Fake
Member
Don't like the discussion? The door is up there.
I find it hilarious some people downplaying the thread and they're not even active members around here. You guys never posted here until that discord bs come.
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I find it hilarious some people downplaying the thread and they're not even active members around here. You guys never posted here until that discord bs come.
Imtjnotu
Member
Ptarmiganx2
Member
I don't think going the IO route will be considered screwing up. The worlds in Sony first party games are going to be massive. Once we see Horizon 2 and Days Gone 2, we will know why Sony chose the route they did. Third-party games will be mostly indistinguishable via the naked eye test, so having the "best" system on paper is irrelevant. Sony is moving the entire industry forward. Microsoft made a killer traditional box. They are each accomplishing what they intended to do. Sony's first-party game worlds will be the envy of the industry and hardware manufactures will begin marching in that direction.
James Sawyer Ford
Member
yes, even if there’s no cost savings on the APU size, if the additional transistors for I/O help them get a much greater effective bandwidth with less latency than its worth it as a sacrifice for 17% compute, in my view
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Gold Member
It depends. Going from no CPU cores for such tasks to 1/10 of a single core, you're still talking about a pretty small difference in that regard in real-world performance tasks. So if that's a comparison between PS5 and, say, general PCs or previous game consoles, the improvement is massive. If it's in comparison to the XSX, it's marginal at best.
Once we get more info on the SSD and flash memory controller/ I/O setups in both systems we can start getting to some super-solid conclusions. But it'll probably be a little while before that comes.
Moses85
Member
Yes, because PS5 will be delayed to 2025 due to corona and melting problems.
Just kidding.
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Gold Member
SonGoku
Member
Yeah i can see both approaches having their advantages, N7+ if it was part of their plans and price/availability is up to par. N7P if its cheaper and higher production volume with a "free" N6 upgrade in 2021/22 for cost reductions.N7P is DUV, N7+ EUV.
Bu tit's N6 compatibility, not N5, you are right.
N6
N6 is the EUV equivalent of N7. It is planned to use more EUV layers than N7+. It is both design rule and IP-compatible with N7 and is intended to be the main migration path for most customers. N7 designs may be taped out again on N6 leveraging EUV masks and the fidelity improvements or re-implemented to take advantage of the poly over diffusion edge (PODE) and continuous diffusion (CNOD) standard cell abutment rules which are said to provide an additional 18% density improvement. It’s worth highlighting that N6 is unique in that it will actually enter risk production early next year and ramp by the end of the year 2020. This means it will ramp after N5. For that reason, TSMC says that N6 builds on both N7+ and N5 EUV learnings.
TSMC Talks 7nm, 5nm, Yield, And Next-Gen 5G And HPC Packaging
An update on TSMC current and forthcoming logic process nodes as well as their next-generation advanced packaging technologies.fuse.wikichip.org
btw did you see coreteks claims about EUV based on Synopsis SRAM chips?
It would be amazing if a delay allowed them to upgrade memory configuration: 16Gbps for PS5 & upgrade the remaining 1GB chips to 2GB chips for SEXHell at this rate the systems could get delayed to 2021 tbh. I know they want to put on a good show of face things are full-steam ahead but with games getting delayed (big games, at that), better to brace for impact of system delaysMoses85 to 2021, just in case.
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Rim
Member
Sony fanboys also have a secret server there.
Not easy to join or leak
pasterpl
Member
i love these types of posts, lots of wishful thinking, same argument about Sony pushing the industry forward and ms just building a pc etc. funny.
Dabaus
Banned
Phil's playing the "good guy, i just want whats good for all gamers" schtick while him and the xbox team gives their blessing to the xbox fanatics on that list to do the dirty work. I get it, every platform holder has fans but this is all too coordinated to just be a random occurrence. Every time ANY PS5 News comes out some no name twitter account will pretend to have some inside scoop, the usual suspects pick up on, it finds its way to era where the mods protect the astroturfers, then to youtube. EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. This isnt random and its happens too frequently and often for this to just be "fanboys." This is microsfots next gen strategy, throw sand in the gears any time ps5 news comes up and with a little help from a few mods at era, a few digital foundry guys, windows central and twitter and youtube personalities. I also find it interesting how these guys dont care about specs, or resolution when it comes to switch, just playstation.
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SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
i was recently invited to a sony discord channel. i havent posted in there after saying hi, but i had no idea it was super secret. i was actually invited after heavily criticizing sony's marketing after cerny's awful presentation and decision to go narrow and fast. so i highly doubt they would invite someone that critical of the ps5 to a channel where they shit talk everyone, coordinate hacks and FUD campaigns, plant pastebins and mass report everyone to try and get them banned.
PaintTinJr
Member
If you believe that is wishful thinking, can I ask where you would place your own industry credentials in comparison with Mark Cerny – in the context of giving a technical talk about software or hardware at GDC?
I’m not saying you are wrong, but for a lot of technical people like myself that are outside of the industry we’d blindly back what Cerny has said... because like Carmack his history in the industry and contributions are beyond reproach from unknowns or Journo consumers at DF for obvious reasons.
Rim
Member
To be fair I'm not in that servet so I don't know.
I only know the sony server is more secret and they pick who gets to join.
icerock
Member
I can say for certain Dr Keo is not R600, one of my early conversations on here with R600 was about yields. Most of that stuff flew right past him, and many of the points which I made were also made by Keo over the other place.
I/O can't help bridge the raw compute gap, what it can do is improve efficiency to bridge some of the difference but not all. So, if Sony are spending similar amount making their APU as MS, then they have messed up the design.
That's a great story, they probably realized you were having a meltdown after Cerny crushed the 14TF HBM dream and don't actually mean ill-will
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Fake
Member
When I was on resetera, same week God of War 2018 was release and having fun with the hype boat, I was invited two times for getting on Sony discord.
The first time, I refuse using the excuse of not speaking 'native english', but after some days other guy send me an invite, insisting I should enter on Sony discord, this time when I refuse saying the last answer, he spoke on my language (brazilian portuguese) saying there more like me to enjoy there. Never answer back. Shame I can re-enter in my account because I never deleted my PMs.
With is a shame because I have some funny PMs, one for example, from ADM of resetera saying for not using the term 'JAP' when I was refering to japanese because is racist.
I found super strange because brazilian get so much terms like BR, Brbr, Brazuca, bra, hue, etc...
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ethomaz
Banned
When they migrate to ERA I was invited to a discord server but I did not know if it was a Sony related one... I believe I just unjoin after some time or I just stopped to use discord lol
But I never saw anything like the Xbox Discord level.
I mostly talked about Destiny there (due Destiny 2 near launch and most DestinyGAF being there too).
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SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
well in that case, im honored.
its just surprising that i got invited now when ive been shitting on sony left and right since the 10 tflops reveal, and not before that because ive been pretty open about my preference for sony for over two years in the next gen threads.
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Fake
Member
I know discord must have from both Nintendo, Sony and Microsoft. Would be silly not saying otherwise. Anw, Sony discord is real. If they're in the same level as those Xbox discord cancer, IDK. Probably if I could guess.
Rim
Member
I only know about that servet because I used to be on Reset official Sony server and that server was fucking dead.
And the mods would complain about it all the time about the secret server.
I guess they were upset that they couldn't control them.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
lmao. im surprised they didnt ban you on the spot. Jap is considered a racist term in the u.s. i was warned for saying oriental asians because i was talking about indian asians and well, the chinese, japanese and korean asians, and figured oriental asian would get the point across. i complained to the mod who warned me and he said some asian mods on the form actually wanted me banned and he stood up for me because my post was clearly pro asian/oriental.
its crazy how ban happy that forum is.
icerock
Member
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Gold Member
Memory is one of the "easiest" things to change with a delay so that would be beneficial to both. Ideally I wouldn't mind 16Gbps chips for PS5 and XSX, but it might be a bit harder for XSX since they need 2 extra chips per system, so it'd mean them paying more overall.
Technically speaking the PS5 memory controller supports 16Gbps chips going by the Oberon C0/E0 revision information, but it'd take the American side convincing the Japanese side to spend the money. If so they may also have to reconsider the cooling and power supply system too, to cover the extra heat faster chips would bring (or maybe they've already done this, but have gone with the cheaper option for now).
If both systems end up getting delayed it may also be possible for MS to increase the speed on their SSD some; the memory controller (if it's the Phison one info got around a while ago) is rated at 3.5 GB/s IIRC for raw sequential read speeds; they can maybe do something with the internal and external SSDs to saturate that more. I don't think they would strip out the flash memory controller, but they could tune up other aspects of it all the same.
Another part of all this is, people need to consider NAND memory work fundamentally differently to volatile memories like DDR and GDDR. If one system had HBM2 and the other GDDR6, doing like-for-like would be okay because one clearly has the edge over the other the only ways in which that'd change is if the lesser of the two was in more plentiful amounts (could help with framebuffer sizes, for example).
If the SSDs in the systems were using persistent memory I'd be a lot more on-board with the way some people are talking about them but that isn't the case. NAND reads at the page level (4096 bytes), and writes at the block level (anywhere between 32 to 64 pages, or 131,000+ bytes to 262,000+ bytes). Latencies are also magnitudes worst than volatile memories. Whereas something like GDDR6 can read at the page level, modify at the bit and byte level, and write at the byte level. Not to mention, specifically built for true random access.
Speaking of which that's one thing still worth learning about both systems: how good are their SSDs at random data access? The only numbers given so far are sequential, which is okay. But knowing the random access numbers would be better, even if just first access random access numbers. Also knowing the bandwidth (rather than just the speed) would be great for both.
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Fake
Member
I get quotes like living hell. People like 'er...maybe you should edit this' or 'enjoy your warn'. I swear I never heard of JAP being a racism term until I join resetera.
I guess because resetera was very soft in their first years. Anw, get a warn via PM, learn one or two things, life continue.
Sinthor
Gold Member
Never forget
Someone got BANNED on Resetera for THIS post? "Inflammatory?" WOW. I mean, not video game related, but still....BANNED?
James Sawyer Ford
Member
I can say for certain Dr Keo is not R600, one of my early conversations on here with R600 was about yields. Most of that stuff flew right past him, and many of the points which I made were also made by Keo over the other place.
I/O can't help bridge the raw compute gap, what it can do is improve efficiency to bridge some of the difference but not all. So, if Sony are spending similar amount making their APU as MS, then they have messed up the design.
That's a great story, they probably realized you were having a meltdown after Cerny crushed the 14TF HBM dream and don't actually mean ill-will
Sony’s goal with improved I/O may be less to do with compute, and more to do with detail and diversity of assets, and removing developer barriers and improving the user experience
James Sawyer Ford
Member
Over 50% of the country would be banned permanently on ERA
Sinthor
Gold Member
Ascend
Member
To be fair, Nintendo fans weren't bragging about how it will be more powerful than other consoles. Nintendo is basically its own market, sort of. They are the only company that still brings out handhelds that actually sell, and their consoles are always the weakest because they focus primarily on local family/friends gameplay rather than graphics.
In contrast, before either the next Xbox or PS was announced, there were already discussions about which one will be more powerful. Let's just say that it takes a special kind of mind to have a bias with literally zero official information. And of course, the ones that were right, now want to capitalize on it, since they were on the receiving end of not so friendly comments, even though both sides dished out.
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SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
Lol haha. im pretty pissed that the xbox era discord started this FUD campaign forcing me to put my attention elsewhere. they wouldnt even let me meltdown in peace.That's a great story, they probably realized you were having a meltdown after Cerny crushed the 14TF HBM dream and don't actually mean ill-will
what i dont understand is that they won. there is really nothing to gain from downplaying the ps5 even more. if anything, they are showing everyone how full of shit they are, and bringing all sony fans together.
i got into trouble with sony fans on era before the reveal because i said i would buy rather buy a 9.2 tflops $500 console than a $399 9.2 tflops console because that would indicate a more ambitious and expensive console instead of a purposefully gimped version. if the i/o increases the costs so much that its the same as a 52 cu die then as a stockholder (Which im no longer) i would be worried, but as a fan, I would be thrilled. That means Cerny chose that design on purpose. Not because a mandate came from above to create a $399 casual focused console.
The coretech video shows how important communication is, and cerny made sure to point out that the ssd wasnt the only thing that was a 100x faster, everything in the i/o is also 100x faster which should help the ps5 get more out of its tflops. maybe not enough to surpass it, but definitely close the gap while offering better loading times, better character models, more detail and draw distance elsewhere. its probably wishful thinking but there is a good chance ps5 games might end up looking better even if they dont have better resolution.
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Fake
Member
squarealex
Member
Really , I put the "540p" source to AI Topaz Gigapixel and this don't look like the 1080p one....
Stop fake Nvidia....
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
you cant be a trump supporter on era. i am no fan of trump but half of the people i know and interact with on a daily basis are trump supporters, if i started banning everyone from my life, i would be jobless, friendless and in total isolation. there is no way these people dont have parents or siblings that are trump supporters. half of the country voted for trump. if they started applying era logic to real life they wouldnt survive a day.
SlimySnake
Flashless at the Golden Globes
wow. thats amazing. i might boot up control and metro and try them again. metro was ok, but control looked blurry as fuck when using dlss.
farmerboy
Member
Shit like this is going to make way more difference than a 2tf difference between consoles, assuming of course that one uses it and the other does not. I think MS has already shown their hand on this, here's hoping Sony does too.
Is this an API or hardware thing?
Native will be a thing of the past, future screen resolutions will all have some reconstructive tech helping boost fidelity.
We had less than 2tf GCN. Now its 10-12 tf RDNA, plus all these new techniques and new versions of the old tech. WE ARE NOT READY.
jackets with pockets
Banned
DLSS utilizes GeForce RTX's Tensor cores. Those are cores designed to run AI tasks.
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Whitecrow
Banned
To be fair, they already failed at real life, thats why they are on Era.
Apollo Helios
Member
I am on REEEEE as well with different username and both my accounts here and there are fairly new and I'm proud to say only ones. I haven't been invited to any secret discords or anything and I don't understand the need for them actually. I was just tired of discussions veering into stupid points once it was getting good, but know I just don't care to argue once I found out about the seriousness of FUD and discord stuff which is sickening.
No need for MS to 'pay them in cheques or anything' inviting them to even and giving swag is all it is needed, since if you realize those events are organized mostly for them and mainly on that purpose, then it is clear that MS is using the newest and frankly this era's marketing tactics, you know stuff like twitter and IG influencers and shit, which I abhor and violently hate. I am actually really proud of Sony marketing belonging to the last decade and sometimes floundering their messaging across their social media. Their PS4 reveal event and surrounding marketing was really great though and too funny to be honest but I always thought it was not their plan but MS almost doing the deed for them to the point that it just made sense to hammer in the final nail in the coffin.
This generation however it is clear how each side is continuing on from their last gen marketing but with different successes, MS probably got better at MVP stuff and marketing even more invisibly while still creating FUD. Sony got worse in their messaging and their marketing plans probably thwarted because of some reasons unknown to us and there is this COVID pandemic. And no it doesn't affect both companies the same if the plans depended on different strategies, MS is better at online event stuff as can be seen from 'This week on Xbox' streams while Sony State of Play streams were hyped too much for their content, if they have kept them in the down low, it would still created the same exposure more slowly with less aggravated and triggered responses -> Just like this Road to PS5 GDC talk. If they have not shouted from the rooftops for the event, like posting on the twitter and creating an expectancy for it, it would still be watched in similar numbers while a lesser initial live shock wave.
Back to topic, I think with recent TLOU 2 and Iron Man VR game release postponement, we should lower our expectancy for another stream/event, which includes a teardown. Though maybe there will be more rapid fire tweets, just like their recent 5 indie game ones and accompanying Blog posts. Also I'm sure the design will be something exotic to accommodate the 'lavish' cooling, and that is based on the design of Dev Kit. Look at Series X dev kit, it is almost exactly the same with One X dev kits, even when DF posted picture people couldn't tell them apart lol.
But look at the design of PS5 dev kit, it is nothing like something ever seen before. And that's why final box will follow suit.
I mean who would design a dev kit as something in unique shape if it doesn't serve a purpose? It costs to design something like that. It costs to pay for the design. It costs to patent that design worldwide (hence the leaks). It costs to manufacture something in that shape, since you have to create the molds of plastic even if there will only be a small amount of produced units. It costs to design a patented cooling solution (look for it, it is online) fit into that unit with all the other components. We are talking about huge man-hours just for the design and production of dev kits that will never reach the final users. Well it can also reflect on and work for the final design, and some of those man-hours will eventually make sense as it will be a trial-run for the final production. So it makes sense if the lessons learned on those dev kit units made in smaller number can work to solve problems for a final design that is at least similar.
No need for MS to 'pay them in cheques or anything' inviting them to even and giving swag is all it is needed, since if you realize those events are organized mostly for them and mainly on that purpose, then it is clear that MS is using the newest and frankly this era's marketing tactics, you know stuff like twitter and IG influencers and shit, which I abhor and violently hate. I am actually really proud of Sony marketing belonging to the last decade and sometimes floundering their messaging across their social media. Their PS4 reveal event and surrounding marketing was really great though and too funny to be honest but I always thought it was not their plan but MS almost doing the deed for them to the point that it just made sense to hammer in the final nail in the coffin.
This generation however it is clear how each side is continuing on from their last gen marketing but with different successes, MS probably got better at MVP stuff and marketing even more invisibly while still creating FUD. Sony got worse in their messaging and their marketing plans probably thwarted because of some reasons unknown to us and there is this COVID pandemic. And no it doesn't affect both companies the same if the plans depended on different strategies, MS is better at online event stuff as can be seen from 'This week on Xbox' streams while Sony State of Play streams were hyped too much for their content, if they have kept them in the down low, it would still created the same exposure more slowly with less aggravated and triggered responses -> Just like this Road to PS5 GDC talk. If they have not shouted from the rooftops for the event, like posting on the twitter and creating an expectancy for it, it would still be watched in similar numbers while a lesser initial live shock wave.
Back to topic, I think with recent TLOU 2 and Iron Man VR game release postponement, we should lower our expectancy for another stream/event, which includes a teardown. Though maybe there will be more rapid fire tweets, just like their recent 5 indie game ones and accompanying Blog posts. Also I'm sure the design will be something exotic to accommodate the 'lavish' cooling, and that is based on the design of Dev Kit. Look at Series X dev kit, it is almost exactly the same with One X dev kits, even when DF posted picture people couldn't tell them apart lol.
But look at the design of PS5 dev kit, it is nothing like something ever seen before. And that's why final box will follow suit.
I mean who would design a dev kit as something in unique shape if it doesn't serve a purpose? It costs to design something like that. It costs to pay for the design. It costs to patent that design worldwide (hence the leaks). It costs to manufacture something in that shape, since you have to create the molds of plastic even if there will only be a small amount of produced units. It costs to design a patented cooling solution (look for it, it is online) fit into that unit with all the other components. We are talking about huge man-hours just for the design and production of dev kits that will never reach the final users. Well it can also reflect on and work for the final design, and some of those man-hours will eventually make sense as it will be a trial-run for the final production. So it makes sense if the lessons learned on those dev kit units made in smaller number can work to solve problems for a final design that is at least similar.
Metroiddarks
Member
Eh not exactly the first console Nintendo which doesn't look to be the most powerful was the Wii before they love the same specifications war, when they came with Wii u they have many problems which actually was competence of Xbox one and PS4:
-The name was so similar than many people didn't see as a new product
-Marketing well not was the best
-In the start Nintendo doesn't have any AAA or AA which can sell itself the console.
-Even with few good games they have were not enough ..... this sound like xbox one the first 3 years in their first party side
-The third parties just see the low sales of the Wii U and retire any new idea of dev something for the platform
Also if you see also the fans of NIntendo wants a powerful machine just looks the reaction from the tech demo of Link fighting against a spider done in Wii U.
In my opinion one of the reason of Nintendo doesn't all this year a Direct with AAA is because they want to know the release of XSX and PS5 because they are competence, I know the
analyst love to say they are not (because almost all the switch user has another console also) but is not like the people has a unlimited time and money always choose a Nintendo
console and the same time other console in the same time.
Many user like me have a switch as second console because I already have the other console years ago and Nintendo knows the new consoles represent a danger for them if its games are
overshadowed by competition.
StreetsofBeige
Gold Member
Even though there will be way more PS5 devs kits out there than my experience, but when I worked at an electronics company and the new product prototypes came from head office, Canada and the US would literally SHARE these prototypes and show them to retailers.
Each new item would have only a couple of each. And when a key sales rep was done with it, they had to ship it back to head office or to the next person (if they worked remote).
Even though these things sell for maybe $50-100 each at a store when it's finally there, the marketing managers would tell the sales reps don't fucking lose them. They even came in a protective suitcase.
The cost to manufacture and design each one of these (they worked too) was $20,000 per item. So if a sales rep had 5 on him to show a buyer, he was carrying secret items worth $100,000.
On the plus side, I never heard of a salesperson losing one. lol
Apollo Helios
Member
Well to be honest I put you on ignore for that for a while at least since your meltdowns sounded like coming from a hardcore xbox fan intent on making fun of PS5 no matter the sound reasons behind those design and architecture decisions. You became unreasonable in an instant when your dreams got crushed hahahah. But I'm happy you came to your senses, decided to trust Cerny and learn the reasons of their decisions. It seems some PS fans now live in fear in these forums so much so that they have to downplay their expectancies, so that after a reveal they can defend their positions like you before the event. There is no reason for that, at least there shouldn't be in these forums. Mods do really work harder and neutrally during these times.
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Gold Member
On a technical level? That's going to be extremely difficult to pull off. Again, it's "just" an SSD. I don't want to sound like I'm downplaying it, but SSDs built off of NAND flash memory interfacing over PCIe memory interconnects have their own way and peculiarities of handling data, and the differences between them and volatile memories like GDDR6 are so vast that you can't directly compare them, so it's not a case if the SSD can "close the gap" with, say, GDDR6, because it's a fundamentally different type of technology memory with different use-cases.
Same way how you can't really compare the SSDs to the GPU CUs; one's a non-volatile storage memory, the other is fine-tuned silicon for running intensive computational code on in real-time. 100% different technologies with different use-cases, you simply can't directly compare them so there's no way to imply one will 'close the gap" on the other. Truthfully you can only really compare one SSD with the other's SSD, since they share the most similarities. But the limitations of NAND memory are going to dictate its use-cases for specific types of things, such as low-priority texture-streaming of assets that don't need frequent modification of the data, don't need bit and byte-level addressability, etc. Or other things like streaming lower-priority audio and text data, for example.
And, essentially, PS5 and XSX are capable of these same things, the PS5 just does so about 2.25x faster going by the SSD specs we currently know. There's still aspects to the SSDs in how they work, and info that's of particular importance (such as non-first read random access speeds, latency numbers on the NAND chips, etc.) we'll probably be waiting a very long time to get.
Now, artistically is a whole different argument. You can have games less sophisticated on a technical level but blow the pants off things with art direction choices. The AMD RT demo for instance; very strong technical stuff on display, but the art direction was terrible. Versus, say, Breath of the Wild. Pretty simple on the technical level, but fantastic artistically speaking (could say this about almost all Nintendo games actually xD).
AMD's stuff can do DLSS as well. In fact IIRC MS's already mentioned using DLSS on XSX, since they are building ML and AI stuff into the system too (since it's also being used in their server blades, at least some of them anyway).
Sony will probably be using something similar to it too but, like VRS, it'll be called a different thing. Kind of like how the Geometry Engine is a rebranding of pre-existing RDNA2 hardware feature. Slight changes here and there, different naming convention, but based on the same thing at its heart.
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Apollo Helios
Member
Can you please put them in spoiler tag?
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ZywyPL
Banned
It works both ways, whenever the so called "insiders" mentioned that PS5 has more TFlops, more RAM, much better custom RT solution, and what's not, we saw the exact same behavior all over the web, except from the opposite camp. So I'm not surprised at all that XB fans are now paying back with the same, especially after all the PS5 rumors turned out not to be true at all.
Omega Supreme Holopsicon
Member
On the pc side, we've seen videos showing little difference between pcie nvme and sata ssds when it comes to games. We don't know why that is. Lack of optimization? Bottlenecks? If it is bottlenecks, Cerny says there are a lot of them, and we don't know how the series x compares on that front regards the ssd i/o.
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SonGoku
Member
I meant 16Gbps chips for PS5 and 14Gbps 2GB chips for Sex since it already has a wider bus.
PS5-> 16GB @512GB/s
SEX-> 20GB @560GB/s
- Status