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Next-Gen PS5 & XSX |OT| Console tEch threaD

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What determines how many threads? What thread are you not running when you hit max power? You obviously can just have it sleep.

Load up all hardware threads with an unproductive and intensive loop in either console and you’ll get a crash or a down-clock.
Game code isn’t anything like this synthetic scenario, just as games on PC are nothing at all like Prime95.
To have a game running as efficiently as a synthetic benchmark without it being intentionally contrived to do so would be unheard of.

The only official word we’ve had from the architect behind it is that both the CPU and GPU stay at their maximum clocks most of the time. That a developer doesn’t need to choose between one or the other. That even with a GPU doing work for a full frame they didn’t see it exceed power draw and reduce clocks.

The variable clock fixed power strategy is about maximising the performance of typical game code without some unpredictable event like an uncapped frame rate on a simple menu screen causing power to spike over the TDP.

It’s about removing that unknown to get the cooling right without having to estimate margins. It’s not about needing to pick and choose.

If a certain part of a game uses a lot of very power hungry instructions that a fixed clock paradigm would have to assume are used sparingly, then you’d run in to trouble.

You’d need to test and profile it on either system. You cannot go above the design TDP on either system. One can just handle code that would otherwise do that more gracefully.

Fixed clocks doesn’t mean unlimited power draw.

A chip using fixed clocks running some synthetic intensive code can easily reach its TDP and halt/throttle.

If, for example, the XSX CPU was lowered to a clock rate so that any synthetic burn-test or benchmark wouldn’t cause it to draw too much power or overheat, they’d be way too under-clocked for productive and sane game code.

The idea that the clocks will be dropping significantly, or that the developers have to choose between CPU or GPU is something Cerny has said doesn’t happen. What other information do we have to go on?
 

Bo_Hazem

Banned
Theoretical based on RDNA1 mumbers, we dont have ROPS yet and all numbers are max potential including TF.

Triangle rasterisation is 4 triangles per cycle.

PS5:
4 x 2.23 GHz ~ 8.92 Billion triangles per second

XSX:
4 x 1.825 GHz - 7.3 Billion triangles per second

Triangle culling rate is twice number triangles rasterised per cycle.

PS5:
8 x 2.23 GHz - 17.84 Billion triangles per second

XSX:
8 x 1.825 GHz - 14.6 Billion triangles per second

Pixel fillrate is with 4 shader arrays with 4 RBs (render backends) each, and each RB outputtting 4 pixels each. So 64 pixels per cycle.

PS5:
64 x 2.23 GHz - 142.72 Billion pixels per second

XSX:
64 x 1.825 GHz - 116.8 Billion pixels per second

Texture fillrate is based on 4 texture units (TMUs) per CU.

PS5:
4 x 36 x 2.23 GHz - 321.12 Billion texels per second

XSX:
4 x 52 x 1.825 GHz - 379.6 Billion texels per second

Raytracing in RDNA2 is alleged to be from modified TMUs.

PS5:
4 x 36 x 2.23 GHz - 321.12 Billion ray intersections per second

XSX:
4 x 52 x 1.825 GHz - 379.6 Billion Ray intersections per second

Now let's make it easy for xbox fans to understand:

Triangle rasterisation is 4 triangles per cycle.

PS5:
4 x 2.23 GHz ~ 8.92 Billion triangles per second

XSX:
4 x 1.825 GHz - 7.3 Billion triangles per second

= PS5 22.2% advantage

Triangle culling rate is twice number triangles rasterised per cycle.

PS5:
8 x 2.23 GHz - 17.84 Billion triangles per second

XSX:
8 x 1.825 GHz - 14.6 Billion triangles per second

= PS5 22.2% advantage

Pixel fillrate is with 4 shader arrays with 4 RBs (render backends) each, and each RB outputtting 4 pixels each. So 64 pixels per cycle.

PS5:
64 x 2.23 GHz - 142.72 Billion pixels per second

XSX:
64 x 1.825 GHz - 116.8 Billion pixels per second

= PS5 22.2% advantage

Texture fillrate is based on 4 texture units (TMUs) per CU.

PS5:
4 x 36 x 2.23 GHz - 321.12 Billion texels per second

XSX:
4 x 52 x 1.825 GHz - 379.6 Billion texels per second

= XSX 18.2% advantage

Raytracing in RDNA2 is alleged to be from modified TMUs.

PS5:
4 x 36 x 2.23 GHz - 321.12 Billion ray intersections per second

XSX:
4 x 52 x 1.825 GHz - 379.6 Billion Ray intersections per second

= XSX 18.2% advantage

PS5 10.28 TF vs XSX 12.15 TF

= XSX 18.2% advantage

PS5 66.6% advantage - 54.6% advantage = PS5 12% more performant overall


46h8et.jpg
 
Now let's make it easy for xbox fans to understand:

Triangle rasterisation is 4 triangles per cycle.

PS5:
4 x 2.23 GHz ~ 8.92 Billion triangles per second

XSX:
4 x 1.825 GHz - 7.3 Billion triangles per second

= PS5 22.2% advantage

Triangle culling rate is twice number triangles rasterised per cycle.

PS5:
8 x 2.23 GHz - 17.84 Billion triangles per second

XSX:
8 x 1.825 GHz - 14.6 Billion triangles per second

= PS5 22.2% advantage

Pixel fillrate is with 4 shader arrays with 4 RBs (render backends) each, and each RB outputtting 4 pixels each. So 64 pixels per cycle.

PS5:
64 x 2.23 GHz - 142.72 Billion pixels per second

XSX:
64 x 1.825 GHz - 116.8 Billion pixels per second

= PS5 22.2% advantage

Texture fillrate is based on 4 texture units (TMUs) per CU.

PS5:
4 x 36 x 2.23 GHz - 321.12 Billion texels per second

XSX:
4 x 52 x 1.825 GHz - 379.6 Billion texels per second

= XSX 18.2% advantage

Raytracing in RDNA2 is alleged to be from modified TMUs.

PS5:
4 x 36 x 2.23 GHz - 321.12 Billion ray intersections per second

XSX:
4 x 52 x 1.825 GHz - 379.6 Billion Ray intersections per second

= XSX 18.2% advantage

PS5 10.28 TF vs XSX 12.15 TF

= XSX 18.2% advantage

PS5 66.6% advantage - 54.6% advantage = PS5 12% more performant overall


46h8et.jpg

cbeafc83ea25eef5044a1dc2f2b652ad.gif


That's a really weird conclusion there.
 

Corndog

Banned
Load up all hardware threads with an unproductive and intensive loop in either console and you’ll get a crash or a down-clock.
Game code isn’t anything like this synthetic scenario, just as games on PC are nothing at all like Prime95.
To have a game running as efficiently as a synthetic benchmark without it being intentionally contrived to do so would be unheard of.

The only official word we’ve had from the architect behind it is that both the CPU and GPU stay at their maximum clocks most of the time. That a developer doesn’t need to choose between one or the other. That even with a GPU doing work for a full frame they didn’t see it exceed power draw and reduce clocks.

The variable clock fixed power strategy is about maximising the performance of typical game code without some unpredictable event like an uncapped frame rate on a simple menu screen causing power to spike over the TDP.

It’s about removing that unknown to get the cooling right without having to estimate margins. It’s not about needing to pick and choose.

If a certain part of a game uses a lot of very power hungry instructions that a fixed clock paradigm would have to assume are used sparingly, then you’d run in to trouble.

You’d need to test and profile it on either system. You cannot go above the design TDP on either system. One can just handle code that would otherwise do that more gracefully.

Fixed clocks doesn’t mean unlimited power draw.

A chip using fixed clocks running some synthetic intensive code can easily reach its TDP and halt/throttle.

If, for example, the XSX CPU was lowered to a clock rate so that any synthetic burn-test or benchmark wouldn’t cause it to draw too much power or overheat, they’d be way too under-clocked for productive and sane game code.

The idea that the clocks will be dropping significantly, or that the developers have to choose between CPU or GPU is something Cerny has said doesn’t happen. What other information do we have to go on?
I disagree whole heartedly. As long as the cooling system is designed for worse case scenario at a fixed clock you will not crash. If that happens thats poor hardware design.

And I will ask this again. How do you determine what gets downclocked? The cpu or gpu. If I was developing a game I would certainly want to be able to control this. I could be wrong but I assume they do determine what to downclock.
If you had a game that was closer to a gpu bottleneck then a cpu bottleneck you would want the gpu to get throttled.

At least that’s how I see it. Maybe in the next few months Sony will release more detailed info on how it works and I will be proven wrong.
 

IntentionalPun

Ask me about my wife's perfect butthole
What determines how many threads? What thread are you not running when you hit max power? You obviously can just have it sleep.

Edit: Does that make sense. In other words how could you decrease your cpu workload unless you are already not maxing out the cpu.

Edit2: I really think the best method is to leave plenty of headroom on the cpu side to the point where you can max out the gpu in all situations.
It's the developer of the code who determines how many parallel threads to start and what processes to start on them. The system doesn't decrease the workload or change any of that, it decreases the frequency on the CPU or GPU to make that workload draw less power in a consistent way across all systems. The developer is in control of the workload, PS5 changes the clocks.

Cerny claims the effect of this is so minimal there is no need for devs to "optimize" around this. Meaning he's confident no-one will feel the need to go "Man the GPU is down-clocking in this scene, let's lighten the CPU load so that the PS5 gives the machine more GPU power."

Is he right? I dunno; he seemed pretty confident.
 
Last edited:

Tqaulity

Member
Inside Xbox Series X Optimized: Call of the Sea

Q: In addition to benefiting from the power and performance of Xbox Series X for quicker load times etc. what Xbox Series X features were you most excited to explore leveraging in the development of Call of the Sea?

A: Without a doubt, benefiting from the power and performance of the new generation is something that everyone is looking for, but it is not the only thing that calls our attention. We believe that some features like Smart Delivery are building the future of gaming by putting the players first and we are happy to be a part of this.

Q: How will these enhancements impact a player’s experience with Call of the Sea?

A: With the Smart Delivery feature you’ll always have access to the best version of the game. Sharing settings and games between different systems. That makes you design the game thinking as a whole and not as something that is tied to a single platform. On the other hand the power and performance of Xbox Series X will allow us to offer the game at beautiful 4K at 60fps, leveraging the rich game environments and making the art really shine.

Q: Why did your development team choose to focus on 4K Resolution, 60FPS and DirectX Raytracing as enhancement areas for Call of the Sea?

A: We are focusing on delivering the most beautiful game possible. Although we have a stylized art style, we are giving it a next-gen look, full of visual effects and movement in the scene. With DirectX Raytracing, we will have the chance to make the island even more present, almost come to life. Players will have the opportunity to enjoy the island’s stunning environments in beautiful 4K, allowing for a greater immersion and an overall better experience.

The power of this new hardware allows us to not have to make compromises between frame rate and resolution. We can finally offer the best of the two worlds to Xbox Series X players!

:messenger_weary: Bore! This is what I've been saying. Every interview or talking point for Xbox Series X is about 4K/60fps. Same old games, just higher resolution and higher framerates. Come on! I mean I'm not saying that those things won't enhance the experience but there has got to be more to next gen than just higher res and faster framerates right?! We've been doing that for decades....CPU and GPUs always get faster. What's new there?

This is the time to talk up your box and hype people on how your new device will change the world. Get people excited about new experiences. Yet, every interview from Xbox team members and third party alike, it's the same ole talk.

Is that really it for Series X? Is that all "next gen" has to offer on Xbox? Higher resolution, reduced latency, faster framerates and load times on the same games we've been playing for more than a decade now?
 

Bo_Hazem

Banned
I came from PC being my only gaming machine whole life to PS4, my best PCMR race buddy is buying his first console when PS5 launches because he throw axe in god of war for 30 minutes straight at my house and played half of first TLOU. He is interested in Sony exclusives because he says he isnt seeing that kind of games on PC. Clearly he isnt intrested in MS franchises

Sounds to me like a smart guy. Keep him close as those are hard to find.
 
You are definitely not the norm. I know of 2 people that own VR headsets (Oculus Quest and Valve Index) in all my circle of friends. Of all the ones that play on PC, only a few have bought a Nintendo Switch, with the ones that have bought a PS4 or Xbox One just left them collecting dust as they bought it early thinking they'd use it and in the end just play on their PCs. And the ones that own desktop PCs also usually own a gaming laptop for on the go gaming for some reason.

I've seen polls online asking PC gamers if Series X and PS5 were interesting enough for them to buy them to play alongside their PCs, and most PC gamers (usually above 85%) had no interest in getting a console, and that's a sentiment I've seen with in my entourage of friends.

PC is about better graphics, but most people don't own high end GPUs, so It's about choice, open platform, mods, etc.

If it was all about the games people would own all platforms, yet it's not the case (definitely isn't mine either and it's not for a lack of money either). I firmly stand by my opinion that PC gamers have close to 0 interest in consoles and that most people that say they can play games there better (like Xbox games and now stuff like Horizon) won't actually be playing those games at higher fidelity than on Xbox One X or PS4 Pro (and now next gen consoles) but at a lower fidelity and honestly they don't care! They prefer the openness of the platform and what it brings to the table.
Defining PC gamers is a bit tricky. Who are those who participated in the poll. Many of who are defined as pc gamers are laptop owners who play Dota and LOL.
Highend PC "mustard rice" 😁 do actually buy consoles for exclusive games because they are actually core gamers.
 
:messenger_weary: Bore! This is what I've been saying. Every interview or talking point for Xbox Series X is about 4K/60fps. Same old games, just higher resolution and higher framerates. Come on! I mean I'm not saying that those things won't enhance the experience but there has got to be more to next gen than just higher res and faster framerates right?! We've been doing that for decades....CPU and GPUs always get faster. What's new there?

This is the time to talk up your box and hype people on how your new device will change the world. Get people excited about new experiences. Yet, every interview from Xbox team members and third party alike, it's the same ole talk.

Is that really it for Series X? Is that all "next gen" has to offer on Xbox? Higher resolution, reduced latency, faster framerates and load times on the same games we've been playing for more than a decade now?
Microsoft already said that they do not care about new generations, they believe in upgrades just like PC. Their strategy for this generation is clear regarding games. They also have game pass and they 100% have to fullfill their promise of games releasing day one on it. You simply cannot blow big budgets on real next gen AAA games just to put it for free on a cheap subscription service.
 

Bo_Hazem

Banned
Rumor | Prodigious PS5 price rumor: Alleged prices for both consoles and every PlayStation 5 accessory; initial launch in Japan supposedly November 14

PS5-accessories-1.jpg


Pseudo price rumors concerning both variants of the PS5 console and all of the related accessories, including the Pulse 3D wireless headset and HD camera, have been posted on Twitter. The same highly spurious source claims the PlayStation 5 will be first launched in Japan on November 14 and will cost ¥49,980 (US$466) for the Blu-ray model.

US$UK£EU€JP¥Global launchJapan launch
PS5 Blu-ray console$499£449€499¥49,980Nov 20Nov 14
PS5 Digital Edition$399£349€399¥44,980Nov 20Nov 14
DualSense controller$59.99£54.99€59.99¥5,980Nov 20Nov 14
DualSense charging station$29.99£24.99€29.99¥3,600Nov 20Nov 14
PS5 HD camera$59.99£54.99€59.99¥5,980Nov 20Nov 14
Pulse 3D headset$159£129€179¥18,000Nov 20Nov 14
PS5 remote control$29.99£24.99€29.99¥3,600Nov 20Nov 14
PS5 "vertical stand"$24.99£16.99€19.99¥2,280Nov 20Nov 14
Marvel's Spider-Man: Miles Morales$39.99£29.99€39.99-Nov 20-


NOTE: Take it with a grain of salt, unless you already suffer from high blood pressure with all the rumors around.

Posted a thread about it:

 
Last edited:

saintjules

Member
:messenger_weary: Bore! This is what I've been saying. Every interview or talking point for Xbox Series X is about 4K/60fps. Same old games, just higher resolution and higher framerates. Come on! I mean I'm not saying that those things won't enhance the experience but there has got to be more to next gen than just higher res and faster framerates right?! We've been doing that for decades....CPU and GPUs always get faster. What's new there?

This is the time to talk up your box and hype people on how your new device will change the world. Get people excited about new experiences. Yet, every interview from Xbox team members and third party alike, it's the same ole talk.

Is that really it for Series X? Is that all "next gen" has to offer on Xbox? Higher resolution, reduced latency, faster framerates and load times on the same games we've been playing for more than a decade now?

Yeah that talk has been running rampant for a while now. Supposedly this game lineup in July will consist of mic drops and should help level the waters for MS.

Although I'm getting both Consoles at their respective launches, if there's not at least 2 exclusive games ready for launch or if their 3rd party support isn't strong out of the gate, it's gonna be a rough start for them I think. I think they've learned from their May show. Up until that point, they looked like they were really prepared.

I went a bit off topic to your comment, but the time for that 4k/60, smart delivery, optimized for Series X stuff MS is boasting about is over. Show us what we're playing this fall.
 

Neo Blaster

Member
Rumor | Prodigious PS5 price rumor: Alleged prices for both consoles and every PlayStation 5 accessory; initial launch in Japan supposedly November 14

PS5-accessories-1.jpg


Pseudo price rumors concerning both variants of the PS5 console and all of the related accessories, including the Pulse 3D wireless headset and HD camera, have been posted on Twitter. The same highly spurious source claims the PlayStation 5 will be first launched in Japan on November 14 and will cost ¥49,980 (US$466) for the Blu-ray model.

US$UK£EU€JP¥Global launchJapan launch
PS5 Blu-ray console$499£449€499¥49,980Nov 20Nov 14
PS5 Digital Edition$399£349€399¥44,980Nov 20Nov 14
DualSense controller$59.99£54.99€59.99¥5,980Nov 20Nov 14
DualSense charging station$29.99£24.99€29.99¥3,600Nov 20Nov 14
PS5 HD camera$59.99£54.99€59.99¥5,980Nov 20Nov 14
Pulse 3D headset$159£129€179¥18,000Nov 20Nov 14
PS5 remote control$29.99£24.99€29.99¥3,600Nov 20Nov 14
PS5 "vertical stand"$24.99£16.99€19.99¥2,280Nov 20Nov 14
Marvel's Spider-Man: Miles Morales$39.99£29.99€39.99-Nov 20-


NOTE: Take it with a grain of salt, unless you already suffer from high blood pressure with all the rumors around.

Posted a thread about it:

I was following till the article said it will be launched on Japan first, then it lost me.
 

saintjules

Member
Rumor | Prodigious PS5 price rumor: Alleged prices for both consoles and every PlayStation 5 accessory; initial launch in Japan supposedly November 14

PS5-accessories-1.jpg


Pseudo price rumors concerning both variants of the PS5 console and all of the related accessories, including the Pulse 3D wireless headset and HD camera, have been posted on Twitter. The same highly spurious source claims the PlayStation 5 will be first launched in Japan on November 14 and will cost ¥49,980 (US$466) for the Blu-ray model.

US$UK£EU€JP¥Global launchJapan launch
PS5 Blu-ray console$499£449€499¥49,980Nov 20Nov 14
PS5 Digital Edition$399£349€399¥44,980Nov 20Nov 14
DualSense controller$59.99£54.99€59.99¥5,980Nov 20Nov 14
DualSense charging station$29.99£24.99€29.99¥3,600Nov 20Nov 14
PS5 HD camera$59.99£54.99€59.99¥5,980Nov 20Nov 14
Pulse 3D headset$159£129€179¥18,000Nov 20Nov 14
PS5 remote control$29.99£24.99€29.99¥3,600Nov 20Nov 14
PS5 "vertical stand"$24.99£16.99€19.99¥2,280Nov 20Nov 14
Marvel's Spider-Man: Miles Morales$39.99£29.99€39.99-Nov 20-


NOTE: Take it with a grain of salt, unless you already suffer from high blood pressure with all the rumors around.

Posted a thread about it:


Interesting that the stand isn't coming with the unit? If real I would figure it would be essential, especially for horizontal users where Console needs to be elevated for better cooling.

 
Last edited:

Bo_Hazem

Banned
I was following till the article said it will be launched on Japan first, then it lost me.

Why not? It's Japanese after all. Last time the did it the wrong way, made Japan the last. I think Japanese consumers felt disrespected in that regard.


It makes more sense, and those Japanese guys are quite extreme and Sony doesn't want them to go Seppuku.

46hduq.jpg
 
Last edited:

Bo_Hazem

Banned
Interesting that the stand isn't coming with the unit? If real I would figure it would be essential, especially for horizontal users where Console needs to be elevated for better cooling.

Doesn't mean it's not included though, just like the pricing of the controllers. You would still need it to be available if you lost yours.
 

Barakov

Member
Now let's make it easy for xbox fans to understand:

Triangle rasterisation is 4 triangles per cycle.

PS5:
4 x 2.23 GHz ~ 8.92 Billion triangles per second

XSX:
4 x 1.825 GHz - 7.3 Billion triangles per second

= PS5 22.2% advantage

Triangle culling rate is twice number triangles rasterised per cycle.

PS5:
8 x 2.23 GHz - 17.84 Billion triangles per second

XSX:
8 x 1.825 GHz - 14.6 Billion triangles per second

= PS5 22.2% advantage

Pixel fillrate is with 4 shader arrays with 4 RBs (render backends) each, and each RB outputtting 4 pixels each. So 64 pixels per cycle.

PS5:
64 x 2.23 GHz - 142.72 Billion pixels per second

XSX:
64 x 1.825 GHz - 116.8 Billion pixels per second

= PS5 22.2% advantage

Texture fillrate is based on 4 texture units (TMUs) per CU.

PS5:
4 x 36 x 2.23 GHz - 321.12 Billion texels per second

XSX:
4 x 52 x 1.825 GHz - 379.6 Billion texels per second

= XSX 18.2% advantage

Raytracing in RDNA2 is alleged to be from modified TMUs.

PS5:
4 x 36 x 2.23 GHz - 321.12 Billion ray intersections per second

XSX:
4 x 52 x 1.825 GHz - 379.6 Billion Ray intersections per second

= XSX 18.2% advantage

PS5 10.28 TF vs XSX 12.15 TF

= XSX 18.2% advantage

PS5 66.6% advantage - 54.6% advantage = PS5 12% more performant overall


46h8et.jpg
The launch day comparisons for 3rd party games are going to be interesting to say the least.
 

Neo Blaster

Member
Why not? It's Japanese after all. Last time the did it the wrong way, made Japan the last. I think Japanese consumers felt disrespected in that regard.


It makes more sense, and those Japanese guys are quite extreme and Sony doesn't want them to go Seppuku.

46hduq.jpg
Japanese market couldn't care less about home consoles, they prefer portable consoles and mobile for quite some time. Why do you think Nintendo Switch is a huge success there, even Sony being a Japanese company too? Unless there's a substantial change in that behavior, I don't see PlayStation launching first in Japan, same day as worldwide at most.
 
Last edited:

Bo_Hazem

Banned
Japanese market couldn't care less about home consoles, they prefer portable consoles and mobile for quite some time. Why do you think Nintendo Switch is a huge success there, even Sony being a Japanese company too? Unless there's a substantial change in that behavior, I don't see PlayStation launching first in Japan, same day as worldwide at most.

Most of those Nintendo owners already own a PS4. Just like many Xbox owners have PS4. Switch is great, but extremely weak for current gen experience, not to mention next gen.
 

oldergamer

Member
Now let's make it easy for xbox fans to understand:

Triangle rasterisation is 4 triangles per cycle.

PS5:
4 x 2.23 GHz ~ 8.92 Billion triangles per second

XSX:
4 x 1.825 GHz - 7.3 Billion triangles per second

= PS5 22.2% advantage

Triangle culling rate is twice number triangles rasterised per cycle.

PS5:
8 x 2.23 GHz - 17.84 Billion triangles per second

XSX:
8 x 1.825 GHz - 14.6 Billion triangles per second

= PS5 22.2% advantage

Pixel fillrate is with 4 shader arrays with 4 RBs (render backends) each, and each RB outputtting 4 pixels each. So 64 pixels per cycle.

PS5:
64 x 2.23 GHz - 142.72 Billion pixels per second

XSX:
64 x 1.825 GHz - 116.8 Billion pixels per second

= PS5 22.2% advantage

Texture fillrate is based on 4 texture units (TMUs) per CU.

PS5:
4 x 36 x 2.23 GHz - 321.12 Billion texels per second

XSX:
4 x 52 x 1.825 GHz - 379.6 Billion texels per second

= XSX 18.2% advantage

Raytracing in RDNA2 is alleged to be from modified TMUs.

PS5:
4 x 36 x 2.23 GHz - 321.12 Billion ray intersections per second

XSX:
4 x 52 x 1.825 GHz - 379.6 Billion Ray intersections per second

= XSX 18.2% advantage

PS5 10.28 TF vs XSX 12.15 TF

= XSX 18.2% advantage

PS5 66.6% advantage - 54.6% advantage = PS5 12% more performant overall


46h8et.jpg
Basing it on RD1 numbers makes no sense. The two chips are not created equal.
 
I expect the PS5/DE to be $499/$399. I Likely won't be a buyer at launch unless Sony can show me that the extra $$ spent on their SSD solution was worth it. The R&C and UR5 demo were great but its still unclear if the sony SSD solution was needed or if the I/O changes along with a lower quality SSD would have been enough.

In the end I don't think that enough titles will actually take advantage or need the additional speed it offers to justify the additional cost day one.
A wireless PSVR2 may pull be back in but I am expecting to sit out the first 18 months of launch then pick up some cheap launch titles .
 
D

Deleted member 775630

Unconfirmed Member
Now let's make it easy for xbox fans to understand:

Triangle rasterisation is 4 triangles per cycle.

PS5:
4 x 2.23 GHz ~ 8.92 Billion triangles per second

XSX:
4 x 1.825 GHz - 7.3 Billion triangles per second

= PS5 22.2% advantage

Triangle culling rate is twice number triangles rasterised per cycle.

PS5:
8 x 2.23 GHz - 17.84 Billion triangles per second

XSX:
8 x 1.825 GHz - 14.6 Billion triangles per second

= PS5 22.2% advantage

Pixel fillrate is with 4 shader arrays with 4 RBs (render backends) each, and each RB outputtting 4 pixels each. So 64 pixels per cycle.

PS5:
64 x 2.23 GHz - 142.72 Billion pixels per second

XSX:
64 x 1.825 GHz - 116.8 Billion pixels per second

= PS5 22.2% advantage

Texture fillrate is based on 4 texture units (TMUs) per CU.

PS5:
4 x 36 x 2.23 GHz - 321.12 Billion texels per second

XSX:
4 x 52 x 1.825 GHz - 379.6 Billion texels per second

= XSX 18.2% advantage

Raytracing in RDNA2 is alleged to be from modified TMUs.

PS5:
4 x 36 x 2.23 GHz - 321.12 Billion ray intersections per second

XSX:
4 x 52 x 1.825 GHz - 379.6 Billion Ray intersections per second

= XSX 18.2% advantage

PS5 10.28 TF vs XSX 12.15 TF

= XSX 18.2% advantage

PS5 66.6% advantage - 54.6% advantage = PS5 12% more performant overall


46h8et.jpg
That conclusion 😂 that's not how it works...
 
D

Deleted member 775630

Unconfirmed Member
I know, but games should back the spec sheets on both systems, otherwise they're just numbers.
Numbers are just numbers... If you ask any Sony fan they'll tell you there is no game more beautiful than TLOU II, running on a less powerful system. The Xbox One was also higher clocked than the PS4 GPU, but we never saw the results of that. Well just have to wait for games, and then everyone can be subjective about what they think looks best :)
 

Brudda26

Member
Numbers are just numbers... If you ask any Sony fan they'll tell you there is no game more beautiful than TLOU II, running on a less powerful system. The Xbox One was also higher clocked than the PS4 GPU, but we never saw the results of that. Well just have to wait for games, and then everyone can be subjective about what they think looks best :)
There was significantly less ACES and ROPS on the XB1 hence why you never saw the benefits of its higher clock
 
The Xbox One was also higher clocked than the PS4 GPU, but we never saw the results of that. Well just have to wait for games, and then everyone can be subjective about what they think looks best

.

Slight mistake there. The Xbox Ones CPU was clocked higher than the PS4s but the PS4s GPU was more powerful than the Xbox Ones. The Xbox One did see some advantages with it's CPU in games like Assassin's Creed Unity. But overall the PS4s GPU allowed it to push more pixels in the majority of multiplats.

Now with that said you're right that we have to wait and see what the games will look like. However the Series X does have a more powerful GPU and a Slightly faster CPU. That alone will give it some advantages. But on the other hand Sonys I/O solution is faster so they will have some advantages in that area.

Anyways it's going to be interesting to see how developers take advantage of these systems.
 
D

Deleted member 775630

Unconfirmed Member
.

Slight mistake there. The Xbox Ones CPU was clocked higher than the PS4s but the PS4s GPU was more powerful than the Xbox Ones. The Xbox One did see some advantages with it's CPU in games like Assassin's Creed Unity. But overall the PS4s GPU allowed it to push more pixels in the majority of multiplats.
I googled it, and I thought it was weird that those clock speeds were the same as the CPU increase 😂 found a better source. The difference in clock speeds was 3Mhz in favor of Xbox One. So basically nothing.
 

Bo_Hazem

Banned
Numbers are just numbers... If you ask any Sony fan they'll tell you there is no game more beautiful than TLOU II, running on a less powerful system. The Xbox One was also higher clocked than the PS4 GPU, but we never saw the results of that. Well just have to wait for games, and then everyone can be subjective about what they think looks best :)

Indeed, as for now, the UE5 gameplay demo has hit the sealing. We can easily expect games at this fidelity on PS5, people seem to forget about the demo. But the more we go into next gen, the better games will look, especially when engines are made to take advantage of either system to the fullest.

Unreal_Engine_5_13.jpg


So this is 100% legit, especially if you zoom in you can notice sqaures/pixel effects of mesh shading/VRS? But zooming 400% means that it's already 8K, not 4K, so no one would do that. The game will look as sharp the more you get closer to objects.

49996329981_772d683c5d_o.png


We should expect further optimization, and engines to be overhauled to take full advantage of the hardware. It's the same with every new gen.
 
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Numbers are just numbers... If you ask any person with working eyes they'll tell you there is no game more beautiful than TLOU II, running on a less powerful system. The Xbox One was also higher clocked than the PS4 GPU, but we never saw the results of that. Well just have to wait for games, and then everyone can be subjective about what they think looks best :)
Fixed that for you :messenger_winking_tongue:
 

SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
Numbers are just numbers... If you ask any Sony fan they'll tell you there is no game more beautiful than TLOU II, running on a less powerful system. The Xbox One was also higher clocked than the PS4 GPU, but we never saw the results of that. Well just have to wait for games, and then everyone can be subjective about what they think looks best :)
Well, i think it's because the difference was far more stark last gen.

In terms of tflops, PS4 had 40% more. The gap this gen is going to be 18%.
RAM Bandwidth was 100 Gbps vs 176 gbps. That's 70%. This gen, only 25%.
CPU gap was pretty much non-existent last gen. 6%. this gen 2%.
SSD is a new addition this gen and Sony seems to have a 120% advantage.

Now I will meet you half way and concede that SSD doesn't seem to be enhancing graphics according to Sony themselves, and seems to be used for loading mostly. But even if we remove the Sony's sole advantage, the rest simply isn't big enough difference to get a TLOU2 like gap between games. Besides, RDR2 was the best looking game of all time before this and it ran at 900p on the Xbox One with the same exact settings. At the end of the day, it will come down to talent next gen. Xbox studios will have to bring their A game and then some. The 18% advantage wont get them anywhere. They need to go and reinvent the wheel. Do new things with animations, A.I, and other gameplay features. TLOU2 being pretty isnt the only reason why people are going gaga over it. The gameplay is far beyond anything this gen. And if 343i and Coalition games has shown anything it's that creating studios from scratch with AAA talent doesnt mean you will end up with anything more than a competent game.

Even in the worst case scenario if the PS5 is an 8 tflops gpu 49% of the time, and the cpu is a 2.8 ghz cpu 49% of the time, you are still looking at 49% more pixels. basically the difference between 1800p's 6 million pixels vs 4kcb's 4.1 million pixels. As DF's Detroit's comparison shows, 4kcb actually looks better than 1800p.

What you want MS to do is aim for 1440p. especially since sony seems to be going for native 4k to jerk off Richard Leadbetter over at Digital Foundry. Use those 12 tflops to generate a 1440p or 4kcb image with twice the visual fidelity of a native 4k game. Just like that you have taken that 18% advantage and turned it into a 118% advantage. Because if they also settle for native 4k, then those 18% gpu resources are not going to make a huge difference. I really hope MS looks at what Hellblade 2 managed to do with an image that is roughly only 60% the budget of a native 4k image, and goes instead for lower res and 30 fps games that really push the medium forward. anyone who wants to play 60 fps can play those games on PC.
 

HawarMiran

Banned
Numbers are just numbers... If you ask any Sony fan they'll tell you there is no game more beautiful than TLOU II, running on a less powerful system. The Xbox One was also higher clocked than the PS4 GPU, but we never saw the results of that. Well just have to wait for games, and then everyone can be subjective about what they think looks best :)
It is not about the sword. It is the master wielding it :messenger_relieved:
 
While I agree with most points that he makes, I don't see the "3D chess move" from Microsoft he's talking about (including Lockhart price in a sub) having that much impact as he expects.
Left a reply to his video not long after the post. This would be Xbox committing sepuku. There's so much risk in people not honoring their contracts they would be losing billions. Would honestly make a lot more sense put all the chips in xcloud, then it can be a real netflix model and no risk of giving out hardware out for free.
 

LED Guy?

Banned
Whoa! Hello guys I’m back once again LOL!!

Been so busy playing The Last of Us 2 on that PS4 Pro, it feels like I’m playing a PS5 game all the time, the graphics/AI/animations are just in a league of their own, the game is so good, it’s another masterpiece from Naughty Dog!

I have seen the new Cyberpunk 2077 trailer, it honestly looks too good for an open-world game, I wonder how it’ll run on base consoles.

Oh yeah and Xbox Lockhart.... that console is gonna hold back gaming at some point in the future and I really don’t like it, I hate it with a passion, what the heck is 7.5 GB RAM with lower-clocked CPU & a 4 TF GPU? What is it gonna do in 2023/2024?!

Just cancel the damn thing already, it’s really sad to see Microsoft trying so hard to compete against PlayStation in the console market yet at the same time, they say that (I’m paraphrasing here): “Sony/Nintendo aren’t our competitors anymore, it’s Amazon/Google”.

I hope it gets cancelled soon.
 
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SlimySnake

Flashless at the Golden Globes
Whoa! Hello guys I’m back once again LOL!!

Been so busy playing The Last of Us 2 on that PS4 Pro, it feels like I’m playing a PS5 game all the time, the graphics/AI/animations are just in a league of their own, the game is so good, it’s another masterpiece from Naughty Dog!

I have seen the new Cyberpunk 2077 trailer, it honestly looks too good for an open-world game, I wonder how it’ll run on base consoles.

Oh yeah and Xbox Lockhart.... that console is gonna hold back gaming at some point in the future and I really don’t like it, I hate it with a passion, what the heck is 7.5 GB RAM with lower-clocked CPU & a 4 TF GPU? What is it gonna do in 2023/2024?!

Just cancel the damn thing already, it’s really sad to see Microsoft trying so hard to compete against PlayStation in the console market yet at the same time, they say that (I’m paraphrasing here): “Sony/Nintendo aren’t our competitors anymore, it’s Amazon/Google”.

I hope it gets cancelled soon.
If ms really cared about competing and offering consumers a great deal, they would've just taken a big loss on their more powerful machine and sold it at the same price as the ps5.

Instead they are flooding the market with an inferior console just to be able to compete. It doesn't matter if it's an 8 year old or a 28 year old, a one trillion dollar company claiming to be a pro consumer company should be able to the loss instead of passing it on to the consumer.
 

Ar¢tos

Member
Interesting that the stand isn't coming with the unit? If real I would figure it would be essential, especially for horizontal users where Console needs to be elevated for better cooling.


The console also comes with a controller and you can buy another one if the first one breaks or you want a 2nd one.
People need to be able to buy replacements, just because they are selling the stand it doesn't mean it doesn't come with one, specially when all the photos of the console in either horizontal or vertical position show it needs a stand.
 

FeiRR

Banned
Left a reply to his video not long after the post. This would be Xbox committing sepuku. There's so much risk in people not honoring their contracts they would be losing billions. Would honestly make a lot more sense put all the chips in xcloud, then it can be a real netflix model and no risk of giving out hardware out for free.
I don't think so. If you sign a contract and don't pay, they'll execute the debt, it's not risky for them.

What I meant, the proposed model may be something new for the US market, I don't know how loans work there. Here I can go to a shop and take any electronic equipment and pay in installments. I can choose for how long, if I want any upfront payment or not, the choices are wide. Interest rates are also much lower than your average CC rate or sometimes are 0% (which of course isn't really true but the cost is hidden inside the price and if you pay cash, you get nothing). This is exactly how I'm going to pay for my PS5 without any problem or big hit on my budget.

Of course there still are people who buy phones with contract and pay up to double for them but those people aren't very smart or just don't care. In fact, mobile providers have also been offering consoles with contracts for years now but I don't know anyone who's got it that way. It's just too expensive.

Another problem for Microsoft would be financing of those deals. I guess in the US and maybe UK it's quite easy to find one or two banks to manage them but with more countries, they'd have to reach tens if not more of them, sign deals, finance them, etc. It's not an easy task. In case of phones, all that is handled by service providers who have a cut in the deal. Who'd do that for Microsoft? Electronic appliance stores can offer their own deals and get a bigger cut from that than while cooperating with Microsoft. So, if this strategy is real, it'd be limited to their primary markets, which is exactly the problem they have right now with lack of brand presence and mindshare. It's a totally different model than when you offer intangible subscription of Game Pass that requires only a website to run.

I read yesterday that Microsoft is closing their retail stores worldwide. It's quite understandable from a high-tech company that they're going online in the current situation but it's exactly the opposite of what the sub strategy would be. When I have to buy another year of Office sub, I never renew it directly through their website as the price is almost double of what I can get from a retailer. They don't have an attractive business model even for that.
 

pasterpl

Member
If ms really cared about competing and offering consumers a great deal, they would've just taken a big loss on their more powerful machine and sold it at the same price as the ps5.

Instead they are flooding the market with an inferior console just to be able to compete. It doesn't matter if it's an 8 year old or a 28 year old, a one trillion dollar company claiming to be a pro consumer company should be able to the loss instead of passing it on to the consumer.

that’s not how business works, otherwise companies that are pro-consumer would be going bust left and right
 
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pasterpl

Member
I don't think so. If you sign a contract and don't pay, they'll execute the debt, it's not risky for them.

What I meant, the proposed model may be something new for the US market, I don't know how loans work there. Here I can go to a shop and take any electronic equipment and pay in installments. I can choose for how long, if I want any upfront payment or not, the choices are wide. Interest rates are also much lower than your average CC rate or sometimes are 0% (which of course isn't really true but the cost is hidden inside the price and if you pay cash, you get nothing). This is exactly how I'm going to pay for my PS5 without any problem or big hit on my budget.

Of course there still are people who buy phones with contract and pay up to double for them but those people aren't very smart or just don't care. In fact, mobile providers have also been offering consoles with contracts for years now but I don't know anyone who's got it that way. It's just too expensive.

Another problem for Microsoft would be financing of those deals. I guess in the US and maybe UK it's quite easy to find one or two banks to manage them but with more countries, they'd have to reach tens if not more of them, sign deals, finance them, etc. It's not an easy task. In case of phones, all that is handled by service providers who have a cut in the deal. Who'd do that for Microsoft? Electronic appliance stores can offer their own deals and get a bigger cut from that than while cooperating with Microsoft. So, if this strategy is real, it'd be limited to their primary markets, which is exactly the problem they have right now with lack of brand presence and mindshare. It's a totally different model than when you offer intangible subscription of Game Pass that requires only a website to run.

I read yesterday that Microsoft is closing their retail stores worldwide. It's quite understandable from a high-tech company that they're going online in the current situation but it's exactly the opposite of what the sub strategy would be. When I have to buy another year of Office sub, I never renew it directly through their website as the price is almost double of what I can get from a retailer. They don't have an attractive business model even for that.

in USA it is amazon and Best Buy that are participating in this, in both cases loans are provided by citizen one, in the UK it’s smyths and game shops offering it, with financing from Klarna. I think it works in 2 ways, there might be recommended financial partner that ms signed the deal with or a retailer might be able to join xb all access with their current financial partner (thus not requiring ms to sign lots of deals with various financial organisations). I am not sure what the situation looks like in other countries, but I think if ms already is selling pc’s on instalment plans In these they might have those type of partners already.
 

FranXico

Member
Re: all the confusion regarding SmartShift.

It's a control system that measures activity on the CPU and GPU to maintain a constant power consumption. Frequency is adjusted slightly for lowering or raising power consumption on either side - note: the relationship between the two is not linear, and suspectible to vary from time to time based on the current workload.

For reference on how feedback control loops work: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PID_controller?wprov=sfla1
(I'm not saying SmartShift uses a PID, that link is a simple generic example of the concept).

Based on what Cerny claims, devkits should have the option to disable the control loop and dictate power quotas that favor either the CPU or GPU.

This is the last post I'll make on the matter.
 

3liteDragon

Member
If the Verge's leaked Lockhart specs are legit, architecture-wise, it's the same as the Series X: Slightly underclocked CPU (But on Zen 2), SSD, 4TF GPU (But on RDNA 2) and GDDR6 RAM. Tbh, I think scaling for Lockhart will be just fine since it's just a resolution difference based on the specs. The ONLY thing that I'm concerned about is the amount of usable RAM (7.5GB) but we'll just have to wait until official info is out. If there's anything to be worried about, it's probably the first two years of the Series X's lifecycle. First-party titles scheduled to come out anywhere from 2020-2022 will have to be designed with the Xbox One consoles in mind, which are architecturally COMPLETELY different from Lockhart and Series X. That will have an impact on game design (for the first two years at least), but how big of an impact will it be? We'll find out next month.
 

silent head

Member
If the Verge's leaked Lockhart specs are legit, architecture-wise, it's the same as the Series X: Slightly underclocked CPU (But on Zen 2), SSD, 4TF GPU (But on RDNA 2) and GDDR6 RAM. Tbh, I think scaling for Lockhart will be just fine since it's just a resolution difference based on the specs. The ONLY thing that I'm concerned about is the amount of usable RAM (7.5GB) but we'll just have to wait until official info is out. If there's anything to be worried about, it's probably the first two years of the Series X's lifecycle. First-party titles scheduled to come out anywhere from 2020-2022 will have to be designed with the Xbox One consoles in mind, which are architecturally COMPLETELY different from Lockhart and Series X. That will have an impact on game design (for the first two years at least), but how big of an impact will it be? We'll find out next month.

Xbox Series X 13.5GB of usable RAM / ULTRA

Xbox Series S 7.5 GB of usable RAM / LOW


KdvMYJe.jpg
 

geordiemp

Member
Now let's make it easy for xbox fans to understand:

Triangle rasterisation is 4 triangles per cycle.

PS5:
4 x 2.23 GHz ~ 8.92 Billion triangles per second

XSX:
4 x 1.825 GHz - 7.3 Billion triangles per second

= PS5 22.2% advantage

Triangle culling rate is twice number triangles rasterised per cycle.

PS5:
8 x 2.23 GHz - 17.84 Billion triangles per second

XSX:
8 x 1.825 GHz - 14.6 Billion triangles per second

= PS5 22.2% advantage

Pixel fillrate is with 4 shader arrays with 4 RBs (render backends) each, and each RB outputtting 4 pixels each. So 64 pixels per cycle.

PS5:
64 x 2.23 GHz - 142.72 Billion pixels per second

XSX:
64 x 1.825 GHz - 116.8 Billion pixels per second

= PS5 22.2% advantage

Texture fillrate is based on 4 texture units (TMUs) per CU.

PS5:
4 x 36 x 2.23 GHz - 321.12 Billion texels per second

XSX:
4 x 52 x 1.825 GHz - 379.6 Billion texels per second

= XSX 18.2% advantage

Raytracing in RDNA2 is alleged to be from modified TMUs.

PS5:
4 x 36 x 2.23 GHz - 321.12 Billion ray intersections per second

XSX:
4 x 52 x 1.825 GHz - 379.6 Billion Ray intersections per second

= XSX 18.2% advantage

PS5 10.28 TF vs XSX 12.15 TF

= XSX 18.2% advantage

PS5 66.6% advantage - 54.6% advantage = PS5 12% more performant overall


46h8et.jpg

Mental gymnastics :messenger_beaming:

 
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