• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

|OT| Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Speculation/Analysis/Leaks Thread

icerock

Member
Jan 10, 2020
326
2,364
375
DRAM prices must be really absurd because all 3 consoles have cut back on it. Sony went from 18Gbps RAM to 14Gbps. MS went with a weird setup in Series X, when that thing seemed to be originally designed to have 20/24GB of RAM. Now, with Lockhart too it has gone from 12GB to 10GB. We don’t know the setup either, could be 8GB of GDDR6 with 2GB DDR4 for OS.

The concern remains regarding only 7.5GB of it being usable by devs. PS4 allows devs to use 5.5GB and as the years went on, they have complained about being memory restriction. Lockhart only has 2GB more and that thing is being built to run next-gen games for next 6-7 years at 1080p. Same resolution at which most PS4 games ran. The caveat being they were current-gen games designed around a weak CPU/GPU and an ancient storage architecture.

If the Series S is real and released at the same time as Series X, and has the same expected lifetime, do you think that rules out any purely Series X only games?
No chance it happens, I remember few posters pinning their hopes on having an Xbox One X exclusive this gen and it never materialised.
 

zaitsu

Member
May 8, 2020
277
1,471
465
Poland
DRAM prices must be really absurd because all 3 consoles have cut back on it. Sony went from 18Gbps RAM to 14Gbps. MS went with a weird setup in Series X, when that thing seemed to be originally designed to have 20/24GB of RAM. Now, with Lockhart too it has gone from 12GB to 10GB. We don’t know the setup either, could be 8GB of GDDR6 with 2GB DDR4 for OS.

The concern remains regarding only 7.5GB of it being usable by devs. PS4 allows devs to use 5.5GB and as the years went on, they have complained about being memory restriction. Lockhart only has 2GB more and that thing is being built to run next-gen games for next 6-7 years at 1080p. Same resolution at which most PS4 games ran. The caveat being they were current-gen games designed around a weak CPU/GPU and an ancient storage architecture.



No chance it happens, I remember few posters pinning their hopes on having an Xbox One X exclusive this gen and it never materialised.
Dude, ram will be used in much defined way this gen. I will bet my money that is more than enough with technology of streaming assets on fly.
 

icerock

Member
Jan 10, 2020
326
2,364
375
Dude, ram will be used in much defined way this gen. I will bet my money that is more than enough with technology of streaming assets on fly.
No matter how much money Sony/MS spend on I/O and SSD. It can’t fill the void of a RAM. Because latency.

Memory bandwidth is a constraint in both Series X and PS5. It could be even more severe on Lockhart, let’s wait for more details.

Never say never. They could do that though. The "optimized for" marketing seems to be making room for that possibility.
MS seem to be moving in a direction where they want to make their games as accessible as possible, I genuinely don’t see any room for a Series X exclusive.

As for VA, Optimised for Series X. These are all just buzzwords intended to grain traction in marketing. Don’t read too much into it.
 
Last edited:

Tiago07

Member
Dec 31, 2019
212
615
315
To be honest XSX and XSS are best things could happened for playstation users.
Hardware is on point, their marketing is offensive and pricing could be also. It means better pricing for PS5. Without MS on their back this gen they would go higher than they will.



$300 XSS
$400/500 PS5 DE
$500/600 XSX
$500/600 PS5
For me a minimum of $299 to XSS and $349 as max.
PS5 DE - $449
PS5 $500
XSX $500
 

Vae_Victis

Member
Mar 4, 2020
128
637
280
Was this posted?

I did not see such a small amount of RAM coming for Lockhart, assuming the leak is true. CPU aside, where the gulf remains huge, I'm starting to wonder if this thing might even perform worse than Xbox One X (which has 9GB of usable GDDR5 and around 6 TFLOPS) in logic-light, asset-heavy games?

The only way this makes any sense is if Microsoft wants to be REALLY aggressive with pricing, or is going to promote it in some other weird hybrid way we can't see coming yet (so basically as "it's a bit better than Xbox One X for regular gaming, but in also does [...]").
 
Last edited:

zaitsu

Member
May 8, 2020
277
1,471
465
Poland
I did not see such a small amount of RAM coming for Lockhart, assuming the leak is true. CPU aside, where the gulf remains huge, I'm starting to wonder if this thing might even perform worse than Xbox One X (which has 9GB of usable GDDR5 and around 6 TFLOPS) in logic-light, asset-heavy games?

The only way this makes any sense is if Microsoft wants to be REALLY aggressive with pricing, or is going to promote it in some other weird hybrid way we can't see coming yet.
It will outperform one x in every case scenario. GPU performance will be close, cpu 3 times faster, drive 50 times faster will neglect ram difference.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bo_Hazem

M1chl

Gold Member
Dec 25, 2019
3,172
4,443
660
Czech Republic
DRAM prices must be really absurd because all 3 consoles have cut back on it. Sony went from 18Gbps RAM to 14Gbps. MS went with a weird setup in Series X, when that thing seemed to be originally designed to have 20/24GB of RAM. Now, with Lockhart too it has gone from 12GB to 10GB. We don’t know the setup either, could be 8GB of GDDR6 with 2GB DDR4 for OS.

The concern remains regarding only 7.5GB of it being usable by devs. PS4 allows devs to use 5.5GB and as the years went on, they have complained about being memory restriction. Lockhart only has 2GB more and that thing is being built to run next-gen games for next 6-7 years at 1080p. Same resolution at which most PS4 games ran. The caveat being they were current-gen games designed around a weak CPU/GPU and an ancient storage architecture.



No chance it happens, I remember few posters pinning their hopes on having an Xbox One X exclusive this gen and it never materialised.
That's very unlikely, because that would be expensive as fuck, not the mention SoC would be bigger than in XSX due to another memory controller and that's just...no.
 
  • Thoughtful
  • Like
Reactions: B_Boss and Bo_Hazem

T-Cake

Member
May 28, 2019
614
651
350
I did not see such a small amount of RAM coming for Lockhart, assuming the leak is true. CPU aside, where the gulf remains huge, I'm starting to wonder if this thing might even perform worse than Xbox One X (which has 9GB of usable GDDR5 and around 6 TFLOPS) in logic-light, asset-heavy games?
You have to remember RAM will be used much more efficiently now with the SSD. That 7.5GB probably translates into 15-22GB with a 2x-3x improvement in usage.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bo_Hazem
Aug 28, 2019
1,618
2,559
385
Dude, ram will be used in much defined way this gen. I will bet my money that is more than enough with technology of streaming assets on fly.
Yup fast streaming from SSD allows you to use less RAM for cache.

People thinking these systems should have gone up a multiplier on RAM are not taking that into account; and some people are not taking into account the sheer amount of data it would take to constantly need to fill a large amount of RAM. The PS5 in particular is capable of streaming an extremely unrealistic amount of data around.
 
Last edited:

TheContact

Gold Member
Jan 22, 2016
3,701
1,848
730
Do we know if the SSDs will be the same in the two?

Serious question.
They aren't the same.
Even though the Xbox Series X also has a custom SSD, Sony has a proprietary storage solution for the PS5 that will be able to read 5.5 GB in a single second. By comparison, the Xbox Series X's raw throughput is less than half that at 2.4 GBs per second.

edit:
I was talking about XSX vs Lockhart.
 
Last edited:
Mar 27, 2020
3,055
8,205
555
They aren't the same.



I was talking about XSX vs Lockhart.

Nope. The assumption at the moment is similar SSD, and CPU (but apparently the CPU is a little bit lower clocked). And then weaker GPU and less RAM.
I always assumed that the I/O would be an area where they would cut costs due to how expensive it is.

Maybe the size of the drive and not necessarily the speed.

Anyways thanks for the answer.
 
Last edited:

X-Fighter

Member
Jan 10, 2020
1,791
2,512
345
I always assumed that the I/O would be an area where they would cut costs due to how expensive it is.

Maybe the size of the drive and not necessarily the speed.

Anyways thanks for the answer.
Problem of course if you change the I/O you'll have issues in the future if you want to load a lot of assets in your view. They don't have those issues now because there is still the Xbox One, but in 1-2 years that might be different. The same with CPU, they need to be similar if they want to give a similar gaming experience.
 

Bladed Thesis

Member
Jun 7, 2019
1,134
2,772
430
We're all getting amazing next-gen consoles. There's no reason to bicker. Sure, everybody has preferenecs but that shouldn't stop all of us for celebrating that we're getting elite consoles and our favorite developers are competing with each other.

Xbox needs Sony, Sony needs Xbox, we all laugh at Nintendo.

This is the cycle of things.
 
Mar 27, 2020
3,055
8,205
555
Problem of course if you change the I/O you'll have issues in the future if you want to load a lot of assets in your view. They don't have those issues now because there is still the Xbox One, but in 1-2 years that might be different. The same with CPU, they need to be similar if they want to give a similar gaming experience.
It really depends on the price point that they are targeting with Lockhart. Some rumors peg it at 200$. I honestly don't see Microsoft releasing a console with a 1TB SSD at that price unless they want to take a massive loss with it.

I still think Lockhart with a 500GB SSD with the option to expand the storage is what they will do.
 
Last edited:
  • Praise the Sun
  • Like
Reactions: Bo_Hazem and sircaw

Darius87

Member
Jul 16, 2018
669
1,140
365
but that would be the lockhart version... existence of Lockhart has no impact on Series X version of 3rd party games

key thing about lockhart is that it has the same SSD process as SeriesX, if thats the case then devs can mostly just lower quality to a point it runs good enough... just look at games like DOOM eternal on Switch, do you think X1 and PS4 versions suffered for it?
i agree about lowering assets quality but not everything in games made from assets, there's AI, simulation, physics, game logic.. etc. eventually there will be time in next-gen cycle where devs will have take xses into account beyond lowering asset quality, resolution and xsex version will suffer... for example if xses will have lesser CPU and GPU a scene with hundreds of advanced AI agents could be compromised by lowering amount of agents because there isn't not enough resources on CPU on xses the way around would be free CPU with GPGPU tasks but GPU in xses is also weaker less amount of RAM eventually also would be an issue of course we would see this in only proper next-gen titles with advanced technologies which we haven't see this gen because of hw limitations.
Why would the XSX version have a lower resolution due to Lockhart?
it won't i was talking about xses but still devs can't utilize more powerful console to it's fullest because of weaker one.
 

sircaw

Member
Jul 3, 2019
916
3,268
480
A local pond.
We're all getting amazing next-gen consoles. There's no reason to bicker. Sure, everybody has preferenecs but that shouldn't stop all of us for celebrating that we're getting elite consoles and our favorite developers are competing with each other.

Xbox needs Sony, Sony needs Xbox, we all laugh at Nintendo.

This is the cycle of things.
A post i can get behind,

Don't forget the Madbox, is that still a thing.
 
Last edited:

Setsuna Mudou

Member
May 29, 2020
102
495
350
I did not see such a small amount of RAM coming for Lockhart, assuming the leak is true. CPU aside, where the gulf remains huge, I'm starting to wonder if this thing might even perform worse than Xbox One X (which has 9GB of usable GDDR5 and around 6 TFLOPS) in logic-light, asset-heavy games?

The only way this makes any sense is if Microsoft wants to be REALLY aggressive with pricing, or is going to promote it in some other weird hybrid way we can't see coming yet (so basically as "it's a bit better than Xbox One X for regular gaming, but in also does [...]").
Man, on CPU alone it's already worth it. Fuck last gen.
 
Mar 17, 2020
229
690
265
Man, you're serious about your gaming. To me, people who directly know that I own a high-end gaming PC yet I don't play on it feel like it's strange, which is not. It's either that or a workstation, and gaming PC is more than enough and good to have it gaming-ready just in case. It's like buying PS5 instead of PS5DE although I won't stick a disk in it, but just in case. It's a FOMO thing, I guess.

I think there are many who share that mindset, I don't like mixing things up and I'm more than satisfied with PS4/Pro although my PC will have a clear edge in resolution and framerates and overall graphics. Last time a bought good PC back in 2010 before this one I won an extra laptop which I didn't know about, they just called me gave it to me and made pictures into the newspapers. :lollipop_downcast_sweat: They didn't tell me in advance.

Never touched that laptop more than 3 times (checking it out) in 1 year, as I remember, then gave it to a friend. Same with my other work laptop, I don't use it except at school, teaching (no traditional boards at school, only smart projector touch boards and laptops).

For VR, I'll wait for PSVR2 as I'm not satisfied with what I've seen from the graphics shown in PS4/Pro, then play back some of the missed games.

If I ever thought of buying games on PC, I would rather buy from Uplay, EA, or Epic Store and Steam. Xbox store will be for its exclusives.

To me console gaming is much more convenient and stable, with most friends being there, the most important ones.
I also built a PC ( it was highend in 2015). I play some games on it, but it's main purpose is general use. I may upgrade it with new rdna2 or RTX 3000 gpu and increase RAM to 32GB to play the medium and Halo infinite. I already have decent PCi 3 SSD @3.4gb/s.
 
  • Fire
Reactions: Bo_Hazem

Dodkrake

Member
Feb 28, 2020
404
1,018
330
hi guys according to my math.

PS5 disc = 10 TF
PS5 digital = 10 TF
_____________________
20 / 2 = 10 TF




XBOX X = 12 TF
XBOX S = 4 TF
_____________________
16 / 2 = 8 TF

is this true ?
That is true, however I don't see the point of that Math. Assuming similarly capable IO's and CPU's, the Series S will run games designed or the Series X at a lower resolution, that's it.
 

Mobilemofo

Member
Apr 14, 2019
191
181
240
That made me laugh really hard. I've suffered through the storyline of both Gears and Halo. You could summarise both on the back of a cornflake box and still have some space left for ingredients. An average Netflix show has a more complicated plot.
and that's being really fucking generous.. 😅
 
  • LOL
Reactions: Bo_Hazem

X-Fighter

Member
Jan 10, 2020
1,791
2,512
345
Really? I didn't know MS officially announced Lockart with a complete spec sheet.
We were discussing the specs based on The Verge article.

How many games do you think we will we see that push the Series X to its limits beyond native 4k resolution? My guess is very few if any.
At launch or in the generation? Because a lot... Do you think only Sony development studios can push a system to the max or something?
 

NickFire

Member
Mar 12, 2014
7,123
7,071
860
At launch or in the generation? Because a lot... Do you think only Sony development studios can push a system to the max or something?
I'm not doubting how many talented devs there are. I just don't see how a game can offer much beyond a resolution bump on the Series X if it has to work with S too. So while I expect the X to get pushed hard, I just don't expect it to have non-resolution benefits. Maybe single player only games will have more bells and whistles beyond resolution bumps, but that's the extent of my hope. But hopefully you're right.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bo_Hazem

enver

Banned
Jun 16, 2020
17
45
95
Where's the FUD? Consider this:

You build a game for XSX. All is great. It runs smooths, has great AI, large, detailed environments, etc. You then put it on the XSS. It doesn't run as great, and some portions are just downright awful or unplayable.

You optimize. Things are better, but there are some parts of the experience that simply don't hold up as well as desired or even needed.

So, what do you do? Leave it like that, warts and all, downgrade the XSX version to the level where it runs best on both machines, or strip the feature out altogether?

The above is not uncommon in the gaming industry.
??? XSS can play everything exactly the same as XSX, but just at a lower resolution. The games will look all exactly the same, have the same features, modes etc. Devs just needs to lower the resolution and that's it. Its not like XSS and XSX are different machines or different architectures. They are very similar. Just lower the resolution and that's it.
MS perfectly knows how to scale, just look at their BC efforts. Its amazing what they can do.

And also, the best looking nextgen game we have seen so far - flight simulator - is a crossgen game. And one of the best looking games at the sony event was a cross-gen game: Kena. People didn't even believe that it was indeed crossgen.

I think people still dont know how scaling works. lol

To me it all sounds like FUD. MS didn't even announce the console, we didn't even see any XSS vs XSX games, so what's up with all the concern? We even see GAMES ON THE NINTENDO SWITCH and no one said anything. FUCKING CRYSIS is coming to SWITCH! and with that no one says that switch is holding anything back at all. Ridiculous.
 

X-Fighter

Member
Jan 10, 2020
1,791
2,512
345
I'm not doubting how many talented devs there are. I just don't see how a game can offer much beyond a resolution bump on the Series X if it has to work with S too. So while I expect the X to get pushed hard, I just don't expect it to have non-resolution benefits. Maybe single player only games will have more bells and whistles beyond resolution bumps, but that's the extent of my hope. But hopefully you're right.
Then what is the PS5 to XSX? Also just a lower resolution system? What else does it bring to the table then?
 
  • LOL
Reactions: jonnyp

NickFire

Member
Mar 12, 2014
7,123
7,071
860
??? XSS can play everything exactly the same as XSX, but just at a lower resolution. The games will look all exactly the same, have the same features, modes etc. Devs just needs to lower the resolution and that's it. Its not like XSS and XSX are different machines or different architectures. They are very similar. Just lower the resolution and that's it.
MS perfectly knows how to scale, just look at their BC efforts. Its amazing what they can do.
Right now they are still holding out the X as the flagship, and that's not really true if what you are saying is correct in my opinion. Again, just my opinion but it seems very obvious to me that if they go this route, the S is the baseline and they upscale resolution and fps (when possible) from there.

Then what is the PS5 to XSX? Also just a lower resolution system? What else does it bring to the table then?
I'm not sure why you want to bring PS5 up, but I suppose its quite likely that 3rd party devs target the lowest common denominator and PS5 suffers as a result. This does not make me like the S any better.
 
Last edited:
  • Thoughtful
Reactions: Bo_Hazem

X-Fighter

Member
Jan 10, 2020
1,791
2,512
345
I'm not sure why you want to bring PS5 up, but I suppose its quite likely that 3rd party devs target the lowest common denominator and PS5 suffers as a result. This does not make me like the S any better.
Because this is a next-gen topic. I wouldn't worry too much about Lockhart and the effects it will have on next-gen. They'll make games to look as beautiful as possible, and make it run on XSX. They'll then lower the quality only for a little bit to make it run on PS5, and in case of Lockhart the assets will be much smaller (only 1080p instead of 4K) and all will run just fine.
 

NickFire

Member
Mar 12, 2014
7,123
7,071
860
Because this is a next-gen topic. I wouldn't worry too much about Lockhart and the effects it will have on next-gen. They'll make games to look as beautiful as possible, and make it run on XSX. They'll then lower the quality only for a little bit to make it run on PS5, and in case of Lockhart the assets will be much smaller (only 1080p instead of 4K) and all will run just fine.
We can hope I suppose. But I'm not holding my breath. If you can just brute force your way up, it seems like a lot more work (and wasted work getting cut) is involved with optimizing down than up to me. And I really have trouble accepting this as fact when MS doesn't even want to acknowledge the S yet. If it were so simple why are they letting these concerns fester?
 
  • Thoughtful
Reactions: Bo_Hazem

scie

Member
Feb 9, 2020
124
303
240
To be honest XSX and XSS are best things could happened for playstation users.
Hardware is on point, their marketing is offensive and pricing could be also. It means better pricing for PS5. Without MS on their back this gen they would go higher than they will.
[...]
Woah! Would you please stop with the common sense? :messenger_face_screaming: We are still on the internet! ;)
 

skneogaf

Member
Aug 31, 2017
327
309
305
How long does it take pc players to reduce settings from 4k ultra/maximum to work on whatever pc components they have?

I ask as it takes me around 5 minutes.

I have two pc's, one is about as fast as you can buy and one is now classed as middle range and I play games on both depending on which room I'm in.

So if it is that easy for me then surely the 99 out of 100 games that are released on consoles that are 3rd party will just need the same thing doing between the xbox series S and the xbox series X.

Same OS and same drivers etc
 

Neo Blaster

Member
Jan 27, 2020
1,789
7,850
495
How long does it take pc players to reduce settings from 4k ultra/maximum to work on whatever pc components they have?

I ask as it takes me around 5 minutes.

I have two pc's, one is about as fast as you can buy and one is now classed as middle range and I play games on both depending on which room I'm in.

So if it is that easy for me then surely the 99 out of 100 games that are released on consoles that are 3rd party will just need the same thing doing between the xbox series S and the xbox series X.

Same OS and same drivers etc
Oh, the PC scalability argument again...yes, you can scale down resolution/fps/quality settings, but let's see you do the same to AI, physics and storage speed. You can't do that without changing game design, meaning you either create two versions of the game or scrap features.
 

SSfox

Member
Jan 7, 2018
498
2,553
375
To be honest XSX and XSS are best things could happened for playstation users.
Hardware is on point, their marketing is offensive and pricing could be also. It means better pricing for PS5. Without MS on their back this gen they would go higher than they will.



$300 XSS
$400/500 PS5 DE
$500/600 XSX
$500/600 PS5
Don't care it's going to be PS5 for me. Tho i can be wrong but... i don't think any of the consoles will be above 500 bucks

For Xbox will see later and depends on what they'll show on July.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

skneogaf

Member
Aug 31, 2017
327
309
305
Oh, the PC scalability argument again...yes, you can scale down resolution/fps/quality settings, but let's see you do the same to AI, physics and storage speed. You can't do that without changing game design, meaning you either create two versions of the game or scrap features.
I understand what you're saying but pc has pretty much most games on the platform excluding playstation exclusives although some are being ported over now.

All those games which is thousands have to work on the lowest spec pc machines especially as most pc gamers have machines that aren't very high spec's.

I'm quite sure 3rd party game developers will be making a game that will work on everything from low end pc users to high pc users so making games for xbox series s which I've read has the same cpu but slower and an ssd will be fine.

Xbox one/s and ps4 consoles will obviously be the hardest but the majority of games released in the next few years won't be on the same level as the last of us 2 or gears of war 5 etc abdvthey both look absolutely amazing and have great AI, large levels with lots of enemies and stuff going on.

There's 2680 ps4 games according to Wikipedia and how many are ps4 exclusive games? 200 or something like that.

So if ps5 continues with that amount of exclusive games by this point in its life cycle then that's 2480 games that don't need to be made specifically with the ps5 on mind.

I hope ps5 can completely prove me wrong and absolutely every game that comes out on it can not be done on anything but a ps5 as it will mean my ps5 will be used more than my ps4pro and my ps4 which I only use for good exclusive games which I can only count around 10 to 15 out of the 2680 games on it.
 

Neo Blaster

Member
Jan 27, 2020
1,789
7,850
495
I understand what you're saying but pc has pretty much most games on the platform excluding playstation exclusives although some are being ported over now.

All those games which is thousands have to work on the lowest spec pc machines especially as most pc gamers have machines that aren't very high spec's.

I'm quite sure 3rd party game developers will be making a game that will work on everything from low end pc users to high pc users so making games for xbox series s which I've read has the same cpu but slower and an ssd will be fine.

Xbox one/s and ps4 consoles will obviously be the hardest but the majority of games released in the next few years won't be on the same level as the last of us 2 or gears of war 5 etc abdvthey both look absolutely amazing and have great AI, large levels with lots of enemies and stuff going on.

There's 2680 ps4 games according to Wikipedia and how many are ps4 exclusive games? 200 or something like that.

So if ps5 continues with that amount of exclusive games by this point in its life cycle then that's 2480 games that don't need to be made specifically with the ps5 on mind.

I hope ps5 can completely prove me wrong and absolutely every game that comes out on it can not be done on anything but a ps5 as it will mean my ps5 will be used more than my ps4pro and my ps4 which I only use for good exclusive games which I can only count around 10 to 15 out of the 2680 games on it.
What you said just reinforces how current gen consoles (and Lockart if specs are too different from XSX) will hold game design back.
 

skneogaf

Member
Aug 31, 2017
327
309
305
What you said just reinforces how current gen consoles (and Lockart if specs are too different from XSX) will hold game design back.
Game design that will be done anyway due to 95 percent of pc gamers using garbage components.

Steam hardware stats prove this to me

Game design by 3rd party developers isn't going to change until mechanical hard drives are extinct.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Bonsaibäumchen