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Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Console tEch threaD

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kyliethicc

Member
icerock beat me to it



Timestamped the relevant portion.

Must listen for those who parrot Series S won't impact next-gen development at all, or how you can scale down by just lowering resolutions and other effects.....


The dev's reaction when IGN guy mentions Series S ... says a lot lol

eBhLifR.gif
 
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icerock

Member
"Whatever you bring to next-gen (early on) is still, honestly, limited by the choices you made years ago for previous gen and it's not a very realistic thing, well remake everything from old game for next-gen, because you are literally taking the resources away from future games, building the engine and improving for the future. I mean the games that will come out, the stuff we are working on, like, man... the visual bar is going to be blown away. You only need to look at previous generations, like how can something like Modern Warfare (2019) look like that on Xbox One and PS4? And, we are going to have that same, on this current next-gen, like there is so much improvement to be made. We are barely scratching the surface" - Tomas Puha, Remedy

I remember a significant portion across both forum dwellers writing how visually, we are at very ceiling of what's possible on consoles. Couldn't be further from the truth, what we've seen thus far is largely games built for last-gen just pimped with higher quality assets and fancy settings. Even something like Demons Souls is relying on what the game looked like back in 09. I am so amped to see some ludicriously expensive games running on next-gen.

A good example is Forspoken (Project Athia), 1st and 2nd GIF is reveal from last year, the last from yesterday. The upgrade in visuals is pretty noticeable to me.


a1f00f6b609279e7bb8dc450716bda9591f887e3.gifv

2e381a1c25e75bb4aa467a0fea043b633cd602fb.gifv


 
You're talking about different things.

First, it's a guy from Remedy. His point of view is not universal. The Rockstar, Codemasters, etc. guys would say different points of view.

Second, BC is other story. Please, study about gen9aware.

Third, ESRAM was more difficult for Xbox One in 2013. Harder do have good optimization on game engines. In 2015 no one was talking about ESRAM anymore. They found the best optimization on game engines and it's ok. The Remedy guy was telling the same point about GDK. Xbox One was using XDK, other SDK. The new GDK, unifying PC, Xbox One X|S and Xbox Series X|S in same pipeline possibly demmands more code engine rewrite for Xbox next-gen consoles. With game engines completely rewritten in couple years, this subject will be done.

And his opinion about GDK is not universal. Wanna examples?

Read about this Dirt 5 interview, Source: https://news.xbox.com/en-us/2020/06/10/inside-xbox-series-x-optimized-dirt-5/

Q: What is it like developing on Xbox Series X?

A:
Transitioning development to a new console platform, like Xbox Series X, is usually very painful. You have to deal with new tools, new workflows, new ways of thinking.
This time around the team at Xbox brought me a new toolset called the Game Development Kit, which they already had up and running on Xbox One.
This meant that we could make the transition much earlier. In fact, we started doing the groundwork for Xbox Series X development long before we even received the hardware. This kind of thinking from Xbox allowed us to get a real head-start on next-gen development, so after receiving our early Xbox Series X hardware, we were up and running really quickly.
For me, the most important thing in making a videogame is the relationships. Working with Xbox, is a partnership – the team at Xbox is committed to helping us make a great videogame and they’ve shown that to me again and again. That means being open and honest about our experiences; what we’ve loved and perhaps even what we’ve found difficult in development has had meaningful, visible impact on the updates that I get for the tools for Series X. (Shout out to our development partner at Xbox, Richard Hackett! Thanks Rich!)
I’ve never worked on a console launch where, while we’re still months away from release, the tools have been this mature, this stable, this easy to work with.
Are you saying that gen9aware titles like Cyberpunk 2077 do or do not use the GDK? When a developer goes back to add 120 fps mode to an Xbox game like Warzone is that due to the GDK or not?

The comments from the Dirt 5 dev goes a long way to show MS seems to have good support for companies making Xbox games. That should be a major factor for success on the XSS going forward.
 

Shmunter

Member
Nonsense.

They have added dozens of new enhancements. It's utterly ridiculous to suggest that they were lazy and used PS4 Pro resolution settings while taking months to upgrade everything from higher quality textures, AF, Motion Blur, Screenspace reflections, higher LODs on distant objects, brand new water physics, brand new destruction and using the new PS5 APIs to drastically reduce loading times most other third party devs havent bothered to use.

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They went with checkerboarding because they must have thought it was the best way to do it. Adding checkerboarding is MORE work when compared to just running stuff in native 4k. Surely you know this.

You are trying mislead people into thinking that this is some kind of BC patch with very little effort put in when it couldnt be farther than the truth.
PS5 has the hardware for it, just like the pro did. They simply used it, especially since they already implemented it in pro.

And why the hell not. Reconstruct everything I say, leave resources for other things as primary focus. It will become more and more common and important.
 
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SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
This is rude. No need for personal attacks.

PS5 has the hardware for it, just like the pro did. They simply used it, especially since they already implemented it in pro.

And why the hell not. Reconstruct everything I say, leave resources for other things as primary focus. It will become more and more common and important.
I am a big fan of reconstruction but it has to be good. Thats not the case with marvel avengers as people can easily tell that its far lower resolution than native 4k without pixel counting.
 
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Are you saying that gen9aware titles like Cyberpunk 2077 do or do not use the GDK? When a developer goes back to add 120 fps mode to an Xbox game like Warzone is that due to the GDK or not?

The comments from the Dirt 5 dev goes a long way to show MS seems to have good support for companies making Xbox games. That should be a major factor for success on the XSS going forward.
Xbox BC games don't use GDK. But gen9aware is an easier way to Xbox One games get some enhanceds in next-gen consoles without native ports.

Control is a native port using GDK. There's no relation with BC mode. The point is, Control's devs had more work to adapt Northlight Engine to GDK.Maybe Dirt 5 devs had less work, because it's different game engines, different approaches.

In same way, Control Director said some challenges to port on Xbox Series S. Other studios with other engines can have different challenges.
 

Shmunter

Member
This is rude. No need for personal attacks.


I am a big fan of reconstruction but it has to be good. Thats not the case with marvel avengers as people can easily tell that its far lower resolution than native 4k without pixel counting.
The reconstruction looks perfectly fine. There are bugs with DOF distortion and lighting in the backgrounds which likely contributed, DF recons the devs are aware and fixing, will make it ship shape soon enough.
 

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
"Series S... *laughs*.... Well it's no different from previous gens, where the system with the lowest specs ends up dictating the things that you're gonna do, because you want it [the game] tu run on that system. It's not just like you lower resolution, you lower texture quality and off you go... No, it's nowhere near that simple [...]"
From the control dev interview.

I dont want to say I told you so but i told you so. Every person on era and gaf who pretended that it was just a matter of lowering resolution needs to admit they were wrong.

We are now going to have a gen held back by a 4 tflops console with 7.5 GB of RAM. 7-8 years of this. This was supposed to be the gen that had everything. Great GPUs, Great CPUs, lightning fast SSDs. No obvious bottlenecks. All ruined.

His words on making games for multiple platforms are even more troubling. More QA overhead, more engineering time, more expensive in general. We better hope Sony isnt making Sony studios develop PC versions of first party titles. simultaneously.
 

Shmunter

Member
From the control dev interview.

I dont want to say I told you so but i told you so. Every person on era and gaf who pretended that it was just a matter of lowering resolution needs to admit they were wrong.

We are now going to have a gen held back by a 4 tflops console with 7.5 GB of RAM. 7-8 years of this. This was supposed to be the gen that had everything. Great GPUs, Great CPUs, lightning fast SSDs. No obvious bottlenecks. All ruined.

His words on making games for multiple platforms are even more troubling. More QA overhead, more engineering time, more expensive in general. We better hope Sony isnt making Sony studios develop PC versions of first party titles. simultaneously.
Yeah it’s pretty fucking disgraceful. Ms really fucked the entire gen.

Of course with these sorts of things you can never prove ‘what could have been’. So we’ll all just be blindly subjected to it.

Sony hopefully pushes their single sku. But 3rd party will be less than it could.
 
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SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
Yeah it’s pretty fucking disgraceful. Ms really fucked the entire gen.

Of course with these sorts of things you can never prove ‘what could have been’. So we’ll all just be blindly subjected to it.

Sony hopefully pushes their single sku. But 3rd party will be less than it could.
Sony has a great opportunity here. Show everyone whats really possible on next gen consoles. No compromises. Just go all out. Target 1440p 30 fps like the UE5 demo and save 60 fps for mid gen refreshes in 2023.
 

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
From the control dev interview.

I dont want to say I told you so but i told you so. Every person on era and gaf who pretended that it was just a matter of lowering resolution needs to admit they were wrong.

We are now going to have a gen held back by a 4 tflops console with 7.5 GB of RAM. 7-8 years of this. This was supposed to be the gen that had everything. Great GPUs, Great CPUs, lightning fast SSDs. No obvious bottlenecks. All ruined.

His words on making games for multiple platforms are even more troubling. More QA overhead, more engineering time, more expensive in general. We better hope Sony isnt making Sony studios develop PC versions of first party titles. simultaneously.

This was something that was mentioned tons of times. The more HW you need to target the worse and costlier it is, especially when there is quite a gap in terms of performance and RAM (8 GB at “fast” speed and 2 GB at Xbox One level of RAM speed vs 16 GB of RAM at much higher speed, etc...).
 

Garani

Member
We are now going to have a gen held back by a 4 tflops console with 7.5 GB of RAM. 7-8 years of this. This was supposed to be the gen that had everything. Great GPUs, Great CPUs, lightning fast SSDs. No obvious bottlenecks. All ruined.

Just the XSX. Multiplat were never part of the picture, since they have to cater for PCs are well.

The only next-gen console that will have no constrains, will be the PS5 with 1st party games. Everything else will have to come to terms with PCs and XSS, if not with previous gen as well.
 

Venom Snake

Member
It's not even the same context. Goodness what a mongrel.

The "How you share your games on PS4" video was like lightning in a bottle, adequate to the time, place and generally speaking the mood of the next-gen-thirsty audience from that particular period. It cannot be recreated today, because the entire conversation about what we should expect from the next-generation has been shifted in a completely different direction. Who would even care?

Sometimes i get the impression that social-media, which in theory create a link between big and small, parodoxically tend to elevate some individuals to heights, from which the field of view begins to dominate over the perception of detail.
 

jroc74

Phone reception is more important to me than human rights
From the control dev interview.

I dont want to say I told you so but i told you so. Every person on era and gaf who pretended that it was just a matter of lowering resolution needs to admit they were wrong.

We are now going to have a gen held back by a 4 tflops console with 7.5 GB of RAM. 7-8 years of this. This was supposed to be the gen that had everything. Great GPUs, Great CPUs, lightning fast SSDs. No obvious bottlenecks. All ruined.

His words on making games for multiple platforms are even more troubling. More QA overhead, more engineering time, more expensive in general. We better hope Sony isnt making Sony studios develop PC versions of first party titles. simultaneously.

Yup, the threads about this were....wild, lol. Even tho he said it will be better once the cross gen period is over....that still leaves the XSS as the lowest target for console games. Its the mid gen refresh situation all over again, just from launch.
Yeah it’s pretty fucking disgraceful. Ms really fucked the entire gen.

Of course with these sorts of things you can never prove ‘what could have been’. So we’ll all just be blindly subjected to it.

Sony hopefully pushes their single sku. But 3rd party will be less than it could.
I think its gonna be more like this:
Just the XSX. Multiplat were never part of the picture, since they have to cater for PCs are well.

The only next-gen console that will have no constrains, will be the PS5 with 1st party games. Everything else will have to come to terms with PCs and XSS, if not with previous gen as well.

Agree.

Maybe we see more 3rd party exclusives for PS5? Both Sony and MS usually have some 3rd party exclusives anyway.
 
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SSfox

Member
I remember a significant portion across both forum dwellers writing how visually, we are at very ceiling of what's possible on consoles. Couldn't be further from the truth, what we've seen thus far is largely games built for last-gen just pimped with higher quality assets and fancy settings. Even something like Demons Souls is relying on what the game looked like back in 09. I am so amped to see some ludicriously expensive games running on next-gen.

A good example is Forspoken (Project Athia), 1st and 2nd GIF is reveal from last year, the last from yesterday. The upgrade in visuals is pretty noticeable to me.


a1f00f6b609279e7bb8dc450716bda9591f887e3.gifv

2e381a1c25e75bb4aa467a0fea043b633cd602fb.gifv


There aren't many next gen games now that can't run on old gen tbh, but that's def not the case for this game. This game screams SSD, we're starting having a look on what next gen will bring that wasn't possible before.
 
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That ultimately is what's going to prove the theory. If the PS5 does something that we don't see on the XSX then it might be the XSS that's holding the XSX back. Unfortunately it might be a while to see of that's proven correct.
I'm looking forward to seeing how this theory works out. The bar has been set that PS5 games will be undoubtedly the best looking games this generation. The XSS will now hold back both PC and XSX games. What game should we use as the standard that other games have to live up to?
 

sncvsrtoip

Member
I am a big fan of reconstruction but it has to be good. Thats not the case with marvel avengers as people can easily tell that its far lower resolution than native 4k without pixel counting.
generally checkerboard reconstruction is not very good imho, dynamic resolution in valhalla gives definitely sharper results than for example cb 1440p in demon souls or death stranding
 
Well that's due to the bar they set last generation. Sony has produced some pretty amazing looking games in the past. I don't see how that isn't possible with the PS5 unless there's something seriously wrong with the system.
It's all subjective. The consoles are simply a canvas that the developers use to create their art. One person might think The Last of Us is the best looking game someone else may say Gears 5. There really isn't a right answer.
 

assurdum

Banned
This is rude. No need for personal attacks.


I am a big fan of reconstruction but it has to be good. Thats not the case with marvel avengers as people can easily tell that its far lower resolution than native 4k without pixel counting.
It's not good because I bet all my money ElAnalist taken the worst scenarios possible with probably the lowest res possible (the jungle level seems the more demanding) and zoomed on it. I looked another area from the same video with captain America as main character and it wasn't absolutely that bad at all on ps5. I would wait to see a serious comparison before express a final judgement because this guy is full of shit when the Xbox is involved in his face off and this game has crazy demanding stuff on 60 FPS too, as higher res particles and explosion. Now we have to see how will end on Xbox because isn't exactly a master of fillrate compared the ps5, adding native res framebuffer, we will see how optimal can be FPS there.
 
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freefornow

Member
icerock beat me to it



The dev's reaction when IGN guy mentions Series S ... says a lot lol

eBhLifR.gif
Guy works for Remedy, but is he an actual hands on developer?? His bio claims that he is a Finnish communications marketing professional and former game journalist working in the gaming industry . Since July 2015, Puha has worked as the communications manager of the Finnish gaming house Remedy Entertainment

Just wondering how involved he is with the day to day SDK/XDK/GDK side of things.
 
It's all subjective. The consoles are simply a canvas that the developers use to create their art. One person might think The Last of Us is the best looking game someone else may say Gears 5. There really isn't a right answer.

Not really some parts of visuals are objective though. It's why games from the SNES era pale in comparison to what we have today. You seriously can't say that The Last of Us Part 2 doesn't look better than Uncharted for example.
 
Not really some parts of visuals are objective though. It's why games from the SNES era pale in comparison to what we have today. You seriously can't say that The Last of Us Part 2 doesn't look better than Uncharted for example.
For games that come from the same time period it is subjective. If you are comparing Mario Bros. 3 and Mario Odyssey yeah I could see that being objectively true. But again someone could think Breath of the Wild looks better than something like Outriders. Artistry matters.
 
For games that come from the same time period it is subjective. If you are comparing Mario Bros. 3 and Mario Odyssey yeah I could see that being objectively true. But again someone could think Breath of the Wild looks better than something like Outriders. Artistry matters.

No offense but on a technical level Outriders had better visuals.

c0344d4a-62a2-4d01-97f6-1ae4bc9187f8_Outriders-13.jpg

5cd1d314021b4c069060cfc4


Breath of the Wild looks like a last gen game to me.
 
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