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Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Console tEch threaD

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xacto

Member

Nikana

Go Go Neo Rangers!
If games for PS5 and PS3 cost the same ($60) then games would actually be less expensive than ever before. Its not sustainable or realistic to never raise prices. Its been 14 years. Find any other industry that doesn't raise prices for over a decade.

The sticker price is the same but the investment is not. The tail of games requires more investment of the consumer. If publishers and devs were really hurting as much as they want us to think why are they not raising the prices across the board and on PC?

This notion that games are more expensive to make is very true but they have found other sources of revenue that people are using.
 
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BWIGGS

Neo Member
No Doubt about it this is a MASSIVE win for Xbox.. However I still think the overall quality of storytelling and presentation goes to PlayStation Exclusives. We will have to see what Starfield and ES6 brings of course BUT for now I am very happy with Sony's current line up and strategy even while losing Bethesda games.
 

Vae_Victis

Banned


Seriously though, this is uncharted territory. Bethesda are a massive publisher, to have all of their games Day 1 on GP is such a massive boost in trying to grow that service. The value proposition on Xbox overall is so hilariously one-sided, especially in lieu of Sony hiking the price and in turn fucking over their biggest market i.e. Europe with €79.99 titles.

Folks are also under-selling the impact it'll have on overall industry, this is not necessarily restricted to console wars. If Microsoft are being this aggressive, it's only natural they'll regain some of that market share from Sony. But, in overall scheme of things, it's a massive push in trying to legitimatize subscription and may result into massive publisher acquisitions akin to this such as Square, Capcom, From, CDPR and host of other publishers. Especially, with Google, Apple, and Amazon looking to invest big in gaming industry.

A massive reason as to why PS4 sold 100m+ is down to 3rd party impact, it was the de facto choice for your every big 3rd party title and had exclusivity deals with almost all major publishers. With GamePass being such a huge disruptor to traditional business model, how will the masses react having to pay $69.99 to play these games on other platform? When they could play them for $10 a month? And in certain select cities in US, without even any investment via xCloud? I already see impact of Game Pass among hardcore Xbox fans, they are reluctant to buy games at full price and wait for them to hit Game Pass in future, or just drop extremely cheap in price before they purchase. How will casuals react when they come to realization of this huge value proposition which Xbox have? And how will it affect their other gaming purchase? These are all legitimate questions which are associated with an acquisition like this, which is trying to legitimize and push subscription model for gaming. Next-gen is going to be a fascinating watch as it develops.

Also in light of this news, I hope this "anti-consumer" non-sense is done for good, and I don't have to ever hear it from anyone on gaming forums.

The current Game Pass economic model simply makes no sense from a business standpoint. Which means it's just a phase artificially kept up by Microsoft to gather users, and at some point the rules of the game are going to change.

Game Pass ultimate is $180/y. If even just 4 AAA games will be added to the service at release over one year, it means the publishers are collectively letting go of more than $200 of launch revenue per user. Sure, in most cases Game Pass will have a larger install base than the expected sales for a single game, but it's not just those games on the service, it's more than 100 in total, a lot of which could have sold for $60 at launch, or would still sell for $30-$40 now.

Bottom line is, if you just took the revenue from Game Pass and split it for all the games that have been in the service, a good number of them would have done so at a loss. The numbers don't add up. It's also simple common sense that if entering Game Pass were advantageous for publishers compared to just selling games in the traditional way, basically everybody at this point would have done so. Yet Microsoft has to chase down individual deals, and even buy entire billion-dollars publishers to secure products on the service.

Why? Because Microsoft is footing the bill for the time being with the knowledge that even though the service is not profitable right now, once it reaches a critical enough mass of users it could easily become so if they just tweak a couple of factors: direct money in (price of the subscription), money out (development costs), and more focus on sources of revenue irrespective of an initial sale to the consumer (microtransactions). I don't know which one of these will give first, or if a combination of all of them, but it's simply economically impossible for the current price/offer to remain untouched going forward.

As long as Microsoft did this with their own bunch of first party and the odd third party AAA here and there, it didn't really matter. But if they start really pushing for this, basically using their pre-existing incalculable amount of money to force the conversion or outright kick out those who would have maintained a traditional game sales and ownership model, in the long term the end result could very easily be a complete shift in paradigm for the worse for the user (if they succeed), or a titanic industry crash (if they fail).
 
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Now that's a solid move! Although I don't play any of those, but those titles are loved by many.
I thoroughly enjoyed Doom & Prey quite a bit .The Elder Scrolls has been a sinking ship for me. No game in that franchise will ever come close to Dagerfall let alone Morrowind for me. Played V for a 4-5 hours then got bored of it. Dishonored was great with the first entry ,the 2nd one? Not so much. Bethesda follows the same model Microsoft is currently interested in pursuing. GaaS. The two companies are the perfect fit for each other.
The acquisition will shake the industry and make the Series X a bit more appealing as a console, i don't think it will make a dent on playstation and its market share though. Microsoft buys more devs for the sake of buying them, Sony sees the talent and that's what they're after but what Xbox hasn't yet realised is that this is war and they inadvertently started it, what comes next? Time will tell, perhaps Sony might even decide to go after KadokawaCorp(FromSoft) or even CDPR. Will they though? We'll see, Microsoft is giving Playstation ideas, i don't think they'll like what comes next.​
 

Orky

Banned


I also have to agree on that. Why would Bethesda still publish there new games?


According to his bio:

„PlayStation (Sacred Symbols) and nostalgia (KnockBack) podcaster.“

It’s just wishful thinking. Not going to happen. All games will be PC/XBOX exclusive. Maybe some small games will come to switch, because Nintendo is not really a competition to MS.
 

kyliethicc

Member
The sticker price is the same but the investment is not. The tail of games requires more investment of the consumer. If publishers and devs were really hurting as much as they want us to think why are they not raising the prices across the board and on PC?

This notion that games are more expensive to make is very true but they have found other sources of revenue that people are using.
I just don't buy this idea that any product should remain the same price for 15+ years and not even keep up with inflation.

I don't see any issue with $70 games, games in the 90s cost way more than today. Let the market speak. Will be interesting to see how it goes.

Netflix would never keep it price flat for 14 years, neither would Toyota or Amazon. Costs rise, prices rise. Thats life.
 

IntentionalPun

Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole


I also have to agree on that. Why would Bethesda still publish there new games?


I think he's reading too much into a comment Bethesda made.

For the time being Bethesda will publish the games they are already in the process of publishing. Hell this purchase won't finalize until possibly mid next year even....

The long term future of their publishing is absolutely not going to be some independent entity. That would be nonsense.
 

kyliethicc

Member
Is Colin just guessing? How does he know? Because all we get from Bethesda is PR doublespeak.

According to his bio:

„PlayStation (Sacred Symbols) and nostalgia (KnockBack) podcaster.“

It’s just wishful thinking. Not going to happen. All games will be PC/XBOX exclusive. Maybe some small games will come to switch, because Nintendo is not really a competition to MS.
He is obvious just guessing, but hes not just a fanboy. His predictions are fairly mixed, he gets plenty wrong. I'd assume Xbox will want to lock them off PS5.
 
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edotlee

Member
Personally, I'd like to see Sony just keep doing what they're doing and acquire studios that fit their philosophy like Bluepoint and Housemarque and just continue building up Sony Studios. Also, it wouldn't hurt to acquire defunct IPs from Konami like MGS, Castlevania, etc.
 
I think he's reading too much into a comment Bethesda made.

For the time being Bethesda will publish the games they are already in the process of publishing. Hell this purchase won't finalize until possibly mid next year even....

The long term future of their publishing is absolutely not going to be some independent entity. That would be nonsense.
In this point doesn't matter even if you release a game in PS5 you will have it in gamepass for a ridiculous price so
this is a win - win for Xbox.

About when the gamepass will give real income to Xbox is another story.
 


I also have to agree on that. Why would Bethesda still publish their new games?


because their brand name has power. The main thing is MS gets the money from those sales.

They know they won’t get 100 percent conversion, but the pitch will be pay $70 over there or get them here as part of gamepass with these 300 other games.
It’s a compelling pitch.
 

Nikana

Go Go Neo Rangers!
I just don't buy this idea that any product should remain the same price for 15+ years and not even keep up with inflation.

I don't see any issue with $70 games, games in the 90s cost way more than today. Let the market speak. Will be interesting to see how it goes.

Netflix would never keep it price flat for 14 years, neither would Toyota or Amazon. Costs rise, prices rise. Thats life.

I dont think prices shouldn't go up either but again they have found ways to get more money on the back end where as something like Netflix doesn't have that option.

I simply see their lack of consistency as the issue. If COD was truly more expensive to make why are they not pushing that to PC users?
 
Bethesda buy out doesn't change much at all in the near term. When Elder Scrolls releases in 2023, it'll be on PS still as has been intimated. If not, we're years away from that game. Same for Fallout, which is even further away, likely end of the new gen. Those are the big ones.

Also, those pumping their fists in the air with this news need to be careful what they wish for. This could lead to MS/Sony entering into a full blown arms race and Sony retaliating with buying Capcom or Square.
 

Faithless83

Banned
I mean I listen to his PS podcast(s) and have for 10 years, but he also gets plenty of his predictions wrong. Vita would succeed, Switch would fail, etc. He is just guessing.
You gave bad examples. This is a huge deal and it's generating a lot of buzz. Details of it behind the scenes are for sure being shared along.

IMHO its just math. You can't spent millions to produce a game like doom, Fallout, ES and just put it on a $10/mo service day one.
It's a bad business strategy, no matter the angle. Games are costing 70$ and I see that MS is trying hard to increase Gamepass value, but the return from it is not amazing, far from it. PS Now with a lot less subscribers provides Sony more money.

They said that Xbox main competitor is Stadia and they don't care much about hardware sales. Gamepass is their future and this moves proves it.

How sustainable it will be in the long run is what worries me. I have a preference, but in no way I wan't Xbox to go away. Companies do nasty things if they go unchecked and unchallenged (See Disney for reference).
 

kyliethicc

Member
I dont think prices shouldn't go up either but again they have found ways to get more money on the back end where as something like Netflix doesn't have that option.

I simply see their lack of consistency as the issue. If COD was truly more expensive to make why are they not pushing that to PC users?
Prices on PC vs console, idk. Could imply they think if they raise the price, it won't sell as well. Or could indicate the next gen console version is better? Doubtful.

Prices are not just based on cost, its just what a business values their product on the market at.

If people don't want to buy it, then don't. Send the sellers a message, etc.

(I suspect the games will still sell plenty regardless and these companies will keep making bank.)
 

kyliethicc

Member
You gave bad examples. This is a huge deal and it's generating a lot of buzz. Details of it behind the scenes are for sure being shared along.

IMHO its just math. You can't spent millions to produce a game like doom, Fallout, ES and just put it on a $10/mo service day one.
It's a bad business strategy, no matter the angle. Games are costing 70$ and I see that MS is trying hard to increase Gamepass value, but the return from it is not amazing, far from it. PS Now with a lot less subscribers provides Sony more money.

They said that Xbox main competitor is Stadia and they don't care much about hardware sales. Gamepass is their future and this moves proves it.

How sustainable it will be in the long run is what worries me. I have a preference, but in no way I wan't Xbox to go away. Companies do nasty things if they go unchecked and unchallenged (See Disney for reference).
I doubt he has inside info on this deal. He doesn't have many connections left with game publishers, devs, media, etc.
 
D

Deleted member 775630

Unconfirmed Member
You gave bad examples. This is a huge deal and it's generating a lot of buzz. Details of it behind the scenes are for sure being shared along.

IMHO its just math. You can't spent millions to produce a game like doom, Fallout, ES and just put it on a $10/mo service day one.
It's a bad business strategy, no matter the angle. Games are costing 70$ and I see that MS is trying hard to increase Gamepass value, but the return from it is not amazing, far from it. PS Now with a lot less subscribers provides Sony more money.

They said that Xbox main competitor is Stadia and they don't care much about hardware sales. Gamepass is their future and this moves proves it.

How sustainable it will be in the long run is what worries me. I have a preference, but in no way I wan't Xbox to go away. Companies do nasty things if they go unchecked and unchallenged (See Disney for reference).
In 5 months they went from 10 million to 15 million game pass users. If they keep growing like this, game pass will be very very profitable, and thus also sustainable
 
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3liteDragon

Member
Lol this is what’s literally trending on Twitter for me.

arMmrv0.jpg
 
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Nikana

Go Go Neo Rangers!
Prices on PC vs console, idk. Could imply they think if they raise the price, it won't sell as well. Or could indicate the next gen console version is better? Doubtful.

Prices are not just based on cost, its just what a business values their product on the market at.

If people don't want to buy it, then don't. Send the sellers a message, etc.

(I suspect the games will still sell plenty regardless and these companies will keep making bank.)

Whichi is exactly why the don't "need" to raise the price. They are still making profit. If they are raising the price on one platform and not another then thats a clear sign to me they dont "need" to raise them.
 

icerock

Member
100 percent this As the prices are rising for the consumer they will look elsewhere to try and save money and keep their hobby going without the need to break the bank.

Personally the rise in $70 games doesn't make sense to me as its not across the board for all publishers such as CoD from Activision and Godfall from Gearbox.

Disagree, the price rise was long in the making with them being stable for 2 generations now. Game dev cost have shot through the roof, $10 hike isn't the problem. The problem is lack of regional pricing, some markets are going to get fucked over for no reason. And with value on offer on other platform, Sony run the risk of reduced revenue if more and more of these games are available via a subscription. But, my over-arching point was more about the impact on gaming industry as a whole, rather than Sonys wallet getting little bit lighter. With race to acquisition for these publishers, it's only a matter of time before the gaming space is flooded with different subscription models.

Which brings me to my next point, the trouble with gaming subscription model has always been two-fold, where does it leave your lesser known indie to AA games which are not on any subscription? Will folks pay $19.99-59.99 to play these games? Just look at TV/movie space, how many folks do you think use cable these days? Or even go to theaters to watch your lesser known movies? How many folks even buy these content physically/digitally? I can't even recall how many subscription services I currently pay for, it's close to double figures already for TV/Movie consumption alone.

If subscription model gains foothold in this medium (which it will, its inevitable with other corporations looking to invest). It'll change the spending habit of your consumers, the prestige titles/IPs/AAAs stuff will continue to sell well. But, anything not belonging to that category or not on a sub service is dead in the water. Also, the talk about sustainability is valid, your mega-corporations who have been in the business long enough (like Microsoft) will be willing to write the losses for a long time before it turns profitable But, newer players in the ilk of Google, Amazon, Apple won't be as patient if the trajectory of growth doesn't align with their expectations. If it's a sunk cost, it'll be a write off and all those publishers/devs working those banner are just gone.

The current Game Pass economic model simply makes no sense from a business standpoint. Which means it's just a phase artificially kept up by Microsoft to gather users, and at some point the rules of the game are going to change.

Game Pass ultimate is $180/y. If even just 4 AAA games will be added to the service at release over one year, it means the publishers are collectively letting go of more than $200 of launch revenue per user. Sure, in most cases Game Pass will have a larger install base than the expected sales for a single game, but it's not just those games on the service, it's more than 100 in total, a lot of which could have sold for $60 at launch, or would still sell for $30-$40 now.

Bottom line is, if you just took the revenue from Game Pass and split it for all the games that have been in the service, a good number of them would have done so at a loss. The numbers don't add up. It's also simple common sense that if entering Game Pass were advantageous for publishers compared to just selling games in the traditional way, basically everybody at this point would have done so. Yet Microsoft has to chase down individual deals, and even buy entire billion-dollars publishers to secure products on the service.

Why? Because Microsoft is footing the bill for the time being with the knowledge that even though the service is not profitable right now, once it reaches a critical enough mass of users it could easily become so if they just tweak a couple of factors: direct money in (price of the subscription), money out (development costs), and more focus on sources of revenue irrespective of an initial sale to the consumer (microtransactions). I don't know which one of these will give first, or if a combination of all of them, but it's simply economically impossible for the current price/offer to remain untouched going forward.

As long as Microsoft did this with their own bunch of first party and the odd third party AAA here and there, it didn't really matter. But if they start really pushing for this, basically using their pre-existing incalculable amount of money to force the conversion or outright kick out those who would have maintained a traditional game sales and ownership model, in the long term the end result could very easily be a complete shift in paradigm for the worse for the user (if they succeed), or a titanic industry crash (if they fail).

No subscription model makes sense economically, until it hits the point where the user base is large enough to break even, or where a couple of dollars in price rise will return in a profit. MS have accounted for all of this years ago, and their growth rate is fantastic, the subscribers went up from 10 million to 15 million in space of less than 6 months. They aren't spending $7.5 Billion on Zenimax, if estimates aren't tracking accordingly. The overall growth of Game Pass is only going to trend upwards as they start to hammer home the value of it with next-gen around the corner.

2022 is where you'll really start to see the service hits it stride when MS studios starting churning out those games on a regular basis, 23 studios are a lot to fill out content on Game Pass with regularity. If they have 50 million users by mid-gen, assuming the price of sub remains the same at $10 (which it won't), they'll generate $6 Billion in revenue every year. The biggest plus of a subscription model is that, once the users are locked in, that stream of revenue is extremely stable. You won't have the ebbs and flows every quarter which you see with current traditional model, if there is a huge void between big releases. Most users will stick through some of those "lull" months, if there's promising content in the future.

The worry with subscription based future is not so much as MS pulling the rug, but more so newer players doing it.
 
NPD game analyst Mat Piscatella says the price tag of $70 will not prevent sales of games for next-generation consoles

 
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