The leaks that happened shortly before this teaser was basically this x2 number and everyone did the quick 12TF math. Phil hasn't confirmed anything regarding TFs.
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DJ12
Member
It's just the narrative people want to out forward. MS are a lot further along than those spreading the narrative want us to believe. Did hell blade look they'd only had a Dev kit for 6 weeks lol.
Saying devkits are only just sent out allows them to use the narrative ms aren't up to speed yet which is why the ps5 is faster.
No way are they making Phil a take home unit before they've satisfied dev orders.
pawel86ck
Banned
The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced Phil was talking about Navi TFLOPS, not GCN.
According to MS Xbox X was 4x faster than xbox one, yet we know in actual games it was more like 5x faster thanks to architecture optimizations. Many games run in 4x higher resolution (some even at 5x) with increased graphics fidelity at the same time.
So assuming Phil always talks about TF (no matter what architecture it is), then we can take 1.4TF (xbox one S) and multiply it by x8. It's 11.2 TF, so GPU with 12TF would mean exactly over 8 times faster than xbox one s, and exaxtly 2x faster than xbox x.
If people will take into account windows central leak (or even Klee confirmation on resetera) then there's really no valid reason to think Phil was talking about GCN TFLOPS. Also like I have said before, 12TF makes sense from a marketing perspective (2x more TFLOPS than xbox x). Enthusiasts of course will see there's a difference between GCN and Navi TFLOPS, but casual gamer may not, therefore 9TF Navi would upset many people, while 12x would be a good selling point. So I'm now 99% convinced XboXSeX is 12TF Navi, but of course I will wait for official confirmation before I will open the champagne.
One thing for sure... 8TF team lost
. I remember one guy in particular (I will not mention his name.... because I'm a kind person 
) who called me delusional because I was expecting 1080ti performance in a console. He also said PC games like Star Wars Fallen Order already shows next gen visuals, yet XboXSeX game Hellblade 2 looks clearly superior.
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Klee said last night 12tf of navi.
DJ12
Member
Where. Please quote the entire message....
Kleegamefan
Member
Yesterday at 12:10 AM
*wise fwom your gwave*
OMG where are all the Xbox insider evangelicals to clarify all this
NO it’s not GCN flops
YES it’s Navi flops
Xbox Series X performance is actually slightly ABOVE 12(Navi) TFs
Xbox (Anaconda) Series X eats monsters (Scorpio) for breakfast
The GCN architecture is HISTORY, y’all. MS/Sony only talk in terms of RDNA now
Ay Carumba
Now I’m actually leaving for sure.
I will return to talk about Next gen again after the PS5 reveal.
Buh-bye
Here is confirmation by him.
Kleegamefan
Member
Yesterday at 12:18 AM
No
Xbox Series X(holy fuck what a bad name) is Anaconda and has a bit over 12TF ( Navi) performance
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How can anyone still trust this guy is beyond me.
Lockhart? Wrong
Console TF? In August, he said to keep expectation in check as TF in Navi are not the same as GCN, so it wont tell whole story. Now they are higher then anyones wildest dreams (after other guys leaked it).
Stadia? Lol
ResilientBanana
Member
/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/19526624/xboxseriesx.jpg)
We literally dont know about the TF or Lockhart so how can he be wrong?.
DJ12
Member
And who said the 12 TFs he's confirming. It's unlikely any Dev had fed him a tflops number so I guess he's just going with the crowd on that one.
Navi at 12 tflops is far better than 2 x X one x.
It cannot be both 2x and 12 tf.
Tqaulity
Member
Lol....i love the meltdown and back and forth in this thread. For the many skeptics here who had no real basis but just refused to believe the next gen consoles could hit a ~12TFLOP GPU target, i got to say I told you so (since the Spring of this year - check my history). But more recently:
Now for folks still finding a way to be skeptical and fudge the numbers please stop. I know it keeps the internet forums buzzing and keeps the forums active but there is nothing to see here folks. Series X is in fact ~12TFLOPS (it may not be 12 even but very close). As I pointed out earlier, the marketing of "2x Xbox One X" sounds nice and makes a good target. The "8x the Xbox One" also is a nice marketing tag, and is in fact true: 1.5TFLOPS x 8 = 12 TFLOPS. No coincidence there. Also, the industrial design and sheer size of the box clearly shows it's pushing some serious horsepower that requires some hefty cooling.
In that vein, the PS5 dev kits are also fairly large with a huge emphasis on cooling. I wouldn't expect PS5 to be too far off from where the Xbox Series X is (slightly more or slight less...i.e. between 11-13 TFLOPS).
I've been saying this since April when Sony first unveiled the PS5 that the GPUs in the both will likely end up around 12TFLOPS. For marketing reasons, it makes sense to at least say that the next boxes are 2x the graphical performance of the Xbox One X (even though we now all now that Navi is waaay more efficient so 12TFLOPS of Navi is likely ~16TFLOPS of Polaris). In terms of raw horsepower, we know that the next high end Navi cards from AMD is aiming to deliver 2080 Super level of performance as configured for PC. In typical console fashion, the cards will have to be paired down a bit for yields and power considerations so expect the consoles to be roughly based on the RX 5800 (or whatever it will be called) but with slightly less CU count and under-clocked when compared to the PC equivalent. With that said, we will still be looking at 2070 Super level perf at a minimum but more likely closer to RTX 2080 level (I would not be surprised if one console is slightly less powerful (i.e 2070 Super vs 2080 standard)). Yes, RTX 2080 level performance in a dedicated closed box console ?! Some amazing things to come! U R NOT E
But here's the breakdown for those that may be confused: The RTX 2080 is ~10TFLOPs by Nvidia's calculations. However, we can extrapolate what an AMD Navi based card with similar power will measure in terms of TFLOPs. How? Just look at the specs vs perf between the RX 5700 XT and the RTX 2070 Super/ RTX 2080. The 5700 XT is ~9.7TFLOPs out of the box so let's say 10TFLOPs with an overlock (same at RTX 2080). Yet, according the the perf benchmarks at sites like TechPowerUp, the RX 2070 Super is ~10% faster than the RX 5700XT (assuming a slight overclock to reach the 10 TFLOPs i.e. the Anniversary edition). Meanwhile the RTX 2080 is roughly 20% faster despite having the same TFLOPS measurement. So that means that AMD's Navi architecture is still roughly 20% less efficient than Nvidia's Turing. Thus, for AMD Navi to reach the 10TFLOPs perf of an RTX 2080, the Navi card will need to be roughly ~12TFLOPs (10TFLOPs + (10*0.2)).
Coincidence!?? I think NOTAs someone who has worked with PC hardware, software, and games professionally for over 10 years, I assure you it's not rocket science
Now for folks still finding a way to be skeptical and fudge the numbers please stop. I know it keeps the internet forums buzzing and keeps the forums active but there is nothing to see here folks. Series X is in fact ~12TFLOPS (it may not be 12 even but very close). As I pointed out earlier, the marketing of "2x Xbox One X" sounds nice and makes a good target. The "8x the Xbox One" also is a nice marketing tag, and is in fact true: 1.5TFLOPS x 8 = 12 TFLOPS. No coincidence there. Also, the industrial design and sheer size of the box clearly shows it's pushing some serious horsepower that requires some hefty cooling.
In that vein, the PS5 dev kits are also fairly large with a huge emphasis on cooling. I wouldn't expect PS5 to be too far off from where the Xbox Series X is (slightly more or slight less...i.e. between 11-13 TFLOPS).
Computer
Member
I dont know why everyone one is saying Series X is only 2 times One X.
According to the verge
Phil Spencer, promises that it will “deliver four times the processing power of Xbox One X in the most quiet and efficient way.”
We will need to install a 240v circuit breaker in the house to power it.
/cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/19526256/xboxseriesxconsole.jpg)
www.theverge.com
According to the verge
Phil Spencer, promises that it will “deliver four times the processing power of Xbox One X in the most quiet and efficient way.”
We will need to install a 240v circuit breaker in the house to power it.
Microsoft’s next Xbox is Xbox Series X, coming holiday 2020
Microsoft’s trailer provides a brief glimpse at the new Xbox’s design.
www.theverge.com
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Little Chicken
Member
Bold to say XSX is a new benchmark in speed and performance, guess people will have to start reigning in their expectations for PS5.
I'd imagine they're fairly closely aligned in terms of overall power, in any case.
Just hope Sony ditch the toilet seat design for the retail build.
I'd imagine they're fairly closely aligned in terms of overall power, in any case.
Just hope Sony ditch the toilet seat design for the retail build.
Von Hugh
Member
I dont know why everyone one is saying Series X is only 2 times One X.
According to the verge
Phil Spencer, promises that it will “deliver four times the processing power of Xbox One X in the most quiet and efficient way.”
We will need to install a 240v circuit breaker in the house to power it.
Microsoft’s next Xbox is Xbox Series X, coming holiday 2020
Microsoft’s trailer provides a brief glimpse at the new Xbox’s design.
Same article:
"So when we do the math, we’re over eight times the GPU power of the Xbox One, and two times what an Xbox One X is."
Two times of GPU power.
Dory16
Banned
The speculation is that internal studios got the kits much earlier than the thrird parties.
Phil admitted on stage yesterday that studios around the world are at work on the Series X.
I'll also add that it's unlikely Phil stepped out first saying "a new benchmark for performance" if the rumours about Scarlett being less powerful were true. He speaks to all sorts of devs under anonymity and I'm sure he knows what the PS5 has by now.
Its about 4x CPU and twice raw gpu.I dont know why everyone one is saying Series X is only 2 times One X.
According to the verge
Phil Spencer, promises that it will “deliver four times the processing power of Xbox One X in the most quiet and efficient way.”
We will need to install a 240v circuit breaker in the house to power it.
Microsoft’s next Xbox is Xbox Series X, coming holiday 2020
Microsoft’s trailer provides a brief glimpse at the new Xbox’s design.
Tqaulity
Member
Now on a separate note, am I the only one who hates the design? Granted I haven't seen it in person, but just a plain black box that looks like a PC tower? Consoles typically have the liberty to think outside the box (pun intended) to come up with designs that look like nothing else you'd find in your living room. This doesn't look like anything special or different and it's size says that A) Japan is once again going to avoid Xbox like the plague and B) it will look even more ugly laying horizontal as it is just so thick (thicker than any other console, set top box, or disc player as far as I can tell).
Gave me vibes of the Xfinity cable modem:
From the early glimpse of the PS5 dev kit, I'm definitely more excited about what Sony comes up with in terms of design. But again that's Sony's advantage being the hardware company. They've often been able to squeeze way more hardware in a more elegant form factor (i.e. PS2 vs Xbox OG and X360 external power brick vs PS3 all integrated etc). Micirosoft has been stepping it up this gen with the Xbox One S and X but this feels like a revert to the old.
I also think it's interested that not only is the naming using the "series" moniker implying that there will be other series but by using 'X" again it will definitely confuse people between this and the Xbox One X. Not to mention that the design and color scheme matches the Xbox One X making the series X just look like a different version of the Xbox One X. I already have people on my social media channels say they think that this is just a "refresh" of the Xbox One X...hmmm. We'll see how it sticks going forward.
Gave me vibes of the Xfinity cable modem:
From the early glimpse of the PS5 dev kit, I'm definitely more excited about what Sony comes up with in terms of design. But again that's Sony's advantage being the hardware company. They've often been able to squeeze way more hardware in a more elegant form factor (i.e. PS2 vs Xbox OG and X360 external power brick vs PS3 all integrated etc). Micirosoft has been stepping it up this gen with the Xbox One S and X but this feels like a revert to the old.
I also think it's interested that not only is the naming using the "series" moniker implying that there will be other series but by using 'X" again it will definitely confuse people between this and the Xbox One X. Not to mention that the design and color scheme matches the Xbox One X making the series X just look like a different version of the Xbox One X. I already have people on my social media channels say they think that this is just a "refresh" of the Xbox One X...hmmm. We'll see how it sticks going forward.
ANIMAL1975
Member
So, let me see if I got this right... Until now, until THIS day, whenever a leak throwed a 12, 13, or 14tf number for ps5 devkits it was obviously GCN and downgraded to the correct and believable RDNA numbers. Now that Phil says Scarlett is twice as powerful as XoneX, the math changes and we straight doble the GCN 6tf number to 12tf RDNA... OK 
Fake edit: Oh, and Phil is most certainly simplifying things for the casuals, he knows that 12tf RDNA is more than twice the power of the OneX GPU, but he wants to make it simple and only claims twice the power. That's what sells new hardware right? Keeping your message straight and simple to the masses,... not more power.
Fake edit: Oh, and Phil is most certainly simplifying things for the casuals, he knows that 12tf RDNA is more than twice the power of the OneX GPU, but he wants to make it simple and only claims twice the power. That's what sells new hardware right? Keeping your message straight and simple to the masses,... not more power.
DJ12
Member
No no no sir, quite the contrary, he can say it sets a new benchmark as ps5 is still unannounced/revealed, revealing first confirms they wanted their hour in the spotlight and they are expecting to be gazumped.
Where was the world most powerful console they have previously used?
If I was the first person ever to run 101 meter race I would set a new benchmark the fact Usain bolt could walk it quicker wouldn't change that statement.
You are reading far to much in statements that are ambiguous for a reason. You can take it as fact that as they are no talks of being the most powerful console ever made that ms know that they aren't.
The difference will be a couple of FPS in ps5s favour so it's no big deal, but it's 100% the case and what Phil has said has confirmed it.
Gamernyc78
Banned
Speculation? Thts how this is every gen internal studios get dev kits before third parties. It was asanine and ridiculous for ppl to say no one had dev kits to fit a narrative bcus ps5 dev kits were also in the wild and ppl said it was stronger, certain fanboys hated to hear that.
We know there is Lockhart, all right. I mean, Jason confirmed it (alongside MS guys). There is a reason why X is called "Series". There will be "S".
Yap, although he was clear at E3 back in 2016 that they are aiming to be most powerful console (after documentation for Pro leaked actually).
Concetrating so much on performance and power would ne weird if in few weeks PS5 ends up better.
Its PR talk until they released obviously.
Andodalf
Banned
Couldn’t this just be a really nice cube map for the sake of a vertical slice, like the Spider-Man Puddle room controversy? Not saying it’s not RT, but RT of that quality at 4K 60 seems to really push the 2080, so the PS5 killing it so early would be pretty surprising
LordOfChaos
Member
So, let me see if I got this right... Until now, until THIS day, whenever a leak throwed a 12, 13, or 14tf number for ps5 devkits it was obviously GCN and downgraded to the correct and believable RDNA numbers. Now that Phil says Scarlett is twice as powerful as XoneX, the math changes and we straight doble the GCN 6tf number to 12tf RDNA... OK
Fake edit: Oh, and Phil is most certainly simplifying things for the casuals, he knows that 12tf RDNA is more than twice the power of the OneX GPU, but he wants to make it simple and only claims twice the power. That's what sells new hardware right? Keeping your message straight and simple to the masses,... not more power.
To be clear, no one but Tom Warren said 12, and Tom seems to have extrapolated that from Phil saying twice as powerful as X. Think we jumped the gun on that in excitement yesterday.
12Tflops on RDNA would be 2.5-3x as powerful as X (senior). I'm gonna guess it's around 10 paper Tflops, which would bring it to 2x as powerful.
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Dory16
Banned
If the rumours are true and ps5 dev kits are stronger, then PS5 has a glorious opportunity to claim back the "most powerful console ever made" title that they jumped on with the PS4. They could have claimed it in any of the Wired articles they have released or they could have hinted at it in a tweet or any other channel. They have not because either they're not sure or it's not true and they could be found out. If devs knew it for a fact, Sony would too.
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pawel86ck
Banned
I think Phil just understand GPU with 12TF power means always 12TF no matter with architecture. Of course more efficient architecture can do the same task faster, but that's not what casuals will think about..So, let me see if I got this right... Until now, until THIS day, whenever a leak throwed a 12, 13, or 14tf number for ps5 devkits it was obviously GCN and downgraded to the correct and believable RDNA numbers. Now that Phil says Scarlett is twice as powerful as XoneX, the math changes and we straight doble the GCN 6tf number to 12tf RDNA... OK
Fake edit: Oh, and Phil is most certainly simplifying things for the casuals, he knows that 12tf RDNA is more than twice the power of the OneX GPU, but he wants to make it simple and only claims twice the power. That's what sells new hardware right? Keeping your message straight and simple to the masses,... not more power.
We can use cars analogy here. 100km/h is always 100km/h no matter what car it's, and the same can be said about TFLOPS. However certain cars will accelerate and turn faster, therefore will finish the race quicker.
XboXSeX is 12TF (RDNA 1.5-2 because VRS was mentioned, and that's something first gen Navi dont support) and there's no reason to think windows central leak wasnt accurate.
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Gamernyc78
Banned
No one knows anything for sure and no one will till official unveiling. Tht goes without saying.
Knock this stuff off.
For the rest of the thread:
One last time.
I personally am going to be extra vigilant in this thread going forward. You see any "bait posts" or attempted derails into petty console wars, I will remove all parties involved, and depending on the posts it can go days, to weeks, to perm.
Report those posts, and move on. Civil back and forth is to be expected when comparing specs, but don't turn OT's into your personal pissing grounds.
Dory16
Banned
Funny how you are only using one side of the argument because the other side helps you less. You're saying that the Series X must be the less powerful console because Phil hasn't claimed outright that it was the most powerful one. Yet you also somehow absolve Sony for not having claimed the same thing in their multiple Wired articles or at the same game awards.
Are you assuming that Phil knows the PS5 specs but Sony's bosses don't know the Series X specs? Because every time Sony knew they had the most powerful console in the past, they made it pretty much their slogan in every ad.
The only fair conclusion given the information available is that both companies still have the possibilities to tune up specs and obtain an advantage over the other at the last minute and for that reason, both prefer to remain conservative when declaring perfomance at this stage. Time will tell.
CameFromNearFuture
Banned
No one is talking aboit the First original xsx presentation in wich we can already see a sample of some games including a football game. No spefulation about It since people are giving excluisve Focus on HELLBLADE game.
Im pretty sure this short clip aré showing games that Will be repased on day one. Obviously games have been under development for seres X so the Idea that its dev kits were Just given to developers a week Ago and no one had any real idea of true nextbox specs sounds bullshit to me,
Im pretty sure this short clip aré showing games that Will be repased on day one. Obviously games have been under development for seres X so the Idea that its dev kits were Just given to developers a week Ago and no one had any real idea of true nextbox specs sounds bullshit to me,
The Mad Draklor
Member
If you don't know what Feral Interactive is, they're known for making Linux ports and pushing the Vulkan API. They are also responsible for the really good Alien Isolation Switch port.
TeamGhobad
Banned
Can someone post sauce where Phil said the console is 8x more powerful than the Xbox One S?
DJ12
Member
So why did you state otherwise then. It's you that choice to go against evidence and leaked info to proclaim ms the most powerful console based on your wet dreams. Now faced with a reasonable argument you've changed your tune.
Theres little point arguing with someone like you so I will take your flip-flop as a victory and move on.
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LordOfChaos
Member
It's blocked at work so I can't confirm, but Tom was citing this:
Xbox Series X Exclusive Details: Meet Microsoft's Next-Gen Console
Microsoft has unveiled the next-gen Xbox formerly known as Project Scarlett, and it's unlike any console we've seen before.
www.gamespot.com
So all he said was 8x and 2x as powerful, I think it was a leap to assume 12Tflops
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Fake
Member
With still very powerful.
LordOfChaos
Member
Oh no denying, I'm just in it for accuracy, I hate it when authors don't do their DD and mislead half of everyone for entire generations, i.e FP16 Switch numbers going around compared to FP32 everything else.
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Dabaus
Banned
My initial impression about the xbox announcing their new console at the vgas just seems like xbox is a side show console to me now. Like this is the type of thing a startup company like ouya or the fabled steam machine would do. They just had xo a few weeks ago, why not announce it there? And the name is ridiculous, its like wii U levels of dumb.
Fake
Member
Agree. Mislead was strong in the other forum.
TeamGhobad
Banned
Dory16
Banned
If you still haven't understood that there is no "evidence" of anything at this stage, I will gladly let you claim victory with your concussion. Given your overall rhetorical skills, I'm not even sure I'm the one who inflicted it to you. Nature seems to have been harsh. Good day.
sonomamashine
Member
I did mentioned several times before that it would surely be a cylinder design box, better cooling.
Nope.
All in engine is not same as in real time gameplay, keep that in mind.
-concerning the 12Tf rumor, all i have to say is wait and see, might be 12 Tf GCN, the general consumer are not tech savvy and don't follow tech news, to avoid some misunderstanding it is wise to keep the old gen TF count.
If it's not confirmed by Microsoft themselfs (12Tf Navi) don't take it as a confirmation by anyone other than them.
DJ12
Member
Don't attempt to take the high ground when it's you that attempted to claim the Xbox was more powerful based on evidence that definitely isn't there. Unlike the other argument when Devs with both devkits are saying one is more powerful than the other which corresponds with other leaks.
You got called out on your bs and instantly changed your mind.
You do follow this process don't you? To clarify for the hard of thinking. You said Xbox was obviously more powerful given Phil's ambiguous comments indicating that isn't actually the case, then changed tact to say theirs no evidence either way when there is, you just don't like what it tells you.
CameFromNearFuture
Banned
I also think an exclusive big dedicantes event for the console reveal is much better for a First official annoucement, like Playstation Meeting,l. Its Far, Far better than an event with devided attentions with every other Company.
The hype build up is way bigger and theres a Lot more space and time to with 100 Focus on what the platform can bring.
The whole Sony is fucked but because MS started It First is absooute shit talk tbh.
Even If MS have an exclusive event, the new Xbox is no longer a New thing, so Sony actually have a Lot more hype and expectations to build up Until then.
Mass Shift
Member
Phil's choice of words are interesting.
"the fastest and the the most powerful"
It appears he really wanted make sure he threaded both needles with that comment .
"the fastest and the the most powerful"
It appears he really wanted make sure he threaded both needles with that comment .
ResilientBanana
Member
Microsoft already confirmed Navi months ago.
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