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[ethomaz]

Holy shit. This is performance per watt.

Dude what are you doing? Are you for real right now?

Ohhhhh facepalm... I was reading the wrong chart lol
Thanks.

 

[Ellery]

PC Performance =/= Console Performance. Too many discrepancies to compare. I have a 1080 currently but I can almost guarentee the conoles will perform better due to optimization, extra bandwidth, less limitations, and more memory.

Yes I know. We are discussing discrete graphics cards right now though and that doesn't change anything related to relative difference between GPUs, because we can't factor in developer talent and architectural API differences for console.

Obviously God of War on the 1.8 TFLOP PS4 looks amazing, better than most PC games on my 5.5 TFLOPS AMD r9 290X

 

[Fake]

PC Performance =/= Console Performance. Too many discrepancies to compare. I have a 1080 currently but I can almost guarentee the conoles will perform better due to optimization, extra bandwidth, less limitations, and more memory.

Game benchmarks are little useless in the console market. Dunno why bringing up.

Holy shit. This is performance per watt.

Dude what are you doing? Are you for real right now?

He is not so wrong you know. Those benchmark are from PC, they don't actually translate to the console market.

 

[Ellery]

He is not wrong you know. Those benchmark are from PC, they don't actually translate to the console market.

I think maybe you should re-read exactly what I wrote so far today about graphics cards. I think we are talking about 2 different things here.

I don't know how any of this relates to consoles right now. I didn't even say anything about what GPU is in the console.

It will be a custom Navi based chip. I have no idea how many CUs or what clockspeeds

 

[ethomaz]

He is not wrong you know. Those benchmark are from PC, they don't actually translate to the console market.

I wans't trying to estimate optimizations for consoles... just overall PC graphics performance.
I did get the wrong graphs

 

[Fake]

I think maybe you should re-read exactly what I wrote so far today about graphics cards. I think we are talking about 2 different things here.

I don't know how any of this relates to consoles right now. I didn't even say anything about what GPU is in the console.

Its the subject of the thread, but I understand. Sry.

I wans't trying to estimate optimizations for consoles... just overall PC graphics performance.
I did get the wrong graphs

I get, but again those pc vs pc/console comparisons are silly. They never translate to the console. I even posted a Digital Foundry video talking exactly that.

 

[ethomaz]

Some Zen 2 six cores benchmarked leaked.

 

[Ellery]

I am so happy when we finally get to see real world gaming benchmarks for Ryzen 3000 from third party reviewers.
Not a big fan of all the synthetic stuff, but the R5 3600(X) compared to the Intel i7 8700K is going to be very interesting.

 

[Fake]

Its nextbox having 8 core as well?

 

[ethomaz]

Its nextbox having 8 core as well?

Probably but nobody knows yet.

 

[Insane Metal]

Some Zen 2 six cores benchmarked leaked.

Can you post a comparison with an Intel equivalent CPU? Please?

EDIT

Nevermind, here it is agains the 8600K and beating it: https://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Intel-Core-i5-8600K-vs-AMD-Ryzen-5-3600-6-Core/3941vsm810675

And against the 9600K it gets 1% behind https://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Intel-Core-i5-9600K-vs-AMD-Ryzen-5-3600-6-Core/4031vsm810675

Nicely done, AMD.

 

[ResilientBanana]

Some Zen 2 six cores benchmarked leaked.

It still doesn't exceed the performance of my i7-8700k, but it's close.

UserBenchmark: AMD Ryzen 5 3600 vs Intel Core i7-8700K

cpu.userbenchmark.com

 

[Fake]

Probably but nobody knows yet.

Its hard to discuss about nextbox without any stuff. Those results are good btw.

It still doesn't exceed the performance of my i7-8700k, but it's close.

UserBenchmark: AMD Ryzen 5 3600 vs Intel Core i7-8700K

cpu.userbenchmark.com

Better than I expected.

 

[LordOfChaos]

I find the HBM + ddr4 rumor to be weird. Wouldnt that require 2 separate controllers on board which would increase price and use more space?

Fun fact, the PS4 already has (at least) two memory controllers on board. There's 256MB DDR3 attached to the ARM coprocessor.

Heck it's exactly what the Pro did too more directly, the extra 1GB of DDR3 freeing up more of the GDDR5. The tiny amount of silicon needed for the MC is evidently worth it over all of the OS memory needlessly being faster GDDR.

 

[ethomaz]

Can you post a comparison with an Intel equivalent CPU? Please?

It is a bit harder but something between:

A bit better than i5 9600k: https://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/AMD-Ryzen-5-3600-6-Core-vs-Intel-Core-i5-9600K/m810675vs4031
A bit worst than i7 8700k: https://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/AMD-Ryzen-5-3600-6-Core-vs-Intel-Core-i7-8700K/m810675vs3937

All of them 6-cores.

 

[Insane Metal]

BTW these were benched on X470 motherboards right? Is it possible that the results would improve on newer mbs?

 

[ethomaz]

BTW these were benched on X470 motherboards right? Is it possible that the results would improve on newer mbs?

Yeap, Asus PRIME X470-PRO.
X570 support faster DDR4 so it should improve performance.

 

[Negotiator]

Fun fact, the PS4 already has (at least) two memory controllers on board. There's 256MB DDR3 attached to the ARM coprocessor.

Heck it's exactly what the Pro did too more directly, the extra 1GB of DDR3 freeing up more of the GDDR5. The tiny amount of silicon needed for the MC is evidently worth it over all of the OS memory needlessly being faster GDDR.

Not a fair comparison. You're talking about 2 discrete chips (APU + southbridge), while the DDR4/HBM2 scenario refers to the APU having 2 different memory controllers.

Of course it's safe to expect a small amount (like 4GB) of (LP)DDR4 RAM in the southbridge for the OS needs.

 

[shark sandwich]

What did everyone truly expect for Navi 10? You aren't going to get a Wine tier GPU at Beer budget prices. The customizations on consoles is where they shine, more bandwidth and a wealth of GDDR6 is where they will get their edge. But to expect 2070 TI or better in performance was setting yourselves up for disappointment to begin with.

Radeon VII has by far the highest bandwidth ever for a GPU (1 Tb/s). That barely granted any performance boost over the Vega 64 with half the bandwidth.

If you’re counting on memory bandwidth on consoles to magically improve Navi’s performance then you are going to be disappointed.

 

[Fake]

If you’re counting on memory bandwidth on consoles to magically improve Navi’s performance then you are going to be disappointed.

Well, those SSD magically improve the loading time on PS5 dev kit. Its no use having technology if no one knows how to use it.

 

[LordOfChaos]

Not a fair comparison. You're talking about 2 discrete chips (APU + southbridge), while the DDR4/HBM2 scenario refers to the APU having 2 different memory controllers.

Of course it's safe to expect a small amount (like 4GB) of (LP)DDR4 RAM in the southbridge for the OS needs.

That's what I was referring to though. The PS4 Pro has 1GB DDR3 on the coprocessor and offloaded the RAM from the main pool with it. I'm assuming the PS5 would be set up in a similar way.

If the PS4 can offload OS memory to DDR on the ARM coprocessor/southbridge, why does the PS5 need to have both pools on the APU? If people are talking about a split pool of game memory that's not what I meant

 

[demigod]

It's complicated... don't even bother.

DF trying to double down on their 8TFlops.

 

[Fake]

DF trying to double down on their 8TFlops.

I think was a very bad guess from them.

 

[SonGoku]

If new SSD will have even 2-3GB/sec transfer rates 16GB RAM will be more than enough.

It will be serviceable but 24GB with a SSD and powerful CPU will be much better and allow never before seen experiences
16GB will be too limiting mid to end gen.

It's complicated... don't even bother.

lul i think they are just trolling at this point

 

[Ellery]

Why do you guys think they are trolling and what do you think they are trolling about?

 

[demigod]

lul i think they are just trolling at this point

I don't use twitter much but once the PS5 specs comes out, I'll log in to troll them!

 

[McHuj]

Why do you guys think they are trolling and what do you think they are trolling about?

Yeah, doesn't make any sense. They're just stating what the die size is and how that would fit into an SOC with an 8-core Ryzen.

 

[ethomaz]

Guys 1080-class is Vega 64 territory.

Vega 64 is 12.6 TFs.

It fits most leaks... I don't see any issue with DF comment.

 

[SonGoku]

If they can tolerate and manage the power consumption and cooling when using GDDR6 at similar bandwidth / throughput then they can save R&D budget and invest it somewhere else

I think HBM2 is too expensive, if HBM3 really is cheaper i could see Sony replacing the GDDR6 pool with HBM3 for cost reductions

So if we take the Vega 20 7nm size... half should about 170 mm² that tells us that at 255 mm² Navi 10 has way more CUs than 36.
Peharps Navi 10 is a 48 CUs chip.

does it scale linearly like that? don't other components besides CU take around 60% of die space so adding more CUs wouldn't change area drastically, besides Navi CUs supposed to be smaller right?

Guys 1080-class is Vega 64 territory.
Vega 64 is 12.6 TFs.
It fits most leaks.

Die size doesn't fit, a 40CU or (48CU) GPU would be barely an increment over 40 CU Pro or 44CU X at 7nm.

 

[ethomaz]

does it scale linearly like that? don't other components besides CU take around 60% of die space so adding more CUs wouldn't change area drastically, besides Navi CUs supposed to be smaller right?

Yeap it is not linear plus Vega CUs has FP64 units that are not present on Polaris and probably won't be on Navi 10 making it bigger.

Even so I believe 48CUs fits the increase over Polaris 36CUs maintaining the similar size.

It is a estimate after all.

 

[demigod]

Guys 1080-class is Vega 64 territory.

Vega 64 is 12.6 TFs.

It fits most leaks... I don't see any issue with DF comment.

We know that, but they're saying 1080 gtx instead of Vega 64.

 

[SonGoku]

Yeap it is not linear plus Vega CUs has FP64 units that are not present on Polaris and probably won't be on Navi 10 making it bigger.
Even so I believe 48CUs fits the increase over Polaris 36CUs maintaining the similar size.
It is a estimate after all.

Yeah i doubt this chip is bigger than 48CUs but i don't think its the one it will land on consoles. It makes no sense for a console to push clocks to make up for low CUs and dramatically increase power consumption when there is plenty of room to fit 72CUs even on a console sized APU on 7nm.

 

[ethomaz]

We know that, but they're saying 1080 gtx instead of Vega 64.

nVidia is the performance reference in PC market... not AMD.
You are making the reference reach more gamers than comparing with an AMD card.

 

[SonGoku]

Yes, there will be a virgin console(Lockhart) at an affordable price, and then the Chad version(anaconda).

fixd

 

[ethomaz]

Yeah i doubt this chip is bigger than 48CUs but i don't think its the one it will land on consoles. It makes no sense for a console to push clocks to make up for low CUs and dramatically increase power consumption when there is plenty of room to fit 72CUs even on a console sized APU on 7nm.

Yesp console APUs can have customized number of CUs.
BTW at time PS5 launch AMD will have the Navi 20 with more CUs fighting the high-end market too.

It is just that Navi this year will have that lower CU count... it is aimed to mainstream/mid-end after all.

 

[demigod]

nVidia is the performance reference in PC market... not AMD.
You are making the reference reach more gamers than comparing with an AMD card.

You keep stating the obvious, just wait until I troll them.

 

[SonGoku]

Yesp console APUs can have customized number of CUs.
BTW at time PS5 launch AMD will have the Navi 20 with more CUs fighting the high-end market too.

It is just that Navi this year will have that lower CU count.

Yeah that's why i said Richard i trolling not because of the gtx1080 bit but because of his disingenuous die size estimate for a console.

 

[Ellery]

But 320-360mm² is roughly what Xbox One, Xbox One X, PS4 and PS4 Pro fall into isn't it?

 

[xool]

Ohhhhh facepalm... I was reading the wrong chart lol
Thanks.

lol it happens. Less beer more coffee

 

[demigod]

Prices?

$499 Navi 10 XT
$399 Navi 10 Pro

That was what Sapphire leaked.

RTX 2070 that is the 1080-class performance is $499 too.

I'm coming back for you if that 2070 ends up as $399. I just can't see AMD pricing their card that's barely better than 2070 without raytracing at $499.

 

[Ellery]

I'm coming back for you if that 2070 ends up as $399. I just can't see AMD pricing their card that's barely better than 2070 without raytracing at $499.

Very much agree with that. I have absolutely zero brand loyalty and put in whatever I deem to be the best buy at the time I am buying, but a GTX 1080 performing RX5700 AMD Navi card for $499 would be DoA in my opinion.
Obviously I don't have all the information and actual specifications including VRAM, overclockability, features and power draw, but why would I consider a $499 card that performs around 2070/1080/Vega56/64 if I could just go instead with :

- RTX 2070 for the same price (actually 30€ cheaper) and has RayTracing cores
- Vega 56 which is sub $300 and can go as low as 230€
- Vega 64 which is sub $400
- Used GTX 1080 for like $300

But maybe those prices are wrong and the RX 5700 comes in with 16GB GDDR6 and costs $379 for RTX 2070 performance then it would be a much more attractive buy.

 

[McHuj]

Yeah that's why i said Richard i trolling not because of the gtx1080 bit but because of his disingenuous die size estimate for a console.

What's disingenuous about it?

 

[SonGoku]

What's disingenuous about it?

The chip he is talking about is likely 48CUs or less. There's no way consoles use such small chip at 7nm. They'll get a much better perf/watt ratio using a bigger chip.
For reference on 16nm:
Pro: 40CUs
X: 44CUs

But 320-360mm² is roughly what Xbox One, Xbox One X, PS4 and PS4 Pro fall into isn't it?

Correct but die size won't double or any sort by adding more CUs, other components take more space. Theoretically you could fit 90CUs on a 350mm2 APU, NOT that i expect that much.
The most likely escenario is 64CUs with 8 disabled (56 enabled) although 72CUs with 8 disabled (64 enabled) wouldn't be unrealistic either assuming RDNA breaks the 64CU limit.

 

[ResilientBanana]

Radeon VII has by far the highest bandwidth ever for a GPU (1 Tb/s). That barely granted any performance boost over the Vega 64 with half the bandwidth.

If you’re counting on memory bandwidth on consoles to magically improve Navi’s performance then you are going to be disappointed.

True, but that is still VEGA architecture with HBM2, isn't it? HBM2 is still slower than GDDR6 from what I've been reading. HBM3 coupled with NAVI is where we will see some performance gains at a lower cost. But I also don't have much experience speaking to the hardware side of things. But this is what I'm gathering.

 

[SonGoku]

HBM3 coupled with NAVI is where we will see some performance gains at a lower cost.

I doubt we'll see consoles going with any type of HBM memory come launch

HBM2 is still slower than GDDR6 from what I've been reading.

Its not..
HBM2 is more expensive though so you get less memory for the same price compared to GDDR6
Less memory=less stacks= smaller bus = lower bandwidth

 

[McHuj]

The chip he is talking about is likely 48CUs or less. There's no way consoles use such small chip at 7nm. They'll get a much better perf/watt ratio using a bigger chip.
For reference on 16nm:
Pro: 40CUs
X: 44CUs

Correct but die size won't double or any sort by adding more CUs, other components take more space. Theoretically you could fit 90CUs on a 350mm2 APU, NOT that i expect that much.
The most likely escenario is 64CUs with 8 disabled (56 enabled) although 72CUs with 8 disabled (64 enabled) wouldn't be unrealistic either assuming RDNA breaks the 64CU limit.

You really have clue what you're talking about, do you?

 

[SonGoku]

You really have clue what you're talking about, do you?

Is that supposed to be a pot shot?

 

[Fake]

lul i think they are just trolling at this point

Dunno if what they post on twitter account have relationship with resetera bs, but here it is.

 

[shark sandwich]

True, but that is still VEGA architecture with HBM2, isn't it? HBM2 is still slower than GDDR6 from what I've been reading. HBM3 coupled with NAVI is where we will see some performance gains at a lower cost. But I also don't have much experience speaking to the hardware side of things. But this is what I'm gathering.

The HBM2 that Radeon VII uses is by far the fastest memory configuration of any consumer GPU to date, and is almost certainly faster than what the next gen consoles will have.

I don’t know where you’re getting the idea that HBM3 is going to magically boost Navi performance through the roof while simultaneously lowering cost. Definitely gonna need a citation on that.

 

[SonGoku]

AMD Radeon RX 5000 är hybrid med inslag av GCN – "renodlad" RDNA först år 2020

Trots utfästelser om att Radeon RX 5000-serien baseras på en helt ny arkitektur blir det en hybrid mellan Radeon DNA och åldrande Graphics Core Next, i alla...

www.sweclockers.com

I'll give a basic summary of the article:
It says that they have been given information that a number of Navi parts are GCN based while others, like many of the ones AMD has decided to highlight, are RDNA.
Apparently there are a number of reasons why but the one they cite in the article is that modern games and engines have been optimized for GCN and they don't want to lose that and have to start from scratch.
And it is not until Navi 20 is released early next year that they will release "pure" RDNA to market and challenge NVIDIA in the highest performance range.

SweClockers is a long running site and they used to be really well respected and trusted back in the day but i haven't really kept up with them and don't know what their current reputation is like so i can't vouch for them.

Interesting! So in layman terms the first edition of Navi chips are the potato edition. Would also explain previous driver leaks with GCN traces.
Makes sense AMD is waiting for next gen PS5/SNEK games designed around the new arch to launch alongside them pure RDNA big Navi.