go through numerous iterations before.
Also did you hear Gonzalo is running Windows? Bit odd since Sony uses Linux don’t you think?
You should investigate the differences of RDNA1 vs RDNA2. There is no .5 to a whole new architecture.
That is funny, despite the rumours all being in the opposite direction? I’m starting to think you may have an agenda here.
It’s irrelevant to this whole discussion aside from being a monster which shows it’s packing some serious hardware.
CrustyBritches
Gold Member
bitbydeath
I see you meant "Codemasters" not "Criterion". I thought you had a link to an actual source for anything. So we're back to square one with you not having posted a single data point.
---
1. The PS5 application date in BR on 5/28/19 actually fits real nicely with Gonzalo's April QS(Qualification Sample) status and the yet to be confirmed Quality Assurance leak on 5/20/19. Codemasters confirmation of possession of multiple dev kits in August shows that they've had them for months. NEO timeline for Dev Kit to Test Kit V2 was under 3 months.
2. DF and I both allowed for PS5 RT on small Navi. This is our bet: That PS5 is small(36/40CU) not big(60/64CU).
3. Apisak provided DF with the evidence Sony tested the PS4 on 3DMark with matching serial numbers on the actual PS4 chip. That is Day 1 stuff. You are purposefully being obtuse about that. He also provided the PS4 Pro entries.
4. You say "rumors" point to PS5 having a larger die size? I don't want rumors. I want a data point for your massive 300W+ 60/64CU chip. We know Scarlett is ~350mm-380mm² since the reveal. I provided a decent leak for PS5 being smaller with higher clocks and faster memory, and said they're about equal. Why spin again?
5. The PS5 dev kit is about the same size as the PS4 kit, but with that "V" for stacking. That's the point of it's design.
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bitbydeath
Member
CrustyBritches
1. I don’t think anyone is doubting Codemasters for having multiple dev kits. The point is they obviously not being the final devkits.
2. 5800 is likely to be either 44CU or 56CU. 5900 will probably target your higher numbers. 5700XT is 40CU so it’s obviously not that.
3. Those tests were all run after the fact. Asiapak has only been around since 2018.
4. The 5800 is expected to be between 350-400
5. The point of its design is to exhaust lots of hot air.
CrustyBritches
Gold Member
bitbydeath
Nothing you posted is a source for anything to do with consoles, especially PS5.
5700 XT @ 2GHz is already 250W with 8GB GDDR6. Add 32W for your 24GB GDDR6 claim. Add 30W for Zen 2 8c/16t CPU. You're at 312W already without even accounting for the extra 16-24CUs. In a motherfucking console, from a manufacturer that is part of the EU Efficient Gaming coalition that seeks to drive power usage in consoles down, not up. Read about it.
Your own chart here has your Navi 12 at upwards of 300W and 400mm² with 8GB GDDR6.
Once again, please post a single data point for PS5 that supports or confirms any of your claims.
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bitbydeath
Member
Nothing you posted is a source for anything to do with consoles, especially PS5.
5700 XT @ 2GHz is already 250W with 8GB GDDR6. Add 32W for your 24GB GDDR6 claim. Add 30W for Zen 2 8c/16t CPU. You're at 312W already without even accounting for the extra 16-24CUs. In a motherfucking console, from a manufacturer that is part of the EU Efficient Gaming coalition that seeks to drive power usage in consoles down, not up. Read about it.
Your own chart here has your Navi 12 at upwards of 300W and 400mm² with 8GB GDDR6.
Once again, please post a single data point for PS5 that supports or confirms any of your claims.
Read through them slowly, this is all the official information we have at this time. Everything else is considered rumours and the inclusion of RT means your theory of an old devkit being final isn’t correct as the hardware mentioned in these articles weren’t finalised even at the time of these posting.
Exclusive: What to Expect From Sony's Next-Gen PlayStation
Don't expect it anytime in 2019, but the next PlayStation console is well on its way—and it's packing ray-tracing support and a loadtime-killing solid-state hard drive.
Exclusive: A Deeper Look at the PlayStation 5
Now that the name is official, we've got more details about Sony's next-gen console—from the haptics-packed controller to UI improvements.
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Racer!
Member
Nothing you posted is a source for anything to do with consoles, especially PS5.
5700 XT @ 2GHz is already 250W with 8GB GDDR6. Add 32W for your 24GB GDDR6 claim. Add 30W for Zen 2 8c/16t CPU. You're at 312W already without even accounting for the extra 16-24CUs. In a motherfucking console, from a manufacturer that is part of the EU Efficient Gaming coalition that seeks to drive power usage in consoles down, not up. Read about it.
Your own chart here has your Navi 12 at upwards of 300W and 400mm² with 8GB GDDR6.
Once again, please post a single data point for PS5 that supports or confirms any of your claims.
Could you please stop posting rumors and your own logic as facts? Thanks
CrustyBritches
Gold Member
This article is from April 16, 2019, so of course the hardware predates the June Gonzalo dev kit and it's later, staggered ES2 version.
You've listed what is probably Dev Kit 1. What I listed could be Dev Kit 2 and Test Kit 1. With NEO, Dev Kit 2 had "Final Specs". Within 3 months they were at Test Kit 2. SCEE(Codemasters region) never got Test Kit 1.
Codemasters' Dev Tweet confirms they have the "V" kit at latest in August, months ago. According to NEO timeline, they'd have "Final Spec".
Unlike what you said, Gonzalo is "99% confirmed to be the silicon in PS5". I've stated my case, and I'll let you have the last word.
bitbydeath
Member
Wrong.
PS4 Pro Devkit was made available only three months before release.
Rumor: Playstation 4 Neo Devkit Now Available For Purchase for Developers
Rumors have begun to circulate that the Playstation 4 Neo devkit is now becoming available for purchase. The rumor started after word began to circulate
segmentnext.com
1. I don’t think anyone is doubting Codemasters for having multiple dev kits. The point is they obviously not being the final devkits.
2. 5800 is likely to be either 44CU or 56CU. 5900 will probably target your higher numbers. 5700XT is 40CU so it’s obviously not that.
3. Those tests were all run after the fact. Asiapak has only been around since 2018.
4. The 5800 is expected to be between 350-400
5. The point of its design is to exhaust lots of hot air.
I don't get it. You are expecting 13 TF consoles from Navi 12, which alone is expected at 10-13TF with 250-300W and 350-400mm2 die size (missing the CPU etc.). How is that supposed to work? There are two possibilities in my eyes:
1) a reduced Navi 12 with 10-11 TF to make room for the console additions
2) Navi 10 with RT tacked on (as some people said before, AMD did port tech between generations before for the consoles)
I would bet on 2), otherwise I don't see how MS and Sony can already ship dev kits with APUs.
Also Sony using Linux is no indication that the APU is not able to run Windows in a test bed (could also be a stress test from AMD). Drivers for Zen2 and Navi are there, so they would not need to create them from scratch.
Kazekage1981
Member
Neural network, AI, interesting and possible for next-gen
CrustyBritches
Gold Member
I used Sony's NEO Overview document. Plans could have shifted, but your links confirm what I said:Wrong.
PS4 Pro Devkit was made available only three months before release.
Rumor: Playstation 4 Neo Devkit Now Available For Purchase for Developers
Rumors have begun to circulate that the Playstation 4 Neo devkit is now becoming available for purchase. The rumor started after word began to circulate
August 12, 2016:
Dev kit to Test kit is a matter of months. Codemasters has had the Dev Kit for months already. For NEO, Dev Kit 2 is already "Final Spec".
Negotiator
Member
Interesting observation!
Team #EUV #DoubleDigitTF is still strong.
And there's also this:
It's going to be a semi-custom design (as always), not off-the-shelf (like Tegra X1 on Nintendo Switch). Sony/MS aren't cheapskates. They pay billions to AMD for a reason.
bitbydeath
Member
That chart was only speculative and placed there for reference material to suit
I’m predicting it’ll land anywhere between 11-13TF because the numbers make sense for a 5700XT successor which is already known to not handle RT. I don’t believe that graph is accounting for the changes from 7nm to 7nm+.
Where would they find the space on Navi10 to fit Ray Tracing? It’s not designed to handle it and would need a complete revamp which is what RDNA2 is all about.
Testing in Windows vs Linux would provide different outcomes.
TeamGhobad
Banned
if we get navi 12 gpus they will be extremely lite versions best case scenario.
bitbydeath
Member
Yes, 4 months to launch vs your predicted 24 months isn’t in the same ballpark. You know it launched in 2016 right?
CrustyBritches
Gold Member
Stop being obtuse again. This is your own made up argument.
My statement was:
Your own fucking link shows my "Within 3 months they were at Test Kit 2". They went from confirmed Dev Kits in August to Test Kit in October. Codemasters has the Dev Kits since August, just like your link had them August. By your own link, how long will it be until they get Test Kit?
bitbydeath
Member
So you admit the PS5 devkit isn’t final?
There are obviously large changes afoot.
It is strange you admit to the rumoured Prospero on one hand but deny it’s rumoured power on the other.
CrustyBritches
Gold Member
Sony's own NEO document says Dev Kit 2 is already "Final Spec". I know you didn't read it, just like you didn't read your own leaks that state the time period between Dev Kit and Test Kit is under 3 months.
Prospero is the Playstation 5 console codename, not the SoC name. My claim is that by Sony's own NEO Overview, Dev Kit 2 is "Final Spec", and Test Kit comes in under 3 months. DF stated they are "99% certain Gonzalo is silicon going into PS5".
Your claim for time to radically alter SoC over the next year has no precedent. Minor clock changes are expected. Hence, Oberon's 2GHz from 1.8GHz. That already happened months ago.
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bitbydeath
Member
Yes and your claim was that hardware was finalised early this year which is crazy. If RT was ready back then it would have been included in the 5700 from the get-go, they could have even launched the PS5 this year if that were true.
3 months out from launch for Neo being finalised is very different to a near two year timeframe that you suggest.
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ResilientBanana
Member
Large changes? Hell no, not this late in the game. It's tweak time.
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