mitchman
Gold Member
This is too far fetched to be considered evidence. Sony is huge in camera technology but this doesn't mean Unreal is licensing Atom View, that's a bit of a jump based on very little information.
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HoofHearted
Member
While I agree there's a general main target/demographic for the XGPU service - I wouldn't necessarily or summarily dismiss the available value here for "core" gamers ...
For quite a while now (and as far as I know it's still available/active) - there's currently significant value transitioning to XGPU if you're willing to spend a little money up front by taking advantage of the XBLG->XGPU 3 year sign up process (in my case - saved me nearly $400). EA Play (and possibly Ubisoft) extend/enhance the value...
That being said - I think that many "core" gamers will actively sign up and utilize the service based on their respective backlog and upcoming games they're interested in and make decisions based on timing/delivery of games with respect to the GaaS... this especially holds true for any "core" gamer that invests in and plays on multiple platform(s).
XGPU provides extensive flexibility with respect to how to target and play games moving forward - and - IMHO - certainly will become a factor moving forward.
Considering the fact that both the PS5 and XSX (or, alternatively, if you have PC) are all extremely close in graphical output to-date - It already has changed the way I will choose which platform and where play games moving forward.
Example (in my particular use case):
For PS5 -
- Obviously I'll continue to play non-timed console exclusive games (GoW, HD, GoT, etc.), as well as my current list of backlog PS4 games and/or new games being made available via PS+ for 2021.
- I'll play current/new games made available via XGPU (and EA Play) - (Control, Gears 5, Madden 20/21, SW:Squadrons, SWJ:FO)
- Depending on timing and where I'm at in my active backlog - I'll just adjust when I plan to play any upcoming non-timed (Halo:Infinite, Perfect Dark, etc.) and timed (Deathloop, Ghostwire) console exclusives provided via XGPU.
- If Ubisoft joins XGPU - this simply extends my backlog - based on what's actively in my queue.
- Add to this - there are ABSOLUTELY various games added to XGPU that I've never played before and I find myself going back to try out and play (Ori, etc.)
- My most recent example - just traded in Spider-Man:MM for Cyberpunk on XSX because I was able to get it for cheaper on XSX ($17 - might as well give it a play through and check out the bugs...
).
I'm sure many will still go out and buy the latest release game at launch.. however, for many (including myself) - having XGPU available certainly changes the way I purchase and play games...
I fully expect by the time the "next" generation releases - GaaS will become the standard with respect to how games are distributed to the general market.
geordiemp
Member
I wondered whether Smart Shift was really Cerny's solution for running heavy SIMD instructions like AVX on the CPU.
Where MS provided two discrete CPU frequency modes, Cerny lowered clocks a tad and added smart shift to balance power distribution and keep everything in budget.
Does that sound reasonable?
P.S. I always enjoy reading your postsgeordiemp so thanks for your consistently informed and insightful contributions.
Yes it is reasonable, Cerny had to plan for unknown work loads, and lets face it I read intel chips process large AVX work loads at lower frequency setting. Maybe AMD do as well, I have not read up on AVX processing too much.
I guess Sony have to contemplate games that could run lots of CPU AVX loads and GPU stresses like furmark or a vicious GPU stress test and mitigate that also on the GPU side. But lets face it, you dont play Furmark games this is not game code, it is written to heat up silicon on purpose and all silicon is affected not just ps5.
Problem was that people like DF and many Xbox fan posts on GAF thought it was a likely event and Ps5 would loose GPU gaming performance which was laughable. We even had
Riky
post this a few pages back bless him.
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HoofHearted
Member
Meh - not saying what you're describing won't eventually be the case (though I think the breaking point for the general market would be $20/month) - by the time that happens - I'll just re-evaluate and possibly not renew XGPU - and go back to just buying individual games (assuming they're not $100+/game by that time) ...
Netflix is starting to bump up against $20 and I've been evaluating stopping it ... the only reason I haven't yet is because my kids currently watch it extensively and asked me not to because .. well "Dad" is paying for it..
Dibils2k
Member
if Gamepass gets all those publishers on board... going up to $50 a month subscription is hardly a terrible thing since a single game is still $60+!
ofcourse this is if new games are put on the service, not oldies
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Gudji
Member
No one will be paying 50 a month for a sub.
HoofHearted
Member
The reality is - we currently don't have enough supporting data (yet) to truly discern actual limits of either of these architectures/platforms.Yes it is reasonable, Cerny had to plan for unknown work loads, and lets face it I read intel chips process large AVX work loads at lower frequency setting. Maybe AMD do as well, I have not read up on AVX processing too much.
I guess Sony have to contemplate games that could run lots of CPU AVX loads and GPU stresses like furmark or a vicious GPU stress test and mitigate that also on the GPU side. But lets face it, you dont play Furmark games this is not game code, it is written to heat up silicon on purpose and all silicon is affected not just ps5.
Problem was that people like DF and many Xbox fan posts on GAF thought it was a likely event and Ps5 would loose GPU gaming performance which was laughable. We even had
Both platforms are extremely impressive for what they provide (albeit in entirely polar opposite approach) ... however, it's going to take awhile for games to come out that truly push the architecture/hardware to their limits.
MasterCornholio
Member
Pretty much where the confusion is. When Mark said "worst case game" he wasn't talking about your average title. And even then the downclocks can occur in a fraction of frame.
People need to stop looking at the variable clocks as a negative because it actually allows the PS5 to be more efficient which helps in games. I doubt Cerny would have chose them if they made the console inferior.
Bo_Hazem
Banned
It's tied to Sony CLED and Sony Venice, exclusive. And Sony doesn't give Atom View to 3rd party after their acquisition, it's more proprietary for Sony Pictures and probably Sony Interactive Entertainment for PS Studios as well.
So how would you integrate Sony's CLED and Venice camera in the production pipeline without Sony's licensing and lending hand? It's actually pretty exaggerating to suggest the opposite as this is the natural business concept.
Bo_Hazem
Banned
Well, that makes sense, thanks for the details. And of course there is no competition here as Sony has helped with VFX for Disney, Marvel, WB before with many things, and mostly with Imageworks previously.
Sony Pictures Imageworks | Sony Pictures Imageworks
Sony Pictures Imageworks is an Academy Award®-winning visual effects and animation studio known for photoreal live-action visual effects, dynamic creature and character animation and full-CG features. Having created visually stunning images for more than 100 live-action and animated productions...
www.imageworks.com
This is different than atom view data streaming, it's tied to the integration Sony CLED as a replacement of green screens with Sony Venice camera. It's been announced in CES 2020. That plugin been there in 2017 for other stuff, and could be as well not available anymore after Sony's acquisition in 2019 and adding them to Sony Innovations Studios + Sony Pictures division.
Bo_Hazem
Banned
On another note, why movies are too cheap to buy vs games? And don't they cost as much as AAA games and more? Of course, cinema, but I can't see them making as much money as video games do?
Why should games go up when movies cost as much or more, series as well, and cost usually less than games? Am I missing something?
Why should games go up when movies cost as much or more, series as well, and cost usually less than games? Am I missing something?
MasterCornholio
Member
Dabaus
Banned
Anybody?
assurdum
Banned
I need to ask what exactly makes think series X will outpace regularly the ps5 in performance in the future. Not to saying is impossible but what are the hardware advantage except the more CUs? If the bandwidth management was better it would be showed immediately and in every game.. You don't need of magical tools or more optimization if the bandwidth available is more. So then CUs. CUs gives some benefits but where are talking of the 40% of GPU. So PS4 pro should destroy the Xbox one X in CUs performance because it was 64 ROPs Vs 32 ROPs but obviously bandwidth wasn't enough so it didn't. My humble opinion? Game more scripted and "controllable" could perform better on series X for the more CUs and TF but game more open could be more problematic to hit the better performance on series X because it seems less flexible compared the ps5. Imho.
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Bo_Hazem
Banned
From where did you come up with that conclusion? It's solid in both and dips to 30fps during cutscenes in both. So it's a draw.
MasterCornholio
Member
The resolution dips a bit lower on the PS5 when compared to the XSX. It's in the description.
Bo_Hazem
Banned
Bo_Hazem
Banned
Good, so it's 16 vs 1 now. Finally, some competition.
Riky
$MSFT
Yes it is reasonable, Cerny had to plan for unknown work loads, and lets face it I read intel chips process large AVX work loads at lower frequency setting. Maybe AMD do as well, I have not read up on AVX processing too much.
I guess Sony have to contemplate games that could run lots of CPU AVX loads and GPU stresses like furmark or a vicious GPU stress test and mitigate that also on the GPU side. But lets face it, you dont play Furmark games this is not game code, it is written to heat up silicon on purpose and all silicon is affected not just ps5.
Problem was that people like DF and many Xbox fan posts on GAF thought it was a likely event and Ps5 would loose GPU gaming performance which was laughable. We even had
Rent free again
More lies, as I only posted a direct quote from Cerny himself.
MasterCornholio
Member
Rent free again
More lies, as I only posted a direct quote from Cerny himself.
So what's Mark Cerny really saying with that quote?
I read Road to PS5 again and it appears to be something that will rarely ever happen. As in nobody should be worried about variable clocks wrecking the performance of their games.
Unless I'm missing something
assurdum
Banned
Again a more scripted game. It's only me who noticed more linear games perform better on series X? The other one was DMC5.
MasterCornholio
Member
I honestly have no idea why that is. You would think that a more complex a game is the worse it will perform.
Maybe the 10GBs of ram?
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assurdum
Banned
Splitted bandwidth. And the RAM management of course, part of it.
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Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
You are missing the “concern” possibly. Not sure what else
.
MasterCornholio
Member
It does make sense because once they need more than 10GBs the bandwidth decreases for the rest of the ram.
Edit:
Riky
instead of resorting to emotes why don't you explain how that's wrong?
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assurdum
Banned
It's not just the 10 GBs limit. Every time cpu needs a 1 GB more, GPU bandwidth slowdown. It's all in the same bench. 2x GB per bench, a total of 8 benches. Now imagine an open world game, less predictable and controllable. I don't think the particular RAM configuration on series X can bet to be flexible, especially considered virtualization is another characteristic of the hardware.
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MasterCornholio
Member
You are missing the “concern” possibly. Not sure what else
I'm not seeing performance being a concern in PS5 games. Which is why I fail to see Cernys comment reflected in the games that were analyzed.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
I do not think there is cause of concern. Cerny was saying that first of all titles which would present a serious threat to go over the power budget are extremely unlikely especially early on as developers are rarely writing code that pushed both CPU and GPU at max utilisation AND used very power heavy instructions to boot (100% utilisation alone is possible without causing any issue whatsoever, it is the power consumed by the work being done that matters). Also that such perfect storm code (max utilisation of both CPU and GPU) would have likely caused an thermal issue on previous HW not just downclocking.
In addition to that, it is also not super likely to have both CPU and GPU needing max power at the same time so there are cases where you can transfer power budget to the GPU for example and have 0 impact on the performance needed by the game to reach its targets. I think the GPU can limit its clock if it has headroom available, but given Cerny’s smartshift example I think the priority is to let the GPU avoid under locking and transfer power usage allowance to it if needs it (imagine CPU and GPU can use 20 “power units” each, the GPU may be able to borrow allowance from the CPU and you may have a 10:30 utilisation for a short amount of time... smartshift is very fast at doing that). Both CPU and GPU clocks are kept as low as they need to be to ensure lowest power consumption possible without impacting performance (I am sure developers can give hints through API to help ensure power management does not impact performance of critical code).
LiquidRex
Member
What about Epic acquiring RAD Gaming Tools including Oodle Kraken, isn't this another link between Sony and Epic.Yes, Atom View plugin was available on UE4 and Unity, but this tech is different. It's first been shown in CES 2020 and if you watched the video you'll know that the Mandalorian is one of the very first series/movies to ever use this tech. It has nothing to do with Atom Streaming / Nanite narrative, but shows further collaboration outside gaming.
And yes, Nurulize came with polygon/voxel streaming in 2017, Sony bought them in 2019, Nanite is coming in late 2021 or early 2022 and announced in 2020.
Epic reveals how it's been working with Sony for years on Unreal Engine 5
Sweeney talks to Edge about the new next-gen enginewww.gamesradar.com
PS5 loading times are so fast, Epic had to rework Unreal Engine 5
Feel the need for SSD speed with PS5www.techradar.com
And when did Sony started working on PS5? 2015.
So as much as you wanna discredit Sony, as much there are evidence suggests otherwise. Don't you think?
onesvenus
Member
Yes, Epic, which is one of the biggest middleware providers, buying RAD, which is another big middleware provider which does things that really complement Unreal Engine, is a link between Sony and Epic.
VisualFidelity
Member
geordiemp
Member
Rent free again
More lies, as I only posted a direct quote from Cerny himself.
Nothing wrong with Cerny quote, you do not and still dont understand the context of AVX and overloads and what Cerny meant - he was talikng hypertherically on things like AVX and furmark and also explained how a heat virus program would orderly shut down a ps5 or any other console or PC.
There is no power for you to win here, your just showing ignorance, which to be fair is not a critic of you as Richard did no better.
So whatever as I cant be bothered to explain it to you- believe whatever you want.
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Riky
$MSFT
Stop tagging me in your posts then, your obsession with me is a bit unnerving.
geordiemp
Member
You quoted the eurogamer article thinking ps5 would downclock ona game, so it was in response to your and DF poor attempt to comtemplate what Cerny meant. But to be fair, most journalists did no better
K
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Riky
$MSFT
geordiemp
Member
I didn't comment on it, just posted the quote, all the rest is in your head
Context, you know exactly why you posted that quote out of context, or did your mouse just accidently slip in its xbox fanboy moment ?
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geordiemp
Member
Not really, its a game from 2019 with a small patch changings settings still a ps4 and XB1 game.
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Great Hair
Banned
When is the Sony CES 2021 press conference?
Sony's press conference at CES 2021 will be held on Monday 11 January.- US West Coast: 14:00 PT
- US East Coast: 17:00 ET
- UK: 22:00 GMT
- Europe: 23:00 CET
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Riky
$MSFT
Somebody asked the question, I posted a quote from Cerny, that's the totality of it, everything else is your paranoia.
geordiemp
Member
Whatever, I am sure the Cerny interview by DF was just at your fingertips. That shark guy must of posted it 100 times.
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Dabaus
Banned
Thank you. At the very least we should get PS5 Sold through and maybe SIE's plans for 2021? I remember last year Jim Ryan showed off the ps5 logo and went through some sales data.
MasterCornholio
Member
So your saying that there can be a problem if a game uses more than 10GBs of that faster ram.
Thank you.
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Riky
you could tell me if I interpreted you wrong. No idea what the horny emote is supposed to mean.
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Bo_Hazem
Banned
That's like 99% Epic Games and 1% Sony. Sony is just a customer for Oodle Kraken, one of the early adopters. They helped exposing them to the media of course due to the PlayStation brand global awareness.
LivingD3AD
Member
Ratchet and Clank on PS5 literally looks better than CG movie 
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